Mary Beth Cahill Calls for Dean to Open His Records...

[flpoljunkie]

http://blog.johnkerry.com/blog/archives/000900.html

A Call to Open Dean's Records

A full and open response to Democratic presidential campaign managers:

Yesterday, Dean presidential campaign manager Joe Trippi called on us all to support full disclosure of donors of third party groups that are running television ads against his candidate. Many of us voted to make full disclosure of donors the law of land. Because of our efforts, we passed McCain Feingold a year ago and tightened all disclosure laws dealing with campaign expenditures, including those of 3rd party groups.

As Democrats, we all agree that full disclosure and transparency is a hallmark of our party. In that spirit and to hold Governor Dean to the same standards that he is imposing on some of us, we call upon Gov. Dean to open up his secretive documents.

The concealment of these records for 10 years doesn't allow voters to make a fully educated decision about who is best equipped to send George Bush back to Texas and restore this nation to its full promise and potential. Democrats are the leaders of openness in our government, and anything less is not worthy of our party.

President Bill Clinton often said that if you make sure voters get all the information, they’d make the right decisions. While Gov. Dean is very fond of reminding voters that they have the power, we'd like to see him trust them with the information to exercise it.

Only Governor Dean has the power to unseal these records. I hope you will join me in calling on Gov. Dean to use the power he has and unseal his governmental records.

Sincerely,

Mary Beth Cahill
( John Kerry campaign manager)

[molly]

1. AMEN!!!

"As Democrats, we all agree that full disclosure and transparency is a hallmark of our party."

[DemOutWest]

4. Oh Oh

Here come the Dean supporters to tell us why he shouldn't. The funny thing is, if it was any other candidate they would be asking for truth. I mean Dean talks the truth!

They should be released. Have a non-partisian investigator go through them and take out the names of any citizens that could be hurt on this. I respect their privacy but not a candidates.

DemOutWest

[Demobrat]

23. That's already been arranged.

A judge will go through everything and decide what shouldn't be made public. Surprised Cahill doesn't know this. Or maybe she does and is just grandstanding?

[maddezmom]

42. he's being sued, it's not like he appointed the judge to go thru

the records. And when do you think the judge will be done reviewing the records?

[Demobrat]

49. Yes. And he decided to use the lawsuit as an opportunity

to get a judge involved. Actually, the lawsuit was very fortuitous for him. It gave him an easy way to get an impartial person involved. Like he said on FOX, there was no way he or his staff could do it without being accused of playing politics. As far as how long it will take, all I know is that it won't be done before the Iowa primary.

Edit: He can't appoint a judge. He's a private citizen, remember?

[TorchTheWitch]

66. like an opportunity to run out the clock

Yes. And he decided to use the lawsuit as an opportunity to get a judge involved. Actually, the lawsuit was very fortuitous for him.

BS. Until the lawsuit, the records would have remained sealed as he refused to open them.

It gave him an easy way to get an impartial person involved.

NOBODY would have gotten involved, impartial or otherwise, if there had been no lawsuit as he refused to open the records himself.

Like he said on FOX, there was no way he or his staff could do it without being accused of playing politics.

Sure there is. He could have had them handed over to an impartial entity to open when he was asked to open them thereby not requiring the need for a lawsuit. He can STILL waive executive privilege and hand them over to an impartial entity.

Edit: He can't appoint a judge. He's a private citizen, remember?

He can still REQUEST an impartial judge or other impartial entity, remember?

<snip>
Responding to the mounting criticism, Dean said this week that he would leave the matter up to the judge in the Judicial Watch lawsuit. Deputy Secretary of State William A. Dalton, whose staff oversees the archives, said a decision could be months away, but he is preparing his staff for the possibility that the court, or Dean himself, will make some documents available sooner.
<end snip>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A57807-2003Dec11?language=printer

<snip>
Fitton, of Judicial Watch, said that Dean is trying to delay the process. Last year, three Vermont newspapers sued for access to Dean's schedules. It took several months for a judge to rule that some should be made public. "It is clearly a stall tactic to say, 'Let the judge decide,' " Fitton said. "Once people realize that, the pressure to open them up himself will increase."
<end snip>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A57807-2003Dec11?language=printer

*Tom Fitton is Judicial Watch President
http://www.judicialwatch.org/3536.shtml

[Cha]

46. grandstanding as much as a campaign

worker of kerry's can grandstand.

[TorchTheWitch]

65. that doesn't wash

A judge will go through everything and decide what shouldn't be made public. Surprised Cahill doesn't know this. Or maybe she does and is just grandstanding?

Dean can still waive executive privilege and make public the records now, judge or no judge. He could have opened them when the issue first came up but had to be sued before he'd do ANYTHING about opening them. It isn't grandstanding, it's pressure to get him to open the damn things before votes are cast.

[Demobrat]

84. It already has.

Suck it up.

[TorchTheWitch]

144. for you maybe

It already has. Suck it up.

What part of "Dean can still waive executive privilege and make public the records now, judge or no judge" are you having difficulty understanding?

[blm]

115. Dean doesn't trust primary voters with his full record.

Too bad. The Koch brothers have already given Rove all their copies of the papers that Dean wants hidden.

Didn't Dean KNOW he was dealing with the BFEE when he was dealing with the Koch brothers on Vermont Yankee?

[TLM]

131. Are all of Kerry's correspondence public, BLM?

[BargainMan]

126. What about Dean' Grades

The thing that scares me about Dean is his grades when compared to Bush's. We have done a good bit of work position Bush as Dumb, and we about to nominate a man who's grades at Yale in similar courses with similar teachers are far below Bush's. As a matter of fact Kerry is in that boat also. Do we have any smart canidates in this party.

[Nazgul35]

127. what are you talking about?

Dean did better than Bush at Yale....

:shrug:

[Andromeda]

134. Are you prepared to provide proof of that?

or are you just talking out of your *ss?

[oasis]

139. Wes Clark is a Rhodes Scholar, but Bargainman, you said he should drop out

of the race. Do you recall your response on the "Clark house party" thread?

[Spazito]

2. Wow

and again, wow!

[dsc]

3. Dear Mary,

Evidently you have never heard of the concept that constituents may expect privacy. Evidently you have no earthly idea why a gay teacher in MS, or a lesbian den mother in Indiana, or a gay teen in Nebraska who dared to thank a man for signing the bill on civil unions and mentioned their homosexuality in doing so might need to keep that private.

Evidently you have no idea why staff members advising a person might wish what they said to remain private. Maybe you don't understand why if people in the Bush WH weren't certain that it would be on the front page tomorrow they might have told Bush not to go to war. Or maybe that some of Johnson's aides would have stood up to him.

Or maybe you are just a lying hypocrite. Because I notice you haven't called on your boss to release that info. I don't see Kerry's letters lying all about. I don't see your memos to him on the net. I choose option two.

[KittyWampus]

5. Dear DSC, Apparently You Don't Realise That Names Are Easily Redacted

And this reasoning has already been exposed as faulty...

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. But I hand it to them that they grasp so tightly to these defenses

despite the disappearing validity.

[dsc]

26. What if the person wrote this?

april 2000

Dear Governor Dean,

I am a great admirer of yours for signing the civil unions bill. As a senior in Acme High I had great difficulty in coming to terms with being gay. I look forward to college where I can be more open. I chose a school in Massachusetts so I can escape Nebraska and maybe be myself. I hope to see you some day in Vermont to thank you in person.

