Maher says faith belongs to Republicans

[DemDogs]

On Imus this morning, Bill Maher said we should give up on things like Democrats of Faith, that faith belongs to the Republicans. He said we shouldn't want to teach the Biblical Genesis story along side evolution.
I thought it was nonsense. First, being a person of faith does not mean that you think Genesis should be taught in science class. Second, faith doesn't belong to any political party. That's the point. We don't need to go around talking about being lead by God in our political decisions, but it is useful to talk, as Edwards did in New Hampshire for those who saw his speech, about our moral core and how that influences our political decisions. No one who heard Edwards on poverty could misunderstand the religious implications, although he did not mention them. We sure don't say to America, "Hey, you got religion? Better head over to the GOP."

[demnan]

1. Maher is highly amusing

but his opinions shouldn't be taken all that seriously, he is a comedian first, and has been known to say things to shock people.

[BlueEyedSon]

6. I think he believes this one. You don't have to agree.

But if church & state should be truly separate, and the purpose of party politics is to elect people to "state" (i.e. gov't) positions, what relevance should religion have to parties?

None. Get religion out of the electoral process entirely.

"Hey, you got religion? Better head over to your Church." Leave your religious fairytales and and antediluvian morality home when you play politics. Unless you think it's fair for Churches, as political playas, to pay taxes.

[me b zola]

50. Well said

eom

[okieinpain]

to get religion out of politics the large number of people who

do not go to church, and who do not vote will have to get involved in politics. all we need to do is find someone who won't mind sticking it to the churches once he's in power and that will put an end to religion getting involved in politics

[Pirate Smile]

2. Maher is wrong on that. He really doesn't like religion, especially

organized religion. He is certainly entitled to his POV and he frequently makes good points about it but Democrats cannot and will not concede religious Americans - that sounds like a good way to become a permanent minority party.

[DARE to HOPE]

51. He doesn't like women, especially, either...

I think he is still working through some childhood scars. But he does not feel like he can talk about this subject, so he doesn't think anyone else should either.

I for one have been laboring away in the vineyard for 30 years, including progressive activism in many directions, and I refuse to let this heretical export from the red states (ie, Falwell's idea of "Christian") speak for the rest of us.

[Pirate Smile]

53. I liked Dean's response during his press conference about Catholics.

He said that the Democratic social policy plank is almost the same as the social justice beliefs of the Catholic Church. Democrats need to make this point clear to people of all faiths. Jesus wasn't for helping the rich at the expense of the poor - cutting poor kids off food stamps and giving the rich tax cuts. We must re-frame this debate.

[Zhade]

55. "heretical export" is an awesome way to put it.

Nicely done!

[Warren DeMontague]

60. Oh, right, the "Bill Maher is a Misogynist" ad hominem attack...

With nothing to back it up.

Prove it, please.

[Warren DeMontague]

58. Neither do I, especially.

"Concede" religious Americans? No. But what we need to do- what we SHOULD do- is present values arguments, like the fact that doing dip squat 40 Million Americans, and growing, with no health insurance is not a terribly "compassionate" thing to do... while also including The Separation of Church and State as a "value" that should be respected and held pre-eminent in our society-- because it is one of the things this country was founded upon, and one of the things which is integral to true liberty.

What Maher is reacting to is the never-ending stream of chatter about how "values" voters (read: Evangelical "Left Behind" Christians, who we're not going to win over anyway) lost us the last election; a premise which is dubious at best.. and the response proposed from some quarters, which is that we as Democrats become just as sickly platitudinizing with PHONY trappings of BULLSHIT religion (the kind of "Christianity" that supports tax cuts and cutting funds for disabled kids- Thanks, Gov. Blunt- while calling itself "moral" for opposing Gay Marriage and Birth Control) and that we, in the process, jettison or soft-pedal commitments to reproductive and gay rights... And the implied subtext of all of it is also that secular or atheist democrats need to shut the hell up and get to the back of the bus.

[Demit]

3. Well, wouldn't that be part of Bill M's point? "Moral core" does not

necessarily equate to religion. You can be a moral person without being a religious one.

Dems shouldn't have to out-religious the religiosity of the Right. Me-tooism is a feeble tactic, and we have plenty of strength in presenting our moral code without having to resort to it.

