Dean/Perle debate now on C-Span 1. 5:00 PM Sunday

[madfloridian]

Just announced.

[CatWoman]

1. I heard it was pretty good

watching...........

[madfloridian]

2. The first 15 minutes are mostly Perle, and hard to take.

The rest is just tremendous. I was very proud of the new DNC chair.

[CatWoman]

6. 9/11; 9/11; 9/11; 9/11

everything changed on 9/11

what is this guy -- a fucking parrot?

[Make7]

3. Thanks, I was hoping I'd catch this.

Can't wait to see the "shoe thrower" in action.

:) Make7

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. It would be nice if their website reflected what is being played

on the television.... at least a little bit.

[madfloridian]

9. Well, at least we saw it somewhere.

I have seen them do this before. Screw up their schedule.

[XemaSab]

5. How far into this

is the shoe throwing?

[CatWoman]

7. NOT SOON ENOUGH

:D

[madfloridian]

8. Should be just about now or soon. Started at 5.

During Perle's statements.

[CatWoman]

11. haha -- "I know how unpopular the war in Iraq is"

met by wild applause :D

[XemaSab]

10. Can someone

link to a video of the shoe-throwing so I don't have to watch this windbag talk about pre-emptive war? I'm getting angry.... :mad:

[madfloridian]

12. You really should see the rest of the debate after Perle.

It is a great discussion, and Dean effectively handles this guy.

[CatWoman]

13. damn

there was the shoe!!!!!

hahahahahahahahahaha

BTW -- It's posted on www.crooksandliars.com

[Cha]

55. I heard.."Lyin' Bitch!"!!

Thanks! Somebody needed to do that!

[FreedomAngel82]

62. Thanks for the link

That was one angry dude. I know how he feels all too well.

[KittyWampus]

14. Normally, I Wouldn't Support The Shoe Throwing & Heckling... But It's

the Earth in crisis mode.\t

[KoKo]

21. I was screaming at the TV Screen ...terrible profanity. If I'd been

there they would have had to take me out! Perle is such a "bloviating ass" so unconcerned with anything but his "theory" of Decmocracy spread round the world, while he profits from endless WAR. What a fuckin' hypocrit!

And...what's worse is that anyone whose ever known me knows that me yelling profanity or using the *F* word isn't the person I "used to be."

These people call out for people to denounce them...to shout from the ROOFTOOPS! LIARS...MURDERERS! CORPORATE RAPISTS!!!

Dean was absolutely Masterful, btw ...he really showed the PNAC/NEOCON in it's true light.

What a breath of "fresh air" Dean is. I loved the debate after I calmned down....

[XemaSab]

23. Roviating ass?

n/t

[XemaSab]

15. There it was

:-)

Shoe-throwers for truth!!!!!

[Radical Activist]

16. I missed the first half last time

I'm listening to Dean brag about the last four wars he supported. What a beautiful advocate for peace. :eyes:

[ProudToBeLiberal]

44. your premise is wrong. You're assuming that Dean is ALL anti-war

Dean has said repeatedly that we went into Iraq for the wrong reasons. That doesn't mean he's against ALL wars.

[conservdem]

17. I did not know Dean was so supportive of our military intervention in

Afganistan.

[NYCGirl]

22. He always said he did. NT

[Guaranteed]

46. He is, as well as many DUers,

myself included.

[KoKo]

58. We "Anti Iraq Invasion" Protestors were FOR Invading Afghanistan but

NOT Iraq. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. And Dean clearly laid out the thinking of those of us who have protested over and over the Invasion of Iraq and Invasion of any other country.

He said we will not spread Democracy with our MILITARY...but with our IDEALS...and while we need to be STRONG MILITARILY...Bush's policy is F**ked, because he doesn't see the FUTURE...that America is no longer STRONG ECONOMICALLY...the Chinese and Japanese own most of our DEBT..and those who own our DEBT...really, in the long term, OWN US!

Dean sees the FUTURE. Perle and the Neo-Cons LOOK BACK to the COLD WAR!

They never got over it...Dean sees it and those of us who support him SEE IT!

[conservdem]

60. Do you think the majority of the posters here agree with your support

for the invasion of Afganistan??

I thought there were many/most here were agaist it.

[CatWoman]

18. why do I keep thinking about this guy whenever I see Perle?

[janx]

19. Watch some of the overhead shots. Perle's eyes look

like black sockets sometimes.

[XemaSab]

20. I really liked the point

about the fact that we've borrowed money from the Saudis and Chinese to fund this shit.

That and the fact that the best defense is a good renewable energy policy....