Sincerely Robert A Smith
555 Cornhusker Lane
Lincoln NE, 60000

Or this

Dear Governor Dean

My lover and I are currently teachers in MS. We are here while I get my Masters and then intend to go back north. I would love some information on how to get certified to teach in Vermont and the extent to which you need English teachers. John has loved hockey since he was a kid and would love to coach a team. It would be awesome to have a civil union and be able to be open. Again, thanks so much.

Jeff A Lyons
123 Magnolia Lane
Jackson MS 55555

Now in both letters I assume only names and addys would be blacked out. If these were real people I could easily track them down, if I had some suspicion of who they were to begin with, with a little research. And remember these would become fully public. The issue here isn't would you be able to figure this out if you had no clue who the person was but would you be able to figure it out if it were your son, or your child's teacher who has a picture of Wayne Gretsky on his desk? Actually in the first one if Acme High were small enough I think even we could find out who with some luck.

I notice you ignored my second point that this great scribe to openess hasn't realeased her memos to Kerry.

On edit this doesn't even account for writing style. I wrote an anomymous letter to my college newspaper about why the gay group there was underground (I was closeted then). My roommate, who I actually had told, asked me if I had written it. When I asked him why he thought I had he stated several stylistic reasons why he thought I had. He was a math major BTW not an english lit major. So removing details doesn't necessarily preclude people figuring out the author.

[KittyWampus]

36. Redact- It Was A Clark Word Of The Day

Basically, it means someone goes over a text and makes it ready to be read by the public...

So if someone wrote something that NEEDED TO BE REDACTED to protect their privacy... IT WOULD BE.

[DemOutWest]

50. Private Citizens

will be protected. This has been made clear over and over. A independent body can go through the papers and take the names out of private citizens that could be hurt.

No one wants anyone to be hurt. We want to know what happened while Dean was Governor.

[dsc]

54. and who would these people be?

Evidently a judge, Dean's proposal, isn't good enough. And show me what the letters I made up would look like after being redacted I would like to see that.

[DemOutWest]

56. Not the way he is releasing them. It will take time.

He could hire an independent researcher to start releasing those that do not affect any private citizens.

This is how I would hope they handle your sample letters.

april delete

Dear Governor Dean,

I am a great admirer of yours for signing the civil unions bill. As a senior in Delete High I had great difficulty in coming to terms with being gay. I look forward to college where I can be more open. I chose a school in Massachusetts so I can escape Delete and maybe be myself. I hope to see you some day in Vermont to thank you in person.

Sincerely Delete
Delete
Delete

Or this

Dear Governor Dean

My lover and I are currently teachers in State. We are here while I get my delete and then intend to go back north. I would love some information on how to get certified to teach in Vermont and the extent to which you need delete teachers. delete has loved delete since he was a kid and would love to coach a team. It would be awesome to have a civil union and be able to be open. Again, thanks so much.

all deleted

[TorchTheWitch]

67. good point

So why did Dean make public those types of records by not including them in the ones he put under seal?

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
Also readily available are letters written to and from Dean detailing personal struggles and medical conditions of his constituents.

They include correspondence with a couple about the care of their daughter with Down syndrome and Alzheimer's and a couple who detailed to Dean the medication they take.

Also made public: a 1991 letter to Sheri Arpin of St. Albans, who wrote Dean looking for help with her depression.

Arpin said she was shocked the letter was released, given Dean's claims that he's protecting those who wrote to him. "I figured he read it, sent it through the shredding machine or in a personal file," she said yesterday. "I wish he had. That was a time when I was extremely ill."
<end snip>

[dsc]

106. maybe they made a mistake

The first two, the Altheimers one and the down syndrome I don't consider a problem and don't see why others would (unless your neighbor is both stupid and blind he or she would know you had those condidtions). That leaves one letter. Assuming he gets 10 a day that is a very small error rate.

[TorchTheWitch]

141. *sigh*

The first two, the Altheimers one and the down syndrome I don't consider a problem and don't see why others would (unless your neighbor is both stupid and blind he or she would know you had those condidtions).

So what? We can't tell from this article what information was detailed in the letters. Also, detailed information about what medications a person takes is hardly something that a neighbor can infer by observing a neighbor.

That leaves one letter. Assuming he gets 10 a day that is a very small error rate.

No, that leaves one letter that happened to be mentioned in this article. The only way to count up what such letters are deemed personal and were not put under seal is to actually count the ones that were never sealed. The examples cited in the article are EXAMPLES - they weren't cited as the only ones they had seen.

Did you actually read the article?

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
Dean sealed many of his government files for 10 years - including all his press releases and many speeches, keeping them private until 2013. Previous governors sealed records for six years.

"There are some that are left private... some of the kinds of things might be a letter from a constituent saying, 'Dear governor, I am an HIV, AIDS victim, can you please help me?' Now, those kinds of letters do not belong in the public, and they're not. That's why some records are sealed," Dean said on MSNBC Monday. But the documents obtained by the Herald appear to include the information Dean says he wants protected.

The documents include five security directives from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the days after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks - several are direct correspondence from NRC Chairman Richard A. Meserve to Dean. Most of the papers are marked "not for public disclosure" and threaten civil and criminal penalties.

Also readily available are letters written to and from Dean detailing personal struggles and medical conditions of his constituents.
<end snip>

In case you missed the point, Dean claimed that the reason for sealing certain records was for the privacy of his constituants, and further claims that they aren't available to the public. Except that he sealed documents like press releases and speeches and left open to the public many items that he claimed was the reason for sealing certain documents, including some documents that were marked "not for public disclosure."

[DemOutWest]

11. These are

public papers. Senator Kerry has no sealed records.

Let's go Howard. I would like to see what is in them.

He is a honest straight talking candidate. I keep hearing this from his campaign.

DemOutWest

[dsc]

29. The only sealed records Dean has

are memos and letters that is all. And if you think it is OK for Kerry to keep them private then why can't Dean.

[TorchTheWitch]

64. now that's interesting

The only sealed records Dean has are memos and letters that is all.

And you know this how? We have no idea what's in those sealed records, and neither do you. In fact, it looks like it's already known there is more records sealed then just letters and memos:

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
Dean sealed many of his government files for 10 years - including all his press releases and many speeches, keeping them private until 2013.
<end snip>

And if you think it is OK for Kerry to keep them private then why can't Dean.

Because Dean opened his big mouth and said he sealed them because of information that may be damaging to his campaign.
<snip>
With respect to the basis for Dean's decision to seal his gubernatorial papers, recent press reports have quoted Dean (in an interview with Vermont Public Radio) as stating: "Well, there are future political considerations. We didn't want anything embarrassing appearing in the papers at a critical time in any future endeavor."
<end snip>
http://www.judicialwatch.org/092503_PR.shtml

Because Dean's own attorney who helped to seal the records to begin with said that not only could it be damaging to his campaign but damaging to him if he were to become the president.
<snip>
Dean's Legal Counsel, David Rocchio, also sought a memorandum of understanding (also unprecedented in Vermont) with the Secretary of State that would further seal Dean's records beyond established limits, "In the event Governor Dean is President or a presidential candidate..."
<end snip>
http://www.judicialwatch.org/3518.shtml

[dsc]

123. Do you realize how absurd that is?

Now how can you seal a press release? It is an open document. Frankly I wouldn't give out copies a billion times either.

