If you needed any more reason to be pissed at the Democrats..

[kamqute]

This article (http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/latin-cn.htm)
is called "Brazil's IMF-sponsored economic disaster" by Michael Chossudovsky. Finance Minister Pedro Malan was the guy who was saddled, this time, with meeting his Washington masters. And you may be interested in one of the names.

After his busy weekend schedule in Washington, Finance Minister Malan hurried to New York for an early morning encounter (Wednesday, 20 January) at the Federal Reserve Bank; on 'the breakfast list': Quantum Hedge Fund guru George Soros, Citigroup Vice-President William Rhodes, ***!!!JON CORZINE!!!*** from Goldman Sachs and David Komansky of Merrill Lynch.

[imenja]

1. Why site a five year old article?

and how are IMF stabilization programs the fault of Democrats in particular? The IMF has been imposing such measures since it was first organized. It is technically a multilateral lending agency, but dominated by the US. Interestingly, it has recently warned the US government of it's own financial instability.
All of this took place five years ago, three years before Lula was elected. Brazil's economy is relatively strong now. I don't see your point here.

[coffeenap]

18. Sometimes old news is new news--see "GannonGate" nt

[imenja]

30. usually there is some sort of relevance

I would like to know the point here. I posted two inquiries last night and have not had a reply from the original poster. If you know what he/she is getting at, please explain it to me. I always welcome discussion on Brazil.

[kamqute]

99. What in my post implies that they are?

I know you posted this a while ago when you were pissed, so maybe this doesn't apply anymore, but I would be interested to know. And Brazil's economic strength is certainly not thanks to the IMF. It's due to a variety of factors, not least the subsiding of the IMF (as well, to be fair, as the contractionary monetary policy which is now getting out of control and which wouldn't have had to exist had there not been one a long time ago in conjunction with other IMF demands), as well as an alliance with Oil Tycoon Hugo Chavez.

[imenja]

103. I'm not sure what you're asking

I didn't say Brazil's economic recovery was a result of the IMF. I was confused as to the meaning of your post since you had linked to an old article and mentioned it as though it had just happened. I found it odd.

[Adelante]

2. Corzine was elected to the Senate 2000

I'm not quite sure what point you think you're making here.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. The point is...

That Corzine is running for Governor of NJ.

I smell ringer.

[imenja]

4. What is his crime?

Having worked for Goldman Sachs several years ago? I don't get the complaint here. Is it neo-liberalism? Suddenly you worry now, 12 years after the implementation of neo-liberal policies in Brazil?
This article is five to six years old. It predicts an economic collapse that did not materialize. IMF and international aid happened to help in this particular case, unlike in Argentina. Brazil is the 7th largest economy in the world. To allow a crisis there would have sent shock waves through the international economy.

[moobu2]

5. Bingo! the Republipukes have targeted Corzine for that and

Corzine recently gave $5 million to various New Jersey democrates.

[Adelante]

6. We should be pissed at Democrats?

Because Corzine is running for Governor of New Jersey?

A ringer for what? For whom?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

7. I'd like to know too.

[Adelante]

10. Well, maybe the OP will come back

And tell us all about it.

[blm]

9. Why are there so many posts targetting Democrats lately?

They all purport to be from the left, but, then, so did David Horowitz before he came out as a GOP operative.

[JI7]

13. i'm glad i wasn't the only one who thought this

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Norquist Nemesis]

8. So??

If you're intimating that Corzine is some sort of ringer, what about Soros? He was there as well. :eyes:

I'd look at Corzine's record first.

[cleangreencar]

12. But,

Soros' record went to double platinum BEFORE Corzine came to the meeting. Definatly you have to hear Soros' record first. It really does put it all in perspective. If Corzine won't play ball, we'll have no NHL season. Nothing more to be said, really.

[kamqute]

91. Because Soros is everywhere in those kinds of allegations

YES--ALLEGATIONS NOT FACTS

[JI7]

11. i'm not pissed at Democrats and still not

i am a democrat myself.

[tx_dem41]

14. Nice try, Kamqute!

Not gonna work though.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[imenja]

16. it's a pathetic try

it doesn't even make any sense. And a five year old article? The guy isn't all there.

[tx_dem41]

17. "Pathetic try" just doesn't sound snarky enough, Imenja...

just go with me here. ;)

[coffeenap]

20. Knowing the OP personally, I find your attacks repulsive.

[tx_dem41]

29. We at least share emotions, then.

I find the attempt to divide Democrats by using 5 yr old articles to at the very least border on repulsive.

