I hate Pat Buchanan, but did you see him REAM Sharansky on MTP?

[goodboy]

Pat B. does make sense from time to time when discussing US mideast policy.

[E_Smith]

1. He is on the money on foreign policy

He tells the truth about US foreign policy and the cause of terror, as well as the absurdity of Bush's plan to spread democracy.

[paineinthearse]

2. Buchanan is a traditional conservative

Don't discount the conservatives, we have common ground in some areas.

Any enemy of * is a friend of mine.

[SHRED]

3. Pat B.

Is correct on a lot of issues.

I just can't stand him on the others.

[FreedomAngel82]

35. It never made sense on why

he voted for Bush when Bush is doing so many awful things. :shrug: I would've rather have a democrat President who could've worked on getting us out of Iraq (we know Bush doesn't want to leave) and work on getting us as a nation back up as well. But nope. He got what he voted for.

[oasis]

73. I believe he voted for Bush because of the Supreme Court Justice

positions that will need to be filled in the next four years. Pat's strongly against abortion rights.

[Spiffarino]

4. I don't hate Buchanan

...for the same reason I don't "hate" Jesse Helms or Grover Norquist. Their views are 180 degrees from my own most of the time, but at least they don't try to pretend they're about something else. They demonstrate personal honor and integrity, whatever their beliefs.

Besides all that, hate's never a good thing.

[Obviousman]

8. I get what you mean

I respect the guy, but I don't agree with him. A lot of the time his political analysis is right on the money too

[leesa]

12. personal honor and integrity? I think you mean to use other words.

It is not integrity or personally honorable to stubbornly remain a bigot or a warmongerer for power or profit.

[blondeatlast]

16. While we prop Buchanan up, as we do periodically on DU,

I'm glad there are a few of us left who aren't anxious to embrace hi,

Just because you have the right call on the invasion in Iraq doesn't make you a peacenik or LW ally. It just means you're right on the Iraqi invasion.

[bermudat]

18. Amen, sister.

[Spiffarino]

60. I believe it takes honor and integrity

...to take a stance on your position, however wrong it is.

It's up to them to make their case. As long as those listening reject bigotry, hatred, etc., they can say whatever they want. At least they're not liars. BushCo and the Funditocracy, however, are abject liars who cause far more harm by lying about their agenda.

[RealDems]

31. I tend to agree about Buchanan

I think he's a smart guy, has strong convictions, and is wrong about most things.

Can't say the same about Helms and Norquist. I guess I do hate them.

[dansolo]

48. It's OK to hate Grover Norquist

He is truly evil.

[Spiffarino]

70. Without question he is an evil mofo...

But you have to admit that he at least doesn't lie about it. :evilgrin:

[hatrack]

75. But Norquist HAS begun to lie about it

ATR was supposed to be all about controlling spending, small government, tax cuts blahblahblaah. This seems to be changing. There were at least two recent articles on DU about how ol' Grover's changing his tune about deficits.

You see, now it doesn't matter. He's even begun to talk about the federal deficit and debt as percentages of GDP, rather than trotting out the Billions and Billions of years past.

So, no, he's not just a fat contemptible little psychopathic ideologue. Norquist is now a fat contemptible little psychopathic LIAR busily abandoning everything his organization is supposed to be about.

[Spiffarino]

76. Well, scratch him off the list

Lying little scumbag. Now they're all in bed together. God help us.

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. Here's a truly frightening thought...

In 1992, Pat Buchanan scared the shit out of moderate Republicans and sent them running to Clinton and Perot.

Thirteen years later, Pat sounds like a reasonable moderate conservative. Yet his positions haven't changed on anything, that I'm aware of.

That's how extreme this traitorous neocon agenda is. :scared:

[Vinnie From Indy]

10. Amen!

It is amazing how what was considered very extreme is now almost the center. I believe Buchanon is correct about "intervention" and "imperialism" being the root cause of terrorism and that Bush's policies to go into the democracy export business will set our country down a very long path of endless war and global conflict. There is some common ground with some conservatives.

[Quixote1818]

15. Exactly right. Good assement!

[FreedomAngel82]

38. They're talking about him on RadioLeft

now and they're saying how Robertson is better to listen to then Ann Coulter and at least they're honest about what they talk about and the lady from makethemaccountable.com said she puts some articles on her site from their magazine sometimes. They also agreed how Robertson isn't like some of the republicans and aren't total hypocrites.

