Is this Administration is trying to bankrupt America on purpose?

[paula777]

For the past 4 years I have been absolutely bewildered by this Administrations reckless behavior. Tax cuts to the wealthy, an unnecessary and VERY EXPENSIVE war, increased military budgets, etc. Disastrous choices – blatantly catastrophic policies. I think they might be doing this on purpose, here are some reasons:

(1) They WANT to bankrupt the country so they (the very wealthy neo-cons) can buy it back for pennies on the dollar and become even wealthier. The government owns about 30% of all US real estate worth $100 trillion + dollars. In the case of a bankruptcy, they would be forced to sell it and all other government assets at auction for a fraction of the price. The few wealthy people that could afford to buy would become rich beyond belief.

(2) If we go bankrupt, there would be no more government services. People would have to turn to the private sector for … well… for everything. That means corporations would run every program (for profit) and we would be dependent on them. They would then fully control not only schools, utilities, pharmaceutical regulations, THE MEDIA – everything. No one would have any sort of say, because it would all be private. Republicans LOVE privatization – this would privatize everything.

I know that saying they want to bankrupt America intentionally may sound irrational – (maybe it is), but how else can you explain their policies. Anyone with common sense can see that is where they are taking us (bankruptcy)– What are other reasons they would have for doing so?

[lastknowngood]

1. Yes they are. Check the PNAC website it's part of the plan

n/t

[paula777]

11. Could you link the site. I went to PNAC.org and it's a college website

and PNAC.com doesn't exist. Thanks

[AG78]

14. That's funny

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Maybe that's why not enough people know about PNAC. They type it in, and they get to a college site. Damn conspiracy theorists.

[MissMarple]

15. Where on their site is it?

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. In a word

Yes.

It makes it so much easier to understand their behavior when you realize what these bastards are really all about. But that is not all that they want. They think they can go live in their bunkers and ride out the coming shit storm. Then when its over they will have the place to themselves. That's one of the reasons why they don't give a shit about the environment. Get the picture?

[ailsagirl]

40. It's beyond bizarre

How long do they figure they'll last if the environment is destroyed? Who'd want to live in a world without trees, flowers, birds, clean water, etc. etc. ??

Money and power can only do so much.

They're effing nuts.

[AG78]

3. Yes, exactly

Grover Norquist says it every day. He's even waiting for the WW2 generation to finally die off completely, because he feels they're the only link that prevents what boils down to a feudal society.

[ginnyinWI]

26. they feel totally morally justified, too

The idea is that if you are wealthy, you are playing by the rules and a good person. If you are poor, you deserve to be marginallized, because you didn't play by the rules (meaning work hard, use self-discipline, etc.) and you deserve to be a servant to the wealthy people, deserve to be ruled over. Social Darwinism. And yes, I've been reading George Lakoff. :)

[LSparkle]

4. Cheap, desperate, slaving workers

To keep cranking out profits for their corporations and provide cannon fodder for their wars. After all, they CREATE reality -- we only get to REACT to what THEY do. * really believes in the apocalypse; he's "bringing it on."

[FreedomAngel82]

62. The thing that is dangerous

about this is nobody knows for sure if this is true or not. I remember watching a program on the History channel about the final books of the Bible and the book of Revelations was SO close to not making it because it sounds really crazy. So how do they know it's true? It's fine to have religion and believe in everything but nobody knows. There's plenty more scripters in the Bible that talk about helping the poor and taking care of our home because Earth is all we have.

[XemaSab]

5. Yes

It's called "Starve the Beast" economics. Krugman wrote a lengthy piece about it in the New York Times Magazine a few years ago that's well worth reading.

Edit: http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/TaxCutCon.html

[paula777]

10. This is a great article. His conclusion isn't quite as sinister as mine

meaning he doesn't come out and say they are trying to bankrupt the US on purpose, but by 'starving the beast' he said one choice would be 'changing the government as we know it.' I HATE to say this, but if all this is true, then Bush isn't as dumb as we all say he is - unless he doesn't even know what is going on and it's his advisors that are telling him what to do.

[XemaSab]

17. Bush is not as dumb as we think,

methinks.

