Dem's on talking head shows need a friggin plan. Repubs are aggressive

[Pirate Smile]

in attacking the Democrats at every opportunity and we just make reasonable suggestions and half-assed defenses of our views.

I watched Dem Gov. Bill Richardson and Repub Gov. Owens. Every response from Owens included an attack on Democrats and praise of Bush. Richardson's responses were the standard, measured responses to the questions re policies.

I hope one of the first things Dean does is get a smart, strong and effective media plan sent out to all the Dem. politicians and pundits. Since he has been studying Newt's strategy in 1994, I hope this will be coming soon. This is one area the Repubs have been EXTREMELY effective at and Democrats frequently seem completely clueless about how they are getting their asses kicked.

If other people had a different take on the show, let me know how you saw it. I did have some interruptions since I was getting lunch ready for all my little munchkins.

It is so aggravating that we seem to continue to lose the framing debate and let our party be put on the defensive when we should be on the attack.

[Downtown Hound]

1. I agree, Democrats have been terrible on media issues

They need to find some people that can take the right wing bullies down. Too often they get people on those pundit shows that look like deer in the headlights. I was beginning to think that maybe that was the way it was always going to be until I listened to Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy. They can literally destroy any right winger that they go up against. We need to start getting people like that not only to go and take these people on, but to form more of our own media and start setting the rules.

[Ashamed_American]

3. I think of this often.

There are a number of people we could have on TV knocking the questions and critics out of the park.

I guess the problem is, you guessed it, the media themselves. For a few reasons.

One, the guys who seem to have the most influence now (unfortunately) such as the O'reilly's and Hannity's are a master at the art of diffusing any conversation that may challenge their personal perspective they are spewing at the guest. So many tricks to use. Cut them off, out number them with right-wingers on the show, use the next day's show to twist and skew the previous days comments from the guest, and so on.

Two, people like you mentioned, the ones that CAN destroy anyone in their path are usually not invited on these shows to begin with for that reason.

All the more reason to have our own media to turn to. Many wish, pray, and dream about one day having a REAL liberal news source on nationally syndicated television. But I prefer to call it legitimate, not liberal. One day.....one day.


www.BlackEyedSundays.com

[FreedomAngel82]

37. I love listening to Rhandi and Mike destroying reps

It's so funny and humerous because they treat them and their responses like they're beneath them and all that. Hehe. I would love to see Rhandi on some of these shows. I remember seeing Jeanene on Scaborough's show after the election with one of the founders from AAR. They held their own and did really well and weren't afraid of being in the conversation. I've noticed on these type of shows you can't be poliet. You just have to jump in and debate with them and don't back down. I hope Dean and Reid work together on the "war room."

[Downtown Hound]

52. Yep, these shows aren't about having a debate

They're about going at each other's throats. It's a form of entertainment. It's really sick and disgusting that this is where the level of political discourse in this country has gotten to, but that's the way it is. If you are polite and well spoken and thoughtful, you are torn apart. It's that simple. You have to be a jackal.

That's why we need to counteract it. We need our own version of Fox News. It doesn't have to lie like Fox does, it can simply really be the fair and balanced news channel and it will appear liberal to the conservatives out there. We need trained people to go on these other shows and counteract the spin. I just read that the Democrats made $400,000,000 last election cycle compared to the Republican's $385,000,000. With that kind of money at our disposal, there's no excuse in the world for letting the Repukes dominate the political discourse.

[TheFarseer]

2. It's hard to fight

when you're sticking to the facts and the other side is making up stuff and passing it off as fact. It's also hard to fight when one side keeps constantly changing history and no one calls them on it. But I also agree that our pundits need to take some swings at bush cause they're damn sure swinging at us.

[bluedog]

4. Stick to the Facts

thats the first thing that should come out of the Democrats mouth.......the very first thing.............

say to the host:.....in order to answer the question and to reply to republican____________________(whoever) I will begin with just the facts on this ______________(issue)

until this is done the talking pubbies will run over us................we need to get the points outs there....and if need be.YELL over the repub debater..............yeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Ashamed_American]

6. Farseer,

that's the big catch. The ones who have the job and obligation to shine light on those manufacturing facts and rewriting history unfortunately, more times than not, ARE the ones who are manufacturing those facts and rewriting that history.


www.BlackEyedSundays.com

[Pirate Smile]

11. We actually have a huge arsenal of facts we can bash them over

the head with but the people on the shows don't remember them, recognize them or want to use them.

