Howard Zinn is ABB: Says We Have to Be Practical & Get Rid of Bush

[Kathy in Cambridge]

SiobhanClancy, Jonnyblitz and I had the pleasure of seeing Howard Zinn speak tonight in Cambridge MA and sign his new book, "Artists in Times of War". It was a packed house (700 people) and 200 hundred more were turned away in 19-degree weather.

During the question-and-answer period, he said that he voted for Nader because, like many of us, he believed that the same Big Money Machine behind the Dems as the Republicans. But Zinn called Bush "the greatest threat to World Peace in recent history" and said that he was going to appeal to his practical side and vote Dem.

His talk was really inspiring. Jonny and I had our books signed and we were thrilled to meet him. He has such a kind way about him and. at 82, is still sharp as a tack!

[youngred]

1. Zinn is indeed incredible

Chomsky endorses Kucinich, the first time he's ever done anything like that, and Zinn is screaming ABB.

This should be a warning sign to any and all moderates leftists and even center-rightists that we NEED to remove Bush from the WH ASAP

[Kathy in Cambridge]

3. Chomsky is speaking here at MIT on friday

SiobhanClancy and Jonny are going. I've seen Chomsky before and prefer Zinn-definitely a more engaging speaker.

When the Old Left see the clear threat posed by Bush, it's time for the more anti-Dem Greens and lefties to think twice about not voting or voting 3rd party.

[youngred]

17. Johnny told me

you lucky lucky people!

I prefer Zinn as a writer and speaker, but both are Grade A in my book.

and you're absolutely right. If Zinn AND Chomsky are saying ABB, and Chomsky is actually endorsing a candidate you KNOW things are going badly

[Kathy in Cambridge]

18. Yes, living here has its perks. But the weather's not one of them

But it is nice living in such a liberal place.

[youngred]

20. hey, I'm from upstate NY

you got nothing to complain about :P

[nolabels]

42. Endorsing "ABB", what could be more American

Being dragged by a chain 20 miles from the back of your own pick-up truck because someone didn't like your skin tone, such is the lovely state of affairs in the present day state of *'s Texas. I think everybody should get together and send * back there ;-)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

44. You know when the Old Left Historians are endorsing "ABB"

that they're terrified of where the country is going.

[nolabels]

49. It's been that way a long time, it's just the miscreants have .........

widened the scope and are going after the people in the middle now. The offshoots of Nazi's have spent the last 20 or 30 years throwing yokes on things could ruin their endeavors at contempt. They are now in for the stranglehold and trying to obtain the things they have coveted for so long. I am not worried, things always come to a head before they get better.

So many times people on the left believed this fascist click when it said it would reform (it was just giving lip service). Guess people have to get burnt pretty bad or even worse than before it makes any sense to them and occupies a space in their mind.

I try never to be that person, the one Jackson Brown says "left it for someone else, to be the one to care" but alas it happens to us all, eventually, one way or another.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. Chomsky said before he was ABB

He's said on at least one occasion that he would vote for "pretty much anyone" to beat Bush.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

10. Well, Zinn is 82 and Chomsky is in his 70s

I think they see the danger and know that people look up to them.

[nightperson]

94. I really, really, really hope

that fans of Chomsky and Zinn take note. For the umpteenth time, ABB!:bounce: :toast: :bounce: :think: :pals:

[Terwilliger]

24. have you got any backing for that assertion?

I've heard that he would vote for Kucinich if he was nominated, but that's the extent. He said that he doesn't do national elections.

Now you come along and say he's ABB? You'll have to provide a source.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

34. Terwilliger, don't believe me

I read an interview where someone asked him who he'd vote for. He said his usual - doesn't get involved in national elections, more concerned with local, like's Kucinich's platform, Kucinich has no chance. Then he said something along the lines of: "Frankly at this point I'd probably vote for anyone with a credible chance to beat Bush". Two months ago? I believe I posted a thread about it. The latest interview about him endorsing DK if he was nominated was more recent.

If you had asked nicer I would have looked it up.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

36. I'll back you there-I saw that interview

it was on C-Span in September.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. here's the backing for my assertion

Straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=427347

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1645315.php

....FLOWER: Have you picked out anybody you like for president ?