If you read his biography, he started out campaigning as a smart college boy, but that wasn't a winning tactic in Texas, so he became a swaggering good old boy. He was born in Connecticut and went to eastern private schools, for crying out loud. He's not a hick; it's an act.

[ginnyinWI]

27. it is an act,

designed to make him look like a populist politician. He's anything but!! The Repubs have flipped their image and convinced people that they are the party of the people. They paint us on the left as elitists! We've got to change that meme, and fast.

On the other hand, * is no intellectual. He has people smarts, and he's not deep or analytical. He's not dumb by average standards, just dumb by presidential standards. Totally incompetent to lead our country.

[XemaSab]

35. He's a sociopath

n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

37. you're right. Did you see the old clips of his debates in TX ?

He was articulate and acted intellegent. (Style not content). Then he went dumb, i.e. first prez debate. I do not think he is stupid, however, I think he is totally ignorant and intellectually lazy. Still the class clown who never did any studying at all.

Can you imagine have a job where you do better when you dumb down. That would be kind of fun for a week or two.

[ailsagirl]

42. I don't think he's dumb-- I think he's stupid

None of those guys have any WISDOM-- if they had, they wouldn't be pulling the crap they're pulling.

I think they're crafty, cunning, and shrewd.

But intelligent?? No way.

[FreedomAngel82]

63. Of course it's an act

Listen to him from four years ago and listen to him now. His "accent" is fading. Also listen to Laura. She still has hers as do the girls. My father is from upstate and has lived here for a very long time and compared to my mother and my brother and I he doesn't have an accent. Sure, a few words but that's it.

[Liberty Belle]

75. So true. Ever see the mansion he grew up in at Kennebunkport, ME?

It's a palatial estate worthy of the Vanderbilts or Astors.

[meow2u3]

38. Since when were the "beast" the weakest among us?

Personally, I think we ought to starve the BEASTS! The Beasts meaning all the superrich neocons--simply by restructuring the tax code to force the selfish superrich to pay back what they stole from the poor, working class, and middle class!

[goodhue]

6. Yes

It doesn't sound irrational to me. Evil maybe, but not irrational.

[fasttense]

7. Yes, don't you see Mr. Potter isn't helping he's buying. n/t

From my favorite movie It's a Wonderful Life.

[No Exit]

67. "Remember the bank run, George? You and I were the only ones who

kept our heads."--Mr. Potter

Greetings from Pottersville--where we now live!

[PurityOfEssence]

8. "Starve the beast"

I don't think they've thought it through to this degree, I just think that the greedier elements of entrenched privilege are reckless gourmands of the worst sort: they want more and more money and control, and they want to pursue it regardless of sustainability.

They think they're being cute with their Reaganite approach to getting rid of programs they don't like: just don't enforce or fund them. The logical approach here is to bleed the treasury white, and then shrug and plead public poverty for all of those selfish entitlements. Bringing down the temple in the process may not have really crossed many of their minds.

Then again, it may be a handy way to create financial panic that will allow them to play out their fascist takeover of the government that failed in 1934.

Personally, I think it's just addictive greed, much like a reckless eater stuffing himself at an all-you-can eat restaurant long after he's full. It's not that I don't subscribe to many conspiracy theories, it's just that I think the world is sloppier and more infantile than a scheme like this would suggest. Now there may be a few core nasties who are attempting just what you suggest, but even if that's true, much of the muscle comes from basic linear greedheads and bigots who want to garner all the power and money.

[paula777]

13. "they want to pursue it regardless of sustainability" This point is why

I think they have a long-term goal of eventually bankrupting us and then buying everything back. I don't know. It is a bit of a conspiracy theory, isn't it.

[me b zola]

9. Not irrational at all.

I've been thinking the same as your theory.

[Shallah Kali]

12. "I owe my soul to the company store"

16 Tons

You load sixteen tons, and what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
St. Peter don't you call me, 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

They want to go back to the days when business could have monoplies and charge whatever they wish. Like with the miners who lived in company housing, sent their kids to company schools, bought their food and other goods from company stores, and were buried in a plot in the company graveyard because that is all there was. There was no choice.

