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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 10:44 PM
Original message
I have a question for hard-core political gurus...
and I know you're here. Is what we are experiencing in this country an anomoly or is it business as usual? Prior to the 2000 election I had never voted or paid much attention to anything not visible from a bar stool. Now, everything I read has origins from WWII, or shortly after. This leads me to believe that my outrage is born of naivete- and not how this country operates. Also, at what point can you both stay informed and stay reasonably optomistic? Lastly, are there really any 'good' guys?
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent Questions.
Straight to the heart of things. I wish I was a political guru and had answers.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've wondered the same thing.
I'm a political newbie and frustrated as hell.

:kick: for an answer! Those who have been around need to help educate us.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Velcome the the Fourth Reich. Have a seat and watch the New Americanazis
Edited on Sun Feb-20-05 10:57 PM by radwriter0555
in action, dessimating the Constitution and destroying the world.

Give it another 10 - 15 years before everyone catches on.

There are some good guys, but before long they'll be jailed, personally destroyed with lies, gossip and rumor, or blacklisted and exiled from the USA.

Until NATO troops raise arms against the US military, nothing will change, and it will only get worse.

It's here. Run for your lives.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. But what about the optomistic part? ......n/t
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm sorry. That IS the optimistic part.
That most of us survive and that the world literally isn't destroyed...
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. Sadly, probably business as usual.
Edited on Sun Feb-20-05 11:02 PM by tasteblind
Anyone who has read and found themselves nodding along with Zinn's People's History will probably agree.

I was watching Slavery: The Making of America, today on PBS, and they were talking about the election of 1860, talking about how Democrats (who then had more in common with the current Republican Party, and vice versa) demonized Lincoln over slavery, and it was just like the kinds of things that Republicans did to John Kerry and Al Gore.

We've had wars for conquest before.

Vietnam wasn't supposed to happen again, but it has.

War on Terror is a substitute for the Cold War...Clinton didn't need an enemy to keep the people in line, but these folks sure do.

So yeah, sadly, this is business as usual. Except worse than usual.

With the way our economic policies are going, expect a Depression in the next ten years or so, tops.

Same shit, New American Century.

Blech.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. to understand the invasion of iraq, i worked backwards
all illusions of america being the good guy disappeared. the longer i have been on du and looked at u.s. history, the stuff we never saw watching the news or talking around the water cooler has led me to believe that we havent ever been the america i thought we were

but events since bush has gotten in to i really believe is such extreme something we havent seen the likes of in the past
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. My 86 year old Nana tells me she's never seen it this bad
She thinks the scales will tip and the democrats will get some power back because are fellow americans will equate the gop with a failed war and bad economic times. In her opinion, many of the gop lawmakers are very "coarse" Dear and people don't care for that.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I've been thinking about ...
... this whole mess and sometimes I wonder.

Maybe Bush** really thinks he is doing the right thing. Maybe he thinks that oil is so important to America, that is justifies any action taken to secure it. Perhaps he thinks that if Americans understood the stakes, they'd agree with him. Perhaps they would.

Maybe this is why he almost melted down in the first Bush-Kerry debate. How can anyone dare question the great hard work I am doing? Are you all ingrates?

I don't know really. The other side of the coin is that every time Bush** gives a speech, that permanent smirk makes me think he knows he's lying his ass off.

I really just don't know sometimes.
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BlueManDude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. The RW media domination is the new element
that leads me to believe this is not bus as usual but the start of our decline into something like Mexico. One party control for many years and a huge gap between rich and poor.

When you see millions of Americans literally kicking their own ass by voting GOP then you know we got a problem.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. I am a simple political spectator just like you but here is my opinion
I have always thought we were a brainwashed nation. This probably stemmed from my picking The Ugly American off a book shelf when I was about 16 and believing what I read.

I think the only difference between these days and those days is that we live in the Information Age. That being said, as a person who has studied politics in the political capital of the world for decades, there is one other variable in the formula we see on display today: Bush* is the worst. He is the most decadent, deceptive, incompetent, corrupt politician I have seen in action, and I was a Watergate junkie.
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earthside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. 36 Years in Politics
36 years ... That's liberal/progressive/Democrat/Green politics. I've worked for congressional campaigns, in presidential campaigns, run for city council and Congress myself.

It is bad.

The American people are just tuned-out. Give them cheap gasoline, cheap food, and cheap clothes ... and they are content to watch football, basketball, and celebrity scandals -- they are satisfied.

Bush is well on his way to being a classic tyrant. And the best the Democrats and liberals can do is dream about the next election and hope that a white knight comes along to save us.

This is not like any other time in American history. Never have we had the magnitude of corporate power with a pro-corporate media with a completely cowed "opposition" party AND the propaganda of fear and war. All the ingrediants for years of growing oppression.

