My utter lack of "white guilt".

[txaslftist]

I've read a number of posts about "white guilt" in another thread, and I have to admit, I have no white guilt.

I'm white, and although descended from an amalgam of races that includes both native americans and african americans and just about every subgroup on the European and west-Asian continents, I certainly look white. I have ancestors who came here on boats in the late 1800s, ancestors who came prior the revolutionary war and ancestors who came in slave ships.

During segregation, none of my ancestors were discriminated against. I have ancestors who owned slaves. I have ancestors who fought to free them. I have ancestors who were slaves.

I am dismayed by the treatment that minorities recieve in our country, appalled by the discrimination that occurs in our criminal justice and education systems.

But I completely lack "white guilt". I am no more responsible for what my ancestors did to or had done to them during the time of slavery than I am responsible for what Cain did to Abel or Adam to Eve. I will do what I can to prevent and alleviate discrimination, just as my father did in raising me to believe that "ni...." was a filthy word never to be used while "fuck" was usable with discernment.

How can I feel guilty for the color of my skin when I had absolutely no choice in the matter? Should an ethnic Russian feel guilt for Stalin's choices or an ethnic German feel responsible for Hitler's atrocities?

I have to say I just don't believe in it.

[chicagojoe]

1. It holds a lot of people down. Gotta drop the white guilt. n/t

[DrGonzoLives]

2. Ah, but you're not Ideologically Pure

And that is the worst sin EVER, you should know that.

[Redleg]

57. LOL!

Yes, good liberals must adhere to certain orthodoxies.

[JI7]

3. i don't think it's really about "feeling" guilt

but more about understanding as you do which is better anyways since it's based on history and facts of how things are.

[jrthin]

4. Exactly. Guilt is

useless (and only further the rw cause), awareness though, is everything.

[Evacuation7]

5. Never had white guilt

And never will

[SemiCharmedQuark]

6. It's not about guilt. It's about acknowledging certain things that

are part of being white. These aren't asked for, they are just bestowed. You shouldn't feel guilty, but you should be aware that discrepencies DO exist and that these need to be corrected.

[forgethell]

14. Corrected how?

is the question.

[LeftyMom]

40. "White" is a new concept.

When my Grandfather came to this country, he was hardly percieved as equivalent to a Frenchman or a Swede. He was just another dirty Hungarian, close enought to a Kraut for most people (a strong incentive to learn to speak without an accent in those days) and definitely considered a lower class of person. Later that idea faded away, probably to create allies on the oppresive side of the civil rights debate, but it's important to remember that monolithic equivalent whiteness is a fairly new concept so many of our ancestors didn't benefit from it at all, thus undermining the whole "white guilt" phenomnenon.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

56. No, they are benefiting now though.

Yes, universal whiteness is a fairly new concept, but like anything else it developed out of a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

[pelagius]

7. "Guilt" is not the issue

Should an ethnic Russian feel guilt for Stalin's choices or an ethnic German feel responsible for Hitler's atrocities?

No. But they should learn from their history and be vigilant about preventing the same mistakes from happening again.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. It's About Understand ing The World Is An Imperfect Place And Some

Folks Have Advantages That Others Don't Have...

[CWebster]

9. This is actually an argument the Right uses

against Affirmative Action and restitution or to claim that racism doesn't exist.

Usually it is cover for unrecognized institutional racism accompanied by the boast of color-blindness.

[txaslftist]

13. I'm all for affirmative action...

...I don't know about restitution. Depends on for what, and shouldn't we restitute the American Indians first?

I'm for equal opportunities in education and the workplace, I recognize that there are effects of discrimination that carry on, including active discrimination, and I oppose these. I favor access to higher education for all, including those who are in poverty.

But not out of a sense of guilt. It's a matter of justice and all Americans being entitled to some of the currency of being the wealthiest nation on earth.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

17. I don't think I've ever seen anyone on DU advocating "white guilt"

only "white understanding".

[Old Mouse]

10. If you really felt what you say

there would be no post.

[txaslftist]

16. Really?

My denial of a sense of guilt must be based on actual guilt?

Are you a psychiatrist? I had no idea my subconscious was so "out there" that even I didn't recognize my own feelings. OTOH, you were able to read me based on a single post.