[TorchTheWitch]

142. even more interesting

Do you realize how absurd that is? Now how can you seal a press release? It is an open document. Frankly I wouldn't give out copies a billion times either.

That's a very good question. Why WOULD someone want to seal a press release? Maybe you should ask Dean that because apparently, he did seal all of them.

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
Dean sealed many of his government files for 10 years - including all his press releases and many speeches, keeping them private until 2013. Previous governors sealed records for six years.
<end snip>

Yep, I would agree that given his recent reasoning for sealing some documents that it's pretty absurd to seal press releases and not seal some personal letters and documents (which he claims should be and were sealed) left unsealed and available to the public.

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. Names of private citizens who

wrote Dean for whatever reason, could easily be removed from his records. He's hiding something.

[dsc]

31. see my response above

It would be very easy for someone knowing the writer of the letter well enough to figure out who it was name or no name.

[Monte Carlo]

51. Dear indeed...

First off all, I don't know how many commands you give your boss, but I can't imagine that Cahill would give Kerry one in public.

If Dean wants official records to be opened, he could show us a gesture of goodwill.

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. Go Mary Beth!

The concealment of these records for 10 years doesn't allow voters to make a fully educated decision about who is best equipped to send George Bush back to Texas and restore this nation to its full promise and potential. Democrats are the leaders of openness in our government, and anything less is not worthy of our party.

Great quote! I couldn't agree more.

[Skwmom]

7. Great response by the Kerry campaign. e/o/m

[TexasPatriot]

24. i have to agree

i'm not saying i agree with the argument - i'm saying i agree that it's a good response from the Kerry camp.

Good to see Kerry's campaign showing some life. Maybe they were just hungry... maybe it was the chicken wings...

[maddezmom]

8. the gloves are really coming off all the campaigns now.

And I agree with the Kerry campaign on this topic. It won't stop me from voting for him in the general election, but I really want to know what is in those records.

[Demobrat]

25. You will.

As soon as the judge says you can.

[molly]

27. Which may be too late unless

the other candidates push the issue.

[Demobrat]

39. To late for what? To use against him?

If that's what you're hanging your hopes on I pity you.

[molly]

128. My hopes? It's never too early for the truth....

many Bush supporters wished that they had known his REAL stance on issues important to them - such as education.

[maddezmom]

38. when do you think the judge will be done reviewing the records?

before or after I have to vote?

[Demobrat]

41. Depends where you are.

Dean was asked on FOX if he would try to push the suit through in time for the Iowa primaries. He said no, because that wouldn't be fair to the people who's privacy is at stake. So if you're in Iowa, it will be after.

[TorchTheWitch]

69. oh poo!

It's nuts that Dean is claiming privacy of his constituants as the reason for not just opening the damn records. Many very private documents were not included under the seal and are already available to the public.

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
Also readily available are letters written to and from Dean detailing personal struggles and medical conditions of his constituents.

They include correspondence with a couple about the care of their daughter with Down syndrome and Alzheimer's and a couple who detailed to Dean the medication they take.

Also made public: a 1991 letter to Sheri Arpin of St. Albans, who wrote Dean looking for help with her depression.

Arpin said she was shocked the letter was released, given Dean's claims that he's protecting those who wrote to him. "I figured he read it, sent it through the shredding machine or in a personal file," she said yesterday. "I wish he had. That was a time when I was extremely ill."
<end snip>

[Demobrat]

86. And those are the exact reasons

he wants to protect other's privacy. You guys really needs to hang your hopes on something other than Dean's files. There's nothing there.

[TorchTheWitch]

143. still doesn't wash

And those are the exact reasons he wants to protect other's privacy.

Oh really? If the privacy of his constituants was what he was worried about when it came to sealing records, why didn't he DO it? The fact remains that he is claiming now that the reason he sealed records was to protect the privacy of his constituants, except there are private documents that were left UNSEALED and available to the public including documents that were marked "not for public disclosure."

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
The documents include five security directives from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the days after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks - several are direct correspondence from NRC Chairman Richard A. Meserve to Dean. Most of the papers are marked "not for public disclosure" and threaten civil and criminal penalties.
<end snip>

You guys really needs to hang your hopes on something other than Dean's files. There's nothing there.

First of all, it's not a matter of "hanging hopes" it's a matter of concern that he sealed records that both him and his attorney who helped seal them are on record as saying they could be damaging to his campaign and possible presidency, coupled with the fact that he's STILL dragging his feet about opening them, coupled with the fact that he is now claiming that the reason for sealing the records was to preserve the privacy of his constituants when there are already records that were not sealed that geopardize the privacy of his constituants.

Second, unless you've gotten a look at the sealed records, you DON'T know there is nothing there. You are HOPING there is nothing there.

[TexasPatriot]

148. what happens if they get opened

and there's all sorts of bad crap in there... and we're halfway through the primary cycle.

Say there are dems who are upset over one thing or another found in those files - and they've already cast votes.

How likely are those voters to vote for Dean in the fall... or will they feel angry?

There's a risk to this strategy that stinks.

[blm]

118. Heheh...good question.

Does Dean trust primary voters with his papers?

Dean hides behind the power of executive privilege INSTEAD of opening up to the people.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

124. Where can I see Kerry's correspondence again?

Thanks in advance.

[Padraig18]

9. I feel the LOVE, flpoljunkie!

:P

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

10. Sure! As soon as Kerry releases his and his wife's tax records...

Also, I'd be interested in having a full disclosure of Skull and Bones membership rites from Kerry, as well as a record of any foreign investment accounts that he and his wife own.

We ALL want open disclosure, don't we??

JB

[DemOutWest]

15. Skull and bones

OMG, get over that. He was a young college student who after Yale, went to Vietnam (not Aspen) and fought in the war.

John Kerry became the man he is today after Yale.

This is not about tax records, it is about revealing papers of the chief executive of a state.

DemOutWest

[molly]

33. The man who would make decisions for the people of

this country should make public the decisions he made affecting the people of his state. He should have nothing to hide unless it is a detrement to his campaign and exposes him as a liar.

[Demobrat]

44. So Skull and Bones is fine

but skiing isn't? OK.

[DemOutWest]

52. OK

it was alow blow. Dean was a young man also and as Senator Kerry says, he will not make judgements on what a young person did during those times.

I do aploigize for the comment. The whole Skull and Bones conspiracy theory just blows me away.

It was about their records as Public Officials. They need to be unsealed.

[oasis]

57. DU progress: Skull 'n Bones is now the last resort of Kerry's detractors.

:-)

[boxster]

17. Not to defend Kerry, but a politician's political record is different

from membership rites or tax records, wouldn't you say?

Dean is running on his record, yet a significant portion of his records are sealed away. Frankly, I don't see why anyone would be terribly surprised that they're being requested.

[TLM]

132. Where can I view Kerry's correspondence and memos?

Can I read the memos and e-mail between Kerry and his staff? Where can I read Kerry's personal correspondence?

[arcane1]

13. Fuck you Mary Beth Cahill

I'm not a Dean fan but this is pissing me off. Nobody in the Kerry camp has a GODDAMNED THING TO SAY about BUSH'S RECORDS???