CHOMSKY: Anyone likely to come near a chance.... To tell you the honest truth, I would vote for almost anyone at this point that I could imagine running against Bush.... Of the people who have announced for candidate, the one whose program seems to me the best is Dennis Kucinich. On the other hand, there’s not a possible chance that he could win. An election in the United States, the way things now stand, is something that’s essentially bought. You have to have massive financial support, which means, as the world exists, corporate support. Business support. Or else an enormous popular movement, massive popular movement, which can make up for the lack of business support -- like in Brazil, for example , which is in many respects a much more advanced democracy than ours. Huge and very effective popular movements were able to compensate for their lack of elite business support and actually elect a quite remarkable president. But we’re nowhere near that.

[The Magistrate]

52. Concerning Your No. 1 Above, Mr. Red

Your sensible sentiment is indeed welcome, but it is, on the evidence of this forum, and from other places, not the moderate leftists or even center rightist who need to be rallied to this course, nor will Prof. Zinn have much effect on these in any case. It is the radical leftists and ideological purists among us who need to understand his message in this crisis: it is to be devoutly hoped they will take heed of this admonition from a figure they profess frequently such admiration for.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Darranar]

68. I agree mostly...

but a minor quibble: there are plenty of radical leftists who already do get the message.

[The Magistrate]

70. Well Said, My Friend!

And quite correctly, too. The hold-outs are small in number, but it is important to have every available hand for the great task....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[oasis]

2. ABB. "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem".

[Kathy in Cambridge]

5. Explain-I don't understand

Are you disagreeing with Zinn's position or supporting it?

[oasis]

28. I support Zinn's position. I was using 60's activist language. Passivity

can be harmful. In this case, not voting against Bush, is a vote for Bush.

[corporatewhore]

4. His heart is with kucinich!!!

he endorsed him wouldnt you love to back a cannidatebacked by ziin and chomsky?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

7. My heart is with Dennis too but knowing he hasn't got a chance

that makes me ABB. Kucinich's politics are more in line with my own but he doesn't have the big $$ to compete.

[redqueen]

89. ABB and voting for Kucinich in the primaries are not mutually exclusive

n/t

[The Magistrate]

90. Indeed, Ma'am, They Are Not

It is only after the candidate is selected that ranks must be closed, with all factions taking for their objective the turning from office of the criminals of the '00 Coup.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cleita]

8. How lucky of you. I so admire him.

Yes, ABB is right.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

9. There are few places on this earth where you could see Zinn and Chomsky

in the same week. Cambridge is a special place!

[David Zephyr]

11. That Is Something Indeed.

I am a huge, huge fan of Howard Zinn. Major League.

His willingness to temporarily set aside his disdain for "electoral politics" really says just how dangerous he must see GWB and the whole cabal.

And I am very, very jealous of you seeing Zinn there in Cambridge.

Thanks for sharing this here, RationalRose!

Zinn!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

12. It was great! I am a huge Zinn fan too.

Jonny will log on tomorrow and hopefully correct me, but Zinn called the people surrounding Bush "an insidious cabal set on world domination".

He also was very critical of the media (of course). I can't wait to read his new book...

[David Zephyr]

14. Well, You Can Come Into My Tree House Anytime, RR.

Zinn fans get the secret handshake!

[KoKo]

13. I'm just reading Zinn's book on 20th Century Political History, now. I

realize he's a Socialist...and I'm not..but I also know that his view of history is what I've seen myself. I just pull away, because I try to be a "romantic/innocent" about America. I wanted so much to believe in the best of us..but in my heart always knew we were just another "Empire" in the making.

I'm not a "doctrinaire," so Zinn and Chomsky always were to harsh for me, but these are very harsh times. :-(

Good for you that you got to see them. I'm here in the wilderness of the South and envy you! When I used to live up there in the NE, I would have joined you guys! sigh.....

[David Zephyr]

15. KoKo's Curling Up With Howard Zinn!

And don't you dare overlook his play Emma!

Emma Goldman. Boy, she'd shake up the DU! Ouch!

I like what you said, KoKo: "His view of history is what I've seen myself." Isn't that the truth!

Zinn!

[KoKo]

21. Oh geeze.....I will never be forgiven for that "Gay Bishop" post on DU...

I've been trying to live that one down....LOL's :-)'s. I have a few bones to pick with Zinn....one glaring mistake (can't remember this minute because I read so late...mind is fuzzy) but he's 95 % percent correct.....and he was a joy to find! And....in these times, a relief.