They were talking about the budget deficit. Owens was slamming dems for complaining about it but being unwilling to deal with actually cutting the deficit - OMG - that is like a slow lob that should be bashed out of the park, there are so many ways to slam them on this issue but Richardson didn't. Excuse me while I pull my hair out.

[TheFarseer]

36. I didn't watch it

but that sounds like a hanging curve ball. I thought our basic position of rolling back tax cuts for the wealthy and gaining hundreds of billions of dollars was well documented. Bushes idea of cutting 150 programs for a measley few billion dollars is soooooooooo much more effective.

[Pirate Smile]

47. A recitation of the fact that Democrats are the only ones that have

actually balanced the budget and how no Republican Pres has done it in 40 years.

A few facts thrown out about how much the government has grown under Bush while it shrank under the last Democratic President (you could even exclude the military or Homeland Security parts).

The perception people have is not consistent with the facts and we need to keep pointing that out.

It doesn't have to be a huge monologue, just get a few facts out there to alter the warped perception the Republicans have fostered about Democrats.

Our image needs to be revamped and framed by US, not the Republicans.

[googly]

53. There has been ONLY ONE balanced budget in 60 years.

to the best of my knowledge.

[Telly Savalas]

56. Actually both 1956 and 1957 saw balanced budgets...

which makes two GOP balanced budgets since Herbert Hoover. Party of fiscal conservatism, my ass.

[JohnnyRingo]

5. Lack of logic and reason makes for difficult debate

I've noticed a resurgence of comments like:

1. Clinton did it
2. Clinton agreed with us
3. Clinton lied

When their backs are against the wall, they turn the focus to Democrats.

And their backs have been against the wall a lot lately.

[Ashamed_American]

8. You hit it Mr. Ringo,

aahhh Clinton, the big Red Fallback. Some may be relevant, some not. But in all honesty you can always look back and find someone in either party to use for just about any arguement.

Although here is what happens. They can use Clinton, as they do so very often. If someone from our side pointed out an old or current Repub's history to shed legitimacy to his/her arguement, the host of the show pulls out a different card. (see Hannity) And it goes something like this.

Host: "Here you are, shaming the name of a decorated war veteran," ... or ... "You have the nerve to take jabs at the man who donated money to yada yada Children's Foundation."

Point to the facts and they make you look like you are dragging a saint through the mud.


www.BlackEyedSundays.com

[sunnystarr]

22. Then that's the time to pull a "Jon Stewart" !!!! (nt)

[Pirate Smile]

20. Right, so we need to challenge them on it instead of letting them get

away with distorting things to put us on the defensive.

It is like the Democrats want to be polite and not mention that everything the other side just said is BS. Repubs make no illusions about wanting to be polite. They couldn't care less and they don't seem to be getting punished for it.

Richardson focused on the question Wolfie just asked and ignored the fog of lies just thrown into the air by Owens. It leaves the impression that all that BS is true. Frequently, the conversation morphs into a discussion with the BS laid out like it is a valid premise on which the conversation is taking place.

[Pithy Cherub]

7. A media strategy

for Dems should include challenging the media (its biases, assumptions and revenue models)and ruthlessly challenge the staus quo for discussion. The first tier is to set up a Dem response to the current conditions that becomes noteworthy in of itself, secondly to follow up appearances with recaps, notes and facts on internet sites and third stay focused on a common agenda for a somewhat consistent message.

Actually calling the media out on passivity and preserving their right of being a host rather than a truth seeker, will assist in lighting a fire under the infotainment botoxed and blowdried ice cubes currently freezedried in their chairs.

[Pirate Smile]

16. I agree. Knowing how to be effective on these shows is not easy

or automatic. There are specific strategies and methods that work but we aren't following them as a party.

[Pithy Cherub]

19. Might it be useful for Chairman Dean to

set up an interactive feedback mechanism on the DNC website that allows donors to rate the pundits and the media 'hosts' and have it out there where everybody can see it. The grassroots wants more say so and one common theme is the media and its biased perspectives over what s important to the public.

Afterall, the Dems going on these shows seem to have forgotten that the airwaves belong to all of us not those at the TV studio or with the swinging new laptop. (It drives me nuts to see professional political ambition being the largest guide to demeanor on these shows!)

[Pachamama]

40. The DNC needs a RAPID RESPONSE WAR ROOM!

Afterall, this is precisely what the GOP and White House have - ever notice how quickly they have their pundits on the talk shows within an hour of something happening? And every single one of them (100's) have the same talking points....

We need the same thing - only better and legitimate!

:kick:

[Southsideirish]

9. I hope Howard makes all who wish to present themselves in the media

go through a crash course in "take no prisoners" style debating - we get killed on the shows all the time and look like wimps.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. That's a good idea!