They've been sealed for THREE YEARS!!!!!

and don't get me started on his sealing of Reagan and Poppy's papers...

of course, none of that matters, since apparently more Dems are worried about beating each other than they are about beating Bush

:grr::mad::grr:

adding for clarity- I think an candidate SHOULD release this info, don't get me wrong. But since BUSH established this practice, and IIRC Dean even once said that he'd release his if George went first. I have NO problem with that. I had assumed that Dean was sealing his to make a point about Bush

[KittyWampus]

16. "Kerry Urges White House To Disclose Enron Talks"

Kerry said the public should be told the details of meetings Cheney's energy task force had with Enron and other energy companies because "we have a right to know as Americans whether or not these companies were indeed the cause of that policy."

got this on a google...

Kerry HAS been after the BFEE and Cheney... where have YOU been?

[arcane1]

20. I've been right here

the subject of this thread is not Enron.

How can the Kerry camp attack Dean for doing something Bush himself is doing, and yet not criticize Bush for doing it? They could easily kill 2 birds if they HAVE to attack the Dem. Just say he's just like Bush, hiding his records... SOMETHING, fer crissake!

[KittyWampus]

30. The Subject Is SEALED RECORDS. Dean's... And You Mentioned Junior's

So I mentioned Cheney's because frankly.... they are more important to the United States than Junior's records from Texas.

And Kerry has spokekn out about them.

[molly]

34. That's a beautiful card!

[Andromeda]

135. Kerry evidentally hasn't had much luck

with that either.

He talks the talk but he doesn't really walk the walk.

[maddezmom]

18. I'm not voting for Bush, but if Dean wins the primary

I will be voting for him. So I'd like to know what the records contain before I cast my vote.

[DemOutWest]

19. Believe me

They will be asking for Bush's records next. I though that George's papers were brought back from Poppy's Library. If they are still sealed, I will agree, we need them released.

DemOut West

[arcane1]

21. next ain't good enough

Bush is the OPPOSITION

[flpoljunkie]

32. Not so fast, my friend. Please read below re Bush's gubernatorial records

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A31328-2003Dec3¬Found=true

Dean said: "I'll unseal mine if he'll unseal his."

Bush's gubernatorial documents are in the custody of the Texas State Library and Archives Commission and most of them are open under Texas public record laws. After Bush's term as governor ended, the documents were sent to his father's presidential library at Texas A&M University. The documents were moved back to archive them.

Does the "straight talking" Dean mean what he says? If so, I am sure he will be releasing his records straight away.

[TLM]

133. The same is true for Dean...

"most of them are open under Texas public record laws."

In VT most of Dean's records are open as well. The fact is that what is sealed is the personal lettters and memos.

And can you please point me to where I can read the personal letters and staff memos of any of the other canddiates?

[TorchTheWitch]

145. no so

In VT most of Dean's records are open as well. The fact is that what is sealed is the personal lettters and memos.

Where do you get your facts? Dean? The FACT is that there are personal letters and records that were left unsealed and available to the public including records that were marked "not for public disclosure"...

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
The documents include five security directives from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the days after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks - several are direct correspondence from NRC Chairman Richard A. Meserve to Dean. Most of the papers are marked "not for public disclosure" and threaten civil and criminal penalties.

Also readily available are letters written to and from Dean detailing personal struggles and medical conditions of his constituents.

They include correspondence with a couple about the care of their daughter with Down syndrome and Alzheimer's and a couple who detailed to Dean the medication they take.
<end snip>


Also, Dean sealed records that are NOT personal letters and memos...

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
Dean sealed many of his government files for 10 years - including all his press releases and many speeches, keeping them private until 2013. Previous governors sealed records for six years.
<end snip>

[Monte Carlo]

47. We're all Democrats; we're all friends.

While we're waiting for Bush to release his records, shall we not have Dean, a fellow Democrat, do what he has the rest of us do?

[elsiesummers]

62. While I'm not irritated with Kerry,

and I am absolutely not a Dean fan, as a Democrat and ABB voter, Dean should not reveal his records.

I don't need to see records to know I don't like Dean but to also know he is better than Bush.

Remember, Gore went after Dukakis on Willie Horton before Bush Senior ever did.

We don't need to give Karl Rove one bit of ammunition against any potential Dem candidate.

Bush has set the ground rules of not releasing records (his military missing year records and the Cheney Energy papers) and I am tired of seeing Dems cave in to the greater good and end up on an unlevel playing field.

Remember when Gore said he would not go personally negative on Bush? God I screamed at Al Gore that night. Because at the very moment he became the bigger man he conceded the election (yeah I know Gore won but it was still within stealing distance).

This is why Dean, or any other Dem, cannot reveal any records unnecessarily. It's all about winning.

[mrgorth]

95. You go Arcane!

booooooyyyyeeee

[KaraokeKarlton]

22. Dean already said he's letting a judge decide what should be opened

and what shouldn't. Mary Beth should watch the news. I guess being that she's part of the Kerry campaign she doesn't like watching the news with her candidate sinking like the Titanic. :shrug:

[DemOutWest]

35. Which will

take months. Dean can release them within a week and have someone take the names out of citizens.

That is what they are asking.

As the poster above stated, Kerry has been asking for the papers on Bush, Cheaney, and Enron.

You have all been here the past few days blasting the Kerry campaign (wrongly I might add) about the Osama/Dean ads. Any apologys?

I keep hearing that Dean is an outsider who is trying to back the government for the people. This smacks of a typical politician and he is hiding something from the people he trying to take the governemnt back for.

Until a few weeks ago, I was undecided on who I should support. I thought about Dean but all of these inconsistent statements and not being forthcoming on his records made me look elsewhere. Glad I did.

[KaraokeKarlton]

40. No, "we" haven't all been doing any such thing

I have said that I think if Gephardt and Kerry don't speak out against the ads due to their past and present affiliations with those involved in airing them then it's going to cause a lot of people to view them as "guilty by associaition". That's my opinion of how they will be viewed, nothing more, nothing less.

Did you know that Kerry was just on network news. Did you know they have him on tape saying he doesn't want to be president?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

78. Perhaps how you feel right now will help you understand

how Dean supporters feel when Kerry and many of his supporters do the exact same thing to Howard Dean. Why, may I ask, is this tactic acceptable for your candidate and his supporters, yet when a Dean supporter resorts to the same tactic it's wrong?

That, sir, is exactly why I choose to employ that tactic. However, the difference between myself and Mr. Kerry and some of his supporters here is that I openly admit that I'm doing it. I also have to say that as long as there are Kerry supporters here who post threads like "Dean likes white-only golf?" I will be making factually correct posts like the one you are angry over. If it bothers you that much you will make as much an effort at chastizing your fellow Kerry supporters as you have chastizing me.

[Castilleja]

79. Good point, and well said.

:thumbsup:

[flpoljunkie]

80. Employing dishonest tactics is NEVER the answer, KaraokeKarlton.

And I would assume that the Dean campaign would feel likewise.