[David Zephyr]

23. Forgiven.

Though your sins be like red like crimson, yet they shall be white as snow. All twelve gay disciples (especially John Mark & Paul) have sent me a direct message that you are forgiven and are to never mention it again.

Jesus also sends his love and wants to let you know that he's very happy you are reading the Gospel According to St. Zinn.

:hi:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

16. I have always been a Social Democrat vs. a Socialist

and having studied History, I always knew there was another perspective missing. I doscovered Zinn in high school and was so jealous when my friends who went to Boston University had him as a professor. Growing up in Cambridge I was exposed to many shades of Center and Left (just like we have on DU). But as I get older, my politics move farther left.

Where did you live in the NE?

[KoKo]

19. NYC, CT, NJ.........and I miss it........I can't tell you how much!

Wilderness, here......:-( But, agree as I get older I move more to the left...although I also realize many problems I had in my life were because I was always much more left in my heart and actions than what people thought! LOL's....... It always made for some crazy friendships!

[Terwilliger]

22. Howard Zinn voted for Nader?

I'm in good company!

[David Zephyr]

25. You're Always In Good Company

Except when you are seen with me.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. I did too-I live in such a Dem state that I vote Green locally

and for Pres. in 2000. But I'm voting ABB in November!

[Kat45]

27. I didn't know about this talk. You guys have to let me know

next time there's a good talk/event around here. (pouting)

[oasis]

29. Kick for practicality.

[Printer70]

30. Zinn compromising his objectivity

Not good for a historian to be indulging in partisan politics- it eviscerates his credibility as a historian and gives fodder to his opponents that suggest he is retelling history, rather than presenting the facts. He's better off working behind the scenes- making objective-like comments that betray no partisanship but put Bush's failures in the context of history.

[youngred]

31. I would disagree

as a historian he has a very unique view of the present as it is an outcome of the past. He has been making comments, and speeches for the past 4 years telling people about the dangers of what Bush is doing, now he's stepping in. Zinn's who life has been one of activism (read You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train) and you'll see that this is not out of line. Just because someone is a student of history doesn't mean they should have no feeling's about the present

[sangh0]

37. Compromised his objectivity?

No one is objective. We are all biased. The worst bias is the assumption that the two parties ideas should be given equal weight and credibility even when one side is obviously lying.

[jonnyblitz]

40. Zinn says there is no such thing as an objective historian

And doesn't apologize for having an opinion or bias. Is there any "objective" history written that you can name?

[bicentennial_baby]

41. Zinn himself says

that there is no such thing as an objective historian.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. For once, Howard & I disagree.

I'll be voting ABB but it might be Green.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

35. Howard Zinn Spoke About Ideals vs. Reality

If you want four more years of Bush so things can get really bad, go ahead and vote Green.

[dreissig]

43. 1968, Anyone?

There's a good reason that the Left is invisible, it wreaks havoc on your career. Young Leftists keep their opinions to themselves. Howard Zinn is an old man can self-identify as a Leftist because he can get away with it. His position is comparable to that of Paul O'Neill - nobody's going to stop him from saying whatever he feels like.

John Kerry in unacceptable to the Left for a variety of reasons beyond his vote for the war. If Democrats foolishly think that the Left is a locked-in constituency, they will be repeating the same mistake the Democrats made in 1968. While there are undeniable differences between now and 36 years ago, there are a lot of similarities. Kerry can't win without the Left, just as Humphrey could not win without the Left.

It doesn't matter that Howard Zinn calls himself ABB. He doesn't speak for the Left, which by definition doesn't follow leaders. Want to avoid a repeat of 1968? Don't nominate Kerry.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

45. What is your beef with Kerry? How about Clark? Do You Think

the "fringe left" will go for him?

I'm ABB-the only Dem I don't really like is Lieberman. Kerry is my Senator and has done fine for the state of Mass (though I voted for his Green opponent last election-there was no Republican running against him).

I'm curious as why you see Kerry as alienating the Left any more than Clark or Lieberman.

[bobbieinok]

92. Oh no - 1968 !! I'm too old to live thru that left destruction again

WHAT happened in 1968????????

The 'left' got all self-righteous and 'purer than thou' and refused to vote for Humphrey because 'he had not publicly spoken against the war'.

AND those 'wonderful', self-righteous, 'purest of the pure' gave us Nixon and his gang.