[foo_bar]

57. Pat Robertson isn't a total hypocrite?

Or did you mean (the totally hypocritical) Pat Buchanan?

[blondeatlast]

17. BEST. SUMMATION. YET.

Nailed it.

That's how desperate the nation is.

I still despise Pat Buchanan.

[RealDems]

52. But it's the issues that have changed...

the hot button issues in '92 were cultural -- on which Buchanan is an extreme conservative. Now, the hot button issues are on foreign policy (not just war, but trade as well), and on that, Buchanan is on our side.

[chicagojoe]

6. It's up next in my time zone. Something tells me it'll be interesting.

[Tinoire]

7. Wartching him now He's making mincemeat out of that ass

Sharanksy is sputtering unmitigated nonesense.

[OETKB]

9. The True Conservative

Mr Buchanan like many of us is a product of his surroundings and while he has accurately assessed our place in the world, he is off on domestic issues. Like many conservatives he believes our lot in life is changed by our "free will." He can not see that survival in a society is more complex than that, like availability of health care, getting paid a living wage, examining the problem of unwanted pregnancy not just abortion, etc.


He gets it right in foreign affairs because the distance is enough and his sense of wanting to be left alone pushes him to the right answer. We get there because we are interested in the survival of all human beings. He gets there because he cares about the survival of Americans. Funny how it all works out some times.

So even if I disagree on some issues, when someone expresses a view and solution which removes harm and encourages peace, I have to support it. Maybe it will be different on the next issue.

By the way, is the transcript up yet? I would like to make a copy.

[goodboy]

20. You're right on the mark. I haven't seen the transcript yet. please post

it here if you find it.

[OETKB]

29. Here's the transcript

It is up on the "Meet the Press" site.

<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6954712/>

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. If He's A True Conservative Than A Conservatism Is More Fucked Than I

Thought...


The man's a

racist

anti-semite

sexist

homophobe

xenophobe

and a

all purpose bigot...

[OETKB]

40. Cool Your Heels

Our strategy should be to divide and conquer. If we can split the opposition by using their own to show them the error of their ways, nothing could be sweeter. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Is David Duke A Gift Horse Too?

At least David Duke actually got himself elected to something at one time...

[OETKB]

66. You have missed the point

Mr. Buchanan has given a very reasoned argument for not intervening in other countries because it leads to terrorism against us or our allies. Mr. Duke does no such thing. He is a dangerous bigot through and through. He is not trustworthy and is not open to proper debate. Although I do not agree with it, Mr. Buchanan believes in a "dog eat dog" world, and each has to look after own. He puts personhood to nationhood. Mr. Duke is just pure hate through and through and has no reasoned belief system. This is a significant difference. Remember we have to live with these people a la Mr. Buchanan. In this system we have to use those political tools and social activism available to us, but not violence, to achieve our ends. Do we want to look like present day Iraq?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. I Have Read David Duke's Writing On 9-11

They are not very different than Pat Buchanan's

www.davidduke.com


Why is David Duke a bigot through and through and not Pat Buchanan


Pat Buchanan has made pejorative statements about Jews, African Americans, Hispanics, and feminists...

I see no daylight between them...

[OETKB]

78. The Choice Is Clear

Either there is co-existance with protection by just laws or we have revolution. What solution are you proposing?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. I Never Said Neither Should Be Censored

They are unreconstructed bigots...


The only difference between Pat Buchanan and David Duke is that Pat Buchanan lacks David Duke's Aryan good looks....

[Leilani]

46. Have you seen this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3104023

David Wolper, the film maker, knows Buchanan, & defends him against smears. Wolper, as a Jew, & a person who knows him seems to have more valid info on whether or not Buchanan is a racist.

A lot of the stuff that Buchanan has been accused of is the NeoCon & PNAC spin. They have smeared many people, & Buchanan wasn't the first & won't be the last.

Buchanan has lots of positions that Liberals would not be comfortable with, but I don't think they're racist.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. Here's Pat's Greatest Hits...

http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/Pat_Buchanan_Civil_Rights.htm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. I'll Give You His Smash Hits....

For this exercise we will ignore Pat's Jew bashing because he bashs everybody that's different....