[KaraokeKarlton]

85. I'm not being dishonest at all

I haven't said anything that wasn't factually true. I am admittedly critical of Kerry and own the fact that I tend to lampoon him at every opportunity. You can't get much more honest than that. There is a bit of a difference between myself and the anti-Dean Kerry supporters on this site. I have, myself, repeatedly proven many of the claims made about Dean to be false and not factually accurate. One of the recent favorites is the ridiculous claim that Dean brought captive insurance to Vermont and that he intentionally gave Enron a tax cut. I showed that the industry came to Vermont long before Dean was governor, and that the tax cut was in effect over 2 years before Enron set up a captive in Vermont. No one knew they were what they are in 1995. Some Kerry supporters who actually posted on previous threads keep reposting this particular nonsense over and over again. I'm sure you've seen it too.

I'm not posting lies about Kerry with my sarcastic remarks. ABC news DID show Kerry saying he didn't want to be president. I said later that it wasn't a recent clip, but that he did say that. How is comments Kerry said prior to him running for president any different than comments Dean made prior to him running being discussed or pointed out? I see no difference.

Again, I don't recall seeing you criticize your fellow Kerry supporters for the behavior many of them regularly display. Perhaps you should start there first.

[DemOutWest]

93. I'm sorry

the self righteous Dean supporters who claim that people are picking on them and everyone is lying about their candidate, have only made me decide to fight against Dean. If you seriously believe this is the next president, well, good luck.

I'd support Dean if I didn't have to read the smug remarks and comments made by his supporters.

I have never attacked Dean, I have asked questions of his policies, past and present.

Open the records Governor Dean!

Tell us your real position on GunControl and the NRA!

Why is the Environment community against Dean? (See other thread on this)

Why was Saddam a menace in October of 2002 and not now.

Why did he stand up and fight with Newt in the 90's?

Spin it anyway you want, I want the truth.


I saw no comment about it only being a clip. Maybe youi made it after I got deleted for telling the truth on your comments. I apoligized for a comment I made about Dean and skiing. It was alow blow.

[KaraokeKarlton]

100. Most of the things you're concerned about aren't even true

And those things that have a tiny bit of truth are really severely mangled to the point where they don't even resemble the truth.

Dean is a very good guy, a great politician and he was a great governor. A lot of the things you cited are from criticisms made against Dean by one of the opposing parties in Vermont. The rest of it is from butchered comments Dean made that don't tell you the entire story...or show you the entire comment. I'll come back to this later on and address those concerns you have. But for now, I will tell you that it's pretty much nonsense, and it's really unfortunate that you've fallen for it. I promise to get back to you on those things.

[KaraokeKarlton]

130. Sorry it took me so long

My neighbor was putting a new starter on my car and he just got finished a little bit ago (after locking my ONLY set of keys in my car with the interior light turned on...got in after an hour! lol)

Okay, here is my response to the issues you brought up:

Open the records Governor Dean!

He's letting a judge decide which records get opened and which ones don't. Sure, he could weed through them all himself and decide what has to stay sealed to protect private citizens (AIDS patients, etc from the civil unions battle that wrote to him). If he does it himself or his campain does it then people will be able to accuse him of hiding something. If a judge does it, then Dean will have no control what is unsealed and what isn't...then no one can accuse him of any impropriety.

Tell us your real position on GunControl and the NRA!

He supports current federal gun control, would renew the assualt weapons ban and would close the gun show loophole. Beyond that, let states determined if they need more. He's sensitive to the rights of hunters because he's spent a lot of years in a state where hunting is a huge part of life. As far as I know he has only actually worked with the NRA on one issue, which I doubt you would take issue with. Dean protected hundreds of tousands of Vermont acres from every being devloped. The NRA is actually on the same page as Democrats on conservation and protecting the environment. Many people either forget that or fail to realize it. With the support of the NRA, Dean managed to protect more of Vermont's undeveloped land than all other governors before him combined. That's quite an achievement. The NRA did endorse Dean over his Republican candidates because he wasn't hostile towards guns and he was good on the environment. Vermonters would not elect any candidate who would go against our views on guns. Dean is neither pro gun or anti-gun...he's simply gun-neutral and fair.

Why is the Environment community against Dean? (See other thread on this)

They're listening to VERY radical environmentalists who are affiliated with a Vermont third party political group. There has been a lot of grossly exaggerated and inaccurate rhetoric that has been thrown out there during state elections. That's all it is, really...campaign rhetoric that isn't very accurate. Dean isn't as good on the environment as some of the candidates might be, but he's still good on it, and certainly nowhere near as bad as the Vermont Progressive Party would have people believe.

Why was Saddam a menace in October of 2002 and not now.

Part of that comment was left out of the quote circulating. Dean did say that he believed Saddam was a threat to the US and our allies. The very next sentence he said that he didn't believe he was an IMMINENT threat. That part of the comment was conveniently left out. When you look at the quote in it's full context, it is consistent to what he's been saying all along.

Why did he stand up and fight with Newt in the 90's?

This one is just plain silly. Dean has never been an enemy of Medicare or the elderly. From the time he first entered politics he's been a real champion of health care for everyone. He made some negative comments about Medicare out of frustration with how horribly it's run and how the eligibility rules are bad, causing many problems. You can search google on Howard Dean Congressional testimony on the aging and disabled and find several testimonials he gave to Congress before he was running for president. He's been fighting to make Medicare better for many years.


There you go...as promised. If you know the truth about Dean instead of automatically believe negative things you hear about him, he's a great candidate who is about as fair, balanced and best servant of the people that you'll ever find.

[Andromeda]

136. The Kerry campaign...

doesn't feel that the same rules apply to them judging from the snotty remarks about Dean, himself, and the thoughtless remarks I'm reading on this thread about his supporters.

Before you start accusing somebody of dishonest tactics you'd better look in your own backyard.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemOutWest]

92. Honest?

Where? Did you come back and apoligize for the reckless coment about Senator Kerry on ABC.

No. You left it out there hoping it would make people think less of Senator Kerry. A man who has done more for this country in his adult life than all of us on here combined and more than almost every other major candidate except maybe Gephardt and Clark.

I want the truth, not politics.

DemOut wEst

[LuminousX]

107. The minute Dean's campaign touches those records

someone will cry out that he is cherry picking what is being released and isn't being thorough.

A third party is the best option for everyone involved.

[flpoljunkie]

37. Very unlikely judge could finish BEFORE the Iowa & NH primaries...

How convenient for the Doctor.

[John_H]

77. Which is a typical politico response fooling only bandwagon jumpers.

[alcuno]

28. I guess I'd need to know what kind of records get sealed in the 1st place.

Are they letters that Vermont citizens have written him? Is there correspondence between him and his lawyers? What kind of stuff is it? Some of that is personal and I don't need to know it. Furthermore, letters that citizens have written to their governor may contain stuff that these people don't want me to know about. What about personal privacy? Do you just give it up when you write to the governor?

[Cha]

43. grandstanding as much as campaign

worker of kerry's can grandstand.

[Monte Carlo]

45. Thank you, Mary Beth.

If Dean and Trippi insists that we be forthcoming with our dealings, let us be forthcoming.

[oasis]

63. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. isn't she the one who tried to smear Dean off the record?

Sending Karl Rove like e-mails to reporters and expecting them to use the gossip as "background"? Slimey thing isn't she?

[Monte Carlo]

53. Howard Kurtz said that in his article, yes.

Reporters get thousands of e-mails. Let's not make this more than it is.

[DemOutWest]

55. All campaign issues aside

As an American, I believe the records should be unsealed. I ask it of Bush, of the Governor of Utah (now EPA head) and especially of a canidate who is running for president.