Many of the 'biggie baddies' in the Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II administrations got their start with Nixon --

....SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR NOTHING 'PUREST OF THE PURE' left

[The Magistrate]

96. Indeed, Sir

It is hard to believe anyone who actually made that mistake back then themselves, and has lived through its consequences since, would seriously urge it on others as sound policy today....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[nightperson]

98. Howard Zinn "doesn't speak for the Left,

which by definition doesn't follow leaders." Ummmmm... where to begin? In exactly which basement or public park can I find the teeming legions that belong to this "Kerry is no better than Bush" Left that ignores Zinn :nopity: :eyes: :boring: :shrug: :tinfoilhat: :shrug: ?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. If you can sell your vote that cheaply, go ahead.

I think the first time I heard that threat was in '68 when we were warned that a vote for anyone for Humphrey would get us Nixon. Still around and still BS.

[The Magistrate]

88. And It Did Get You Nixon, Sit

So your point, if you have one, escapes me entirely....

You accuse others of selling their vote cheaply, Sir. You yourself seem to hold the good of the people of our country, and the future of our country, damned cheap, Sir, by compare to your subjective sensibilities and pretences of moral superiority over your fellows.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[prolesunited]

80. The thought that they can actually get worse

truly frightens me. ABB here and I'll be out there helping to make it happen. I took the week prior to the election off work so I can campaign wherever for whoever.

I still hold my ideals and they are too the left of most on the mainstream candidates, but reality outranks principles this time around.

BTW, I'm not sure if I'm more jealous that you got to hang out with Zinn or jonnyblitz. :-)

[The Magistrate]

100. It Certainly Can, Ma'am

"It can't get worse" are the most dangerous words in the English language.

Nor has things getting worse, to the point of real fascist dictatorship, proved a successful strategy for the left in the past....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[jonnyblitz]

38. He voted Green in 2000 but said this election was too crucial

In his view the dire necessity to get Bush was the priority. He confirmed to me why I will do the same and I am as faaaar left as you can get. I will even vote for General Clark despite his promotion of SOA if he is the candidate chosen.

[dreissig]

46. Too Crucial To Surrender

Looking back at 1968, we could afford to lose the election but we couldn't afford to surrender our values. Nixon won two elections, but he left in disgrace. He was never the Distinguished Elder Statesman he wanted to be, and when he died, Clinton's eulogy for him was full of pity. That was the victory of the Left over Nixon.

Similarly, we can afford to lose the election to Bush. He's been treading water for four years, can he tread water for eight? We cannot afford to lose a sense of ourselves and who we are. How sad for Jean Carnahan, widow of Mel Carnahan. She vote for the war and she lost the election. Losing an election when you also lose your integrity is much worse than losing an election.

Nixon was a scumbag but he would not have wanted anybody to pity him. He won the election but he lost everything else, and deservedly so. He embarrassed a whole generation of Republicans. The people who find it too horrible to believe that George Bush is as big a liar as we know he is, are going to be stuck with him if he wins election legitimately.

Stay in formation. Don't forget who you are and why you're here. Don't want 1968 again? Don't nominate Kerry. He's a sellout and he won't win anyhow.

[The Magistrate]

50. Stay In Formation, Mr. Dreissig?

Such militarist language from an "anti-war" activist! What is the formation you wish to hold your fellow radicals in, Sir? If all are as distressed as you by what complaint you have concerning Sen. Kerry, surely you can rely their endless column to maintain its shape? Except, of course, that it is no massive column, but barely a straggling platoon of refugees out of time....

You seem to consider politics an exercise in self-image, Sir. That is mere self-indulgence, no concern of anyone save a person and his mirror. Let the country go to wrack and ruin, let the people lose their work and their savings: providing one old lefty still feels good about himself, it is all worthwhile!

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. More than a platoon, my condescending friend.

Someone who believes that voting for someone who, by their lack of integrity, enabled the deaths of thousands, is not an act of self-indulgence but an act of conscious. Something Kerry and Edwards were willing to sacrifice for a few votes.

There's more old (and new) lefties out here than you think.

[The Magistrate]

58. There Is Little More Self-Indulgent, Sir

Than an over-great concern with personal conscience, particularly when it is construed narrowly in a quest for a self-image of moral superiority. Of much more value, and worthy of much greater respect, is the person willing to accept necessities, even unpleasant, perhaps repugnant ones, that may result in personal discomfort but will rebound to the benefit of one's fellows in present and future. That is selflessness, the truest touchstone of moral worth, not the selfishness, which is the truest touchstone of moral failure, reflected in the desire above all else to keep one's own conscience pristine, whatever the consequences to others.