[bryant69]

5. Yes and no

Certainly as a Christian Leftists it drives me nuts how much the idea that to be a Christian you need to be a Republican is accepted in America. So it's hard for me to want to cede that ground to the Republicans.

That said, I don't think the way to proceed is the family values route. I think that Leftist Christians need to show that the Societal darwinism that the Right Wing espouses is inimical to the ideas that Christ taught.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Zhade]

56. Good approach. This atheist agrees.

:thumbsup:

[Debs]

66. I agree

As a religious far lefty, it also drives me crazy. Especially when it has no basis in fact. How in the world did the dimson, get the nod as the good christian man over Gore who went to divinity school and regularly attended church, who spent his entire life as a good christian man even though even the right knows Bush the dimmer spent the first forty years of his life as an obnoxious drunk and a cocaine snorting party boy, whoring his way through every city he ever lived in? The delusions of the right border on insanity

[OnionPatch]

4. I love Maher but

he says some kind-of-stupid things sometimes.
Of course we should not try to be the ultra-religious party like the Republicans. But to just toss the religion issue out the window and say "it's yours".....no, I don't think so. Part of the reason we need to be talking about religion right now is that the Republicans are being so totally hypocritical about it.

[Al-CIAda]

7. I agree. Illustrate how UN-Christlike they are. -eom

[Guaranteed]

13. But that inherently concedes the point to them.

We need to concentrate on OUR real, American values. See my post below, #12.

[meppie-meppie not]

24. people need to to discern the difference between

pious religiosity and spirituality. The former applies to the GOP in spades the latter to the Democrats IMO.

[Debs]

67. I like Mahar

He should not however be seen solely as a liberal, his political opinions are all over the place. He is fairly liberal on social issues and fairly libertarian on many others

[lukasahero]

8. Watched a show on Discovery Times this weekend about Jesus

and I was absolutely fascinated. I figured I had a pretty good handle on the teachings of Jesus and all but this show put his life in historical, cultural and political perspective.

Here's the primary thesis: Jesus chose to lead a non-violent revolution to overthrow the "religious" political leaders who were subjugating the poor and sick (read: sinners) by making it impossible to "achieve" the "purity" required to enter the temples.

Sound familiar? Wish we had a Jesus-type around here nowadays.

[Pirate Smile]

14. "The Self-Righteous were wrong in Jesus' time too"

Someone on DU has a bumper sticker of that in their sig line. How true.

[FreedomAngel82]

35. They'd be the one's who are crucifing him

Not all republicans in general but their political leaders like Bush, Cheney, etc. who use religion as a political tool to get people to vote for them. Maybe Howard Dean can be our Jesus. ;)

[DemocracyInaction]

9. I just started a post a few minutes ago about Dems Getting Religion...

..the point I was trying to make is not that we out-religious the right but that we set the record straight. We have allowed that total anthesis of Christianity to be spewed by people like Falwell and Robertson and have never said that it is made-up shit put out by these preachermen con-men in order to gain wealth and power. It's time to call them out and public say they have perverted everything that Jesus preached about. In other words, they have NEVER been challenged and it's time to challenge them or they are going to end up totally dominating this country....and it's time to put a fire under the ass of mainstream religion while we are at it!!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. My take is that he is saying,

when they talk religion, we talk morality. They talk religion, we talk hunger. They talk religion, we talk equality. They talk religion, we talk justice.

Let them spout the empty rhetoric, while we show what the religious principles they supposedly espouse really entail.

[DemDogs]

59. But we need to say to those who agree with our principles . . .

that they have a home in the Democratic Party whether or not they call it their moral beliefs or whether they call it their religious beliefs. We CANNOT continue to concede these people to the right wing. On so many things, they agree with us.

[Warren DeMontague]

65. They peddle the fast food version of religion

"We can't talk about actual morality, but we make a good go of Gay-bashing..."

The reality is that there is a spiritual hunger in this country, due IMHO in large part to millions of people cut off from any sort of community, living among giant anonymous strip malls, eating shitty food full of High Fructose Corn Syrup and Hydrogenated oil, working crap jobs under flourescent lights, and feeling utterly devoid of meaning in their lives...