On gays:

"Homosexuality involves sexual acts most men consider not only
immoral, but filthy. The reason public men rarely say aloud what
most say privately is they are fearful of being branded 'bigots' by
an intolerant liberal orthodoxy that holds, against all evidence
and experience, that homosexuality is a normal, healthy lifestyle."
(syndicated column, 9/3/89

In a 1977 column urging a "thrashing" of gay groups, Buchanan wrote:
"Homosexuality is not a civil right. Its rise almost always is
accompanied, as in the Weimar Republic, with a decay of society and a
collapse of its basic cinder block, the family." (New Republic, 3/30/92)

On AIDS, Buchanan wrote in 1983: "The poor homosexuals -- they have
declared war upon nature, and now nature is extracting an awful retribution
(AIDS)." (Los Angeles Times, 11/28/86) Later that year, he demanded that
New York City Ed Koch and New York Gov. Mario Cuomo cancel the Gay Pride
Parade or else "be held personally responsible for the spread of the AIDS
plague." "With 80,000 dead of AIDS, our promiscuous homosexuals appear
literally hell-bent on Satanism and suicide," Buchanan wrote in 1990
(syndicated column, 10/17/90). In the 1992 campaign, he declared: "AIDS is
nature's retribution for violating the laws of nature." (Seattle Times

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. More Pat Buchanan Unplugged

On Women

ON WOMEN:

"Rail as they will about 'discrimination,' women are simply not
endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and
the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western
capitalism." (syndicated column, 11/22/83)

"The real liberators of American women were not the feminist
noise-makers, they were the automobile, the supermarket, the shopping
center, the dishwasher, the washer-dryer, the freezer." (Right from the
Beginning, p. 149)

"If a woman has come to believe that divorce is the answer to every
difficult marriage, that career comes before children .. no democratic
government can impose another set of values upon her." (Right from the
Beginning, p. 341)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. On African Americans

After Sen. Carol Moseley Braun blocked a federal patent for a
Confederate flag insignia, Buchanan wrote that she was "putting on an act"
by associating the Confederacy with slavery: "The War Between the States
was about independence, about self-determination, about the right of a
people to break free of a government to which they could no longer give
allegiance," Buchanan asserted. "How long is this endless groveling
before every cry of'racism' going to continue before the whole country
collectively throws up?" (syndicated column, 7/28/93)
In a column sympathetic to ex-Klansman David Duke, Buchanan chided
the Republican Party for overreacting to Duke and his Nazi "costume": "Take
a hard look at Duke's portfolio of winning issues and expropriate those not
in conflict with GOP principles, reverse discrimination against
white folks." (syndicated column, 2/25/89)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. There's More But Out Of Respect For Skinner's Bandwidth I'll Stop

Peace

Brian

[Leilani]

61. I understand completely where you're coming from.

But, perhaps due to my age, I've become more cynical.

In politics, I've found very few White Knights; most of our "Political Leaders" are a mixture of good & bad, therefore I tend to be an ala carte consumer of all things political.

Peace to you.

Leilani

[Leilani]

56. Well, I would disagree with every statement by Buchanan

that you have posted.

I clearly believe his religious beliefs are radical, & lead to the radical stands that he takes.

But your link on political stands by various politicians, shows that in an interview, his views are more nuanced. For instance, he's against homosexuality, but was calling for the govt to do something about aids.

I don't pretend to be an apologist for Buchanan. But I think he is quite eloquent on some issues, for instance Free Trade. I have heard him countless times talk about illegal immigration affecting our poorest people, those of color, who are being hurt the most. And I tend to agree with most of his foreign policy views, that we should stop intervening all over the world. He is defenitely an anti-Imperialist.

I thought you would be interested in reading a post by a very intelligent & sophisticated man who knows Buchanan, & defends him against some of the accusations made.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. I Didn't Post All His Statements Because I Don't Want To Spam The Board...

There were a lot more...


I would suggest his aversion to free trade is more a function of his xenophobia than compassion for the poor....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. How Do We Know He's David Wolper...

Once I wanted to have some fun at a Miami Herald Miami Dolphins board and signed in as Joe Willie Namath because I knew a few things about Joe including the fact he's a south Florida resident; Tequesta to be specific...


Some folks were eating it up...

[Leilani]

68. Sure, some posters are liars or jokers

but check out this archived thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2254942#2255073

When I read it I remembered he posts here occasionally, & I didn't question its authenticity.