[coffeenap]

36. Can you see it as incomplete knowledge

with the intention of exposing something the poster thought was important? There sure are lots of other topics and postings that fit that description on DU.

[tx_dem41]

47. I can see that possibility.

Although it might now sound this way, I am keeping my mind slightly open. Let the OPer come back and respond.

[Adelante]

55. Is this one of those

"Gray Man" theories?

We might as well play a guessing game while we wait for the OP. :shrug:

[imenja]

22. true,but I didn't want to get banned

and it pisses me off, because we hardly ever have discussions about Brazil. We get one and it's a fake, by someone who has no idea what he has even posted.

[coffeenap]

23. Maybe you can find fault with it but it isn't fake

[imenja]

26. well please explain the point

because I don't see it, and the OP hasn't come back to explain him/herself

[kamqute]

100. I am not THAT uninformed

As I think I have demonstrated, I know enough to defend my positions and I am learning more all the time..and I appreciate your help in facilitating that as well. I am also informed enough to know that there was indeed a massive crash in close proximity to the event in question, and I am informed enough to take intelligent action on things like this that I read. I am also informed enough to be more informed on issues of the IMF than the average person on DU and informed enough to know I need to learn more, and how to do so. Please do not try to tell me that I don't know what my post means when all I said was that I am not an expert. I am not an expert on international arms control, yet I can read a piece about arms inspection and understand it. I am not a meteorologist, but I can understand climate change. I am not a mathematician, but I can assimilate mathematical concepts fairly quickly because I am motivated and I have a brain. I certainly welcome your expertise/experience, but I am slightly put off by your aspersions.

[imenja]

102. that comment was written before our discussion

When everyone was wondering what was going on with this post. I nor anyone else understood the point you were making with the article, and you had not come back to explain it. Now you have done that. It is clear that you are informed and well-intentioned. I didn't know that before I read your posts though.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coffeenap]

21. Your point is? Would you like references?

[mzmolly]

25. Crystal clear ...

:hi:

[coffeenap]

28. This person is earnest--what is up with all of you?

[Blue_Roses]

38. not only is the subject title inflammatory

the article is 5 years old and you wonder what's up with us? :wtf:

[coffeenap]

43. Point taken, but I promise you, (of course, I guess I am not to be

believed either probably) that this is matter of judgment not intent.

[blm]

35. A better explanation why we should create backlash against Corzine

would be preferable.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coffeenap]

27. Has anyone here ever thought that this person could use a

discussion instead of a group attack?? Man, I thought we were the good guys. Disappointing. When a person has fewer than 1000 posts, are we automatically not trusted?

[tx_dem41]

31. No, it takes at least 2000 posts before one truly gets to the level...

of not being trusted. :)

Possibly, I overreacted. And, I will apologize to the OPer if warranted. I just get gun-shy when 5 yr old articles are posted without any reference to it being an old article.

[coffeenap]

37. Thank you. I will pass on the warning of trust-- but I can tell you

this person has references you would recognize and approve. Honestly--the poster is away right now--I will pass all this on.

[tx_dem41]

42. That's cool.

This forum can be tough at times, and we always have the radar operating on each other.

[coffeenap]

52. Yes, I have now learned how tough. This is a young person and

I am sure s/he was not ready for such vitriol. I have learned too. The people who invited me to DU, to which I have donated, did not warn me how cruel it could be. I know now--I will be careful where I post too-even though this is the last bastion of people I can identify with.
Shit.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

64. Tough does not always equal cruel.

You just have to be intellectually honest and be prepared to defend your viewpoints. (And, I'm not saying she/he is being dishonest...but by her silence, its tough for some to judge).

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coffeenap]

48. Are you referring to the OP as "these people"?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coffeenap]

58. Man, what can be done to convince you? This is not a game.

Would you like to pm about this? Of course, I don't know you either so I don't know if you are safe to talk to, do i?

[mzmolly]

59. I'm not in the least bit interested in PM-ing anyone.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

78. Piff.

:eyes:

[imenja]

32. okay, where's the discussion?

He/she needs to come back to explain what in the world the point is.
I don't believe in censorship of any kind. If it were up to me, we wouldn't ban Republicans from the site. But whoever posts needs to be able to explain what they are getting at.