I just happen to believe the solution isn't, however, for people to check their brains at the door to Tim LaHaye, Pat Robertson, and a bunch of singing vegetables.

People know something is out of whack, but they don't know what it is... and then some blow-dried televangelist ginkus comes along and tells them it's the gays down the street... or the naked boob at the superbowl.

[Debs]

68. Good point

I think it has been consciously advanced. The destruction of the sense of community. I think one of the reasons the right hates SS so much is that it is a concrete example of this sense of community, I pay for those who came before me and those after me pay for me. Its a we are all in this together program that works and defies the concept of social darwinism that the right worships.

[hector459]

11. So does "lying" belong to the Republicans.

So does lying and causing the deaths of thousands belong to the Republicans.

[Guaranteed]

12. Yes, I agree. And WE have the AMERICAN values.

We have the founding fathers, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, civil rights, and the middle class.

That's our strength, and those are the values that WE have to push.

[Zhade]

57. YES! VERY IMPORTANT POINT!

Some in this country are pushing to break the social contract. This is unacceptable.

However, I do think it's right for liberal Christians to reclaim their Christ. I do not share their views, but the alleged words of Jesus were mostly pretty cool, and they should fight to keep Jesus from being Falwellized.

[sandnsea]

73. Uh, those aren't values

What is it that came from each of those that we, as a nation, value. Freedom, respect, tolerance, equality, self-reliance, independence, those are values. How do the things you mention, which are really doctrine, shape Democratic values? And is faith any part of that?

[Guaranteed]

78. The pieces of paper and people themselves are not values, no.

Liberty and justice for all is a value, though.

The inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are values.

The 14th Amendment, equality under law, and Martin Luther King's dream are values. "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."

The idea that everyone deserves a living wage is a value.

"No taxation without representation" is a value. DEMOCRACY is a value.

The idea that every American has the right to practice their religion in the way that they please, or not at all, is a value.

There's plenty more where those came from.

[sandnsea]

86. Digging deeper

liberty, justice, religious freedom, equality,
Republians would say those are their values.

They have taking the basic tenets of our country and transformed them to include upholding life, self-reliance, independence, defenders of security, hard workers, the economic backbone.

What are we?

[Guaranteed]

87. But they don't uphold them.

They take every chance they get to destroy our freedoms and the foundations of democracy around us.

[sandnsea]

88. Wha??

"upholding life, self-reliance, independence, defenders of security, hard workers, the economic backbone."

Oh yes they do. I certainly don't agree with their Darwinian cultural philosophy, but they absolutely do live by it. These are their values.

Again, what are ours?

[Guaranteed]

90. No, these:

"liberty, justice, religious freedom, equality."

Those are ours, not theirs. They don't give a crap about any of them. There are countless examples for each of why they are ours.

As far as those second ones:

Life: They're pro-death penalty. They start wars on a whim. (and here I'm talking about the neo-cons, mind you). They're against healthcare for all Americans. Some of them engage in lynchings, even. Basically, they delight in death, all the time. I see it everywhere.

Self-reliance: They've probably got this one down. Unfortunately, I don't necessarily BELIEVE in it. I think it's in our country's best interest to help others, instead of leaving them on their own.

Independence: Is this the same as self-reliance? Could you be more specific?

Defenders of security: See my sig line. Oh, yeah- Where's Osama? And when was the last time you heard a neo-con ask that question?

Hard workers: You mean like the Chimp? Oh, they're only referring to blue-collar people. Well, of course they want those working for them to work harder. In any case, we're not only for hard work, we're for a living wage.

Economic backbone (Not in relation to "hard workers"): Massive trade and federal budgets deficits. Enron-style accounting. Tax cuts for the wealthiest, and the tax burden going to the poorest. Regressive taxation. These are American values?

[sandnsea]

91. Defining US

Ignore what they think they are and keep wondering why they don't listen to us.

You can argue AGAINST them seven ways from Sunday. But until you can define US, exactly the way I just defined them, we lose.

I'm thinking we start with the antithesis of "male authoritarian society".

[zbdent]

15. Republicans seem to preach absolutisms, at least when it is about

EVERYBODY ELSE.

Now, when it comes to themselves (being caught with the hand in the cookie jar, or girl scoout as the case may be), then they find that "gray area" . . .