Could be a prankster, but it seemed legit to me. And he certainly didn't sound like some anti-Semite bigot, with his discussion of Shirer's book made into the film.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. He Very Well Could Be...

As to the point that he vouched for Pat Buchanan...


He's entitled to his opinion...


But I have cited all his attacks on Jews, gays, blacks, feminists, and other groups and am left in the position of the wife who confronts her husband in flagrante delicto with another woman and he says "who do you believe me or your lying eyes"

[Leilani]

72. I haven't even seen MTP yet

because of the time difference, but it starts in 15 minutes.

And after all the discussion, I'm anxious to see this debate.

[Tinoire]

77. Ditto. n/t

[qanda]

11. That was amazing

I was shaking my head yes the entire time Pat was speaking.

[goodboy]

19. sharansky looked like a total ass.

[Quixote1818]

13. He use to scare me but now I think he is pretty dam smart on some things

Buchanan won that debate because he gave real examples of history over and over. Sharansky has good intentions but he is off the mark based simply on what has and has not worked in the past.

[Quixote1818]

14. Buchanan endorsed Kerry this last election. That accounts for something.

[AntiCoup2K4]

23. No he didn't

Pat endorsed Junior. But his partners at the American Conservative magazine did endorse Kerry.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. He personally didn't

I saw him on one of the CSPAN channel's talking about his book and he was saying how some people ask him if he's against the Iraq war why he's still voting for Bush and his response was: "look who they (democrats) gave us." :shrug:

[SeveneightyWhoa]

59. Actually, one writer from Buchanan's magazine..

.."The American Conservative", endorsed Kerry. Just one writer, one article.

Buchanan himself was for Bush.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. Not Only Was He For Bush But He Was A Big Fan Of The Swift

Boat Liars and he couldn't make enough political hay out of Kerry's remarks about Mary Cheney...

He went as far as to say those remarks could cost Kerry the election...

[Quixote1818]

74. Actually the whole Magazine Endorsed Kerry

Senator Kerry has received an endorsement from the most unlikely of sources. 'The American Conservative.'

A magazine edited by three-time presidential candidate and conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, gave Kerry the nod.

The editorial board's reasoning is that a second Bush presidency will, "discredit any sort of conservatism for generations."

But the endorsement was quick to add that it would oppose a Kerry presidency from day one.

[librechik]

21. Have to say I quite enjoyed that

Especially Pat's repetition of the meme "Intervention is the cause of terrorism, not the answer to it."

We should start repeating that too!

[Politiclo8]

22. Did anyone see Buchanan............

make his 2005 prediction on The MG at the beginning of January?
He said that * would be mired in scandal by year end and his approval rating would be in the low 40's or hig 30's!!!!!
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
He must have known something that we are just finding out!!!!!!!!!!

[napi21]

30. I sure hope he's right!, and soon enough that he can't do any

real serious damage before then!

[Zorro]

24. Buchanan has been an Arab apologist for decades

Just like Novak, he vigorously supported Assad in Syria and didn't embrace the Iraq war because of his respect for Saddam Hussein.

Perhaps it's realpolitik or some genuine admiration these guys have for totalitarianism that makes these guys support mideast strongmen. In any case, I believe that one would be misleading themself by embracing Buchanan as representative of a "true" conservative.

He's still an asshole in my book, and has been ever since the days he was writing confrontational and devisive speeches for Spiro Agnew.

[IndianaGreen]

25. And Sharansky is a racist puke

How in the Hell did Reagan managed to convince the world that this POS was a freedom loving humanitarian?

[Skittles]

26. always been torn on old Pat

yeah, he's a conservative asshole but he's not PHONY like so many of them are; also, he does refuse to goose-step sometimes.

[CindyDale]

27. Guess Pat's too afraid of Gulf Oil to take it on

or too hypocritical. So he has to blame Jews. Why the hell would any Jew appear with this man? Guess he doesn't know the administration is using Jews as scapegoats. The fool.

They are all enabling each other, IMO.

[B0S0X87]

28. I don't like him at all, even when I agree with him

Take globablization. He says that American workers can't compete with slave wages in third-world countries. Fair enough. But then why not run with the idea of "fair trade" and make sure that their are rules in our trade agreements that can't be abused? No, Buchanan goes for complete isolationism and protectionism and encourages creating a wall around America under the guise of protecting jobs and security. He doesn't really give a shit about American workers. He doesn't want to raise the minimum wage, or break up monopolies, or have higher environmental standards. The reason he opposes globablization is because he is ultra xenophobic and hates the idea of foreigners being involved with the U.S. economy.