I remember back in the 90's when I was younger and was one of those tennie bopper's I watched this special on Lou Pearlman and he was training a boyband with the media. He was teaching them how to properly respond and all that. I definietly think that could be a good idea for Dean to do. Get some very outspoken democrats who aren't afraid of these people, aren't afraid of debating the issues and who don't have big answers like Mr. Kerry does. I love that about Mr. Kerry but the people watching are republicans and most of them get confused about what he's talking about. I remember watching Mr. Reid on "Meet the Press" back in December and he did really well. Straight and honest answers and you could tell from his voice he really cared about what he was talking about.

[ClassWarrior]

10. Then we need to fund think tanks to coordinate our message.

NGU.

[burythehatchet]

13. NO, NO, NO

3 NO's. We are not them. We don't need a think tank to tell us what the message is. Truth resides with us. We need good spokespersons like Howard Dean. And Dean needs to rein in the pantywaist democratic "consultants". By the way, what the hell are the qualifications to call yourself a Democratic consultant. Hmmm, maybe someone ought to look into that one.

[burythehatchet]

12. Excellent, I was just going to post the same thought

I think of guys like Peter Fenn sitting next to Hannity grinning when the dickhead starts spewing his bile. I feel like slapping him and screaming "get off your friggin ass and fight back". The Daily Show had a great "Great Moments in Punditry" skit with Fenn and Coulter on dickhead and colmes where dickhead keeps telling Peter how many times he's interrupted Ann. The he says "you won't be asked back on the show". I split my side laughing.

nomintaed for greatest

[Pirate Smile]

23. That was funny. Did you see the segment with Richardson and Owens?

[Skidmore]

25. You can't fight back when you go unarmed and your only sources

are the OTC news magazines or People. These pundits are too busy currying invitations to and attending parties to be well versed in the what is going on in the nation beyond the DC beltway. Perhaps if they all attended their own "party", they could get the kind of feedback they need to provide a consistent response. If they can't do this, then they need to step back and let some new people who care do the job.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. What's funny about that I think

is the kids response to the skit. Some of them react like "these adults are so silly." LOL.

[TNMOM]

14. Our messages need to be sharper, more coordinated

Dean's first job should be crafting universal talkingpoints for issues that are important to our constituents. If the DNC already does this, they need to be doing a much better job.
Depending on what the hot buttons are that week or what issues we want to push, Dean's job is to recruit the appropriate people to be "available" and supply them with consistent, effective talkingpoints. Every progressive/liberal doing a sunday show should be singing off the same page.

And for crying out loud, we need to recruit our own team of shouters to shout down Hannity, Coulter and Limpballs. These guys all use the same set of talkinpoints, we have to anticipate what they'll say and put the right people in place to spin the issues.

[shindig]

26. Exactly!

And well thought-out responses is what we need. For example. Look how clear and concice their response is to the Gannon thing. Gannon is just like the opposite of Helen Thomas, they all say that at the same time. Might be right, might be wrong, but that doesn't mattter to them. I'ts clear and concise is what matters.

What is our response to that repsonse from them on the Gannon thing?

NOTHING is what our response is!

Where are our democrats on TV saying something like, Helen Thomas is a journalist first. She's a patriot. She puts country first. She might be a democrat or a liberal, but if a Democrat were president, she'd be grilling him, too. She grilled Clinton all the time, when he was president. Gannon is a shill. Shills don't care about country, they only care about who their shilling for. That's the difference between Helen Thomas and Gannon.

Now, maybe you don't agree with my response to them on the Gannon thing, for example. But at least I thought about it and tried to say something.

We almost won the last election without a message. Many, many people do not care for Bush. Imagine how well we could do, if we had an agressive offensive message and if we thought about our responses to their messages so that we could give effective responses instead of saying nothing, like we do now.

[shindig]

27. we need talking points,

deperately! Well thought out offensive and defensive talking points. And we even need a set of talking points for when Sean Hannity goes and says that what we are saying is just talking points. Talking points for the talking points is what we need.

That's all our opposition is and has is talking points. We are so much more than that. But without our having effective talking points to counter them, sadly, we have nothing.

Right now all we have is Bill Richardson hemming and hawing on TV while they go about their merry way in lock-step trouncing our ass.

[BlueManDude]

15. GOP is a cult and they are always on the programmed message

but you are right that the Dems are just pathetic on these shows.

[blondeatlast]

24. A cult--you aren't far off there.

Between the proselytizers in the press and the RW think tanks, whose "graduates" have infiltrated nearly every newsroom one can think of; you are onto something.