As this distinction is a most common lesson of life, the band of those who have not learned it is small, and ever dwindling, however much those how have not learnt it wish to pretend they are outlayers of a mighty host.

It will cost you nothing real to vote to evict the criminals of the '00 Coup from office, whatever your personal scruple: it may well cost others tremendous suffering should you not. All persons have the right, sometimes even the duty, to sacrifice themselves, Sir: no one has the right to sacrifice another.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[The Magistrate]

59. The Machine Hiccoughed

[jonnyblitz]

53. I hear you dreissig

trust me. I have decided the route I want to go for now and in the meantime I will relentlessly agitate from the "fringes". I don't come by these decisions lightly. :hi:

[Darranar]

64. Defeating Bush is crucial...

Defeating him, and removing his administration from office, should be the current main goal of the progressives and leftists in the nation.

We cannot afford another Bush victory. Our nation is being systematically ruined by his administration, and much of the world is going with it. Another Bush victory may mean another war. It will certainly mean that Iraq and Afghanistan will be under the control of greedy and criminal people for another four years, people with no respect for democracy, human rights, or international law. Another Bush victory almost certainly mean more blows to our essential civil liberties, more attacks on the opposition, and more gifts to people who don't need them.

Third parties, and people voting for third parties, distract from the need to remove him and his partners.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

33. Kick

[Kathy in Cambridge]

47. Kick for Professor Zinn

[eissa]

51. Saw him on C-Span

with another heroine of mine, Arunhati Roy (excuse spelling). They were terrific. I especially loved his recollection of being a bomber during WWII; dropping bombs from so far up, you cannot hear the screams, you cannot see the devastation. You go back and high-five your pals for "hitting the target," oblivious to the death and destruction you've just caused. I'm still trying to finish "A People's History of the United States." With two little kids running around, it's hard to find the time! You Cambridge people are indeed lucky.

[jonnyblitz]

56. while he was signing my book I mentioned the Arundhanti Roy

event at the Riverside Church that was televised on C-SPAN and told him how enjoyable it was. He praised Ms Roy for a bit before he was on to the next person in line.

I drove up from CT to Cambridge to attend his talk last night. I will drive up again tomorrow to see Chomsky. Two of my most favorite commentators/writers/historians speak in the span of 3 days. Now all I need is Gore Vidal.

[TexasSissy]

54. I wonder who Howard Zinn is.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

55. "People's History of the United States"

is his most famous book. It is history told from the point of view of the lower classes. Your library probably has it-it is definitely worth reading.

[kodi]

60. so zinn nows admits he was blind to the threat of Bush/GOP in 2000?

the gop and bush did not suddenly morph into their present form, they were right wing and fascist long before nov 2000 and only a moron or gross ideologue could not see it even then. but oddly enough, zinn did not seem to think that bush and the gop was the threat it is now?

50 plus million of us could see it in 2000, that's why we voted for the only guy who could beat bush, but not zinn?

i'm just glad zinn finally admitted how blind he was about his vote in 2000.

[youngred]

61. Always one pisser in every crowd

:eyes: 48 Million of you could see it, 232 million couldn't

[The Magistrate]

62. Unfortunately, Sir, There Generally Is

Prof. Zinn is not one of my own favorite commentators, and he was wrong in the last election. He is right in this one, and that is a good thing. We must all come together in a Popular Front against the worst of the reactionaries, and when these are evicted from office, may then resume our regularly scheduled intramural quarrels....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[youngred]

66. I concur

He has long been one of my favourites, but he is not for everyone. We must indeed all come together, but we need to remember what it is that allowed Bush in in the first place...people underestimating him and concentrating on how much they dislike the democrats over how dangerous bush is.

[kodi]

75. try again, there were over 50 million of us who weren't blind like zinn

and i make no apologies for spitting on the shoes of your idols. in fact, i was aiming more at what Alcibiades did in athens to the statues of the greek gods.

but you bring up an interesting subject, that being the cult of personality of both zinn and chomsky, whose followers will often twist logic like a bush pretzel when either of their heroes are found to have been mistaken.

you idol worshipping folks remind me of the followers of brian in monty pythons "life of brian."...as in "you are the true messiah, i should know i followed a few, and "how shall we fuck off, oh lord?"

if you gain nothing else from sharpening you mind on the works of chomsky and zinn, the least you are supposed to get out of the exercise is that you should learn to think for yourself and not follow others just because they appear as moral authorities.

but, you just did it with zinn, and zinn was wrong, just ask the tens of thousands who died in iraq.

