IRA pub murder - Silence a blow to Sinn Fein credibility

[Stella_Artois]

THE Mafia culture of omerta imposed on nationalists in Belfast by a murder gang led by a senior IRA member deals a major blow to the credibility of Sinn Féin leaders who are already under intense pressure over their alleged links with criminality.

It is a chilling reflection of the republican movement’s reputation for thuggery that not one witness was willing to come forward to give evidence about a murder that took place in a crowded pub.

According to the family of Robert McCartney, the 33-year-old father of two young sons who was fatally stabbed in a pub fight which began as a shouting match, there were 72 people in the bar at the time.

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/opinion/Full_Story/did-sgPWMfg0pflLQsgDQQ5wn3uAIg.asp

I can't understand why some Americans support the IRA. They are criminals, just like the other criminals in the loyalist gangs.

[RogueTrooper]

1. It is because they have a idea of Ireland that is 40 years out of date.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

67. Well said n/t

[sendero]

2. Just like in the Middle East conflict..

.... the time when there were "good guys" and "bad guys" has long passed. They are all "bad guys" now, and neither side of either conflict has any moral ground to stand on.

[robcon]

3. Until this time, Sinn Fein tried for plausible reliability.

Some still believed that Sinn Fein was not the political arm of the IRA. I read Gerry Adams' book, and he tried to sell that proposition.

No sale.

[Stella_Artois]

6. Not the political arm of the IRA ?

Then why does he speak for the IRA in peace talks ?

Does he just claim he knows someone who knows someone down the pub ?

[robcon]

8. He claims that he speaks for Sinn Fein only.

And that Sinn Fein has occasional meetings with the IRA.

[Stella_Artois]

11. I guess he does

Since Martin Mcguiness has made no secret of his past leadership position in the IRA during the 1970's and it is only natural for the leader of Sinn Fein to have occasional meetings with the deputy leader.

[Bridget Burke]

4. This opinion piece doesn't mention any "loyalist gangs"

Another article at the same site pointed out that While the Government has not formally raised the killing of Mr McCartney with Sinn Féin, it has factored the murder into its hardening stance on IRA criminality as well as Sinn Féin’s refusal to acknowledge the role and authority of the PSNI and the gardaí.

www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgjPdF0TnzroosgDQQ5wn3uAIg.asp

So--is there a link between this crime and Sinn Féin? Aside from statements made by rival political parties.

Just like the robbery in the North. Who needs real proof?

[Stella_Artois]

5. Lets not be delusional.

If there is no link, and Sinn Fein has nothing to do with it, why are they sending Sinn Fein people round to the house of the victims family ?

"The family received their first visit from a Sinn Fein representative yesterday when senior party member Gerry Kelly went to their home in the Short Strand district of the city."

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4134359

The IRA did this. This isn't the police saying this, this is the victims family who are catholic and know the people involved.

Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA. Sinn Fein speaks for the IRA.

Besides, why should the article mention anyone else ? This is not some political act as part of a wider issue that involves the loyalists, this was a simple act of random violence carried out by IRA members known to the victims family, who then used their position in the republican movement in order to buy the silence of the witnesses.

[freddyc]

7. its not time yet

Its because the IRA wont disarm yet, having come under constant attack from unionists. Over 2000 loyalist pipe bombs since the ceasefire, they dont even make the news. its just tactics.

[Bridget Burke]

9. YOU mentioned the loyalist gangs.

Guess there aren't any, after all....

[RogueTrooper]

10. There are loyalist groups

but they do not possess the sophistication or the competance of the IRA.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

16. Yes and Yes

Yes I have been to Northen Ireland and yes I know people you both have, and still do, live in the North from both of the "communites".

Now, go check my profile you will see that I live in Dublin ( that's the one in Ireland not the one in California ).

And, yes, through all this, I consider myself fairly knowledgable about the politics of Ireland, Northen Ireland and the United Kingdom.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

43. RogueTrooper, that's all fine, well and good.

You never answered my question about the links between the Protestant paramilitary organizations and the RUC/PSNI or the Brits.

Bertie Ahern lives in Dublin, as far as I know, and if he gets his way the Union Jack will be flying from the top of Dublin Castle once again.

[DaveinMD]

44. these links are proven

they were responsible for the murder of Pat Fincuane. A defense attorney.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

68. look again

are you folks using the time diference between Ireland and the US, and my resulting absense, to score some cheap political points.