This is not about pro-dean, anti-dean, Pro-Kerry, anti-Kerry. It's about the rights of Americans to understand who they might be or might not be voting for.

That is our right as Free thinking Democrats and Americans.

Why is this a fight. I think it is reasonable to ask. If there are public papers that Senator Kerry is sealing, I would ask him to release them just as I would any other candidate.

Peace Out

[flpoljunkie]

58. see Post#32. Bush's gubernatorial records have been unsealed.

Read Washington Post article on this very subject of Dean's sealed records.

[LuminousX]

108. Unsealed, nearly impossible to get

They are set up under rules that prevent fishing trips through his records. I guess Dean could do that. Simply state that if somone wants something they have to know exactly what they are asking for.

[goodhue]

110. procedure

But that is how it works under any data practices system. Retrieving public records is always burdensome and subject to redaction. Nothing unique about the Texas procedure. FYI, the law in vermont about requesting public records in Vermont Statute Section 318.

PROCEDURE (1 V.S.A. § 318)
Upon request, the custodian of a public record shall promptly produce the record unless:

(1) it is in active use, or in storage, or unusual circumstances make a delay necessary before the material is available;
(2) the custodian considers the record exempt from inspection;
(3) the record does not exist under the name given or any other name known by the custodian.
The custodian shall certify in writing his or her reasons for denying or delaying access to the record.

http://www.vlct.org/local/publicrecords.htm

[flpoljunkie]

59. No, she was not.

.

[sandnsea]

68. Reporter outed Lieberman, Edwards & Gep too

Sending background in emails is apparently something that every campaign does. Funny the reporter conveniently doesn't mention Dean's campaign.

[LuminousX]

61. LOL@Mary

Talk to the judge overseeing the lawsuit.

[TorchTheWitch]

70. what for?

Why talk to the judge when Dean can still open the records himself?

[LuminousX]

74. Because the lawsuit is already in action

And no lawyer would ever advise his/her client to hand over something that isn't necessary. Let the judge and attorney general of Vermont make that decision. Dean has washed his hands of it and is busy winning the nomination. Perhaps Kerry should realize the point of all of this and try to win. Though looking at recent polls, he is a longshot and isn't even worth the time and energy to consider anymore. I'm beginning to think he is the true Vanity Candidate in this race.

The hopes that talking this up will make people think there is something devastating in his records - maybe Kerry is salivating at the hopes of a Governor Ryan type scandal. It isn't going to happen. The worst that is going to be found is notes and letters about how he was dealing with the pressures of the Vermont progressives and the pressures of balancing the budget. Nothing that will decide an election, but a lot that will stir up a bees nest in Vermont for the next few years. I don't live there so I don't care. On with the show!

[TorchTheWitch]

146. how interesting

Because the lawsuit is already in action And no lawyer would ever advise his/her client to hand over something that isn't necessary.

Particularly an attorney who helped seal the records because they could be damaging to Dean as a presidential candidate or as president...

http://www.judicialwatch.org/3518.shtml
<snip>
Dean’s Legal Counsel, David Rocchio, also sought a memorandum of understanding (also unprecedented in Vermont) with the Secretary of State that would further seal Dean’s records beyond established limits, "In the event Governor Dean is President or a presidential candidate..."
<end snip>

Let the judge and attorney general of Vermont make that decision. Dean has washed his hands of it and is busy winning the nomination.

Oh, I see, so Dean washes his hands of it because opening the records his own damn self and clearing his name doesn't allow him to run out the clock like dumping it into the lap of a judge does...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A57807-2003Dec11?language=printer
<snip>
Fitton, of Judicial Watch, said that Dean is trying to delay the process. Last year, three Vermont newspapers sued for access to Dean's schedules. It took several months for a judge to rule that some should be made public. "It is clearly a stall tactic to say, 'Let the judge decide,' " Fitton said. "Once people realize that, the pressure to open them up himself will increase."
<end snip>
*Tom Fitton is Judicial Watch President
http://www.judicialwatch.org/3536.shtml

Perhaps Kerry should realize the point of all of this and try to win. Though looking at recent polls, he is a longshot and isn't even worth the time and energy to consider anymore. I'm beginning to think he is the true Vanity Candidate in this race.

Perhaps Dean (or his supporters?) needs to realize that the point of all this is to see if Dean is, in fact, hiding something detrimental in the sealed records before anyone casts their vote... this is a difficult concept apparently among some Dean supporters here. Personally, I really don't care about Kerry's standing in the polls seeing as I'm not planning on casting a vote for him in the primary anyway.

The hopes that talking this up will make people think there is something devastating in his records - maybe Kerry is salivating at the hopes of a Governor Ryan type scandal. It isn't going to happen.

How do you know there is nothing devastating in the records when YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S IN THEM?

The worst that is going to be found is notes and letters about how he was dealing with the pressures of the Vermont progressives and the pressures of balancing the budget. Nothing that will decide an election, but a lot that will stir up a bees nest in Vermont for the next few years. I don't live there so I don't care. On with the show!

Once again... How do you know there is nothing devastating in the records when YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S IN THEM? It's already been found that there is more then just personal letters and memos in the sealed records...

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/national.bg?articleid=117
<snip>
Dean sealed many of his government files for 10 years - including all his press releases and many speeches, keeping them private until 2013. Previous governors sealed records for six years.
<end snip>

If Dean is certain there is nothing in the sealed records that could be damaging to his campaign then he'd be the FIRST ONE to open them the hell up and end the controversy. The ongoing controversy combined with the lawsuit is hurting his campaign, yet he's not doing anything to get the records open his own damn self before any votes are cast. Frankly, he's taken MORE time away from his own campaign by being uncooperative on this issue then if he had just waived executive privilege and allowed them to be open without all the big fuss and without a lawsuit. The longer he delays on this, the uglier the subject is going to get.

[goodhue]

147. delays

If he delays until if and when he secures the nomination, he should be home free. His ties to energy utilities will be of little consequence in the general election (although it will somewhat hamper his credibility in attacking Bush/Cheney on their cozy relationship with the energy sector). Litigation is a great smoke screen.

[Romberry]

71. Kerry is done and so is Mary Beth

Dean has answered this several times. A judge and the attorney general of Vermont will respond to the JW lawsuit and decide which records deserve protection in the interests of privacy of constituents and the state of Vermont and which to release.

Woulda been nice if John and Mary Beth shown a little of this spine in dealing with Bush.

[oasis]

73. Kerry is far from done. Slow but steady wins this race.

[LuminousX]

75. When can we expect Kerry's big burst of activity?

[sandnsea]

76. Is he your #2?

I thought you posted that somewhere. Curious to know.

[LuminousX]

83. Actually he is

He was my #1, I then slid into the Dean column, but would, without any hesitation vote for Kerry in a heartbeat.

I'm one of the people though, who felt exiled from his campaign early on because he was taking a course that seemed different than what I expected. Right now I am more shocked and chagrined that his support on DU is eclipsed by Clark. I really wanted this to come down to a Kerry - Dean election so I could finally be in a win - win situation.

[helleborient]

81. Slow but steady falling in polls...4% nationally in CBS News latest...

Where's the uptick?

[flpoljunkie]

82. Wasn't Clinton at the same 4% in polls in 1996?

I believe he was.

[helleborient]

109. Bill Clinton was running for re-election in 1996...

Oops!