[Anakin Skywalker]

16. Read the Book by Mark Crispin Miller.

I found it just yesterday and read the whole thing in one sitting. It revealed a lot on what Shrub and the neo-cons and fundies are about.

Linky here http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/spring04/005917.htm

[Neverarepublican]

21. I just got it

from the Library yesterday.

[BlueManDude]

18. yes. create massive debt and defecit - then cut... n/t

[cmd]

19. Yes n/t

[tsuki]

20. Old person here. The more I watch Bush, the more often I think of Joe

McCarthy. There are similarities. I suspect we will one day be watching a total melt-down of Bush as we saw with McCarthy. Bush moves from one thing to another with a manic, destructive quality that is kept from exposure by the fear and loathing of the Arabs. It is the House Sub-Committee on Un-American Activities again.

Everyone who speaks out is called Un-American, aiding the terrorists, or some such BS. It is not like the Viet-Nam Era. It is pure McCarthy-ism.

And today, we have no Fred Friendly, Edward R. Murrow, or brave newsmen. We have Faux News from Aussie Rupert Murdock.

[ginnyinWI]

24. I see that too

Then they used fear of Communism, and now it's fear of Terrorism. Same reason--to consolidate power and control the masses. Same destruction to the morale of our country.

[truth2power]

46. "manic, destructive quality"

The author of "Bush on the Couch" says he's consumed with raging anxiety and chaos rules inside his brain. Seems like you picked up on that.

And, yeah...it's the fear, fear, fear. As long as they can keep their base operating from the reptile brain, they're invincible. x(

[tsuki]

50. How can you not pick up on it. Since the inauguration, he has

jumped from thing to thing, never landing for more than a few minutes, only to jump to something new and untested. Social Security, health care (deleting the employer business deduction of,) civil service, Syria, torture. All with negativity.

And if you oppose him, you're aiding the terrorist. A reincarnated Joe McCarthy, for sure.

THEY are out to "get" him.

[FreedomAngel82]

66. I have noticed

since the "re-election" that he has been moving VERY fast. The week before the inauguration he was at Camp David "working on his speech" and he does keep jumping from issue to issue. I haven't heard them speak of the SS "crisis" in a while though, have y'all?

[truth2power]

91. Jumping from thing to thing..

Yes, and whatever happened to that mission to Mars? Never heard any more about it. And in the 2004 SOTU he was talking about the worldwide sex trade. Whatever happened with that? :shrug:

Ya' know...the attention span of your average wingnut must be about that of a guppy. You'd think they'd be asking whatever happened to all the grandiose plans the Little Chimp had.

edit> typo. Damn things hide until I hit "post"

[FreedomAngel82]

65. Just like with those

"terror alerts" whenever Bush's raitings are low and/or he doesn't get his way with something.

[knight_of_the_star]

100. At least Joe wasn't POTUS

May the Gods have mercy on us all.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. YES it is ..plan to kill the "New Deal" which they refer to as "the beast"

it is all part of the agenda and was planned for many many years ago

[HeeBGBz]

49. Then that could evolve to the "mark of the beast"

To control who buys what, you would have to have the mark.

Which would set the fundies into an end days frenzy.

They are playing the part well. How are they manipulating the masses through their beliefs?

[flyarm]

23. yes he is!! look up

" globalization" by greg palast..see what the * family and cabal did to argentina..they were the testing grounds for what they are now doing to us!!

fly

[paula777]

28. That is unbelievable. I'm posting a link/article from this site for

anyone interested. Fucking unbelievable greed!