Shocked, Shocked I tell ya ;)

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

71. What would you like me to explain to Robert Hamill's family?

I would be gratefull if you could clarify that for me.

[DaveinMD]

59. exactly

There is collusion. And often that collusion has been aimed at innocent Catholic civilians.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

64. British Special Forces and their loyalist minions

My apoligies for the delay in replying. It was the diference in time-zones ( in honesty it was the pub calling ) .

I did not realise that you were asking a question about the loyalists and their links to British security services and British Special Forces. Yes, that is quite true there were links between some loyalist factions and British security servies and this is where the loyalists got their competence. Without the British Security services they would be nothing more than drunken blowhards with dynamite. What I ment is that the loyalist paramilitaries never attained the competence or professionalism. Now, that support has been withdrawn. British Special Forces are mostly deployed in Iraq or Afganistan and MI5 and SIS are focused towards the "Islamist threat" rather than the "Irish problem".

As for the Bertie Ahern. I think you do Bertie a diservice ( although full marks for the rehtoric ). I do not think Bertie wants to see the Union Jack flying over Dublin castle any more than any other Irish citizen does. Britain and Ireland, both in their people and in their governments, have a close relationship that is based on mutual respect, friendship and, of course, English soccer.

[DaveinMD]

40. more people have been killed by Loyalist Paras

during the the conflict. This is a fact.

[bettyellen]

41. no, they possess badges and fucking tanks and machine

guns. not always, but often enough.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

17. Or maybe we do know a "fucking thing" about Northen Ireland

and believe the the PIRA did this.

This was not an "authorised" killing but it was done by Republican paramilitaries.

[mrgorth]

18. If it was done

by an IRA man on his own than this is not an IRA job. End of story. You can say the guy's a scumball that deserves to die but your implication is that "the IRA did it" which is not the case.

[RogueTrooper]

20. Well, not deserve to die

there is enough of that attitude in Northen Ireland. There is no death penalty in the UK.

[cestpaspossible]

15. Beware of relying on opinion pieces to learn news.

You should never really read an opinion piece unless you are already aware of the underlying facts.

http://news.google.com/news?q=%22Robert%20McCartney%22%20%20pub&hl=en&lr=lang_en%7Clang_fr&c2coff=1&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wn

[ourbluenation]

19. Will we ever see a united Ireland in our lifetime

and the temporary occupation of the North come to an end.

[RogueTrooper]

21. No

because people in Northen Ireland do not want to unify with the Republic. Nor do most people in the Republic want unification as it happens. Unification will not solve the problems of in the North; in fact it would probably make them worse. The Republic are not the keen on having a load of gangbanging prods in their patch.

[ourbluenation]

22. My family in the north and in the republic

would disagree...so do I.

[RogueTrooper]

24. Sure

but you, and your family are in the minority of opinion in both parts of Ireland. All I was saying was that the unification will not happen because there is not a majority of political will in either part of Ireland.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

31. Sorry, Padraig

Polling data is how I know ( the polling data is not online, or certainly not readily linkable ). Polling done in Northen Ireland during the early nineties, not long after John Major became PM showed that there was no majority for unification. The surprise was that there was not a majority amongst the catholic communities. In fact it was the result of this polling data that started the peace process.

The Good Friday agreement always had far more support in the catholic communities than it did in the protestant communities. As you will have noticed the protestant communities are where the obstruction is still coming from.

As for the Republic...

Again polling data ( unfortunatly polling data is not as readily available as it is for US politics ) and a little hearsy. I have not longed moved to the Republic and I was ( and still am ) quite surprised by the venom directed towards SF and PIRA in Irish politics. SF dabbling in the Republic's politics ( as a result of the the peace process ironically ) has created a shift in public opinion in the Republic.

My on opinion is that the root cause of the modern troubles is one of civil rights ( denied to catholics by protestants ) rather than a desire for succession from the union ( that came later when the British government, true to form, started listening to their fuckwits rather than their liberals ). The solution is one of civil rights rather than succession, I believe. I think the closer intergration of the EU will make, over the years, succession academic.

[Padraig18]

32. If it can't be linked, then it's opinion.

This is 2005, and if it can'tbe linked so that everyone can examine the data, then it's merely opinion, and not fact.