Any hope? I'm afraid things will ony get better after they get much, much worse.

Sorry, that's how I see it.
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-05 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'm no guru, but I can provide a small part of a link.
A link, that is, reaching from this adminstration into about the 1970's. See, when we make these connections, we see that it is all a continuum. Then by reading history we can take a particular thread in the continuum, and follow it from the past into the present.

Unfortunately, I don't have a link to the article; last time I made reference to this article, however, someone here jumped in and provided the link!

There used to be this governmental entity, during Nixon and/or Ford, and it was called "The Committee for the Clear and Present Danger". Supposedly it was there to address the threat of nuclear annihilation, blah blah blah. But it was really there to GIN UP fear (among ordinary Americans)--fear that if we didn't keep a strong defense system, we'd all end up being nuked.

Spreading fear... sound familiar? Two of the guys directly connected with that "Committee" were Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney.

Then the Soviet Union fell, and it really got hard to keep the public sufficiently afraid to make them support big military spending/build-ups. So they needed a new thing to scare people. Enter "osama bin laden".

That's not saying that arab/muslim terrorism has never happened. Of course it has! But much of this whole thing is the constant antagonism btw Israel and their arab neighbors.

Most of us paid little attention. That is, until it was brought HERE! WTC was "the New Pearl Harbor". That's what the neocon WRITTEN AND SIGNED MANIFESTO says we "needed": "America needs a new Pearl Harbor."

Gotta go, but suggest you google "Operation Northwoods".
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
15. read Zinn's "A Peoples History of the US" and decide for yourself
Yes, there really are "good guys."

They wear white hats.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 04:02 AM
Response to Original message
16. uh, that's not easy to answer

The easy answer is that things ratcheted up to the uncivil, bitter, near-warfare between 1987 and 1991- the Bork and the Thomas hearings are sort of the bookends of the ramp-up period. And there are periods between then and now that were unbelievably horrifying- mid 1994 through the end of 1995 (the Gingrich Congress) and January 1998 to early 1999 (the Lewinsky affair) come to mind as particularly bad. November/December 2000 (Florida) was horrid. Most or all of 2003 was very nasty.

Naivite...well, in some sense this country has operated in this way for as long as it can remember. Everything gets said, people assert as belief that which they feel need to believe or trust whatever the particular facts, shouting down others and coercions were normal too. Things get chewed out ad nauseum. But the meanness and retaliation and repressiveness and all that has always been there, too. Writers of the Forties and Fifties loved James Jones's "From Here To Eternity" (1953)- they said it really described the condition of life for average people in the country of that era...which was pseudocolonial, and it was harsh enough that it was- after a lot of adoration and awards- quickly forgotten about. People prefer the myth of Mayberry, the way common people saw their lives change for the better during the late Fifties, to remembering the realities.

After that things get complicated in a hurry. For one thing, the 1-2 generations that grew up politically under FDR and the Depression and Second World War decided it had seen enough of conflict and bad government, and the Cold War added to it. That contingent didn't want seemingly useless and avoidable conflicts in domestic politics- and it spent its best years fighting more or less necessary wars overseas. That made for a lot of repression of domestic resentments built up and for a politics that was always quite polite and had as first priority hanging in on the Cold War, but very nasty below the surface because so much was changing and beginning to change. Civil Rights, feminism, the decline of Christianity.

Right wing government is rule by old men, and they understand the present as a simplistic extension of the part of the past they do understand. They have a way of repeating and rearguing issues current in their youth, so right wing and right wing-influenced governments start off with an idea that things 40-50 years in the past have to be revised, reargued, rehashed. Kennedy, LBJ, and Nixon spent a lot of their time dealing with and redealing policies first dealt with under William Jennings Bryant/Woodrow Wilson and Calvin Coolidge. Carter and Reagan rehashed issues of FDR's Presidency, Bush Sr. did a lot of Truman and Korea over again. But the end of the Cold War came along, too, and that meant a lot of restrained domestic discord broke out. (Actually, restrained wartime discontents also bubbled over during Truman's terms). Additionally, the people who lived through the harshnesses of the FDR era and insisted on civility in American public life began go into die out. At this point there are very few left, and they are too frail and old to set the tone in things anymore.

Under Clinton the country reargued the Eisenhower Fifties- McCarthyism (Gingrichism), Friedan-era feminism (Lewinsky), Hungary (Bosnia/Montenegro), and early Civil Rights (the Bush side racist appeals of the 2000 campaign, then Florida). Under Bush Jr. we start off with replaying the Gary Powers affair of 1960 (via the E-3 emergency landing on Hainan), the anti-Mafia effort of JFK/RFK (Enron etc), the Castro/Cuban missile crisis paranoia and Bay of Pigs (bin Laden/'9/11' and Afghanistan), the Gulf of Tonkin resolution (Iraq War Resolution), and war in South Vietnam (aka Iraq). The details continue to fit pretty well- Dean and McGovern, Kerry and Muskie more or less, the budget deficits and crappy economy...and at present we're up to roughly 1973, with the negotiations with the various Iraqi factions a good fit to the rigid Paris negotiations that filled the late years of the Vietnam fighting. We are revisiting the early Seventies at present, at a clip of 4 years then to 1 year now. And to listen to the Bush people, they are now getting to the Right's problem with Iran's mullahs, generated by Khomeni in 1978-80, and planning fight Castro's friends in Latin America a la Nicaragua/El Salvador again (read: Chavez in Venezuela, and CIA/mercenary forces) in a reprise of the early/mid Eighties before the end of 2008. (That is the significance of the John Negroponte appointment, btw.)

The present argument begins at WW2. A lot of people saw the cooperative endeavor and the civilized ways people treated each other during it as a relief from peacetime brutishness and wondered why this sense couldn't be sustained. It did, to some fairly large degree, throughout the Cold War. A lot of them and their children decided that this was sustainable, that civilized and collective endeavor and humble-within-bounds behavior and benevolent government and gradual correction of social and economic injustices was the proper form of The American Dream.

We now have a running collision, since the end of the Cold War, with people who see the country in a more barbaric fashion about the assumption of this Mayberry/Brady Bunch life being normal social life. The standard operative before WW2 is the one in "From Here to Eternity", that of (British) colonialism, with all its chauvinisms and racisms and bigotries, its castes, and its running destruction of human dignity and degradation. This standard won out against a hard challenge in 1968 and had its triumphal moment in Reagan's victory in 1980/81. The short answer is: the Brady Bunch lifeway with its optimistic quasi-progressive centrism- it was a Sixties ideal show, after all- has been destroyed in recent years; it was transitory in the first place. The pre-WW2 standard is impossible, but making its last stand. We don't mean to but have to flee forward to some degree, recompose social life in a humbler but more inherently dignified form. We have to end the colonial era in our social forms and sometime thereafter the economic forms will follow.

***

Okay, that's the long answer I give myself to explain the present. There's real political hope in its logic, though, despite the present being a reprise. For one thing, as actually seen during 2003/2004, the nostalgia and backlashes generated by rehashing the late Sixties and Seventies are both reactionary and liberal/progressive. A lot of Dixiecrats went over to Nixon at the time, but a sizeable number of Rockefeller Republicans also switched sides out of moral outrage during that period. In fact, once the politics of the late Seventies and early Eighties are put back on the table, the resentments that taps are likely to cause far greater liberal than reactionary responses among swing voters. We should see this resentment/nostalgia politicking turn against the Republicans in the next year or two or three.

There are more complicated schemes from which to glean predictions, and they say that Democrats should be closing ranks in the next few months and the few minor defeats (Social Security is the only really cloudy battle) thereafter will be greatly outweighed by the victories- indeed, comprehensive breakdown of overleveraged Republican federal power- during the next two years. Democrats need to win (1) majority approval as a Party and (2) full control of the Senate. Republican control of the House and USSC and Bush Administration power are hopeless once those two things become the case.

Are there really any 'good' guys...well, it's been such a long and bitter war that winning for the better cause is about all the 'goodness' we can really ask for. Personally, I think the people who will emerge from it as the Party leaders and victors are the Clintons, Kerry, and Pelosi. I think we'll see a bunch of people emerge from the back corridors of the Party and its efforts into the public eye as things become inevitable. I think the closest thing to an FDR/Abraham Lincoln figure that the Party has at this point is Jimmy Carter. We have, and will continue to have, a lot of leading lights and "intellectuals" who are good people but difficult to regard highly because they can't quite catch up with the times.

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LdyGuique Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. We have one thing going for us that is new that is hopeful
Never before has any government had the daunting task of overcoming all of the eyes watching and minds telling. Propaganda works two ways. The press used to have its offices smashed up, radio and television stations were taken over by the government -- but the internet is worldwide and nearly unstoppable. Oh, true, it's possible that they might try, but an armed citizenry takes certain things very seriously.

There is a limit of just how much the RW can control the airwaves, and I think that they've hit the limit and it will start reversing itself. David Brock of Media Matters knows exactly how the RW operates, he came from it. Air America is just the first attempt -- there will be more. Eventually, the major media will have to fight back or be so marginalized that they lack all credibility.

However, I do believe that we are in the times that many have warned of over the years -- fascism is on the rise and it stalks the halls of government and justice. Keep shining the bright lights, it'll take time, but it's our only chance of keeping this peaceful.
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