[tx_dem41]

45. Great point, imenja.

I wish there were some rule that if you post, you have to hang around for 30 minutes minimum.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[coffeenap]

46. This poster is to the LEFT of democrats

[mzmolly]

53. Uh-huh.

:eyes:

That's generally the so called "case."

[blm]

57. Then try anarchistundergroundwheredemocratsaretheenemytoo.com

Or expect to be called out for that antiDemocrat bullshit here.

Reasonable criticisms are expected. When you reach to dump on even progressive Democrats, it's usually disruption.

[mzmolly]

63. HA!

:hi:

[JI7]

44. so why hasn't he responded to any of the replies

[coffeenap]

49. not at a computer right now

[imenja]

54. do you know him?

if you know the post to be real, please explain the point. Would love to discussion Brazil's economy.

[coffeenap]

60. YES!! As I have said. I will pass everything to him and let him defend

himself if the other posters will allow it. jeesh.

[knight_of_the_star]

77. We're waiting

And the OP has yet to actually defend themselves.

[coffeenap]

83. scroll down please

[kamqute]

92. Hi--please search 'kamqute'

[MsMagnificent]

81. *Looking at opening subject line*

You want me to group hug him for his telling me why I need any more reasons to be pissed at myself?

*head spinning*
See where that logic goes?
Cause I don't.

Don't be touchy about the numbers hon... that was meant for him and him alone. Hell, I'm new, we're all new at one time or another. There have been trolls here who have surpassed the 1K mark... it's been amazing how long some of them can keep their stories straight!

[coffeenap]

84. nope- no group hug. wouldn't ask that. thanks for the insight.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v3.0
==================



This week is our first quarter 2005 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
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your support.

[kamqute]

95. I love you Grovelbot!!

You were the first one to be nice to me :)

Thanks a lot too to everyone who has warmed up to me, especially tx_dem41

[DaveinMD]

34. Corzine is a great progressive Democrat

He'll be a great Governor.

[Blue_Roses]

40. no I'm not pissed at the Democrats

and one Democrat does not make up the entire party. This article makes no sense:shrug:

[Vinnie From Indy]

56. Where is the ORIGINAL Poster? Why has he NOT responded?

I think you can figure it out! His posting is simply designed to distract.

[coffeenap]

61. The poster is not at a computer now--for the third time.

edited for spellling

[Vinnie From Indy]

65. What is he an Astronaut? Deap Sea Diving? Expedition to the South Pole?

Where is he? How do you know he isn't at a computer? Is he getting a lap dance and can't be disturbed? His post is BS up one side and down the other, but I will wait for him to return and we can engage in debate.

[coffeenap]

67. Um, working or at school, or something perhaps? This was posted

last night.

[tx_dem41]

68. So it was...

Are they in for a surprise when they log in next! :)

[Blue_Roses]

74. no doubt--

we've had a 68--now 69 post discussion without them and I still don't know what the hell the subject is:shrug:

[obreaslan]

71. Perhaps this poster has responded....

And is sitting at a computer right now.

coffeenap, I'm looking in your direction, hmmmm....

[coffeenap]

75. Nope--just connected to him

[tx_dem41]

76. Obreasian, FWIW...

I think the OPer might be sincere, and we should give him a chance to respond. I'm willing to.

[imenja]

69. Let's stop the flaming and wait to see if the guy comes back

check in tonight or tomorrow and we'll see how or if he has responded. How's that?

[tx_dem41]

70. I agree with you, imenja.

We should give the OPer a chance. We would I like that I think.

Consider the possibility that the OPer really is sincere, and just a newbie as we all were once.

[coffeenap]

72. Thank you--he is on his way

[kamqute]