You gotta be a shrink.

[Old Mouse]

25. I didn't say it was based on guilt

I said it wasn't true.

You obviously care passionately about the issue. You have spent a lot of time thinking about it, and now want to share, even evangelize your thoughts.

You began this topic hoping for confrontation. You're trying to pick one with me based on inferring negative connotation into a very simple post. You EXPECTED people to challenge you.

This is beyond you not "personally" feeling guilt. You seek to promote a conversation on the entire concept of white guilt, and why you feel superior to the philosophy of social responsibility.

You have asked for an argument because you want to prove your lack of empathy is in fact intellectual superiority.

THAT is not a simple "lack of guilt"

If you had no guilt, there would have been nothing to write about. There would have been no post.

[txaslftist]

47. "inferring negative connotation"...?

Dude, you just said:

"you feel superior to the philosophy of social responsibility."
(I'm not socially responsible)

"... you want to prove your lack of empathy is in fact intellectual superiority..."
(I lack empathy AND I'm intellectually arrogant)

Earlier you said words to the effect of "by posting this you prove you don't really believe it..."
(I'm dishonest)

I don't think I need to do any inferring here, do I?

[Old Mouse]

60. nothing you posted

correlates with your earlier, incorrect assumption.

You thought I was saying you did suffer from guilt. A simplistic application of daytime Dr. Phil pop-psychology.

My position is simple, and I'm sorry can't put this delicately, and I assure you this is not meant as an insult, but as you opened an entire post on your belief that you have discovered a superior racial viewpoint the renders all minority complains of a continued system of disenfranchisement - a least in regard to YOUR personal involvement in the system - moot... you are a racist egomaniac in denial.

Good luck with that. Hope it works out well for you.

[txaslftist]

61. "you are a racist egomaniac in denial..."

at least nothing "implied" there..

thanks for the clarification.:eyes:

...and I'm glad you didn't mean that as an insult. If being a racist egomaniac is not an insult, I'd hate to actually be insulted by you.

[DrWeird]

11. I don't feel guilty about Japanese internment.

Nevertheless, I haven't got a problem with my tax dollars going to pay for reparations.

[Spinzonner]

12. You're albino ?

[txaslftist]

15. Heh...no.

Not that white. I didn't want to use Caucasian, because I'm never quite sure how to spell it, and I didn't want to use Aryan because, well...you know.

[Spinzonner]

20. How about "Honky" ?

[tkmorris]

23. Cleanup on aisle 5!!

I just spewed coffee all over meself. I am sending you the bill funny man..... :7

[txaslftist]

27. Same problem...is it Honky, Honkey or Honkie?

Damifino. "Cracker" is ok, but a little too southern. My ancestry isn't really from down south. Haoulie is too Hawaiian, and again, the spelling thing.

Just gotta go with "white", a word I've managed to spell ok since about the third grade.

[LondonAmerican]

18. i agree entirely nt.

[HamdenRice]

19. What about white guilt for the things you are doing now?

One thing that most white people simply do not seem able to grasp is that the problem of racism is not just the problem of what happened in the past. Racism is so integrally structured into our social and economic system, that routine choices white people make on the basis of their privelege has the effect of reinforcing the racist structure of society and harming the interests of people of color.

For example, where do you live? Real estate preference studies show that most important preference prospective white renters and home purchasers express of residence is that the neighborhood not be a minority neighborhood or even mixed. This reinforces residential segregation, which actually is worse than it was before the civil rights movement. By participating in the segregated market, moreover, you vote with your dollars to depress real estate prices in African American neighborhoods and help perpetuate the system in which black families do not accumulate real estate wealth the way that white families do.

Are you active in your child's school? Do you lobby for resources? Well, because white constituencies are "heard" more receptively than African American constituencies, you are bidding resources away from already underfunded black schools. Or, when participating in school politics, do you insist that your school receive not one penny more until racial disparities in educational spending are addressed?

We could go on and on. You appear to be clueless about the ways in which white people routinely perpetuate and benefit from their own privelege.

[txaslftist]

22. Baloney...

...that's just silly.