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=128&row=1


Gregory Palast: The US Treasury has 51%, is a 51% percent shareholder in the World Bank. Which if the US were to use it for good, that's a hell of a lot of power. That's not such a bad idea. The problem is that it has been pushing an agenda, which is very very helpful to a few corporations in corporate America. And not necessarily America but corporate America which are two quite different things. So for example, you take a company like Enron which had supposedly 80 billion in sales but very few employees compared to their sales. This isn't creating employment. Under the World Bank rules, under IMF rules, under the conditionalities for borrowing. Every single nation, every single nation that borrows from the IMF and the World Bank is given the conditionality of selling off their water systems, selling off their electric utilities. Golly who does that benefit? Well a big subsidiary of Enron's was Azurex, which was a company created to absorb these newly privatized water systems. So some one wins in this game and some one loses. And of course we're beginning to see the big loser is now Argentina. The collapse of Argentina is a very serious business for the globalizers because they could not point to one single success for the Reaganite, Thatcherite plan except for Argentina. They kept saying, heres our big success story, we have reshaped this economy. We've gotten rid of the old Peronist labor unions and we've gotten rid of all the State enterprises and we sold off the state banks and this is a booming economy. Well it wasn't a booming economy. In 1995 the Economics Minister who also was the head of the of the central bank, a man named Cabio embarked on a program of selling off every thing in site to US and European corporations. Argentina was an oil exporting nation so it sold it's oil to Repsol of Spain. Buenos Aires' water went to Azurex a subsidiary of Enron, Vivendi of France bought up other water systems throught the country. All of the power lines were privatized. The labor unions were smashed and the currency was pegged to the US dollar. Which meant that the US treasury literally owned the currency of this nation, this was very costly to Argentina, because they had to literally borrow these dollars to maintain their currency. Every peso in Argentina had to be backed by a US dollar. But it looked like they were doing well. The reason they looked like they were doing well for two years, which is not a long time in economic life, is because they were selling everything in sight. Now if you sold your house, if you sold car, you could run out and say look how rich I am, look how successful I am. Well you've just sold your house and car, unless your going to live out in the rain and walk every where on the planet, your going to have to get your house and car back and your going to have to lease them now from some one else that owns them. So suddenly the water charges were doubled, suddenly the electricity charges went through the roof, suddenly they had to buy their money literally from the US treasury, buy the money at very high interest rates. While you may pay 4 percent, 5 percent and maybe 8 percent if you're a big corporation borrowing in us dollars. Argentina was paying 10, 20, 30 percent to borrow dollars. So it didn't take long if Argentina has to borrow at 20 percent and it has no assets because it sold them off, it didn't take long for this game to collapse. Pretty soon the so called riches of selling off all the nations assets quickly disappeared. And all that was left was the debt. Now Argentina which once fed Latin America, was the rancher for Latin America, exporting beef, was the bread basket for Latin America. Suddenly you've got millions people scouring the streets for garbage to eat. And that is the miracle case, that is the number one example of a success listed by the IMF and the World Bank. That was their answer to Joe Stiglitz, that was their answer to me. Look at Argentina. Well baby look at Argentina today.

[applegrove]

25. Yes - he is trying to bankrupt the 'government' so he can make

changes. Just like Reagan did to the Soviets.

Isn't it nice to know that the GOP sees your own government, as built by Roosevelt, as as much of an enemy as the former communist government of the Soviet Union was?

[gristy]

29. Yes. And I'll take it one step further.

We are under attack. They have no basic interest in their base, the upper class, the rich, or the powerful, let alone the weak or downtrodden. Their only agenda is to wage war against and defeat the United States.

[Quakerfriend]

30. I think this for certain but,

Why is it taking so long for the sheeples to figure it out and react. I mean their policies make no sense: Outsourcing is the obvious one that comes to mind.

When will the masses get out in the streets and get ROWDY???!!!:bounce:

[borg5575]

31. They are indeed.

They are true believers who want to take us back to the days of Calvin Coolidge.

[KayLaw]

32. I think so

I was just thinking about it today. Can you imagine what would happen if they got rid of income tax and replaced it with a sales tax? Wouldn't that just about kill the working class? Then Bush is talking about free trade again today. . . Social Security. . .Unfunded mandates for public schools. . .Bankruptcy reform. . .blowing huge sums of money on just about anything to create a huge deficit. . .sounds like a plan to me!

[DU GrovelBot]

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[sarahlee]

34. Yes

It was the Reagan policy to bankrupt the country so they could get rid of all the "socialist" programs.

They have never stopped working towards that.

[Quixote1818]

36. My Dad said this three years ago and low and behold he was right.

I am serious, my Dad who is 76 and an FDR Democrat told me he thought their plan was to bankrupt the country to do away with everything FDR put in place. That's exactly what they are up to and my Dad is one smar fellow.