73. Wow. My posts have never been so..erm..popular

I am not some kind of plant. If I can get Andy Stephenson onto this thread, I am sure he will vouch for me. I have not been responding to these posts because I have not been on DU. I posted this quite recently and I don't think you should expect me to be haunting my own threads constantly. As for why I posted this now, the answer is this article (http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO303C.html), which came out several days ago. I wanted to pursue the topic more because I am only just learning about this kind of thing (although I already know enough to know that there was indeed a Brazilian crisis) and I found another article. So I read that one. I noticed the name of Jon Corzine and it immediately bothered me becaue he had been one of my favorite senators. I think the ridiculous abandon with which my small post has been attacked indicates one of three things--

a. An anger at the fact that this article is grossly inaccurate in some respect--if so, someone please tell me how

b. Incredible defensiveness with no justification

c. Knowledge of some freeperous plot of which I am unaware

If I err in my facts, I would like to be informed of that, but I am not troll, freep, repuke, or any other slimy denizen of the right. If Corzine were up for reelection to the senate, to the position of governor, or the Democrat running for president, I would vote for him. But that does not mean we can absolve the Democrats of all wrongdoing. It seems to me that only a few days ago DU was filled with healthy skepticism if not downright hatred for the Democratic Party--a hatred which concerned me. But in recent days criticism of just about any Democrat--notably Dean--have been met with suspicions of treachery. If there is some kind of DU infiltration scheme or whatever, I would like to be notified of it--my email is [e-mail], AIM kamqute, Yahoo! kamqute, ICQ 211915915. I will wait patiently for a response, which is more than I can apparently expect from all of you.

[tx_dem41]

79. Chill a wee bit, Kamqute.

There are always "freeperous plots" going on, so allow us some suspicion. My main beef with your post was that it was 6 yr old article with no enlightenment of that fact on your part.

That said, thanx for your contribution. I will let others respond and then jump in later.

Welcome to DU! You've had your trial by fire, congrats. (Oh, actually I have a feeling the trial is ongoing for a bit longer!).

Take care.

[mzmolly]

80. You started your post trashing Democrats at a "Democratic"

website. I am interested in electing and supporting Democrats, I don't care who vouches for you, posts like this will draw fire ... always.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[Vinnie From Indy]

85. Some Thoughts!

FYI this is a debate forum. I am surprised that you are surprised people would want to debate. You say you want "pursue" this topic because you just learned about these things yet your original post doesn't ask for anything. It doesn't ask for opinions or additional info. It was clearly posted as an editorial post as your original title indicates. You present this article as reason for Dem's to be pissed. You also indicate that there are a host of other reasons Dem's should be pissed. Your explanation that you are just attempting to fill out your knowledge on this issue is pretty hollow based on the wording of your original post.

I am not some kind of plant. If I can get Andy Stephenson onto this thread, I am sure he will vouch for me. I have not been responding to these posts because I have not been on DU. I posted this quite recently and I don't think you should expect me to be haunting my own threads constantly. As for why I posted this now, the answer is this article (http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO303C.html ), which came out several days ago. I wanted to pursue the topic more because I am only just learning about this kind of thing (although I already know enough to know that there was indeed a Brazilian crisis) and I found another article. So I read that one. I noticed the name of Jon Corzine and it immediately bothered me because he had been one of my favorite senators.

If you were a plant, what kind of plant would you be? IMJENA is eager to discuss the intricacies of the Brazilian economy. If your purpose is to learn, Imjena might be able to provide a different perspective and additional information.

I think the ridiculous abandon with which my small post has been attacked indicates one of three things--

a. An anger at the fact that this article is grossly inaccurate in some respect--if so, someone please tell me how

b. Incredible defensiveness with no justification

c. Knowledge of some freeperous plot of which I am unaware


You ain't seen "ridiculous abandon" yet. This is mild irritation. There are no small posts just small posters.

If I err in my facts, I would like to be informed of that, but I am not troll, freep, repuke, or any other slimy denizen of the right. If Corzine were up for reelection to the senate, to the position of governor, or the Democrat running for president, I would vote for him. But that does not mean we can absolve the Democrats of all wrongdoing. It seems to me that only a few days ago DU was filled with healthy skepticism if not downright hatred for the Democratic Party--a hatred which concerned me. But in recent days criticism of just about any Democrat--notably Dean--have been met with suspicions of treachery. If there is some kind of DU infiltration scheme or whatever, I would like to be notified of it--my email is [e-mail], AIM kamqute, Yahoo! kamqute, ICQ 211915915. I will wait patiently for a response, which is more than I can apparently expect from all of you.

Wouldn't a "few days ago" and "recent days" be kinda the same thing.

I will wait patiently for a response, which is more than I can apparently expect from all of you.

Since it has already happened, I doubt you should wait and wonder when to "expect it"!