[satya]

16. I'm not a religious person, but I disagree with Maher on that one.

And I would be willing to bet you will find more Democrats who are true followers of Christ than in the GOP. They just aren't trying to shove it down every one else's throat, or make their religious views public policy or the law of the land.

[LittleClarkie]

18. I was very proud of my "Christians for Kerry" button during the campaign

And I thought it was one of my more effective ones too.

I'd get "People of faith for Kerry" buttons and the Christian ones for the people in my church, who even though they're right in the middle of Freepertown were overwhelmingly pro-Dem. I'd say we were at least 75% Dem if not more at my church.

I hadn't realized that until I got the guts up to go to church wearing a Kerry button. I had decided it wasn't coming off no matter where I was going. Turned out most of the people I go to church with gave me the thumbs up, and asked for buttons and signs. I was proud of my church this year during the campaign.

[FreedomAngel82]

36. Very nice on your church

I'm pretty sure majority of my church was for Bush even though I never saw anybody with a bumper sticker except for my car with my Kerry sticker. My brother told me one Wednesday night the college class talked about politics and world events and everybody there but him and me were Bush supporters. I wish I was there that night to lay it on them. :grr: (If you're wondering I live in the south so heh heh).

[satya]

39. That's great! I, too, learned there were a lot of Kerry supporters in my

traditionally GOP town. I always got positive responses when I wore my Kerry buttons. And I still see a lot of K/E bumperstickers around here, too.

Sounds like you found the right church! I'm glad to hear that people like you are not letting the pseudo-christians in the GOP RW highjack your faith.

[GOPBasher]

17. I like Maher, but I totally disagree here.

Our moral principles -- helping the poor, protecting the environment, etc. -- are well in line with Christian moral principles.

[realFedUp]

19. If Maher actually took the time to read what Jesus said...

It's the same morals as most liberals would
agree with. Read gospel of Matthew for Jesus's sermon
on the mount.

[Guaranteed]

20. But in saying that you're telling them that they are on the right track

when they push their religious shit on people.

It's about the law. Not religion.

You're letting them suck you into a RELIGIOUS debate. That is not what we want.

We want to tell them that we don't give two shits what their religion says. What matters is what our country was FOUNDED on. Equality among men. Inalienable rights. etc. etc.

[realFedUp]

44. There are Christians who follow Christ's teachings and those who don't

and we who consider ourselves followers
but are certainly not perfect want a discussion
in this country that makes it clear that
Bush Inc. and some of the snake oil salesmen
calling themselves Christians are certainly
not advocating policies that are Christian.
Jesus would have overturned their money
changing tables as well.

We who are religious in this country are
not going to roll over any longer, ducking
blows from those who paint all Christians
as the rightwing people who profess to follow
Christ and at the same time have an agenda
that hates and serves some but not others.

So what athiests et al who profess to want
the truth, justice and equal rights for all
need to help us get the message out that
this administration and some of its pals
are not following Christ's teachings.

If you all don't think that religion should
be brought into the political arena or
discussion, you are missing the big elephant
in the room because the right wing has some
dangerous "Christian" groups in political office
and are making policies for you, even as you
want to ignore them. To ignore their influence
is foolhardy.

[Guaranteed]

45. First off, I'm not an atheist.

Secondly, I'm saying that we have to address this with a counter-argument using counter-values. Yes, very much the same values as the TRUE Christians carry. But you're talking about getting into a religious debate.

Is that what we want, here?

We don't need to replace a discussion of what AMERICA means and was intended to be with a theological discussion.

We have the principles already to counter this. They're written in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and the letters of Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin. They're written in the books of Paine and Hobbes (a theist, I know- but his social contract theory applies very heavily here, in our favor, I believe).

We just need to start standing up for American values. Let's not get sidetracked by throwing out the beautiful meaning of our country and the moral authority it represents to only replace it with someone's interpretation of God's message, which would just be argued over and exploited until the end of time.

This is exactly the kind of thing Thomas Jefferson did NOT want.

Besides- I think we'll lose.

[realFedUp]

46. again....to ignore the elephant is a mistake

Sure I want all religion out of politics
but it doesn't work that way in a less
than perfect democracy. Social challenges
are politics are religious and moral values.

You can't really separate them out.