I live in the best home I can afford, not as good as I ultimately want, but the best for now. My neighborhood is mixed, but it is "low crime" because that was important for me. My kids' school is ranked very good because that is important to me.

And my black neighbor chose the neighborhood and the school for exactly the same reasons. Should we both collectively decide to give up funding for the new library addition because some poor district in Dallas can't afford one? What if the poorest districts are in San Antonio and the majority of students are Hispanic? Does my obligation to see the legacy of discrimination doesn't continue extend to them (hispanics), too?

Is my black neighbor free from guilt over the disparities because he is black and I'm not?

You are drawing arbitrary lines based on race in this analysis. Isn't that the original problem?

[HamdenRice]

28. Ask Ghandi or King

You wrote,

Should we both collectively decide to give up funding for the new library addition because some poor district in Dallas can't afford one? What if the poorest districts are in San Antonio and the majority of students are Hispanic? Does my obligation to see the legacy of discrimination doesn't continue extend to them (hispanics), too?

Yes. Yes.

Otherwise, you are doing nothing to end the system of discrimination, educational inequality and the perpetuation of white privilege.

BTW, I met many progressive white South Africans in the 1980s who would have answered both questions in the affirmative. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Next question.

<edited>

[txaslftist]

31. What about Ghandi and King's kids?

Didn't Ghandi's kids go on to become wealthy Indian political leaders? Didn't King's kids to the same thing?

Shouldn't they give it all back to keep things equal to the poorest common denominator?

[HamdenRice]

33. No and no

You are mistaking the children of Nehru, who happen to have the same last name, such as Indira Ghandi and her progeny for the descendants of Ghandi. The grandson of Ghandi continues to work in the field of non-violence and justice.

King's children are mostly pastors also working in the field of non-violent means of achieving social justice.

Both families are continuing to give back despite the enormous sacrifices they have made.

And no one suggested that they have to be as poor as the poorest. All I said is that if you are not working toward solutions, you are part of the problem. They are working toward solutions. You are not.

But even if they were not, why would that affect your choices?

[txaslftist]

36. How the flip do you know I'm not?!?!

FYI, my job involves representing poor people in court against the mammoth machinery of the federal govt. My job involves trying to keep families together when one spouse is facing incarceration, typically just for being an illegal immigrant.

You think reparations for civil war wrongs is going to mean anything to someone who is facing incarceration because he was driving while black or sitting on death row when they don't seek the death penalty against a white person who committed the same crime? What they want is an attorney who will fight for them tooth and nail, and that's what I give them.

Don't you dare put me in a box and say, "They are working toward solutions. You are not." I sit and hold a poor man's hand, whether he's black or white or green, and I'm the guy has to tell him he's facing prison for 15 years. I'm the guy has to explain to his wife and kids why daddy ain't coming home.

Don't assume I'm some uncaring person just because I refuse to accept YOUR definition of what I ought to be.

Sheesh. The cajones on you!

[HamdenRice]

39. Ahh ha! We get to the bottom of this

You wrote, "You think reparations for civil war wrongs "...

Who said anything about reparations? So this is white rage at the issue of reparations? Please don't put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head.

[txaslftist]

43. Good catch,

That's what happens when I'm trying to keep up with two threads at one time. The reparations thread is the one where the issue of white guilt originated.

And you are correct that you did not bring it up. You are incorrect, however to assume that this is "white rage". That is a characterization that is almost comical in its resemblance to "black rage", a race baiting term used by whites to justify segregation.

The "rage" -hyperbole, but fine- was at your specifically stating that I am "part of the problem" or "doing nothing" about race relations or discrimination. What that demonstrates is that it is YOU that is putting people in a box for disagreeing with your extremely unworkable and unrealistic definition of who I ought to be.

The fact is that I work day after day to fight the real, practical effects of discrimination against most of my clients. They are discriminated against because of race and poverty. That is a completely different thing than the idea that I should feel "guilt" over something that I have no control over, namely, my skin color.

[HamdenRice]

49. Here's another catch ...

If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I wrote "if you are not working toward solutions, you are part of the problem. "

I did not say anything about what you do or don't do. I never said, as you wrote:

"your specifically stating that I am "part of the problem" or "doing nothing""

Where did I say that? The fact that you make these things up makes it appear that you are chomping at the bit, and hence angry, and hence the "rage" analogy.