[tx_dem41]

86. Other than a few snarky comments on the part of kamqute...

I'm not sure he deserved the full "Vinnie From Indy" treatment.:)

Kamqute's a newbie and just got his trial by fire. Maybe I'm wrong but he sounds truly involved for a teenager (heck, for most adults), and maybe he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I'm looking forward to Imenja weighing in and some good discussion to ensue.

Take my opinion for what it's worth.

[Vinnie From Indy]

88. OK I am cool with that! n/t Welcome kamqute!

[Adelante]

87. That link is old, too

"25 April 2003 (revised 27 April 2003)"

But that's okay. I am more interested in hearing your own opinion as you draw it from these articles and how they relate to Jon Corzine. You have not critiqued him, yet, but merely thrown out a negative one liner and an inflammatory thread title. We can hear your critique when you have it and have more time to return here and explain it to us. Nobody's being muzzled here. We are just confused.

Sorry we leapt at ya :hi:

[imenja]

90. So explain to me how this demonstrates wrong doing by Corzine?

The article mentions him once, saying he was present at a meeting where an IMF relief package was negotiated. This article is essentially a critique of the IMF and neoliberalism in Brazil, which is fine. But this is the nature of the international financial system. How does Corzine's presence at this meeting while he worked for Morgan Stanley cast dispersions on him? This is the capitalist economy. That's how it works. There is much to criticize in it, but to imagine one person at a meeting bears full responsibility for its inequalities is odd. The IMF has imposed stabilization measures, most far harsher than these, on countries since it's inception. That is no more Corzine's fault than it is yours or mine.

Brazil did indeed have a crisis, which is why this IMF funding was extended. The author of this article predicts full collapse, which did not happen in Brazil. Brazil is one of the rare examples where neoliberalism seems to have helped, but much of that has to do with the nature of the economy prior to the early 1990s.

The point about financial institutions intent on destroying Brazil's industrial base strikes me as quite odd, since they have investments in some of those same industries. Repayment of their money depended on a Brazilian financial recovery, which did indeed transpire. I lived in Brazil in the early 1990s, and at that point inflation was 50% a month. The minimum salary was about $90 a month. That meant that people would go to the store at the beginning of the month and fill completely their carts with rice, beans, and other non-perishables. This is what they ate for the month, because by the 30th, that salary was worth less than $45.00. Financial stabilization has helped the poorest of Brazilians because inflation doesn't eat away at their income like it once did. If you look at key measures of poverty--infant mortality, education, etc.., Brazil actually improved during the 1990s (the decade when neoliberalism was implemented), while the poor in most Latin American countries suffered from neoliberal reforms.

Did you even realize you had found something from 1999? In your original post you mention months without reference to the year. I suggest you look at NACLA for more recent updates. The NACLA editorial board is certainly not supportive of neoliberalism.

On edit: As for Chossudovsky's criticism of Lula's appointment of Henrique de Campos Meirelles as head of the Central Bank, how does he suppose the PT would have gained power without the backing of the financial elite? A longtime socialist, Lula has come to recognize that Brazil is part of the international capitalist economy and cannot live outside it. Without support from the financial elite, Lula cannot survive. Goulart found that out in 1964. It's nice for American intellectuals to sit back and demand socialist rule across the globe, but then they don't have to face the financial crisis and military rule that has typically replaced such governments. Lula is seeking to raise Brazil's profile economically in Latin American and the world. He's working to negotiate trade agreements outside of FTAA so that Brazil is not as dependent on American economic demands. Neoliberalism certainly has lots of flaws, and in most places it's been an unmitigated disaster, but the kind of right-wing statism that characterized Brazil's economy from the 1960s through the early 1990s benefited only a small elite and create widespread misery among the poor. Lula is trying. Let's give him a chance.

[kamqute]

94. Thanks--let's talk!

First of all, I agree with you as to Lula. I think Chossudovsky's demands or whatever, as to fixing the problem, are far too categorical. Also, I am not blaming Corzine for everything, merely suggesting his involvement.

You know more about this than I do, but I have some (pretty unrelated) immediate reactions. First, your reference to financial institutions and their investments. These would be the types of investments removed during capital flight, correct? Second, Corzine's high position with respect to meeting to discuss IMF relief packages suggests deeper involvement. Also, I would argue that the western powers in charge of the IMF made things a whole lot worse before they made things any better.

This is from the global research article (http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO303C.html)
--
The Plan Real

The Plan Real was launched barely a few months before the November 1993 elections while FHC was Finance Minister. The fixed peg of the Real to the US dollar, in many regards, emulated the Argentinean framework, without however instating a currency board arrangement.