And as long as "Christian fundies" are
influencing laws and lawmakers, we'd better
shine the light on them and what they are
doing.

To ignore is foolhardy.

[Guaranteed]

47. What you're missing is that I'm not saying "ignore it."

I'm saying counter it with our founding principles, and stay true to them. Don't allow them to say that God trumps our country's founding principles, cuz He doesn't.

I'm saying tell them that their theological push on Washington is as unAmerican as it gets. That's not ignoring them. That's scolding them.

[realFedUp]

48. ok

let's agree that a lot of the founding principles
match what Christ said. It's a moral set of values
that this administration is currently ignoring
for greed and power.

[Guaranteed]

49. Yeah, I totally agree with that.

I'm not anti-Jesus or anything. That's not what I'm saying, at all. Our country truly was founded on the BEST of Christian values, although they're very subtle.

But if we frame them in a religious way, I think we're giving up something for our current political purposes, and for the long-term health of the country.

[Debs]

69. I mostly agee with your point

The only exception is that if we continue to allow them to portray THEIR people as christian no matter how religious or moral the dem is those people who do little real thinking will just vote for them. As I said before Bush was consistantly described to me by freepers as a good christian man while both his opponents were demonstrably more religious than he was through their lives and this did cost votes. I agree argue the values, point to what is REALLY moral rather than the superficail, I have God on speed dial. I think it would help if it were pointed out how hypocritical this is. Too often I see the dem party being portrayed as antichristian. That propaganda should not be allowed to stand. If Carter ran today Rove would portray him as a Satanist

[Zhade]

62. I think you have to do both.

They will not give up their faith, we will not give up our fundamental rights.

We will be forced to come to an understanding, or we will go to war. It's that simple. We HAVE to do both, I think.

Not thrilled with it, but that's my take.

[FreedomAngel82]

37. All the gospel books are a good read

I think. If anybody ever asks me what democrats are about that's where I'll point them to (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John).

[Debs]

70. I point them to the Prophets

The issue of social justice just pours out of them.

[Bouncy Ball]

21. Maher is rather clouded up on that topic.

On other topics, I tend to agree with him, but on this one, he gets rather.....perplexing for lack of a better word.

It's INSANE to tell me, a Democrat who is spiritual to let go of my faith, that it "BELONGS" to another political party. How crazy is that????

My faith doesn't belong to anyone but me. It's not a limited commodity that only so many people can have.

And believe me, the religious left is just getting started. I have resumed going to church, only this time to a UU (liberal) church and my husband and daughter are joining me. My liberal best friend and her liberal parents, who have become agnostic over the years, are very interested in going with us to this liberal, all-encompassing church, too.

I'm not stopping because Maher said to, LOL!

[Guaranteed]

22. Who does the idea that religion should be forced into government

policy belong to?

That belongs to the Republicans. And that's where we need to oppose them, because they're wrong.

I think that's what he's trying to say.

[Bouncy Ball]

29. Well if that's what he's trying to say, I totally agree.

I yearn for the day when someone can run for office without their personal life being a big deal, especially without the constant questions about their religion, etc.

[txaslftist]

23. What a dumb thing to say...

Democrats are the party of tolerance, peace, forgiveness, compassion...

all solid Judeo-Christian values.

Republicans are the party of the money-lenders and Pharisees. Jesus would have kicked them out of the temple where they make their filthy lucre.

GWB claims to be a Methodist. Does he know that the Methodist church was founded as a denomination for the purpose of opposing capital punishment?

Of course he doesn't know. It was probably the church closest to his house or the one Rove picked for him to attend.

[Guaranteed]

25. Yes, those are our values- but not for religious reasons.

You're letting them get their foot in the door with this garbage. Don't let them do that.

[txaslftist]

38. Letting "who" get their foot in the door?

Religious folk? Hell, I'm religious.

I say open the door wide and let the religious and the irreligious in to our party. Not all religious folk are fundies or pharisees. You're describing Religious Republicans.

Religious democrats are a different breed of cat.

[Guaranteed]

40. I'm somewhat religious myself.

But it doesn't belong in our governmental policies, no matter what it is. That's what I'm saying.

When you let them drag you into a religious argument, you're conceding to them that it's alright to allow religious beliefs to affect government policy.