If you feel you are part of the solution, power to you. It is weird that you take this simple notion as a personal challenge. I wonder why?

But the thread was initally about whether white people should or should not have guilt, and I suggested that people participate in, benefit from, and perpetuate their racial priveleges.

I said routine choices white people make contribute to the problem, and I will add, even if they may do positive things otherwise.

Also, I just have to say of the overall thrust of this thread that I cannot understand this kind of thinking. As a black American, personally, I feel guilt as an American and as a human being, as a person who has an unsustainable lifestyle, simply because I live here and participate in this infrastructure. I feel guilty as an American and indeed as a human being because the US turned away Jewish refugees seeking to enter this country during WWII, even though I was not born yet (something in today's paper).

Proclaiming your absence of guilt is, as one analysis of this thread put it, just a way of rallying white people with a certain kind of perspective to rejoice in not taking universal or particular responsibility for their place in the food chain.

[txaslftist]

53. I cut this from your thread...

"They are working toward solutions. You are not."

If the "you" was someone hypothetical, I missed that. I assumed since you were replying to my post, the "you" was "me".

As to the question of guilt generally, should I feel guilty for something utterly beyond my control?

That is the concept of "original sin". The problem with it is that guilt is a negative motifier. With original sin I washed that clean in my baptismal grace, and with communion. Like you, I cannot wash clean my skin color, my eye color or my height.

I want a better world for my children. I want THAT desire to be my motifier. I want to work actively for a tomorrow that includes them and provides them the promise of being Americans, like that promise was described to me (ya ya, I know it was BS, but I believed it then...).

I want a better world for your children, too. The problem is, with racial guilt as my motifier, it can never be expiated. I will always belong to the race that was your race's oppressor. I cannot change that.

You feel guilty about America's role in a part of the holocaust (turning jews away). WTF? Your parents or grandparents either fought in a war or at the least paid taxes to END the holocaust. You don't have a reason to feel guilt over that, for as you say, YOU WEREN'T EVEN BORN yet. You should be proud of the role our grandparents took in liberating Germany, but YOU don't get a medal. You weren't there. You don't have to do time in the Hague, either. You weren't there.

[ldf]

32. really?

then i suppose we should all stop everything and sit on our collective asses, since your standards are impossible to meet.

if we are not addressing 100% of the problem, everywhere, then we are purposely continuing the vicious cycle, WE are the problem.

of course, that is an interesting angle, resulting in the ultimate number of of white people experiencing the ultimate amount of guilt. it also results in never accepting any of the blame yourself.

how convenient.

unfortunately it's a bunch of crap.

how about people taking responsibility for their choices?

i have made errors in choices in less than optimum circumstances, and i have reaped the results.

other's make bad choices in less than optimum circumstances and blame society for keeping them down.

everyone doesn't live in a world of perfect possibilities, and as expected, still manage to quickly screw it up for themselves.

but some live in worlds with fewer possibilities, and still manage to make it out. why do some, and not others?

choices. the main one being education. get an education and it is leaping the first hurtle to getting out. too busy skipping school or creating a nightmare in the classroom? first bad choice.

yes, there is discrimination.

yes, there are people who are doing things to continue it.

but no, ALL white people are not "guilty" of that. and i, personally, am no longer going to accept that burden. i am NOT a part of the problem JUST BECAUSE I AM WHITE.

can we say tranference?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

34. Oh geez, here we go. If you haven't succeeded you're lazy?

Please. There IS discrimination as you say. And people that have succeeded in spite of this are not the norm, they are exemplory. NOBODY asks for white guilt, all they ask is understanding.

You just don't get it. So many on this thread don't get it. It's just sad.

[HamdenRice]

35. That is a non-sequitur and absurd answer

Where did I say, "then i suppose we should all stop everything and sit on our collective asses, since your standards are impossible to meet"?

What I said is that many, many white people do not realize that their day to day decisions reinforce, perpetuate and help them benefit from societal racism. One thing we can all do is try to think about our choices and choose not to do so.

But if you militantly believe, without thinking, that you have no role in the perpetuation of evils, then you don't have to think about it or do anything.

I choose not to live in neighborhoods that presumably I could afford because I prefer not to contribute to racial or class segregation. I choose to devote a lot of my professional career to trying to aleviate poverty and human rights abuses -- in parts of the world and issues I chose to work on. I do not have to address all issues at once or else sit on my ass, as you put it. But if I do nothing, than I am part of the problem.

If you look at life outcomes across our country and across the world, it is absurd to say that most outcomes are the result of "personal choices" and that therefore we have no obligation to make the context in which choices are exercised more fair and just.

[ldf]

51. well then, let me state it

i do NOT KNOWINGLY do anything to perpetuate discrimination. (well, with the exception of being WHITE, that is.)

can i be any more clearer?

txaslftist asked:

>>"Should we both collectively decide to give up funding for the new library addition because some poor district in Dallas can't afford one? What if the poorest districts are in San Antonio and the majority of students are Hispanic? Does my obligation to see the legacy of discrimination doesn't continue extend to them (hispanics), too?

>and you answered<

Yes. Yes.

Otherwise, you are doing nothing to end the system of discrimination, educational inequality and the perpetuation of white privilege."<<

you specifically stated that YES YES, you ARE contributing to discrimination if...... and then proceeded to insist that we refuse to help anyone unless everyone was helped, while getting in all the appropriate buzz phrases.

in other words if you can't assist in addressing ALL the possible permutations of discrimination, then you are the problem.

are you sure that you do absolutely NOTHING that promotes ANY type of discrimination?

if so, then your insight to all things is absolutely awe inspiring. i can only act in ways of which i am aware of. i am NOT all knowing. nor do i claim to be, i just do what i can, within my frame of reference.

and for the poster who is throwing up the red herring of "blame the lazy", it IS lazy to skip school. it IS lazy to create a classroom environment that assures that NO ONE can learn, where the teachers are nothing more than police.

but apparently it IS the very definition of cool, and uncool is making a decent grade.

but it's all OUR fault.

i stand by my post.

there ARE situations that may seem impossible. but the first step to failure is throw up your hands and say it's impossible.

there are situations that a few responsible choices could make a whole new pathway open up.

[HamdenRice]

55. When I lived in South Africa ...

a lot of white South Africans took this perspective too: "i do NOT KNOWINGLY do anything to perpetuate discrimination"

But I was often inspired talking to white South Africans like Rev. Nico Smidt and Molly Blackburn who made it a point to learn what they might be doing UNknowingly to perpetuate discrimination. And the more they learned, the deeper they got involved. In a way my Black South African friends always had the advantage of more obvious and first hand knowledge of how the system was working.

If you say, I have no guilt -- end of story, then it's not likely you will ever know what you may be doing to perpetuate racism.

The real estate market is the most routine and severe example of white people making choices that they don't realize have devastating consequences for society. But dream on in your cacoon, if you like.

[mark414]

70. "i didn't KNOWINGLY participate..."

that's the BIGGEST problem with racism today. people do basic things that they don't think about that prop up the system and they don't even realize it.

i'm white and i'm still learning what i can do to achieve racial justice and equality in this country.

contrary to (what seems like) popular opinion, racism didn't end with the passage of the civil rights bills...

it's all around you, you just need to open your eyes a little bit more.

[txaslftist]

50. That is right.

If you don't discriminate and you don't perpetuate it, you aren't part of the problem. If you don't discriminate and you teach your kids not to, you are part of the solution.

I don't like the way minorities are treated in my country. I don't treat anyone differently based on their skin color. If my daughter married a member of a "minority", whether race or poverty was the issue, I would support that union equally as I would support any other.

I am responsible for the choices I make. You are responsible for the choices you make. I am not responsible for the choices YOU make.

[CTLawGuy]

68. so white people don't have the right

to live where they want?

or to have educational resources for their children?

Do black people have these rights?

[JI7]

73. of course they have the right

but what he said was true about racism being a big part of white people wanting to live in certain places. and it does hurt the black community as a result.

[HamdenRice]

74. No they do not -- that's the whole point

darboy wrote,

"so white people don't have the right"
to live where they want?
or to have educational resources for their children?
Do black people have these rights?

Let me turn it around and ask you: Do black people today effectively have the right to live where they want? To educational resources for their children?

Of course not. Don't you read the newspapers!?! The US is more segregated today than it was before the civil rights movement. Several states, including NY State, have been sued for not providing equal and effective educational resources for minority and urban communities, and the states have lost these cases -- showing that educational discrimination is rampant -- and still the states do nothing and fail to abide by remedies.

So does an African American have the right to live in any neighborhood? Of course not.

Now there are wonderful civil rights statutes on the books, but everyone knows that they are not being enforced, and are limited by the state action doctrine, which prevents their being used in many cases of private discrimination.

We are going backwards so fast, that in the last two presidential elections, African Americans didn't even have an effective enforceable right to vote in Florida and Ohio.

[sui generis]

21. you are right, but the entire world still thinks that

Germans today are each still personally responsible for the holocaust. You have no idea how tired this generation of Germans are of being told they MUST have "guilt".

I have no white (or other cultural) guilt either - my ancestors didn't even get here until the beginning of the 20th century, and 1964, and we're "inter" married all over the planet with family in Germany, Botswana, China, India, Turkey, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, and Croatia.

How on earth do the reparationists expect to make people of mixed cultural heritage "pay" for the sins of some people's fathers? It's all craziness.

[txaslftist]

24. Oh, I didn't mean you...

...sui generis. Everyone knows YOU are responsible for payments. Whatever else I post, Sui Generis is NOT exempt.

Haha!

[kodi]

26. its not about guilt but adults expressing empathy & understanding history

i am not the only white man who has been riding in a car with blacks and been stopped and have the cop change his attitude completely once he saw a white man in the car.

"driving while black" is not a crime, but its damn close.

[cestpaspossible]

29. The sins of the fathers....

I feel a little guilty about my Cro-magnon ancestors kicking my Neanderthal anscestors out of the cave, but, I've managed to deal with it.

[Spinzonner]

30. Glad to hear you haven't Caved-In

to the guilt

[DerekG]

37. I feel guilty for being American, but not for being white

My shame stems from being a tax-payer who helps fund the Empire (I am pursuing war-tax resistance) and knowing that my relatively relaxed life-style is a result of the economic exploitation of Third World workers, but I don't feel guilt in regards to my race.

[txaslftist]

38. You don't need to feel guilty for that...

The US also liberated Europe and East Asia in WWII, established democracy as an emulable form of government and created McDonalds.

All in all its about a wash. I'm ashamed of the fact that so many Americans were dumb enough to elect Shrub.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

45. The Soviet Union liberated Europe. If they had not helped, if Hilter had

not been so stupid so as to betray Stalin, Hitler would have won. You can't lay the win on the U.S. here.

[txaslftist]

48. If we hadn't been pushing in from Normandy...

...Adolph and his boys would have had enough Eastern Front troops to bust out of "der kessel" and drive the Russians out of Stalingrad.

I didn't mean to imply we won the European theater BY OURSELVES, but surely we had something to do with it...

[anaxarchos]

62. Really? Since the Germans at Stalingrad surrendered...

...18 months before D-Day and since Kursk was fought a year before, this is all news to Europe. Gotta pay attention to that history... Maybe some white guilt would help.

[American Tragedy]

66. Polish people I know sure as fuck didn't consider themselves liberated

Soviets raped and butchered entire villages, and then decided that they may as well keep the country for themselves.

And of course Khrushchev has the nerve to call the United States an imperialist power. LOL

On edit: I do not mean to diminish the primary role of the Soviet Union in defeating the Nazis. I only object to the description of it as "liberation".

[DerekG]

52. The U.S. had been the leading terrorist state since 1945

Read William Blum's "Killing Hope" for the full horror show; our government--whether presided over by liberals, like Truman or Johnson, or rightists, Nixon and Reagan--has used its military and counterinsurgency branches to destroy democratic movements in dozens of countries, all for the almighty dollar.

The sooner our empire crumbles, the better.

[txaslftist]

54. A little off the beaten track of the post...

...but I sure as hell agree with you.

Who the hell wants to live in an "Empire" anyway? Didn't we all root for the rebels in star wars?

I saw a book with the title "The Rise and Fall of the American Empire" and I thought, "Good. I don't wanna live in an Empire, just a free country."

[Pacifist Patriot]

41. Same here.

I think it is far more important to act ethically in the here and now and fight against racial injustice as it occurs.

[applegrove]

42. This is a Neocon trick!! Neocons claim Liberals are about guilt & that

they are all about pride. It is in that article on Disraeli I keep posting but will not today. They took much of what Disraeli (British Prime Minister and conservative thinker in 1800s) to heart. But had to fix Disraeli's thesis for the 20th Century. Disraeli felt that Conservatives would loose elections to Liberals, until conservatives got away from being identified as solely for the elite. Liberals were identified with new ideas and being open to the world economically. So Disraeli recommended running the old conservative party into the ground and then from the ashes building a new one that gets identified with patriotism (to replace elitism and draws voters from all three classes this was in England after all).

So while the Liberals are identified with internationalism, openness to ideas, transfer of wealth, etc (which are all horizontal in nature), New Conservatism is identified with the Vertical: patriotism, militarism, foreign interventions (and they rebuilt their voting base from these stands and policies). Militarism benefits the elites in many ways as do foreign interventions, etc. It also allows the elites control over a world that most find they have no control over - but that the elites are not quite used to.

So this is all fine and dandy and then WWII happened. Roosevelt's & Churchill's response was to embolden the UN (an international/liberal solution). The neocons actually blame Wilson and the Paris Treaty after WWI for creating shame in Germany. The problem with the holocaust was the shame Liberals had imposed on the loosers of WWI. Hitler, apparently was innocent.

Now here is the important part and the new thing the 20th Century Neocons came up with: Liberals are driven by guilt and shame. Conservatives are driven by pride.

Neocons have to do something to unglue the well accepted idea that fascism is a dangerous thing - because that is what seemed obvious after the whole of the 20th Century. Fascists use the tools of patriotism, false pride, etc.to control their populace and commit crimes against their people, their neighbors, etc. And fascists always ruin the place they are in - as they are nothing but rule of the elite in the guise of democracy. And Neocons, whose base is entirely dependant on motivating patriotism and entitlement in their voters to allow for outside wars thus renewed privileges for their elites, have to hide the nature of 20th Century fascism and make it all about the left (and they will try adnosium (sic) to argue with you that fascism is not a right wing thing). And that the left is all about guilt.

Liberals are guilty feelers. Apparently we are not driven by empathy. We just do not have enough pride.

I don't know about you but I find living an empathetic life is the only way to live a healthy life. It gives me community, good karma, attachments, hope, happiness, contentment, etc. When somebody tries to get you to equate your Liberalism with guilt - you may want to take a second look and see whether they are in fact a neocon in sheep's clothing.

Neocons already campaign without end to change 20th Century history and the definition of fascism and the dangers of patriotism and 'false pride' into something other than the COMPLETE AND TOTAL 20th Century experience. This is so that the elites the Republicans really represent can have their 'patriotic' base and the electoral power to be in control even though they do not represent the values or the needs of the vast majority of the population.

Beware of anyone trying to get you to change you values. Sociopaths will always try and get you to separate from yourself. They will separate you from your feelings and then they can easily lead you. Other things they will separate you from in order to control you are: your assumptions, your past, your totem (historical hero), your belief and love of the market that allows for a middle class, they will separate you from your belief system, your adulthood, your family, your country (the old America), your allies and your friends.

I do not think the elites of America have any right to be telling you how to feel. If you have so much less than the 'elites' do monetarily, yet you still have the wherewithal to want to share and live in a more equitable society, the elites have nothing of value to teach you

[applegrove]

44. txaslftist Interesting name you got going there.

you are the first leftist I have ever seen you was so obsessed about taxes that they put it in their name!
;-)

[txaslftist]

46. My spelling isn't THAT bad, is it?

Think Texas, not Taxes.

[applegrove]

58. Okay - texas !! LOL Seriously - don't take that white guilt stuff serious

Wanting to live in a world that values empathy over selfishness is nothing to feel bad about. Don't let them "reframe" your Liberalism.

I like to think of it like this.