The cult of the think-tank republicans.

This has legs, guy.

[mzmolly]

32. True, and we have to become sucessful at "deprograming"

;)

[Al-CIAda]

17. 4+ years now...taking dives. As one reporter commented on

the recent meeting of Dems at a 'Democratic Party Retreat"....
"I'm not sure why the Dems when on such a trip, they've been on a retreat for 4 years now.
This comment got a 'Ohhhhh" from her audience.

The dems are partly losing for losing -that is, because the are seen as weak, they lose for not being seen as having conviction.

[sendero]

18. I've been saying this..

... til I'm blue in the face.

Our party needs about 5,000 more Carville types, who can think on their feet and twist the knife as well as the Repukes do.

I am brought almost to despair when I watch these sad sacks get the shit beat out of them over and over - I'm screaming at the TV "say this and what about that".

How did we get into this sorry condition? Dont' these people realize that elections are won and lost on the perception, not the facts?

[Just Me]

21. When I made that suggestion, I got slammed *LOL*.

We can't WIN if we're unwilling to be every bit as aggressive and ruthless as the right-wing bullying machine when confronting their members.

[Us vs Them]

28. We had a good discussion on punditry going here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3101609

[wryter2000]

29. Agreed

Part of the problem, imho, is that we're unwilling to lie. It puts us at a disadvantage right off the bat. But we can be outspoken in the truth instead of being polite.

[Telly Savalas]

57. If we truly we're outspoken in the truth...

then there would be no disadvantage by being unwilling to lie. Exposing the lies of our opponents only strengthens our hand.

[tanyev]

30. Don't even bother appearing on Fox News.

It's a waste of time. It is the propaganda channel of the Republican party, not a news station, and appearances by credible Democrats confer on it a legitimacy it does not deserve.

[blondeatlast]

35. Starve the beast. I'm completely with this idea.

We can't win that audience anyway for now. Once the Dems start talking tough *and Harry and Howard and Co. are off to an EXCELLENT start), then throw 'em a bone or two.

I'd almost go so far as to cut CNN off the teat.

[AlinPA]

45. I totally agree. By showing up on Fox , we just make it seem credible.

I don't watch it, but through DU, I understand our "leaders" show up there regularly. Then they get kicked around and take it like that wimp Colmes. He is a f---ing jerk. Sorry for the language, I've had it with this weakness.

[mzmolly]

31. Notify Howard Dean with your suggestions here! I sent an email to this

effect this am.

http://www.democrats.org/chair/feedback/index.html?psc=front

We need an organized PRECISE MESSAGE.

I also suggested George Lakoff as a hired gun. :hi:

[Al-CIAda]

33. Done- eom

[applegrove]

34. We are highly motivated. I think they are looking for more people

to learn what we have. And I think they have to take the high road - and at the same time teach their followers about the bad stuff. So that means that they act classy and point out the propaganda. They need to do that for a while. For all their followers to catch on and internalize it. Again and again: "here is my policy position - here is the Bush bullsit". Again and again.

What do you think Dean meant when he says: "I don't answer un-sourced quotes".

Now is teaching time. The Democrats have to teach us all, and all Americans about the games.

I think it is a brilliant strategy. And yes - we on this board could really chew off a little more. But we have to wait until a bigger 'consensus' emerges. Either the GOP will get scared of the strategy of the Democrats 'teaching others how sociopathy works as propaganda' and back down (allowing for discussion of policy and Democratic success) or - if it goes on long enough, Democrats and many other Americans will know the patterns and then understand the fight. Then things will be reframed in the way that we and the rest of the world sees it. It is not actually 'reframing' - it is reality. But it got stolen so you have to teach people what is going on - to teach them about how reality can get stolen.

Once people understand this new 'sociopath in the house world' - Then you can nail them on it.

[Pachamama]

39. Memo to DEMS and DEAN: GET A MEDIA ATTACK PLAN- NOW!

I couldn't agree with you more....Lets face it - compared to the aggressive lying attacks from the Republican Pit Bulls on the TV daily, not to mention the "PAID" Political Pundits spewing with their venomous bile on the news shows daily, we look like a bunch of wimps.

I wonder when the message is going to come across to the Dems (and hopefully it finally will under the guidance of Dr. Dean) but they are at WAR! And you can't walk out on the battlefield and play all nice and sweet and want to shake hands with the person that is holding a pistol and as soon as you walk away is going to shoot you in the back. They have been doing this now for the last 4 years, and it clearly ain't working....