[Mr Rabble]

26. I think its fairly obvious what he is saying is that

if you are so stupid to believe that the rapture is coming, that the democrats have no chance of getting your vote.

The rapture is not coming. Ever.

We have a better shot of meeting Osiris, after we pass than seeing the 4 horsemen riding into Times Square.

He is just being honest. Many people don't like that.

Again, if you believe that the end times are nigh- we CANT reach you. So, why bother to try?

Democrats must indeed go after people "of faith", but not by becoming people "of faith". Rather, the Dem's need a clear, positive message, with an echo chamber like that of the right. Getting people to hear the message, is sometimes more important than the message itself.

[Guaranteed]

27. YES. A clear, strong, AMERICAN message, with an entirely

different basis.

[Bridget Burke]

32. Actually, there are some Democratic "people of faith"

They post here.

Bill Maher does have certain "issues"....

[txaslftist]

43. Yes... I don't think our party needs to welcome the Rapturists...

They seem not to take the long view of policies.

[SpaceBuddy008]

28. Upper hand by proving Repubs generally warship False Idols

and repel by over prosthelizing and shoving their vengeful god down others throats.

worship hero figures, hide behind some god = absolve personal responsibility and thinking for yourself, forfeiting your humanity, free will and a trap where humility becomes impossible.

www.thebattleforamerica.com

[CWebster]

30. Maher has his limitations. nt

[tinfoilinfor2005]

31. Just like tainted food,

I think Bill got into some "bad religion" when he was younger and it put him off of it for good. At least that is what he has alluded to many times on t.v.
For those of us who think that God and religion often part ways, it is sometimes difficult to understand how they can co-exist. But religion plays an important part in many families, often being the basis of their source of comfort, and the cornerstone of their traditions. They aren't religious cult nuts and fanatics, but rather regular normal folks who find strength in their beliefs. I think they are the most apt to find Bill's flippant religious remarks insulting. And that is a shame, because I don't think he means to be insulting to them. The cuckoos out there who his remarks are meant for just don't watch him anyway.

[chuckhoward]

33. The best treatise on this topic...

...is currently Jim Wallis' "God's Politics." You can get a free download of Chapter 1 here http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=registration.godspolitics&returnURL=action%3Dspecial%2Edisplay%26item%3D050111%5Fgodspolitics

It's an excellent book regardless of whether you are a Christian, a Jew, an atheist or an agnostic.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. I don't think so

I'm religious and I'm NOT going to the GOP. The Gop knows jack about religion excpet how to use it to gain votes. That's all they do. Around the elections they all talk about faith and family values and all that nonsense. But when it's not around the election then they are the biggest hypocrites. Not all of them I'm sure but as a party.

[Guaranteed]

41. Okay, what he said is being REALLY distorted now. nt

[Tactical Progressive]

42. I think if Dems want to 'compete' in political religiosity

they should begin to pointedly differentiate their message:

- as one of living the values that Christianity is supposed to represent, like society supporting the weak and the poor.

- versus the corrupted values of greed, bigotry and dishonesty that the right wing has perverted into their brand of Christianity.

They should in effect proclaim themselves the true Christians versus pretend Christians, iow the truth, and not back down. I'm talking about offense.

It is a case that only true Christians can make with authority. They don't care what outsiders think, so Christians that want real Christianity restored are going to have to start stepping up loudly and do this themselves.

I have no idea how well truth would sell to an America grown unashamedly comfortable with lies and greed masquerading as 'moral values', but what do you have to lose? The right certainly wouldn't like it, for they like nothing more than their own triumphalism at any cost, even their souls. But there may be many others who would listen with an open heart.

The ball is in your court, Christians. We can't help you on this.

[meppie-meppie not]

54. I just hope that maybe one day, just maybe

I hope to God the pious, self-righteous, self-serving GOP "Christian's" get smacked up the side their heads with a 4X4 of enlightenment sometime soon.

[IndyPriest]

52. Depends what kind of faith Maher was referring to.

There's a universe of difference between RW and progressive faith. Maher's a pissed off Catholic. And, from what he has said, he has pretty good reason to be. There is a Catholic fundamentalism that's every bit as bad as Protestant fundamentalism. So it's the lens he looks through. That's what he probably thinks "faith" is about. He's probably not aware that there even is a progressive Christian faith possible. Which isn't surprising. Most Americans aren't aware of it, either. The only people making any noise are the fundamentalists.