[youngred]

78. BLIND?

Now you're inferring "idol worship" upon me, for writers whom, yes, I respect, but do not treat as infalliable idols. I resent the implication you're making

Because someone saw something different does not make them blind.

[Terwilliger]

63. Zinn was as correct as Nader was...barely any difference

and the wholesale spinelessness of the Democratic party in the last 3 years is indicative of that sameness

[Darranar]

67. However small it may be, there is still a difference...

Something is better than nothing.

[Terwilliger]

69. that's right...either fascists or fascist enablers

well, at least the fascist enablers aren't fascists themselves (we hope)

[The Magistrate]

71. The Only Persons Who Enabled The Fascists, Sir

Are those who put ideological purity over the well-being of the people, and with-held their hand from striking directly against them for that reason. The result of that was to place the fascists in office. It would be wise to take no chance on the same error this time around.

No matter how narrow the difference, Sir, the least reactionary pf the avaiable alternatives with a chance at success is always to be preferred by a serious leftist.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

73. "ideological purity over the well-being of the people"

that's exactly right. Idealism is one thing, practical political reality is another. Those leftists who think that if things get really bad with another Bush term, then Third Parties will have a chance (or, in some cases, revolution will occur), are delusional. Another four years of the Bush junta and we may not have elections at all.

[Terwilliger]

82. Your rationalization undercuts your position

because you don't seem to want to hold Democrats accoutable for not getting the job done properly the first time

[The Magistrate]

87. Hardly, Mr. Terwilliger

Our Ms. Rose understands the criminals of the '00 Coup must be turned out of thr office they usurped, and that before they can do even greater damage to our people and our country. She takes that as the highest priority in political life today. She is correct in that view: nothing, Sir, nothing at all, is of any importance by compare to that imperative.

[bobbieinok]

95. left 1968 (and now?) 'We have to destroy the village to save it'

I remember some woman planning to vote Green in 2000 said 'Well, we lived thru Nixon and Reagan and I'm sure we can live thru W if necessary' and I wanted to SCREAM......

...WHO is this WE?

[kodi]

76. still with the mindless blather that gore was no different than bush

or that the democratic party is barely different than the GOP.

your inability to cope with objective reality when faced with it undermining your rank ideology is well known, as is nadir's.

actually, i feel quite sorry for you having such a closed and ideologically fanatical mind. it must be hell for you living in such a nightmare world where virtually everything you think is true really isn't.

[Terwilliger]

81. I see...so you have nothing but invective

when its painfully obvious that the only differences are that Democrats don't have the balls that Pukes do...they're all spouting the corporate line

[Terwilliger]

84. wait, aren't you a Clark supporter?

I thought you guys didn't like Gore anymore

[Darranar]

65. Good for him.

[snyttri]

72. A Nader ABB endorsement would be good.

[youngred]

74. he's considering running

so don't hold your breath. But the Green party has promised not to run anyone

[The Magistrate]

77. If He Does, Sir

A thorough-going Leninist would have no difficulty describing him as an agent in fascist pay....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[youngred]

79. Or just a vain egotist

who only cares about himself

[Terwilliger]

83. like Dennis?

I mean...what's he in it for? Truth, justice, and the American way? He can't win, has no power, has little to no influence...just a big vanity trip, eh?

[prodigal_green]

85. Protest vote

(see username)

I voted Green in a "safe" state, New York, as a protest against what I saw as the rightward drift of the Democratic party in the late 1990s. Had I been in a state where Bush had even the vaguest hope of winning, I would have voted for Gore. I believe, in the long run, that this has had a positive effect on the current pool of highly qualified candidates currently running for the Democratic nomination. The candidates seem to have rediscovered their core (well, except for Lieberman). I am still undecided about whom I shall vote for on March 2, but I am vehemently ABB.

[no name no slogan]

99. That's why DK's setting the agenda

Remember the $87 billion vote? Kerry and Edwards both changed their votes after DK spoke out against it.