[helleborient]

111. In December of 1991, Bill Clinton was at 6% according to Gallup...

This was the status:

Mario Cuomo - 33%
Jerry Brown - 15
Douglas Wilder - 9
Bob Kerrey - 8
Tom Harkin - 7
Bill Clinton - 6
Paul Tsongas - 4
Undecided/Others - 18

One big benefit for Bill Clinton was that the assumed frontrunner chose to never run.

Another major difference - Bill Clinton was never at 20-some % nationally and then imploded the way Kerry has.

So...if Kerry supporters want to believe the fantasy somehow that Kerry's campaign is like Bill Clinton's in Dec. of 1991...so be it.

[flpoljunkie]

117. My bad. Hillary Clinton says Clinton was at 4% in December, 1991.

"I remember back in December of 1991 when my husband was I don't think above 4 percent in the polls," said Clinton, speaking after a housing conference in Manhattan. "Through the months of the primaries and the caucuses, there was a hard-fought battle and it finally ended in June of 1992 when Bill clinched the nomination. He was running third behind President Bush and Ross Perot. So I want to see how the process plays out."
…
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/politics/ny-nyhillvr3578212dec10,0,5762806.story

[Andromeda]

138. Sharpton has polled higher...

than Kerry in some polls. Kerry is no higher than third and fourth in a lot of the polls released lately. He's hanging in there though---gotta give him credit.

Yep. Slow and steady as she goes.

[quaker bill]

72. Good for her.

However, it is not relevant. The important part of Dean's record in Vermont is already open to public scrutiny. Any significant action he took is well documented from other sources in the public record. Any signiciant comment he made can probably be found with a lexis/nexis search.

This is a strawman issue fostered by a desperate candidate that reeks of a Kenneth Starr/Whitewater witchhunt. But then repugnican sleaze tactics seem to be the flavor of the month in certain quarters.

[Larkspur]

87. If Kerry would go after Bush with the same vengence he is going after Dean

Bush's poll numbers could be in the single digits, but no, Kerry's campaign is foundering due to his ineptitude and arrogance, so like a drowning man, he has to try to take down the one who is best to rescue the Democratic Party and this country from Bush's cruel agenda.

I'm glad Dean is letting an independent judge go through his records and that it will take a while to sort throught them. Bush's records are not available to the public. In theory they are, but as the Texas archivist said, that is a deception. It will take 3 years to catalog Bush's gubernatorial records and after that is done they will be shipped to Bush's daddy's library, where federal rules apply.

[flpoljunkie]

88. Link, please. Records are open acc'd to Wash Post article linked below.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A31328-2003Dec3¬Found=true

Bush's gubernatorial documents are in the custody of the Texas State Library and Archives Commission and most of them are open under Texas public record laws. After Bush's term as governor ended, the documents were sent to his father's presidential library at Texas A&M University. The documents were moved back to archive them.

[NashVegas]

97. The MYTH of Bush's Open Records

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=825181




http://www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/tslac/40078/tsl-40078.html

SNIP..."Restrictions on Access
Records in process: Because of the possibility that portions of these records fall under Public Information Act exceptions, an archivist must review these records before they can be accessed for research. The records may be requested for research under the provisions of the Public Information Act (V.T.C.A., Government Code, Chapter 552). The researcher may request an interview with an archivist or submit a request by mail, fax, or email including enough description and detail about the information requested to enable the archivist to accurately identify and locate the information requested. If our review reveals information that may be excepted by the Public Information Act, we are obligated to seek an open records decision from the Attorney General on whether the records can be released. The Public Information Act allows the Archives ten working days after receiving a request to make this determination. The Attorney General has 45 working days to render a decision.Alternately, the Archives can inform you of the nature of the potentially excepted information and if you agree, that information can be redacted or removed and you can access the remainder of the records.
Records series described in this finding aid have access restrictions specific to each of them. The terms of access are found following the series' descriptions....."

I keep hearing his open records referred on the news and in some posts here. My points:
1. How do you request something that is detailed enough if you don't have details?
2. The archivist has 10 days. That is if they are not overworked. May take longer.
3. The Attorney General has 45 days to reply. Then he may reply in the negative.
4. He may allow some to be redacted and removed, and you may view the rest.


More:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2003-11-07/pols_feature.html

[flpoljunkie]

99. Texas Public Info Act stronger & more reliable than federal equivalent...

according to the link you provided:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2003-11-07/pols_feature.html

"That meant that for a time at least, the Texas Public Information Act -- stronger and more reliable than the federal equivalent in effect at the Bush Presidential Library at A&M -- was in full force, requiring timely disclosure of the archives' contents in response to open records requests."

[goodhue]

105. so what

All data practices requests under any data practices system I'm familiar with including the FOIA are untimely and burdensome and result in redaction. But these records are not sealed by legal definition.

Its pure spin and its only necessary because Dean didn't know what hell he was talking about when he dared Bush to open his records and then he would open his.

Unfortunately not knowing what one is talking about and then being forced to spin thereafter is a pattern all to familiar with Dean.

But he does have lots of folks willing to repeat his spin ad naseum.

[Myra]

89. What do you guys think of the explanation that Dean is now a private

citizen, not a sitting governor, so can keep his records sealed?

[goodhue]

113. horrible explanation

Gubenatorial records belong to the public not Dean. Only issue is access. Public officials returning to the private sector cannot simply take records with them. The records are subject to the relevant data practices statutes. Here, Dean sealed his records upon leaving office for a period longer than would otherwise be the case and was forthright in noting that this was done because of future political ambition. His biggest mistake was challenging Bush to unseal his records when in fact the Texas AG had already stepped in to return Bush's records to the people of Texas where they belong. Now all he can do is spin, spin, spin.

[burning bush]

90. Jeez, what a buch of suckers...

If there is something nasty in Dr Dean's records, I'll make a public apology.

But there's nothing there! And y'all are falling for an old slight of hand trick.

"Look over here, look over here!"

-Oops, nothing over here!

So go ahead Kerry gang. Let's keep pushing this, make a big deal about it, then look like Geraldo standing over an empty safe...

bwaa.
ha.
ha!

[Zomby Woof]

94. the Bush gambit is a cop-out

I love it when Dean's crowd says "He should only open his when Bush opens his!"

As if Bush's secrecy and irresponsibility is an excuse for perpetuating it. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Dean has the opportunity to take the high road and open them, just to prove there is nothing damning in them. Then he has the moral authority over Bush to demand he opens his records.

It's a disingenuous cop-out from the Deanbots to cover up for his cover-ups. How many rationalizations for his shortcomings can they conjure?

[TexasPatriot]

96. we dont know the answer to that

but it seems there are a lot of egos tied up into their candidates around here - which is bad news for the dems in general.

[blm]

98. I've seen no end to it.

It's mind boggling. Very reminiscent of Bush apologists.

[TexasPatriot]

101. i have a feeling

This issue isnt going away.
Dean's responses have obviously made people more, not less, curious.

It's sort of like the anti-dean ad - which i see every time a dem gets on a cable news interview, because the interviewer is baiting them to comment. I swear that ad has gotten 1000x the coverage that was paid for.

[goodhue]

104. I'm curious!

Unseal the records already. Please remember that even when the records are unsealed, certain information may very well remain non-public as it should. Redaction is normal and necessary. Sealing records otherwise is not good policy or good government.