[RogueTrooper]

34. Okay

I can't prove it because I cannot link to it. I belive it to be fact; and I believe that time will show me to be right.

[KissMeKate]

49. the economic situation has changed in the republic.

the polls might have something different to say now.

[RogueTrooper]

73. How has it changed?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

26. What makes you say that?

[mrgorth]

28. I don't know if Ireland will ever be united

but I disagree on the majority in the Republic. I'd say the numbers are close and getting closer in the 6 counties. A 32 county vote would be for a united Ireland. Of course, I have no way to prove that since it will never happen.

[RogueTrooper]

29. There is not a majority in Ireland

not anymore. Not since Ireland became the Celtic Tiger ( the view is that as both North and South are part of the EU then the diference is not what it once was ).

However, I should add that this is a relativly recent phenomena.

[Padraig18]

30. Prove that statement.

You keep repeating that as though it were an article of faith. What is your source?

[Stella_Artois]

48. This may be of interest

A 2003 poll


http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2003/Political_Attitudes/NIRELAND.html


49% of catholics wanted a united Ireland, thats a slim minority isn't it ?

Overall 55% of the people questioned wanted to stay a part of the UK.

[Padraig18]

25. 99% of Americans can't tell shit from apple butter, regarding Ulster

The grand pronouncement at the end of the O/P eloquently proves that.

:eyes:

[ourbluenation]

36. Padraig - (my son's name)

I'm with you in regards to Americans and their lack of info on Ulster and, I also do not believe for one second that most Irish in the repub, and catholics in the North, would not love a unified Ireland.

By the way - this "he" is actually a "she"!

[Padraig18]

37. Hiyas!

:hi:

[kerrygoddess]

33. Give Ireland Back to the Irish

The Irish have been fighting for a religious war for centuries. Quite frankly the time to Give Ireland Back to the Irish is long overdue!

I'm not condioning what happened as stated in this article you posted, however, the Irish people have just as much right to rule their own country as any other country.

What Ireland has suffered over the centuries from the hands of the British is incomprehensible.

[Padraig18]

35. "...What Ireland has suffered over the centuries...."

Thank you. Far too many people forget that centuries-long list of atrocities and abominations committed against the Irish people by the British people, and want to reduce this question to some sort of dry, rhetorical exercise.

:thumbsup:

[ourbluenation]

38. howa-yah!

When I was a kid I would actually sit in Sunday mass and pray that my Da would see a united ireland in his lifetime. He's 75 now. Looks like those prayers went unanswered. There never will be peace until the Brits just go. I hold no anomousity towards Britain - hell I never go to mass anymore so it certainly isn't a religious thing for me. They just need to go. Period. It's too small of an island to be hosting two parties...forever.

[Padraig18]

56. It is time for them to go--- for good.

I also bear no ill will toward the British people either, but it is my fondest hope that they go back to their island, and get the hell of our island. There is no argument that can be made for their remaining that does not serve to mock the deaths of the millions who died under their centuries-long, illegal occupation.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DaveinMD]

42. and these atrocities

are not just centuries old but very recent. The British government colluded with loyalist death squads to kill lawyers and civil rights activists. They introduced internment, diplock courts, torture. All this in the last 40 years. This is why Sinn Fein has so much support.

[KissMeKate]

51. another perspective

how many hundreds of years do they have to be in Ireland to be Irish?

My ancestors were scots irish- I think the six counties should join with the republic of Ireland as well, and detest the terrible human rights abuses wrought by the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the British troops upon the nationalist catholic community.

My point is, if the scots irish aren't Irish by now, does that make us all english, german, italian, irish, african, and not american?

I concede that many scots irish in the north call themselves british. But telling them to leave Ireland when their people have been there since they were planters during the Elizabethan era isn't really a workable idea. Plus, that rhetoric isn't helpful in bringing the two communities together.

[Padraig18]

57. Aye, they're Irish-- no argument there.

I've no wish to see them leave, and I would support no unification which does not guarantee them their rights.

[DaveinMD]

60. The British should leave Ireland

that means the British troops and security apparatus. That means uniting the 6 counties with the 26 counties.

[DaveinMD]

39. I fully support the IRA and am proud to do so

Learn some history. The IRA re-emerged during the troubles to defend Catholics against pograms that were sanctioned by the state.