[XemaSab]

24. Sigh...

I'm remembering why I love Howard..... *sniff!*

[janx]

25. Don't be disappointed.

He's GOOD at this. :hi:

[shance]

26. What I found a tad bazaar was how Perle came across so soft spoken

and even kind(?). It's very effective to those that haven't read up on his involvements.

Cheney can pull off the kind older fatherlike persona too, when he's not telling Pat Leahy to go fuck himself or shooting 9,000 pheasants from the sky.

[janx]

27. It's a form of condescension. n/t

[janx]

28. Pay close attention to Dean's last question to Perle.

It's supposed to be a "softball" or gentlemanly question. Dean hands it to Perle and watches Perle make a complete fool of himself. I'd never seen Dean in a real debate before. He's a master at it!

[NYCGirl]

32. I hope C-span (or someone else) televises the upcoming debate with

Pat Buchanan.

[janx]

47. So do I.

Do you know if the Dean/Perle debate will repeat once more? I saw it yesterday and want to see it again. I had to miss it today.

[NYCGirl]

51. I just checked their site and it doesn't look like it (according to the

schedule), but they play fast and loose from time to time with programs, so I'm not 100% sure.

[janx]

54. Thanks. I'll check late tonight. I have work to do this evening. n/t

[Radical Activist]

29. I like when Dean calls for an end to the Iraq war and calls Bush a liar

Oh wait, I haven't heard Dean do either of those things. Did I miss something? Maybe I was getting a snack when that happened.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

34. eating unhealthy snacks can be bad for you

it can mess up a persons judgement you know. Like alcohol.

[Radical Activist]

39. Did you hear something I didn't?

Are you proud of Dean's failure to call for a withdrawal or talk about the continuing lies Bush keeps telling us about Iraq? Why don't you start attacking DLC Democrats so you won't have to defend Dean.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

41. I don't want to follow your philosophy of just attacking people

I would rather defend my ideals and my beliefs instead of constantly barraging other people's ideals and their love for this country.

[Radical Activist]

45. Then let's talk about Dean's ideas

instead of talking about snack choices. Are you even old enough to legally drink alcohol?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

50. again your premise is wrong

You're assuming that because you're under the age to drink legally, then you haven't drunk alcohol. I think that's a naive view. Many people who are under 21 drink...And btw if you looked at my profile it says that I'm a first year...I'm 19 yeared old who has ideals just like you. I believe in the Constitution and the goodness of people. I don't think negative attacks enforces a connection of hope between people.

[Rose Siding]

30. Funny when perle agreed that too much had been wasted on star wars

then turned RIGHT around and chided dems for voting against some military funding (like STAR WARS, you twit?)

[conservdem]

35. They both agree on boost-phase missiles.

Did others here know this too?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

36. yah the debate was played on saturday.

nt

[Radical Activist]

40. Yep.

They also agree on keeping the Pentagon budget high.

[Rose Siding]

57. True, but his position is a little more complex than that

From On The Issues, during his campaign...


Redirect military spending rather than reduce defense budget

On military spending, Dean has rightfully aroused anger and skepticism from progressives with his claims that he will not reduce military spending. It appears, however, that these statements are a political dodge of sorts to avoid media characterizations of Dean as the "antiwar candidate" and "weak on national security." Dean has told audiences that he would not reduce military spending but rather "redirect" it toward the development and implementation of renewable energy technology (an issue he ties to defense), homeland security measures to fund local first responders, inspect container ships and protect nuclear sites (a move that Alexander Cockburn himself recently called on Bush to make), and the purchase of old nuclear materials in Russia.
Source: Nico Pitney, CommonDreams.org, "Progressive Case for Dean" Aug 11, 2003
...
Focus Pentagon budget on military personnel's needs
I do not favor decreasing the Pentagon budget, but do support restructuring the way money is spent to ensure the most effective use of taxpayers' dollars possible. I am deeply committed to maintaining a high quality professional force established during the Clinton years. I also believe much more must be done to provide for the well-being of our soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen and their families.
Source: Campaign website, DeanForAmerica.com, "DOD Budget" Jul 2, 2003
...
Switch funding from Star Wars to human intelligence

There are two big problems with the defense budget. One is that there are the contracts that get let out , like the Halliburton contract getting money from Halliburton in deferred compensation. That's a violation of the federal ethics code, even though it may theoretically not be against the law. And the other is that the problem with the defense budget is not entirely its size, it's what it's spent on. We should be go back into the ABM Treaty. We ought to sign the land mines treaty. Instead of building the tactical battlefield nuclear weapons program, which is a weapons program that does nothing to fight against terrorism, we need to invest in special ops and human intelligence. Instead of investing in Star Wars, which has failed the majority of its tests, that we ought to be doing different kinds of things with that money, such as paying soldiers and making sure there are adequate schools on our military bases.
Source: NPR, "Justice Talking" Dean-Nader Debate Jul 9, 2004
...