FYI, here is Vermont Statute Sec 317 listing records exempt from public disclosure:

EXCEPTIONS (1 V.S.A. § 317)
"Public record or document" means all papers, documents, machine readable materials or any other written or recorded matters, regardless of their physical form or characteristics, produced or acquired in the course of agency business. Individual salaries and benefits of and salary schedules relating to elected or appointed officials and employees of public agencies shall not be exempt from public inspection and copying. The following public records ARE EXEMPT (See statute for complete description.):

(1) records designated confidential by law;
(2) records, which by law may only be disclosed to specifically designated persons;
(3) records, which, if made public under this law, would cause the custodian to violate duly, adopted standards of ethics or conduct for any profession regulated by the state;
(4) records, which, if made public under this law, would cause the custodian to violate any statutory or common law, privilege;
(5) records dealing with the detection and investigation of a crime. This does not exempt records of the initial arrest of a person and the charge;
(6) tax returns and related documents;
(7) personal documents relating to an individual; how-ever, information in an individual's personnel file shall be available to that individual or his/her designated representative;
(8) test questions and scoring keys;
(9) trade secrets;
(10) lists of names compiled or obtained by a public agency when disclosure would violate a person's right to privacy or produce public or private gain, unless the lists are made available to the public by law;
(11) student records at educational institutions funded wholly or in part by state revenue;
(12) records concerning formulation of policy if disclosure would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy;
(13) information pertaining to the location of real or personal property for public agency purposes prior to public announcement of the project, and information pertaining to appraisals or purchase price of real or personal property for public purposes prior to the formal award of contracts thereof;
(14) records relating to pending litigation involving the public agency, until ruled discoverable or litigation has ended;
(15) records relating to negotiation of contracts including, but not limited to, public employee collective bargaining agreements;
(16) voluntary information provided by an individual, corporation, organization, partnership, or any other entity before the enactment of this law; and
(17) records within or between departments, which are preliminary to determination of policy or precede presentation of the budget;
(18) records of the office of internal investigation of the department of public safety;
(19) records relating to the identity of library patrons or the identity of library patrons in regard to the circulation of library materials; and
(20) information which would reveal the location of archeological sites and underwater historic properties.
(21) records of, or internal materials prepared for, the deliberations of any public agency acting in a judicial or quasijudicial capacity;
(22) passwords, access codes, user identifications, security procedures and similar information where disclosure would threaten safety of persons or security of public property;
(23) information and records provided to the department of banking, insurance, securities and health care administration by an individual for the purposes of having the department assist with resolving disputes with regulated companies.
(24) information and records provided to the department of public service to resolve a dispute with a regulated utility or other individual.

http://www.vlct.org/local/publicrecords.htm

[Lefta Dissenter]

102. Thank you Mary Beth!

Dean, just release the damned records! Get the issue off the table.

Dean said: "I'll unseal mine if he'll unseal his."

Don't we want someone who is better than the current resident of the White House, not someone who sinks to the same level in the gutter? This delay is so reminiscent of the newly-elected Governor of California,

inaccurately quoted "We don't have time to look into the allegations of sexual harrassment until after I am elected."

How is this any different? If there's something in there, let's deal with it now! If it's horrible, it might take him out, and we won't have to face the issue in the general election. If it's nothing, as I'm sure we all hope, then if he happens to be the Dem. nominee, the issue of his reluctance to open the records is long forgotten by the time the general election rolls around.

HE KNOWS WHAT IS IN THERE - WHY WON'T HE JUST MAKE THE CALL AND HAVE THEM OPENED???

And I would make the same case to any of the candidates who might have records that they are keeping concealed.

Clark has posted ALL records that he has access to on his website, and he faxed them to reporters. This includes performance evaluations from when he was in the military and documents from his business life after the military. The only military records that have not been released are from when he was a three- or four-star general. Those, by law, are kept sealed by the U.S. Government, for obvious reasons. You can bet, however, that if those records held any juicy tidbits, they'd have been leaked to the press long ago.

What have the rest of the candidates done?

[stickdog]

103. Notice she doesn't say Kerry will open his records. (nt)

[mjv135]

112. Personally

I think he keeps the recipe for his brain-washing kool-aide in those records!

I think the Dean campaign word of the day is "Rationalization"

And it's the same word every day!

[blm]

114. BFEE got Howie's tongue?

That's what happens when you make deals with the Koch brothers, Howie.

Pretty dumb move. Bet Rove has every duplicate record he needs from the Koch brothers.

[goodhue]

116. tell me more

I'm curious. It's not the first time I've heard the evil Koch brothers mentioned with reference to Dean. Maybe there is something in them there records. Oh darn, they are sealed. Where there is smoke there is fire, generally. Can some Vermont environmentalistm please step forth into the light and explain what it is that Dean is hiding? Somehow I think the issue would only play in primaries not the GE, so delay and spin remain Dean's best hope.

[blm]

119. Conservation Law Foundation requested records of Vermont Yankee sale

to Entergy/Koch Industries.

They were turned down.

[goodhue]

120. Oh yes, Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant

http://www.clf.org/advocacy/Vermont_Yankee_page.htm

On August 1st, the keys to Vermont's only nuclear plant were handed to Entergy Corporation, ending a three year saga by Vermont's utilities to sell the aging Vermont Yankee facility.

CLF first intervened in the Yankee sale in 1999 when Vermont's utilities tried to give the plant away to another company, AmerGen, for a mere $10 million. Under the first deal, ratepayers were to be stuck with the resulting loss. CLF immediately called foul, and demanded a public interest auction to maximize returns on any sale. The utilities resisted until state regulators echoed CLF's position, and dismissed the initial firesale. Finally, a formal auction was held during the summer of 2001, yielding a whopping $180 million bid from Entergy Corporation. As the chair of the Vermont Public Service Board repeatedly emphasized, this huge increase in price would not have occurred but for CLF's efforts, with the result that Vermont ratepayers will not bear any stranded nuclear costs.

Unfortunately, the 2001 auction was not your typical sale. Instead, the utilities agreed to deliver their ratepayers to Entergy by linking the sale to an above-market, long-term power contract. CLF vigorously opposed the power contract because it requires Vermont consumers to buy back the Yankee output for another 10 years at substantially above-market prices. As proposed, the power contract would have provided Entergy with a perverse ratepayer subsidy that threatened to give Vermont Yankee a new lease on life. However, due in large part to CLF's advocacy, the final terms of the sale, as approved by Vermont regulators, while not perfect, should hasten the shutdown of Vermont Yankee and include important conditions designed to protect ratepayers.

[blm]

121. Amazing that so many Dems have fallen for this snake-oil salesman

pretending to be a populist.

[goodhue]

122. maybe they don't know about his environmental record?!

But there has been plenty of stories, so maybe they don't care?!

http://www.concordmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2003/082103dean_env_2003.shtml

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/43924

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Oct-30-Thu-2003/opinion/22478150.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html

http://www.wildmatters.org/stories.php?storyID=85

[LSK]

129. do you actually read what you post?

[goodhue]

140. yes

but I wonder whether anyone else does. why do you ask?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

125. Still no response here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=96196


Where can I view Kerry's correspondence? What's he hiding?

[Andromeda]

137. Bite me, Mary Beth!

:grr: