Just saw Howard Dean in Portland! Wow!

[DesEtoiles]

Loved it. What an inspiration. Crowd was very Blue and it was great (except for the classless protester - a disruption and very bad form).

A point Dean stated that I wanted to repeat here - excellent framing:

Iraq is now, he fears, a "hotbed of terrorism"

when it was NOT before.

U.S. action, he fears, has done more harm than good ----> resulting in an increased danger to American national security.

__________________________

Another good point regarding all of this "fingers dipped in ink" and the "Iraqi peope are so much better off now":

Stated repeatedly that yes we ALL want Iraq to succeed as a free nation and for the Iraqi people to live better lives.

But Bush - hey - you are the president of the AMERICAN people - not the IRAQI people!!! And the AMERICAN people are not better off now - in fact, they are in more danger than ever.


Disclaimer - I'm generalizing here and DON'T TAKE THESE AS DIRECT QUOTES. As soon as I sat down I wished I had a paper and pen with me to take notes.

But these are the ideas I wanted to remember -

1. HOTBED OF TERRORISM

2. The President's concern should be that the AMERICAN PEOPLE (as opposed to any other people) are better off. And they are not - they are in more danger than before.


Watch it on cspan at cspan.org to see and hear Dean's actual remarks.

OK - Husband making me hand over computer now... I wish I had time to write more.

[RealDems]

1. Is it going to be on C-Span?

Nothing listed about it online.

[kaitykaity]

3. Yeah, it was announced to the audience that it

either was or would be on CSPAN, and a camera
was there.

[wtmusic]

5. Check the schedule

Someone mentioned this Saturday

[FreedomAngel82]

10. Thanks for the time

I'll get to watch it hopefully and record it. Hehe. :bounce:

[RealDems]

16. Thanks for the tip

I'd been checking and hadn't found anything.

[kaitykaity]

2. I was there as well.

Did you catch Perle at the end when he was talking
about dictators?

How they keep the people afraid at home by their
secret police and they need an enemy abroad to keep
their hold on power?

Did I hear that right? I wish I had that direct
quote. It was like oh my gawd, he's talking about
them, the neocons, the PNACs. The Bush plan. That's
what they do.

[grasswire]

7. yes, Kaity

It took my breath away.

[FreedomAngel82]

11. Finally!

Someone is talking about it in public! Yippie! And it's so true. Just watch the documentary "Hijacking Castrophe." They talk about this as well. How BushCo are using Nazish plans.

[Carolab]

14. Yes. This was in "The Power of Nightmares".

It's the same thing they did with the Cold War. Now Al Qaeda is their boogieman.

[DesEtoiles]

24. My exact thought also

[madfloridian]

4. Did you see the guy throw his shoe at Perle?

Discussion going on this in GD. Kaity Kaity saw it.

No One Was Injured And The Shoes Did Not Hit Mr. Perle

A Little Light Reading

This is too odd not to post, even though it's the sort of random thing we don't usually get into. The following is just in from the Portland Police Bureau, from the scene of this evening's debate between Howard Dean and Richard Perle.

At about 8:20 pm, Portland Police were called to the concert hall regarding a disturbance. Officers arrived and took custody of 52-year-old Bruce C. Charles of Portland. Officers contacted witnesses and learned that Charles was in the audience of tonight's debate between Howard Dean and Richard Pearl when he became upset, stood up, and threw his shoes at Mr. Pearl . Charles was apparently detained by either security or other citizens and held for police. No one was injured and the shoes did not hit Mr.Pearl .
So there's your Thursday night report from the "keeping Portland weird" department. We now return control over your evening to you.

[grasswire]

6. I disagree about the protestor

I'm grateful that someone was willing to be arrested to make the statement that Richard Perle is a traitor. It's an old American tradition, to put one's fortune, honor, and very life at risk to speak truth to power. I don't need to enumerate the times in our history when some hollering and disrespect have assisted the cause of equal justice, civil liberty, and freedom.

I was there. The crowd generally appreciated the passion with which the protestor made his statement.

[Why Syzygy]

17. This is all news to me but

There's also that Eastern taboo about showing the sole of your shoe to someone you want to show respect for (and vice versa).

THROWING SHOES?

[ClayZ]

22. I really appreciate the passion with which the protester

made his statement. Had I been there I might have been collecting (reload) shoes for him! I don't want any one hurt (badly...) but, I would like to see Richard Pearl and his cronies digging out of a mountian of shoes.

And bars around that.

Thats just how I feel about it.


:shrug:

[ailsagirl]

44. I agree-- the guy's name is Bruce and he called in to Shultz's

program today and told his story.

I loved it.

I'm glad he did it. Wish I could have been there.

Apparently Perle was shocked!

[madfloridian]

8. Just saw Dean's wonderful retort to Perle at Kos. You go, Howard!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/18/2535/72934

"The highlight of the night came in the phase of the debate when panelists were invited to ask questions. Perle had just spoken for a while, trashing the Dems on national security as usual. The panel then asked Dean an unrelated question. Before responding to that question, the Good Doctor said to Perle something like "Before I respond I want to say that Richard has attempted to do something that I'm not going to let him get away with, and that is frame the debate. As chairman I don't intend to let them continue to frame the debate." Be still my beating heart. You could almost hear Lutz sighing in dismay and Lakoff sighing in relief."

God bless you, Howard. We have been needing that for a long time.

[kaitykaity]

12. I'm glad somebody with a tape recorder got that.

Dr. Dean gets it. He gets it.

:loveya:

[calimary]

40. He SOITENLY does.

Praise the Lord!

He gets it. And hopefully, it's contagious. VERY contagious.

WE out here in the grassroots who demanded he be chosen our leader - we did a good thing. A VERY good thing.

[Why Syzygy]

18. we are back

good kos entry.

[DesEtoiles]

25. YES - he shut Perle down right there

And he said

(duh) NO ONE is saying America doesn't have the right to defend itself. NO ONE is saying that we don't need a strong military. But I want a strong military AND the moral highground.

Like the term "soft power" (i.e. moral high ground) used by one of the panelists.

[Eloriel]

33. WooHooooooo

That's my Howard.

God, I love that man. I'm so glad so many more Dems are learning to love him too. Too bad they didn't get it during the primaries.

[calimary]

41. No kidding. My heart STILL belongs to "Hollerin' Howard."

I'm utterly thrilled that more people are seeing, and savoring, what he brings to the table. Hell, he brings the whole frickin' restaurant to the table!

[FreedomAngel82]

9. Sounds awesome!

I love Mr. Dean and think he's great! :toast: I'll have to watch it on the CSPAN site. Glad to see it there. And I agree with Dean about Bush's priorities. He cares more about the Iraqi people then us (and he doesn't even care that much about them either). All he cares about is their oil. :grr: Here's a big :kick:

[Carolab]

15. Oil and the huge money to be made in "reconstruction." n/t

[Protagoras]

13. Just got back from the event myself

and have to agree with most of what is written above. Dean did a great job, though he meanders a bit. Both of them had the common problem of not answering the question actually being asked.

The shoe thrower jerk needs to spend a few nights cooling his heels followed by a brain transplant. He did more to help Perle get audience sympathy than anything else. 99% of the audience showed a lot of class and when Perle didn't react to the violence and then was able to make a joke about it everyone applauded him. If Skippy the shoe tosser had kept his shoes on I'm sure Perle would have had a lot less audience applause.

Still, it was a very engaging evening and Dean made some great points about this country needing MORE than just military might to be the World Leader...no moral highground = no World leader. Simple and direct and unattainable with Bushco.

We were damn lucky to have this in Oregon.

[grasswire]

19. From where I sat....

...the crowd was heartily energized by the shoe thrower.
There was a LOT of cheering for him, even as we could hear him yelling "Get your &^&$$@@$# hands off me!" as he was taken away.

And the crowd continued to be rowdy, booing and hissing at Perle, and someone in the upper left balcony kept hollering some pointed comments at him. Example: Perle made some snide comments about
Democrats not funding defense and said that Republicans support defense spending. The woman yelled "Oh, you mean like body armor??"

And when Perle mentioned "our" sacrifice so that Iraqis could be free, someone hollered "OUR sacrifice?" Obviously Perle isn't someone who has sacrificed anything.

The moderator of the evening finally had to ask the audience to lay off Perle. And then things were more quiet. But still there was hollering and hissing.

[Why Syzygy]

20. encouraging

this is a black eye (pretzel) to the (ugh) status quo ..

If they can't stop falling on their faces, get out of the way and let someone LEAD!!!

But why is Dean going after Iran too?

Dean also said the Bush administration has ignored the mounting threat in Iran and North Korea. "We picked the low hanging fruit in Iraq and did nothing" about the other, more dangerous regimes, he said.

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/national/index.ssf?/base/national-39/1108716010191000.xml&storylist=national

[Protagoras]

21. Too bad if that's what you saw

At the point that liberals resort to stifling open debate by throwing things and disrupting debates in which we HAVE a representative, we really are getting down the road to becoming that which we hate.

Fortunately for me, from my section everyone was saying "OMG please get that jerk out of here"...wonder what accounts for the difference in the attitudes of the different sections...clearly heard one section that was for Perle too...so I suppose some tickets were sold to his friends? *shrug*

Anyway IMHO the ass who threw the shoes was making the arrogant statement that his inability to control himself was more important than everyone else in the venue...and that he had no faith that Howard Dean could do the job he was there to do. I paid my money to see a substantive debate on the issues and to listen to Dean and Perle, not to listen to some punk try and get his 2 minutes of psuedo fame for being a jackass.

This sort of idiocy sickens me because it debases us all and discredits us if it is associated with us. Perle is scum, but he's scum who showed more class than the guy who assaulted him. Sounded to me that most of the audience agreed.

Lower balcony E if you were curious.

[ClayZ]

23. You are right, now I feel guilty.

I will just keep throwing my slippers at the TV.

Boy am I going to holler at the March 19th protest tho!

[grasswire]

34. well................

I come from a long line of people who worked to bring about liberty, beginning in the 1620s in this land. Democracy is messy business. Solidarity with those who are brave enough to speak above the noise is a virtue, IMO. I'm sure plenty of people think it's more important to be gracious to courtiers and kings than to expose them for what they are. That's how tyranny overtakes a whole land.

I did see a whole posse of about thirty young people who looked like the usual Young Republican rentamob exit -- perhaps that's who you heard.

[Protagoras]

35. Democracy is messy?

Seems like I've heard Rumsfeld use that statement in the not so distant past and we didn't much agree with it then...and I don't agree with it now.

And that idiot wasn't showing bravery, he was showing self-centered arrogance and immaturity. There were a lot more options available than becoming physical in that venue. It's a false dichotomy to think that our interests are only served by violence OR graciousness. There is a huge range in the middle...and this jerk ignored them all so that he could draw attention to himself...and that's all the attention went to...not his message (which I'm sure was as ill thought out as his action).

Perle didn't deserve much, but he got more than he deserved because of the incident. That's the difference between playing, and playing smart.

Note: This isn't a call for MODERATION...it's a call for intelligence. If it had been Dean who had a shoe thrown at HIM we'd be coming unglued right now over the outrageous action. If we want to condemn them, we need to distinguish ourselves from them.

[ClayZ]

42. well, The Portland Shoe Party

Has the same sort of seniments as some other historical landmark changes that have occured in our country.





What would have happened had those folks remained gracious?





:kick:

[SharonAnn]

45. Real democracy is messy and hard and you have to think a lot.

[thebigidea]

37. so how do you know he's a liberal dem?

could've been an anarchist, a socialist, a Larouchie, etc etc.

[Protagoras]

38. It's not him I am speaking of in the context of support.

It's those who cheer him on and provide support who do represent themselves as democrats/liberals/progressives. If we support him then we get tarred with the same brush regardless of what HIS party affiliation is.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. But last night, and even reading all the rundowns today, most of what I've read has characterized things as having 2 camps...Perle's and the Left...if we give the appearance of supporting violent disruption of debates, then even if it's anarchists or Larouchers doing it...we're going to get lumped right in there with them...and we all suffer for that.

[thebigidea]

39. somehow I doubt a dem spokesman will come out and support him

until the party platform involves throwing shoes at neocons, its a bit silly to think this will make us look bad.

its hard to get outraged over a missed shoe, really.

though I guess if you want to worry about that rather than what perle is actually doing, that's your right.

[Protagoras]

43. thats a pretty amazing misrepresentation of my point.

But hey that's your right as well I suppose. To bad it signals the death of actual discussion.

out.

[DesEtoiles]

27. yes - the crowd was rowdy. At one point someone yelled "Clinton" when

Perle referred to a successful policy with China, and Perle then stated something like, yes that was a Clinton policy.

[DesEtoiles]

28. North Korea - Dean and Perle agreed NK can't sell nukes to terrorists!

I had not even thought of this, but they both agreed that North Korea cannot be permitted to have nuclear weapons, in part because it is likely NK would sell the technology to terrorists.

And Perle strongly inferred that if the US can't make China force NK to disarm then basically the US will have to go in.

Chilling.

[DesEtoiles]

29. Liked Dean's jab-support for defense not measured just by $$$ to Pentagon

In response to Perle's accusation that Democrats haven't voted as much as Republicans for defense spending.

Dean said, noting the $600 toilet seats, etc. that a lot of other things feed into a strong defense --- low deficits, good trade policies (helps us spread democracy and capitalism, squelch terror), good environmental policy (less reliance on mideast oil)...

Think in the LONG TERM about how US actions will or will not make us safer, including more than just defense spending, but the entire gamut of what (1) makes America strong and (2) gives America the moral high ground and respect as a world leader.

[DesEtoiles]

26. Exactly. Perle doesen't deserve sympathy but that incident got him some!!

[Roland99]

30. Perle - A Square in Baghdad Named After Bush??? WTF??

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050218/D88AU37G0.html

"I'd be a fool not to recognize that it did not happen on the schedule I had in mind," Perle said, adding that he did not deny that the administration had made mistakes in Iraq.

But, Perle added, "I will be surprised, yet again, if we do not see a square in Baghdad named after this president." He did not specify a time.

Wow! These people are fucking INSANE!!!



And Kudos to the protestor that threw a shoe at Perle!

[madfloridian]

31. CNN has a couple of his quotes..... I like them.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/02/18/dean.perle.ap/

SNIP..."In his new role as chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Dean has stressed that Democrats are stronger than Republicans on defense.

"Defense is a lot broader than swaggering around saying you're going to kick Saddam's butt," Dean said Thursday, drawing cheers from the crowd in this city that overwhelmingly voted Democratic last November." (OK, I admit, I really like this one.)

"Dean also said the Bush administration has ignored the mounting threat in Iran and North Korea. "We picked the low hanging fruit in Iraq and did nothing" about the other, more dangerous regimes, he said."

[DU GrovelBot]

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[madfloridian]

32. Dean said he hoped the other shoe wasn't thrown at him.

I found this in the blog comments.

"He also used humor to break up a scary moment, when the shoe was thrown, saying he hoped the other shoe wasn't about to be thrown at him (not exactly his words... you will hear it for yourselves) It helped everyone to relax... "

[Cha]

36. Thank you! What a place in history

you and the others have.. who got to hear what Dean had to say in Portland!

So True.."Hotbed of Terrorism"..and we know bush didn't go to Iraq to free the Iraqis and I'm betting they know by now, too.

[Dr Fate]

46. I like the idea of Mean Dean challenging debates....

...if they occur- then its a great waty to insert talking points into the media...

If the Repubs refuse to debate, then a great time to ask "What are they hiding? Why are they afraid to discuss issues?"