They then fought back an occupying army. They are freedom fighters. I would fight an occupying force in my country. That's what the IRA is doing. Good for them.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrgorth]

47. drugs

No one in the Irish Republican movement has ever, EVER, been convicted of selling drugs.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

53. Yes Stella, I would love to see your opinion on the

murder of Robert Hamill in Portadown, Co. Armagh in April, 1997.

Do you even know what this about?

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

58. Hey Stella, what about Robert Hamill's murder?

Haven't heard an answer yet..

[DaveinMD]

62. the IRA

is a political army. They fight for a united Ireland. They came back to prominence because they were defending the nationalist community against programs orchestrated by both the RUC (the police!!!) and loyalist thugs egged on by Paisley. They then fought the occupying British Army. They made mistakes when they attacked civilians. But they have always fought for a just cause.

[two gun sid]

55. I too support the Provos

and I always will. When the sectarian killings began in 1966 who defended the republican community? The RUC? No, it was the 'Ra's. They won a place in my heart forever with their bravery.

[two gun sid]

54. Gerry Adams has stated that anyone who knows.....

anything about this crime should come forward.

Sinn Fein has abandoned the armed struggle in favor of a constitutional answer to the Irish Troubles. I support Sinn Fein and believe it to be the correct course. The IRA are on cease fire and have decommissioned weapons three times. To lay the blame for this crime on the IRA is totally irresponsible and a blow to the ongoing peace process.

As far as comparing the mafia to the IRA, I call 'bullshit'. Name me one member of the mafia who ever starved himself to death for an ideal or the organization.

Up Sinn Fein!

Brits Out!

[DaveinMD]

63. here here

there are so many heroes among the IRA. They are and have always been freedom fighters.

Joe McDonnell
_____________________________________________
Lyrics from Wolfe Tones
"A Sense of Freedom" 1983
Author: Brian Warfield
_____________________________________________
O me name is Joe McDonnell
From Belfast town I came
That city I will never see again
For in the town of Belfast
I spent many happy days
I love that town in oh so many ways
For it's there I spent my childhood
And found for me a wife
I then set out to make for her a life
But all my young ambitions
Met with bitterness and hate
I soon found myself inside a prison gate
Chorus

And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down the barrel of your gun
When I think of all the deeds that you had done
You had plundered many nations
Divided many lands
You had terrorised their peoples
You ruled with an iron hand.
And you brought this reign of terror to my land

Through those many months internment
In the Maidstone and the Maze
I thought about my land throughout those days
Why my country was divided, why I was now in jail
Imprisoned without crime or without trial
And though I love my country
I am not a bitter man
I've seen cruelty and injustice at first hand
So then one fateful morning
I shook bold freedom's hand
For right or wrong I'd try to free my land

Chorus

And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down the barrel of your gun
When I think of all the deeds that you had done
You had plundered many nations
Divided many lands
You had terrorised their peoples
You ruled with an iron hand.
And you brought this reign of terror to my land

Then one cold October morning
Trapped in a lion's den
I found myself in prison once again
I was committed to the H-blocks
For fourteen years or more
On the Blanket the conditions they were poor
Then a hunger strike we did commence
For the dignity of man
But it seemed to me that no one gave a damn
But now, I'm a saddened man
I've watched my comrades die
If only people cared or wondered why

Chorus

And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down your gun
When I think of all the deeds that you had done
You had plundered many nations
Divided many lands
You had terrorised their peoples
You ruled with an iron hand.
And you brought this reign of terror to my land

May God shine on you Bobby Sands
For the courage you have shown
May your glory and your fame be widely known
And Francis Hughes and Ray McCreesh
Who died unselfishly
And Patsy O Hara, and the next in line is me
And those who lie behind me
May you're courage be the same
And I pray to God my life is not in vain
Ah but sad and bitter was the year of 1981
For everything i've lost and nothing's won.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

66. more on this from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4270349.stm

[Bridget Burke]

70. So, why is the US Consul involved?

From your link: United States consul general Dean Pittman is meeting members of Mr McCartney's family on Wednesday.

There's a bit of biographical material at the end of this article: www.ilex-urc.com/default.asp?c=61&co=56

Pittman is a career diplomat; his last gig before Belfast was "eight months in Baghdad where he worked for the Coalition Provisional Authority assisting in the establishment of the new Iragi government." Interesting.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

72. I don't know, it never said why in the article n/t