[LinuxInsurgent]

61. I think that what Maher is saying

is that those that vote according to religious precepts tend to be, for the most part, traditionalists who find conservative agendas more appealing...and I tend to agree...historically, people whose religion is a major part of their identity, politics, and lives, don't vote for liberal agendas, but conservative ones. This is true in pretty much every culture in the world...religion is almost always a mainstay of traditionalists, fundamentalists, and conservative forces in various cultures...the Left, the radical, the new, the modern, the secular, etc. has always counted on a minority of theologists whose interpretation of the main theological texts has always been out of the mainstream of their religions.

Maher is basically saying to give up that dream that we will convert everyone into liberation theologists...because much that animates the hordes of Jerry Falwell is the belief that their perceived "lifestyles" are under attack by modern changes and forces...thus...a conservative theological appeal is appealing to them, and not a liberal one.

we should fight for making poverty and injustice "moral values"...but we should expect that traditionalist/conservative/religious forces will always be a major block AGAINST liberal agendas in the country.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. Huh????

On Imus this morning, Bill Maher said we should give up on things like Democrats of Faith, that faith belongs to the Republicans. He said we shouldn't want to teach the Biblical Genesis story along side evolution.

Really. So, you think we SHOULD teach the Biblical Genesis story alongside evolution? In Public School Science Class? Is this an either-or sort of proposition, or do we teach everyone's creation myth? The Yanomamo belief that we were brought here by the Pelican God? The Hindu belief that we are the dream of Brahman? Frankly, then, I think we should stop calling it "Science" class and call it something else, like, maybe "Whatever I want to believe about the world--- independent of any physical evidence to back it up--- Class"

...I don't think Maher was arguing that Democrats should personally lose their faith.. That's everyone's own business, what they believe about the universe- and that's precisely the point that many self-identifying "Christians" in this country can't seem to grasp..

I don't think anyone is saying "Hey, Got Religion, head over to the GOP". What people like me are saying is, if you want this country to be a Christian Theocracy, or if you NEED your politicians to not only affirm your personal spin on faith but to pursue an agenda of making it the official word of the collective Gummint, yeah, in my opinion you probably would feel better there.

[Hell in a Handbasket]

64. i, for one, refuse to let them have it all. nt

[bgb217]

71. I like Maher....

But I'm not sure if I agree with him here. I think that faith does not belong in politics, but also that neither party can "claim" faith.

[bdiddy04]

72. THIS IS WHY DEMS LOSE

You need religous voters and you need pro-life people. I'm pro-life, but I support Roe V. wade. Which is why the dems need to emphasize proper sex education, morning after pill for rape and incest victims and adoption reform.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. If you support Roe v. Wade

then you're not "pro-life".

If you support the morning after pill, you're not "pro-life".

If you even support people being able to use ANY FORM of birth control without risking arrest, you're probably not "pro-life"

Those aren't MY rules. Those are the rules of the "Pro-life" crowd, themselves.... I don't know any Democrats who are "pro" abortion. What the Democratic party is against is making abortion illegal. Just like I don't know any Democrats who are "against" religion. What we don't want is to destroy the separation of Church and State. I don't know why supporting Separation of Church and State makes one "against" religion, but then I guess I don't know why gutting programs to help disabled and needy kids makes one a "Christian".

Maybe what we need is someone who can communicate in the dipshit language that apparently is the only one millions of Americans understand, because I hear people in our party speaking in English around these things, and people still don't get it.

Bill Maher isn't the problem, here.

[Kahuna]

74. Don't try 'n help us, Bill. "Kay?

:wtf:

You're not even a Democrat.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. I'd much sooner listen to him

than to someone who thinks we should "teach the story of Genesis Creation along with Evolution"...

From where I sit, that's what we're up against. Bill Maher is a socially libertarian-minded atheist who can't stand Bush and his cadre of repressive fundamentalist goons? Well shit, that about describes me to a T, also.

[Cha]

77. Sometimes..bill maher says the dumbest

things on the Planet and this is one of them..I'm glad Dean isn't taking that kind of ludicrous, inane, advice!