[ananda]

39. because they can

Whatever neocons are doing according to the gospel of PNAC they are doing simply because they can. That's the mentality of the kindergarten bully who runs from sandbox to sandbox to push the other kids out, put his friends in, and destroy whatever they can... just because it's fun and they can.

Malignant egophrenics all.

Sue

[FreedomAngel82]

68. That is why

Bush is so hellbent on destroying SS. It was FDR's plan, a rich democrat, who did this. Now Bush is trying to be seen as an FDR which isn't going to happen. Not long ago Mr. Malloy talked about this on his show. They'll soon start putting in these "faith-based" programs.

[Technowitch]

41. No, I just think they're looking to rape, pillage, and plunder...

...to become as filthy stinking rich as possible.

The ruin of the U.S. economy is just an unfortunate side-effect.

[dhinojosa]

43. My goodness, this is a good post....

Very insightful

[Old and In the Way]

44. Nothing much to add.

You and the rest of the posters have said it all.

They are killing the US of A. It used to be called treason. But I guess if you wear a cowboy hat and boots instead of a business suit, 50% of the population will let you can get away with it.

[FreedomAngel82]

70. Don't forget to add

being a "good Christian man with a loving family who is God-fearing." Even though his policies are destorying our country and will take years to fix.

[NAO]

45. Grover Norquest - shrink govt to size small enough to drown in bathtub

Anti-tax fanatic Grover Norquest made an oft cited quote. He said he wanted to shrink the federal government down to a size small enough to where he could strangle it and drown it in a bathtub.

If there is any way ultra-rich people could make money off of the collapse of the US Economy, then I do not doubt that Bush is working to achieve exactly that result. He shows no regard for the well being of the country.

[BrightKnight]

47. It is difficult to believe that they could be that incompetent.

Jr. started talking the market down before his inauguration.

They have clearly been pushing for a weak dollar.

At every turn, they appear to make the worst possible economic decisions.


Some think-tank must believe that all of this is good for someone. Perhaps this is someone’s idea of a wealth redistribution scheme. I do not think that wealth and economies work like that. Having more wealth relative to other people does not necessarily mean that you are richer. Faster computers and better cars occur when more people buy these things. In many ways a 2005 Honda Accord is better than a 1950s Rolls Royce. Real wealth is largely collective. A healthy tree makes the best fruit.

[RawMaterials]

48. Totally agree they are trying to bankrupt

the government so they can privatize everything. even the armed services, because then you don't have to report the deaths of mercenaries. what better way to take on every other country in the world. Greg plast is a great writer, one other book to read is the best democracy money can buy.

[Vincardog]

51. Quit being so short sighted. They (The GOP) have always hated any Government

t program that went to help the people. They have never believed that the Government had any business working for the Common Good. The fact is that now there is a big enough market in India and China to shift their interests to the East. They just have to bleed us dry and institute some form of puppy dog government that will not challenge their greed and looting. They want to put in place some failed democratic state full of Fascists to help them Rape and pillage the rest of the world.

[mopinko]

52. i think it is just that

they want to steal all the money, and don't see any reason to stop at all the money we have now. they want to steal iou's, too.

[Ilsa]

53. There is no doubt in my mind that this is exactly what they want.

They want to starve the beast. They want to run up the debt so fast and start another war that the budget is all spent on protection.

[FreedomAngel82]

71. Also I think

they'll always be around. Sure, we could have a democratic president and then a real republican but when you least expect it they'll be back (those like BushCo).

[Mr_Spock]

54. Absolutely

They "starve the beast" to use their depraved terminology. It ALWAYS comes back to bite them in the arse though - I don't know why they don't learn. Nevermind that they end up spending more money on less for the people - it's so heartless and ironic...

[Eloriel]

55. Yes, I believe it is. n/t

[NVMojo]

56. yes, it has been the repug plan for decades, that way they dismantle

everything and we go back to corporate monopolies of magnanimous size, bust laws, etc. Ripping down SS is just one step of it. We will all be part of a totalitarian working class unless we are RICH!!!!