Did you see Dean's banner on Monday night in Iowa? "Give 'em Hope Howard". That's a new one-- it used to be "give 'em HELL Howard", or "Take Back America!". I suppose it's only a coincidence that DK's campaign theme is "Fear Ends, Hope Begins", huh?

What about Diebold's memos? DK posted them on his congressional web site. A few weeks later, Kerry hopped on board and denounced Diebold's tactics. Same with Dean, after DK did the dirty work.

If you ask me, he's got a hell of a lot of power since he's the one who's dictating the terms of the debate.

[PATRICK]

86. And the general now in charge

Shoemaker, has a terribly stupid comment on page three of the paper.
This war 'experience" will make better soldiers out of the survivors. The guy is my generation and probably read the Pentagon Papers as Gospel and ignored completely everything that happened in VietNam.

If he believes what he just said, about "improving" our military in line with Rummies' pronouncements, maybe Zinn was being far too polite.

We have to insane not to get rid of these guys. Our military, except for some of those not in areas where the locals stone and shoot our boys into paranoid wrecks are being ruined, driven out of the military, brutalized doing tasks unsuited for their mission and training. How exactly does that trial by occupation help the army? If we had atr least stopped with victory, gotten out relatively untouched, both internal morale and the consternation of any rivals at our "invincibility" would have been as gloriously intact as any PNAC imperialist could have hoped for. Instead, in pursuit of other, sorrier myths, they have plunged everything into the most extreme peril- including the military.

Whatever they wanted to win in the first place stank to high heaven anyway, but doom has fallen quicker than a solar eclipse. Zinn unfortunately, is relegated to a "Sanity Zone" along with other Bush dissidents.

[DemBones DemBones]

91. Zinn is ABB But ENDORSED Dennis Kucinich

This may be brought out later in the thread, which is too long for me to read right now. ("I'm late, I'm late.")

Michael Parenti also endorsed DK.

My understanding about Noam Chomsky is that he PREFERS DK and will endorse him if he's the nominee, which is an honor for DK since Chomsky doesn't always vote and basically believes our electoral politics is suspect. He might call it fraudulent and ineffectual -- but the words are mine, trying to express my understanding of what he's said about our political system. I could look it up but I've really got to run now, catch you later. :-)

[no name no slogan]

93. I just picked up the book today...

and I'm looking forward to reading it, as a part-time artist myself.

Howard Zinn is a national treasure. I was ecstatic when I heard he endorsed Dennis Kucinich, but I'm even happier to know that he'll urge people to vote for a Democrat/ABB in the GE.

[goodhue]

97. Zinn endorsed Kucinich!

http://www.wewantkucinich.com/endorsements/howard-zinn.htm

"I am happy to endorse Dennis Kucinich because of all the candidates for the Democratic nomination, he is the only one with a bold, clear, principled position against the war in Iraq, against U.S. militarism, in favor of the single payer health system, in favor of using the great wealth of our country to solve the needs of the American people." - Howard Zinn

http://www.kucinich.us/endorsements/endorsements/howard-zinn.php

http://www.kucinich.us/pressreleases/pr_102803a.php

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
October 28, 2003


The Dennis Kucinich for President campaign has just received endorsements from a number of prominent Americans, including actor and activist Danny Glover, author Howard Zinn, Democratic leader and former Wisconsin gubernatorial candidate and former head of the NFL players' union Ed Garvey, Founder of the School of the Americas Watch Father Roy Bourgeois, Co-Founder of Global Exchange Kevin Danaher, the American Vegetarians, and Comedian Professor Irwin Corey.

Danny Glover said: "I have watched Dennis Kucinich not only in the glory of a political campaign, but I have sat and dialogued with him and watched him learn from others, and of all the candidates he stands the closest to my conscience, and I must go with my conscience."

Howard Zinn, author of "A People's History of the United States," said: "I am happy to endorse Dennis Kucinich because of all the candidates for the Democratic nomination, he is the only one with a bold, clear, principled position against the war in Iraq, against U.S. militarism, in favor of the single payer health system, in favor of using the great wealth of our country to solve the needs of the American people."

Ed Garvey published this column today in "Capital Times"
http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/guest/59911.php

Father Roy Bourgeois said he was backing Kucinich because he has spoken up so strongly in support of closing the School of the Americas.

These endorsers join a growing list, available at
http://www.kucinich.us/wesupportdennis.htm