[LittleClarkie]

32. I don't hate him, but he is Sybilesque

How can you be so on the money on foreign policy, still vote for Bush because of the Supreme Court, and declare that you think the Smear Vets got a "raw deal."

He confuses me greatly, but he is worth listening to on foreign policy. He's just a touch too isolationist for me. I think his position is ultimately unrealistic, but it is very interesting to listen to him on the subject. He mirrors several on the left in his Iraq stance.

[dsc]

33. People can be right for the wrong reasons

His views on the mideast sadly come from ingrained anti Semitism but that doesn't make his prescription invalid, only his diagnosis.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. The Fucker Said AIDS Was God's Revenge On Gays...

He said gays declared war on nature and AIDS was nature taking it's revenge....

[dsc]

39. Yes and that makes him a horrible person

I certainly don't want him to be in office. But even horrible people can be right. He is right about Iraq. He was right about Nafta. Sometimes we literally lose our minds over this issue here. Byrd and Buchanan are absolutely correct on the war. Byrd and Buchanan are both homophobes. It is possible to be a lousy person and be right, just like one can be a good person (like Harkin) and be flat our wrong on the war (though to his credit Harkin admitted he was wrong).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. He 's Worse Than Robert Byrd...

Robert Byrd is eighty five years old and his homopobia is a function of his cultural insulation and ignorance...


Pat Buchanan's homophobia is a function of his malice toward gay people...


Both are wrong but the motivations are different...


Bucahanan's opposition to NAFTA is a product of his xenophobia and and his opposition to the Gulf War is a product of his ant-semitism; neither of which are noble motivations...

Who needs Buchanan when you can have the real thing:

www.davidduke.com

I'll bet if David Duke was on MTP he could have ripped Natan Sharansky a new one too...

[dsc]

49. I don't give Byrd a pass on grounds of age

He is very close in age to Kennedy and younger than Metzenbalm both of whom had good records on gay rights. But more largly, I think that people should be judged in total and thus Byrd is a better person than Buchanan. But on the issue of gay rights I fail to see any difference.

If Buchanan is able to persuade other people like him to oppose this war and thus end it sooner, then good. That won't make him a good person but it will make us better off. In the final analysis that is what I care about. I am not talking about making Buchanan Sec or State or otherwise giving him political power. But if his words can end this war, bully for him. He will still be an evil homophobic, racist, anti semite, the day after the war ends but the war will have ended.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Kennedy And Metzenbaum Came Out Of A Different Culture...

I'm not excusing Byrd's racism or homophobia I just see it as a function of his ignorance and not malice though to a target of homphobia this is a distinction without a difference...


Also, I opposed the war but I think there were people of good faith who supported it and people of bad faith who opposed it and vice versa...


I really don't think Pat Buchanan has much influence... His little paper is a joke and he got less than one half percent of the vote when he ran for president in 00...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Pat Buchanan Is A Homophobe, A Racist, A Sexist, And An Anti-Semite...

Maybe we should deify David Duke because he opposed the invasion of Iraq also....


I remember watching Scarburro 's (sic) show on MSNBC in the waning days of Campaign 04... Pat Buchanan almost got wood when he cited polls showing Bush* pulling ahead...

The only reason he opposed the Iraqi invasion is because there were no Jews, blacks, gays, or feminists there to be killed....


I wouldn't piss down that son of a bitch's throat if his heart was on fire...

[Vinnie From Indy]

44. LOL We Offer This Gift in Honor of Saint Patrick Buchanon

This is a case where one can agree with and support the message and still kill the messenger.

The heart quote adds a bit of zest!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Here's Pat's Greatesr Hits

http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/Pat_Buchanan_Civil_Rights.htm

[B0S0X87]

62. Thanks. Those made me laugh

But my favorite Buchanan quote is from the foreign policy section where he says we should annex Greenland.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. I Report You Decide...

go to www.davidduke.com and see if there's any room between Pat Buchanan's views and David Dukes'...

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. I could not believe I found myself agreeing with Pat Buchanan!

:scared: That's a first. He hit the nail on the head today.