Under the Plan Real, price stability was achieved. The stability of the currency was in many regards fictitious. It was sustained by driving up the external debt.

The reforms were conducive to the demise of a large number of domestic banking institutions, which were acquired by a handful of foreign banks under the privatization program launched under the FHC presidency (1994-2002).

A spiraling foreign debt ultimately precipitated a financial crash in January 1999, leading to the collapse of the Real. (for further details see Michel Chossudovsky, The Brazilian Financial Scam, http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/brazil/economy/financialScam.html , October 1998. This article was published three months before the January 1999 financial collapse. See also Michel Chossudovsky, Brazil's IMF Sponsored Economic Disaster, 12.February 1999, http://www.heise.de/tp/english/special/eco/6373/1.html )
--
Also, the IMF was itself involved before that time (again from that article)
--
The issue of Constitutional reform was central to Wall Street's design of economic and financial deregulation.

At the outset of Fernando Collor de Melo's presidency in 1990, the IMF had demanded an amendment to the 1988 Constitution. There was uproar in the National Congress, with the IMF accused of "gross interference in the internal affairs of the state".

Several clauses of the 1988 Constitution stood in the way of achieving the IMF's proposed budget targets, which were under negotiation with the Collor administration. IMF expenditure targets could could not be met without a massive firing of public- sector employees, requiring an amendment to a clause of the 1988 Constitution guaranteeing security of employment to federal civil servants. Also at issue was the financing formula (entrenched in the Constitution) of state and municipal-level programs from federal government sources. This formula limited the ability of the federal government to slash social expenditures and shift revenue towards debt servicing.
--

[imenja]

96. Your critiques of neoliberalism and the IMF are well taken

but the reference to Corzine in that article is fleeting at best. I see evidence of no kind of scandal particular to this case. The problems you and the author discuss are with the entire structure of the international capitalist system. That Corzine was at a meeting indicates nothing nefarious. It was that part of your post that most concerned the other DU members, particularly since the article doesn't support your allegation. Unless you know of much more, to suggest some reason to dislike him or other Democrats because of the 1999 Brazilian financial agreement makes no sense to me.

Obviously the IMF was involved long before 1999. Brazil joined the IMF in 1946. I'm not about to defend the IMF as an institution. I know the economic changes of the 1990s helped many Brazilians, but I doubt the IMF was responsible for that. Remember that the state run economy of the earlier period was controlled by a military dictatorship. It's not like the neoliberal reforms replaced socialist or popular rule. FHC was certainly better than Collor and the generals before him, as is Lula. If you want a serious example of disastrous IMF policies, look to Argentina.

[kamqute]

98. I completely agree with the second paragraph especially

Nonetheless, while I do not see a scandal brewing, I think that Corzine's place in these meetings, through an established institution especially, holds more significance than you seem to think. This guy was one of the big four in a situation that needed to come off quickly..while it was probably planned for, it required immediate action and only people with established capability and position would be involved so conspicuously, at least in most situations. Goldman Sachs is not itself an outpost of evil, so the fact that Corzine was involved in the IMF is not simply by the fact that he is affiliated with GS, although I grant that it is a very well-established name.

About your second paragraph, I have several things to say. First, that regardless of what came before, I think the IMF in virtually all cases either made things worse or slowed recovery following the ouster of the military regime. Second, when I speak of IMF involvement I mean in this particular scheme. Third, in at least apparent disagreement with your categorical statement that recovery took place in spite of the IMF, I think that some of the IMF policies were indeed responsible for the '90s recovery, as you obliquely stated earlier--the reduction of inflation. However, this could not have happened without the actions of the IMF earlier in the decade that precipitated the crisis in the first place.

EDIT:
I don't mean to be backing off of the Corzine issue--his involvement is extremely reprehensible. We see him negotiating directly with a head of state and alongside the likes of George Soros--I don't see how he can be considered insignificant in these proceedings. His association with Soros, in particular, lends further fuel to my suspicions. Nor do I want to be backing off Lula--while I agree with you that we need to be realistic about this, his policies in almost every sphere have been suck-up policies. I don't think he needs the support of financial institutions too terribly much, as he has his people behind him (at least he used to), not to mention Chavez. When I say back off, I don't mean 'back off from you' either, so don't take that turn of phrase as confrontational.