[BNW]

79. That is really stupid

he must have forgotten that many democratic black voters are people of faith.

[Disturbed]

80. I still believe in...

the Constition of United States and The Bill of Rights.

Those who believe in God and Jesus and also the above that are not right wing fundies should learn how to speak to their fellow believers and find common ground. It is true that many of America's Presidents spoke about God and Jesus. I don't condem them for doing so. I do condem them when they spit upon the message of Jesus.

I have never understood how any person can claim to be a Christian and also be a Fascist &/or a Right Winger. Jesus was not a Capitalist. Jesus was a blue collar worker, a carpenter, not a wealthy dillitant. He was a Socialist and a Pacifist and also believed in seperation of Church and State.

[mainer]

81. Maher has the courage of his convictions

As a secular humanist, I'm thrilled that for once, one of OURS has the courage to come out and say the things he says. that's why he's so shocking to americans. He actually has the nerve to say that people who believe in logic and science and NOT superstition have a right to voice their opinions too!

[Dread Pirate KR Read]

82. eh... Maher's an Athiest anyway... n/t

[Mutley]

83. bill maher is a clown...

he was a terrible comedian and an even worse "political commentator." i feel sorry for anyone who takes him seriously.

[ElectroPrincess]

89. Yes, he's all too willing to play the role of an equal opportunity a**hole

It pains me to say it but I have more respect for Dennis Miller than for Bill Maher. That isn't much BUT at least Dennis picked a side and STAYED with it. They both are jerks but Maher's crap stinks more. :grr:

[Warren DeMontague]

92. That's ridiculous.

Nobody worked harder and railed against Bush more prior to the election than Maher. I seem to recall he and Michael Moore getting on their knees and begging Ralph Nader to drop out of the race. He was thoroughly committed to defeating Dubya. Just because he doesn't sign on to the laundry list of some people's version of what "the left" should be, doesn't mean he's not a bright, articulate, and consistent guy.

It's clear some people have a problem with him, I'm not sure why...
I think what bothers certain people isn't his "lack of consistency", but rather the fact that he consistently draws his views from his personal outlook, which is essentially socially libertarian in orientation. Sometimes that gels with the Democratic Party, but unfortunately I've noticed that we have more than our share of control freaks over here, too...
Then I think some folks, in 2005 even, just can't handle an Atheist who opens their mouth in public. Hmmm. Too bad.

As for Dennis Miller, he's just a class-A prick. "picked a side"? The guy decided, like a large percentage of the idiots in this country, that "9-11 changed everything" ... when all it apparently changed for these folks was any ability to question our government-- or the neo-con imbeciles who have hijacked it...

[ElectroPrincess]

96. I rest my case.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. Certainly, but you don't make a terribly spirited defense of it.

on edit:

I'm genuinely curious how or why someone like Dennis Miller, who openly shills for * and the whole crazy, bloody, neo-con agenda... replete with lies and abuses and that entire nightmare.. can be less bothersome than someone like Bill Maher, who-- it is obvious-- can't stand the Bush Administration and the GOP?..

I mean, really.

[Guaranteed]

98. Miller was a liberal until the Bush administration came along.

He's as big a whore as you'll find anywhere.

[realFedUp]

84. Anyone else see Maher on LKL last night?

He reads us.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Hi Bill!

You Rock, Buddy.

:hi: :yourock: :hi:

[KissMeKate]

85. most "people of faith" believe the genesis creation story.

so if the Democrats are going to try to start pandering to Christians, then YES, we will have to start pandering to their WIDESPREAD belief that the world was created in six days.

There is no way around that. Most Christians believe the world was created in six days- because the bible tells them so.

[HootieMcBoob]

94. Bill Maher is just a comedian

We have to keep telling ourselves that. He's somehow managed to get himself taken seriously and he more often than not says things that I agree with and that are generally in line with progressive/liberal thought but every now and then he comes out with something that is just royally stupid. This would be one of those times. I have to remind myself that he's just a comedian.

[Technowitch]

95. No... 'hyper-religious, selective fundamentalist faux Christianism'

That's what 'belongs' to them.

I have 'faith'. I am Wiccan, and proud of it. It's not my damned fault that the hypocritical narrow-minded Xtian bigots want to oppress me and my kind.