In the same week that Princess Diana died, Mother Theresa did too. Irregardless of how you felt about the politics of her religious beliefs, Mother Theresa apparently left a bucket and a pair of sandals (those were all of her worldly possesions). Diana left a whole lot more.

Who was happiest?

[AuntiBush]

59. The Acceptance of all Cultures...

should be our theme, right!?!

Grew-up with a Genealogist. Paternally, I have 5 direct grandmothers and a GGGG Grandfather whom were all full-blooded Native American Indian. Also, Scotch-Irish. And one of my GG Grandfather's was African American. Maternally, it's mostly English, German and Wales.

So, which culture do I decide to accept or plunder!?! None! I'm proud to have so much cultural variants. It has helped me to see beyond any prejudicial thoughts, rather I look at the issue, not the race.

[Hell in a Handbasket]

63. i dont think its supposed to be literal guilt over whiteness.

its feeling bad about the role that minorites have played in the uplifting of whites in society.

[Pepperbelly]

64. I sometimes feel guilty about being a shithead ...

but then I get over it. Something flashy gets my attention and GUILT BE GONE!

[candy331]

65. Seems you think all is well now, I don't think anyone had a choice

in their race/skin color since it was predetermined before birth however what one chose/chooses to do after birth is the telling story wouldnt you say?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

67. If you are white and voted for Kerry, you should have no guilt!

[mark414]

69. well let us examine the concept for a minute shall we?

typically, the term "white guilt" is used by conservatives to assail white liberals who support programs like affirmative action. it is no different than terms like "death tax," "partial birth abortion," and "politically correct," so far as they have been completely made up by the right in order to make us liberals look like terrible people.

but what is white guilt, really? let us examine the facts.

FACT: africans were stolen and used as slaves
THEREFORE: a crime was committed, someone is guilty

FACT: black people, for 100 years after being freed from bondage, were subject to LEGAL harassment, lynchings, segregration, inequalities, etc. etc. etc., in the south AND in the north.
THEREFORE: a crime was committed, someone is guilty

FACT: even with the passage of various civil rights acts, black people today are still subject to DE FACTO harassment, segregation, inequalities, and as the case of James Byrd showed us, even lynchings. ask any black person if they know someone in jail and they'll probably say yes. ask any black person from the city how often they'll drive outside of the city, i bet it's not very often.
THEREFORE: crimes are STILL being committed, someone is guilty

white guilt, my friend, is NOT recognizing the inequalities that are faced by so many today, rather, white guilt IS being complicit in these crimes. if you're not a part of the solution, than you're a part of the problem, and by your narrow-minded view of the world, you constitute a very large part of the problem.

i'm white but i don't feel guilty, what the fuck should i feel guilty for? i think the idea of feeling guilty is an absolute insult to african-americans, or any other racial minority. none of my family lived in this country until after the civil war, but i am still able to receive benefits and privilege simply by the virtue of my skin color.

i didn't ask for this but goddamn if i'm going to just lay back and accept it. i will not sit idly by while PEOPLE, no matter what color they are are oppressed, and you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for this.

[leesa]

71. Nobody's asking you to feel guilty. We are asking you to correct the

injustices so everyone can move forward equally.

[donheld]

72. I don't know if it's guilt i feel

But i do feel great shame for what my ancestors did. I guess i wouldn't feel so shamed were it not for the fact that far too much of it still goes on, and too many of my white brothers and sisters are in great denial about all of this.

[sendero]

75. Feeling guilty..

... for being white makes about as much sense as hating someone for being black. I'm not a racist against myself either.

[seabeyond]

76. i dont feel white guilt, i also acknowledge what i society has

created to make other peoples lives harder or to make other groups less in their superiority. i prefer to see reality in what we do and maybe we can heal and grow. i dont think guilt allows us to heal. i dont believe beating myself up is going to do anything for another. being a woman i also experience being in a group where we are made to be less. where another group insists on me accepting their belief that i am not equal to them. so i know the battle and simply say no to it. i know my power in the experience, and i know another cannot make me powerless regardless of their effort.

i dont take the experience with whites away from blacks, what they face, but, i dont take their power away from them either suggesting they are helpless in the face of discrimination