[tokenlib]

57. No doubt about it!!

This is Grover Norquist's dream. It is intentional and on purpose. They want to destroy the social safety net and New Deal legacy. It is the ultimate conspiracy theory--and it is true. And I hope they all (the Bush/GOP regime) burn in HELL for it.

But in the meantime, I pray they will be stopped--somehow.

And this is why Democrats in Congress should NOT work with the Republicans on Social Security and other issues. They should just say NO to Frist and DeLay and Bush. And they should have the guts to tell the American people the truth about the class warfare that is upon us.

[Buddhakitty]

58. So we( cattle) are all just really living in the matrix !

[ashmanonar]

90. just watched that last night.

again. and it scared me more this time than the last time i did...it looks seriously like what is happening to us. obviously it's not this machine world that's put in our minds, but the concept is similar; we're being deceived on a grand scale, and there are very few who actually see past the "matrix" to see who is doing this to us, and their aims at destroying the usa.

so where's the One?

[Buddhakitty]

93. It is the 'concept' that I was talking about

Like you said - and it seems we are so tangled up in it that we can't see the forest through the trees (ha ha, that's a seinfeld reference if you didn't get it) but really, it's absorbing us and we are letting it. Scary shit

[ashmanonar]

94. yep.

like i asked: where is the One when we need him?

[Buddhakitty]

96. Good question. "The one" would have to be someone like Howard Dean

Only maybe more credible (I'm not saying Dean isn't credible) but you see how they brought him down so quickly after he yelled a little bit. When we get someone outspoken like him they just chew him up and spit him out. It has to be someone that will call them out AND be liked by the hillbillies in the red states. I'm at a loss ... does 'the one' exist for us?

[ashmanonar]

98. clark?

i'm not a clarkie or a deaniac, i just like both of 'em for what they are. i think clark could be our secret weapon against the repubs. he's the atomic bomb, when all the repubs can field is stones and slings.

otherwise...idk what we've got going for us.

[Buddhakitty]

99. I like Clark too. But look what happened to him in the primaries

If we are looking for 'the one' I picture him stronger. more in your face. I think Clark might be too 'nice' to be 'the one' How sad is that!

[ashmanonar]

101. no, i think he's just not rich and well-known enough to win.

it has nothign to do with character and honesty, since when did being president involve being an actual good person?

on edit: it has to do with knowing where the bodies are buried, i suppose...

[teryang]

59. For every dime of debt, there is a creditor

This bankrupting policy involves the greatest transfer of wealth in history to a criminal ruling clique. They could care less what happens to the country or its people.

[FreedomAngel82]

60. Makes lots of sense

Also don't forget people who can't afford college will probably want to join the armed forces so they can get college money and help their families. Also, don't forget their faith-based programs they want to do.

[killbotfactory]

61. seems that way

rat bastards.

[libodem]

64. Yes

They love money. They supposedly 'hate the government'. They are looting the national treasury as fast as they can, so they can do their bidding in Iraq. They will be so stinkin' rich by the time they get them selves set up. It won't matter if the government crashes, we bankrupt the economy, have a depression. They can move to an off shore bunker and start their own f-ing country. They will leave us in ruins. But, somehow it will be the democrat's fault. They will leave us the mess to clean up. Maybe then, the working class republicans, who will be left behind as well, will realize what the voted for.

[FreedomAngel82]

72. I give it

two to three years before Halliburton and possibly Enron have a permanent place in Iraq. I remember on Malloy's show he was talking about the Iraq constiution and he was saying how the people wouldn't be able to sue corporations.

[Sugarbleus]

69. Yes..............HELL YES!

Kill the country, then rebuild it back up into an openly blatant DICTATORSHIP. It's already a plutocracy cum neo fascist state...

Hell, every liberal TALKSHOW I listen to is talking about this right now! The neocons are trying to devastate America as we've come to know it. They don't like America the way it was before they came into power.

Bankrupt it, kill domestic programs, start expensive, unnecessary wars, take away the level playing field for the average american, take away decent jobs....do away with constitutional rights and the supreme court's power to "judge"....etc, etc..

[EFerrari]

73. Yes, they are.

And the rationale is very simple. They are not us, US. "They" are international corporations enabled by American powerbrokers.

It makes me feel nuts too, to take in what they are doing.

[Liberty Belle]

74. Yes. They are looting the treasury.

[Califooyah Operative]

76. It has always been an underground right wing strategy to bankrupt the syst

em so that defense will be the only expense, and social programs will no longer be an option/affordable; we're on are way in that direction, if you don't belive it ask why we're giving away tax cuts for the rich when we're running record defecits and at war. If the response is about helping the economy, then why make them permanent when we have no clue how the economy is going to be permanently.

[Piperay]

77. Yes

they are doing what they call 'starving the beast' which means they don't want there to be any money for any of what they consider liberal social programs...cause they want to undo EVERYTHING that FDR installed.

[mrgorth]

78. Yes.

[John_H]

79. Only MOST of america. They want

10% of america to live in McMansions and the rest of us to work at high end retail stores, cook and serve their food, maintain their property, provide phone based customer service, and shop at Wal Mart.

[marcologico]

80. MIHOP or LIHOP, same difference.

We're just as broke either way.

:shrug:

[deutsey]

81. The return of David Stockman's "Trojan Horse"

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20010402&s=greider

According to Reagan, Bush, and their ilk, "government is the problem."

Well, yes, it's a problem for them and the corporate interests that support them because since the New Deal coaltion of the '30s, government has been very regulatory. Government has tried, with varying degrees of success and failure, to redistribute wealth in this country in order to build up money for a wide range of public needs and services.

Government is also a problem for other GOP groups, like the old segregationists, who hate government for desegregation, fundamentalists who hate it for aiding and protecting the rights of women, gays, non-Christians, and other groups traditionally shut out of white male Christian power structures. And so on.

[Cats Against Frist]

82. I have to take issue with your point no. 2

It's exactly the reason that I am a libertarian, or a minarchist. The psychological connection of some liberals to the idea of this nonhuman entity called "the government," is every bit as bad as the control that corporations already have over the middle class.

What do you mean there would be no government services? Who do you think makes up "the government?" If the "government" were to go bankrupt -- are our hands so tied that, on a local level, that progressive-minded people might actually have to take action and donate money, and form cooperatives, or community organizations themselves, instead of sit in THEIR own little consumer bubble and wring hands about "the government?"

People make up the government. And PEOPLE would still be there.

That said, I agree with your other points, but I believe that the goal is NOT to cut all taxes and reduce the size or power of the federal government. On the contrary -- basically, especially with the GOP in charge (but not limited to them -- Dems are at fault, too) CORPORATIONS ARE ALREADY THE GOVERNMENT. And if they were to bankrupt the government -- how do you think that they're going to pay for the 600 billion of military spending that goes into the federal budget?

You've got your heart in the right place, but your eye on the wrong ball. When you say they want to bankrupt "America," I do believe that, right now, both American and multinational corporations are "mining" the American consumer for capital -- mining our labor, our creativity, our tax dollars, our livelihoods because they're getting ready to "colonize" the next great frontier, which is the Chinese and Indian consumer -- 2 BILLION PEOPLE.

These corporations don't have any loyalty to America, or patriotism -- ergo, our own government doesn't have any loyalty to America or patriotism. Our wars of agression are to protect resources, and "mine" taxpayer dollars to cronies -- and little more.

In my humble opinion, the BEST thing that could happen right now is if MORE power WERE stripped from this GOP/Corporate-controlled federal government. Don't be so attached to the idea of "government" that you hope to retain the framework for some later, magical time when the Dems are in control again. It was this framework that the corporations and the GOP usurped, in the first place -- and it's WHY they've become so powerful.

Think about this -- if Bush is raiding SS to pay for war, if Bush is allotting more tax dollars to war than services -- what do you think happens if YOUR tax dollars never make it to Bush's warchest? If they could be kept on a local level.

And I must say that NONE of this is strictly the fault of the "evil rich" or the "republican elite." All destructors have enablers -- and I point the finger just as squarely to the middle class, including the upper and lower, who have the numbers to do something about this situation, and DON'T. And if that means everyone -- there are a WHOLE lot of democrats to blame, as well. No one drags a person to the store to pump more money into corporations. The single best thing you can do is MINIMIZE the amount of YOUR money that goes to both corporations and the federal government, right now.

And I am including myself in the guilty. Though I am very thrifty, eat organic food and try to purchase most goods from either independent, local or progressive companies -- I still smoke and take Wellbutrin and have an Internet subscription with Mediacom. No one can be perfect, but we all need a wake-up call.

People seem to think that both "the government" and "the corporation" is some kind of non-human entity, and therein lies the problem. Both these concepts are made up of people. People need to take the initiative.

[paula777]

85. What I meant by no government services is just that

If they make sure that all the money is gone from the US treasury and make sure the deficits are so overwhelming that foreign governments and investors refuse to loan us any more money, then they will be forced to eliminate social spending – or at least cut is way back. Yes, the people would still be here, and there would still be state services, but there wouldn’t be any federal money to fund Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. Then they would do a ‘re-organization’ so they could continue paying the military and the office of Homeland security and giving fat federal contracts to their wealthy friends and whatever else their priorities are, but with that re-organization would go all the social programs that they hate so much.

[oecher3]

83. it does sound odd

and then again many things started sounding odd. I just hope you are wrong on it. Now that the Euro is there, all the rich have to do is shift the money into the better currency and watch the ship sink from a save haven.

[gulfcoastliberal]

84. Emigrate now.

It'll be much harder when there are tens of millions of other American refugees.

[GOPBasher]

86. You hit the nail right on the head.

Yes, Bush and the PNACers in the administration want to do exactly what you said.

[bbgrunt]

87. Consider how this fits into the armageddon scenario

Not only do they want to bankrupt the U.S., they want to depopulate the world. The carrying capacity of the earth is clearly at its limits. It seems to me that they wish to accelerate the total collapse of not only the U.S. but populations around the world. They think they can steal everything and find some shelter or safe haven from the hellfire to come.

[bush_is_wacko]

88. Yes, but they don't care about this country. They want the WORLD at their

beck and call. As others I am sure have mentioned PNAC sort of sums it up. World domination! All goods and services controlled by a conglomerate of wealthy patrons and everyone else at the mercy of them!

[primavera]

89. No sweat, on the off chance we aren't all "raptured"...

... negating the need to repay the deficit, the shrub and his cronies will have bilked enough billions out of the country at everyone else's expense that they'll be able to live high on the hog for the rest of their lives, so what's the worry? Oh, you mean what happens to the 99% of us left holding the bag? Who gives a shit about them? Certainly not this administration.

[spikesmom]

92. Fascist George and Sun Myung Moon

The Bushes and Sun Myung Moon,head of the Unification Church(cult)and owner of the ultra - conservative Washington Times, have an extremely disturbing alliance. Moon paid George Sr. and Barbara $10 million for speeches and donated very, very generously to Dubya's campaign, as well. There are several websites with info on this but I can't put in any links on Dem. Underground (or maybe the Moonies will come and get me -lol)butyou can enter in your browser "Sun Myung Moon and George Bush " and watch the magic happen!!!!You will be shocked!!!! This even leads me to woder about the nuclear weapons of Korea since Moon is a Korean national. Does Bush have the wrong friends in high places????

Bonnie T

[johnaries]

95. Yes, they are.

The most long lasting result of Reagan's insane deficits was that it resulted in cutting budgets.

Never mind that it took Clinton to balance the budget and actually put it in the black.

They want to do away with all "entitlement" (aka, socially responsible) programs.

Despite the fact that Clinton proved they work, this WH is trying to prove they don't.

The only way they can do that is to bankrupt our country, and try to blame it on Clinton.

[WeHoldTheseTruths]

97. "I think they might be doing this on purpose." ( I love it.)

Way past bedtime here. Puter crashed just as I was going to post this and it was all lost. Here's the new short version.

http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/writings_files/2005/050216_priv_soc_sec.htm
about 5 or 6 pages, by Jeffrey Steinberg, Richard Freeman, and Harley Schlanger

Had the feeling when reading Paula777's post at top that this article would be appreciated as informative by Paula. Hope so.