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Homeland_Security.htm#5

[Radical Activist]

31. "Now that we're there we have to hope the President's policy succeeds"

-Dean on Iraq.

So when the President conducts sham elections for show, makes sure American corporations have a permanent role and control over the future Iraqi economy, and asks for another $80 Billion I guess we just have to hope that works. Oh yeah, thanks for not brining those issues up Howard, you do so much for the peace movement with your strong challenge against the Bush administration. :eyes:

[conservdem]

37. He seems to see the elections over there as being legit.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

38. you have to finish the job you know

it's like house work. One you decide to committ to something like getting your sides down on the house. If you stop in the middle, the whole house will eventually be destroyed. You have finish the job.

[welshTerrier2]

48. exactly who is cleaning up in Iraq ???

if you find out the cleaning solution you've been using is burning holes in the floor, you don't just keep pouring out more of it ...

we're in agreement you shouldn't destroy the whole house but what you're advocating is doing exactly that ...

[ProudToBeLiberal]

53. you missing my basic point

I was trying to point out that sometimes just quitting what you're doing just makes thing worse.

[welshTerrier2]

56. "completion" is not inherently good or bad

well, it's quite possible i missed your point ... if I did, please clarify ...

i thought you were making the point that sometimes when you're doing house work, you can't just stop in the middle because that would make things worse ... did i misunderstand?

the point i was making was that "completion" of a task that's been started has neither inherent positive value nor inherent negative value ... an assessment must be made whether "completion" via the current route is still both desirable AND feasible ...

it is my belief that achieving peace and stability in Iraq might be highly desirable but I believe it is not feasible given the mechanism to achieve it that bush has chosen ... U.S. troops in Iraq are prolonging the "war" and are further destabilizing the entire region ... you and I seem to share a common objective but we do not seem to share the means to achieve it ...

"staying the course" to achieve the desired outcome when the outcome is not achievable makes no sense at all ... bush may very well have "ripped the sides off the house" and may have made things much worse than before he invaded Iraq, but that does NOT mean that continuing on this path will yield improvements ... you have to assess the situation from where you are now, not from where you started ...

[welshTerrier2]

42. i see it a little differently

frankly, i've never considered Dean to be anti-Iraq war ... and in his new role as Chair, it shouldn't ultimately matter that much what his individual views are ...

HOWEVER, if Dean ultimately doesn't REFORM the Party's infrastructure to provide regular forums for ALL Democrats to be heard on this issue, then he will have failed ...

Dean's statements that he wants the war to end are no different than anyone else's statements of those who aren't calling for an immediate end to the "war" ... bush says he wants to end the war ... cheney says it ... rumsfeld says it ... rice says it ... Kerry says it ... the disturbing thing they all have in common is that what they mean by end the "war" is that they think the U.S. should "stay the course" until victory is achieved NO MATTER HOW LONG THAT TAKES AND HOW MUCH IT COSTS !!!! but again, Dean's job is to restructure the Party's internal processes and communication mechanisms so that ALL Democrats can be heard on this issue ... if he succeeds in doing that, he deserves nothing but the highest commendation ...

[Guaranteed]

52. And then he also said that there is very little chance of them succeeding,

although he wants them to.

Most people want to see Iraq stabilize. It's not going to happen, but I want what's best for the Iraqi people- even if Bush doesn't.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[CatWoman]

43. heh -- tried to play the Colin Powell card

and got laughed at.

[KoKo]

59. He laughed at Powell...and told Dean...."We DID have a Democrat....

Colin Powell." (quote from Perle)

So, he thought that very funny....Powell was the "joker Dem." And he said "we listened to him on a few things."

What a POS that Perle is...Bloviating fanatical fool stuck in a damned "time warp."

[conservdem]

49. Good event. Theres should be many more debates like this.

8 mintutes for opening statements should be enough in furturen debates.

[proudbluestater]

61. How many of you DUers were kicking Perle's butt in your own living room?

Man, I was kicking some serious butt debating Perle before Dean got a chance to rebut him.

Howard did a fine job. Being new in his position, I think he held back. I would have gone after that bastard with both barrels blazing, that arrogant son of a bitch.

Perle comes off as an elitist snob, without the education/brains to back it up.

I was laughing my ass off one time when Perle finished a long speech on some topic and they panned over to Dean with this puzzled look on his face like "What the fuck?" I had that same feeling. Whatever it was Perle said, it made no sense.