I was at dinner with my In-laws, both retired Professors along with some former Colleagues of there's, all intelligent worldy and knowledgeable Dems. They were asking me what I think the Dems needed to do. The question came up that if I had the opportunity to sit down and talk to any of the Dems or Republicans to understand their respective strategies and understand what works and doesn't work, I said the following: I listed about 25 Dems (including Paul Krugman, Dr. Dean, Bill Clinton amongst others) that I'd want to meet with. I said that I wouldn't even bother meeting with the Repukes, there isn't anything I have or want to say to them. (I learn plenty by just watching them on TV - Don't need to nauseate myself by being in the same room). But I added someone I'd invite to that meeting that it seems the DEMs have totally ignored and the Republicans and Rove have tapped into - and that is Madison Avenue and Focus Groups. I'd meet with the top minds in Advertising and PR who are Dems (and believe me, there are plenty - in fact some of the best minds in that industry are liberals and progressives) and I'd figure out how we reach out to these simple-minded American Consumers that have been buying into the packaged bullshit from the GOP and Bush.

I'm not suggesting we become like the GOP and Repukes, but dammit, we need to start playing by the rules and games that they have established or else like my analogy above, we are going daily onto the battlefield trying to play by the old rules and they are shooting us down.

Howard Dean is a smart man....I believe he knows this and I'm hoping he starts sitting down with these people and coming up with a smart plan....

YEEAARRGHHHHH! :hi:

[Pirate Smile]

49. "someone I'd invite to that meeting that it seems the DEMs have totally

ignored and the Republicans and Rove have tapped into - and that is Madison Avenue and Focus Groups. I'd meet with the top minds in Advertising and PR who are Dems"

I was going to include that EXACT point in my original post but I didn't want to make it too long and I didn't want people to think I wanted to let them decide our policies or positions.

We don't have to stick our finger in the wind about which way to go - it is about the BEST way to MARKET the ideas we believe in.

Our image has gotten so warped over the past decade or so that I actually think a smart, effective ad campaign restating Democratic accomplishments in history and beliefs for the future - Social and Economic Justice and Keeping us Safe http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/13/182225/506
or something to that effect would be good. It may seem corny but if we had some good ads it could be effective. We need to do it now, not during the election season. Write them up and focus test the hell out of them before you put them on the air. Learn from all the research Corporations have done about selling brands.

We certainly know that if you connect with a brand at a young age(Tide, Crest, etc.) you will frequently stay with it for life. We did win young people and we need to make them long term Democrats.

[KoKo]

42. Richardson thwarted a Recount of NM....Nuff said? n/t

[AlinPA]

43. Most off our "leading" Dems are not street fighters.

[DearAbby]

44. Send this Idea to Dean... Go to the website and send this in.

The site is for suggestions, and views of "OUR PARTY".

You are right..Democrats have to take the fight down to their level. They picked the place. They have the advantage. That means the Dems have to be more ruthless in their responses.

[robbedvoter]

46. Randi explained how it works: you are sharp and demolish your opponent

they never invite you back. These "debates" are like wrestling matches where the dems wear the clown/evil costume.

[Pirate Smile]

50. The Democrats are like the Washington Generals. I love the explanation

about how Hannity and Colmes works - Hannity is the Harlem Globetrotters and Colmes and the Dems are the Washington Generals - it is their job to lose and make the other side look good.

[lostnfound]

51. Yes..we WANT to believe they aren't staged, but there's much evidence

like tonight on Sunday Monitor, Will Pitt was discussing the phone call he got from MSNBC the morning that he was supposed to appear on the air before the war. They told him he was supposed to say that the weapons inspectors were taking too long (?); he said he was going to talk about how they needed to be given plenty of support by the international community and given more time to do the job; the woman laughed and hung up the phone; he never heard from them again.

[union_maid]

48. You don't win elections by overestimating the intelligence of the public

One thing that many, many Democrats do wrong is to assume that the audience knows something about the subject being discussed. It's not necessarily so at all and it's much safer to assume that the people who are listening to you have never heard of the issue before.

Next, they have to stop being afraid to offend Bush's fan club. He needs to be challenged and a spade should be called a spade. Every single issue needs to be framed as soon as it's raised in simple terms. Bush's budget - war on the working person and on children. The class action legislation - war on the consumer and freedom. And so on. Simple, inflammatory, memorable phrases.

[bain_sidhe]

54. "Simple, inflammatory, memorable phrases"

F'rinstance (and in honor of your screen name), Bush's "War on Labor" is my current favorite. It evokes the "war on terror" phrase, makes you do a double take when you realize you didn't hear what you thought you heard.

[googly]

55. Loss of 2004 white house was also due to the same reason.