[imenja]

101. what is reprehensible?

Do you really want to exclude all those who worked with financial institutions from political office? In an ideal world, money would not be connected to politics, but this is America. There doesn't seem to be anything illegal about the IMF-Brazil negotiation. And you may be right that Brazil would have been better off with no relationship with the IMF, but that is not the situation. The IMF is part of the international capitalist economy. The US sits at the top of that capitalist network, so obviously we will have politicians with such connections. You are imagining something criminal in what are the ordinary workings of the capitalist system.

Lula does need the support of the financial sector. One, the people will not support Lula if the economy collapses. Secondly, Brazil is a country dominated by the rich. That is certainly a lamentable situation, and Lula seeks to lessen the great disparity between rich and poor. But he cannot rule without consent of the economic elite. In terms of international financial institutions, like the IMF, if a country crosses them, they lose debt worthiness ratings and any ability to renegotiate foreign debt payments. In the global scheme, Brazil is a winner in terms of the international economy, because it's exports have grown greatly in recent years. It has the biggest economy in Latin American, among the largest in the world, and is growing in political influence as a result. To defy international financial institutions would destroy that.

We might all imagine an ideal world where such factors don't control political decisions, but that is not the world we live in. The example of Salvador Allende in Chile demonstrates the consequences of a leader who created his own economic policy separate from the demands of foreign interests and multilateral funding agencies. They stopped the flow of funds into Chile and refused to renegotiate the debt. The result was a downward financial spiral and a US backed military coup. The realities of capitalist domination are not pleasant, but for the time being they are something that any government needs to work with if they are going to maintain any kind of financial stability. It is not ideal, it is not moral, but that is the reality of the world we live in.

[coffeenap]

82. He's baaaaack. Anyone else want to talk? His schedule requires

him to leave again in a few minutes. Don't worry, he will answer what ever you want him to later today.

[MaineDem]

89. Why should I be pissed at Democrats???

This whole thread is a little odd.

[kamqute]

93. VOTE FOR CORZINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my official position. If Corzine is the Dem candidate for Governor, Senator, House, President, Prime Minister, Dog Catcher, Election Supervisor, County Clerk, Chief Justice, or WHATEVER I would vote for him and encourage everyone to do the same. Healthy debate is what I am asking for and I find the recommendations that I get used to inflammatory statements incredibly hypocritical given that you are all criticising my subject line. If I am conflating the opinions of multiple posters to achieve this perspective, I apologize in advance (of course you will all use this excuse now to mask any cracks in your armor of self-righteousness). Anyway, I am not attempting to 'divide Dems' or whatever--I simply want to provide further incentive and information geared towards pushing the Democrats. In all honesty, who is pleased with the current trajectory of the Democratic party? In response to everyone, I would say the following:

I have made no indication I would not like to speak with Imenja or anyone else.

I don't think I have to be a complete and total expert on what I am posting on to speak about it--that is Michael Chossudovsky's job as he wrote this.

I think there are good arguments to be made (which I can't expound in detail because I have them as dumbed-down by experts) that there was indeed an impending crisis in Brazil, and that the IMF was detrimental. Nor is the fact of a crisis materializing necessary to raise questions about Corzine's past.

My level of expertise simply from reading this single article is above the level of some posters whose input is considered totally acceptable, and rightly so.

I know I seem defensive, but I have never been flamed before, and I want to not be destroyed in my initiation rites.

'Recent days' and 'A few days ago' are both inherently ambiguous terms, which can apply to multiple time frames. Thus both can be used to refer to different periods or times, even though their linguistic functions pretty much coincide.

I know about George Soros, but this is not news.

Many on Democratic Underground love Mike Malloy, who is seriously considering forgetting about the Democratic Party. (Really sorry about his sister, btw)

I am sure if you really press me, I could find some posts attacking Dems, and meeting with a widespread agreement.

I am not an anarchist.

So what if I were?

As for charges that I am trying to undermine Corzine..WHO IN THE WORLD THINKS THERE ARE SWING VOTERS ON ******DEMOCRATIC****** UNDERGROUND?!?!?!?!?!?!

[zulchzulu]

97. File under "Old Stale Article to Help Democrats To Eat Their Young" Dept.

IMF...dirty MF...take everything that they can get...

...whatever..

Politics is ALL about money. It's better when you know that the ones with money are ON YOUR SIDE.