We are a Christian nation.

[Clarkie1]

Now that I got your attention with that lie, please read on so you may better refute any right-wing religious zealot who tells you that.

I posted this in response to the tread started today about Arkansas refusing to pass a resolution upholding the separation of church and state, but it got me so angry I felt this topic deserved at thread of its own.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7013269/

:mad:

The founding fathers knew well the dangers of religious fundamentalism, particulary the Puritan Christian brand of it. Most of our well-known founders were "Deists," who held that neither Jesus or anyone else was divine (or else we all were divine...which is what I prefer).

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligble...Some books on Deism fell into my hands...It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the diests, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist."

-Benjamin Franklin, "Toward the Mystery" (autobiography)

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicaly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice....he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers...Gouverneur Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did.

-Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799

"As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of of Musselmen (Muslims), - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

-Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law by John Adams

And, my most favorite....

"I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not forgotten...The delusion...on the clause of the Constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favourite hope of an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own...the returning good sense of our country threatens abortion of their hopes and they (the preachers) believe that any portion of power confided to me (such as being elected president), will be excerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: FOR I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD, ETERNAL HOSTILITY AGAINST EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN."

-Thomas Jefferson, personal letter to Benjamin Rush (all-caps are also on Jefferson memorial)

"Finally, in answer to Fortescue Aland's question why the Ten Commandments should not now be a part of the common law of England we may say they are not because the never were."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

"I was glad to find in your book a formal contradiction, at length,...that Christianity is part of the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have adduced, is inconrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever existed...What a conspiracy this, between Church and State. Sing Tantarara, rogues all, rogues all. Sing Tantarara, rogues all!"

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright, 6/5/1824

[alcuno]

1. Isn't it interesting that the same people advocating for Iraq to be a

secular nation, want the rest of us to acknowledge the US as a Christian one. I am a Catholic and I really couldn't care less about having "In God We Trust" on the money or the Ten Commandments hanging in a courtroom. It's so irrelevant to my faith that it is almost laughable.

[FreedomAngel82]

9. They need to read this quote

"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion."~George Washington.

I've tried telling that to people and that Christianity is just popular and we're a nation of freedom of and from religion. But they just don't get it through their tiny little brains.

[Jokinomx]

19. I have never heard this quote.... do you or any other reader have

when and where he said this? I think its the best quote yet... short and to the point.... no messing around interpreting this one.

Thanks ...

:toast:

[dpibel]

21. It's from the Treaty with Tripoli

Ratified in 1797. For one of many discussions, see http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/buckner_tripoli.html (nothing particularly special about the article; just the first google hit I looked at)

[Jokinomx]

26. Thanks dpibel....

I really appreciate it.... and I didn't think about doing a google search. Duh... I have some VERY fundie Sisters that almost think chimp is the second coming of some kind. I have had to start a sub-Family page in order to post "controversial" material. With my new site I am able to voice freely my feelings and thoughts without fear of "offending" someone. They were all war supporters and I was very vocal in my outrage against it.... anyway this quote will be scrolling across the page for a few days...

:toast:

[pnorman]

2. THANKS so much for that compilation.

Here and there, I have most of those quotes squirelled away, but I now have the start of a master list. I'll transfer it into my PDA, and add to it from time to time.

pnorman

[Cats Against Frist]

3. I'm with you all the way, but I don't like the "pull-quote" game

simply because the delusionals and revisionists have their own form of the pull-quote game.

I prefer to attempt to (I say attempt, because you never know how many seconds you have before the person you're trying to explain this to starts frothing and drooling) explain the ideas behind the French Revolution, the Enlightenment, reason, the Declaration of Independence, and I explain to them that the founders were "sort-of Christian, sort-of not," TJ penning the Bill of Rights, etc. Then, I tell them about the deism and freemasons and the Jefferson bible, and all that.

They say, "No way." I say "way." They say "No. Way." I say "way."

It's sometimes tedious -- but if you just calm down and start explaining the "big picture," they have no choice but to grasp it. And, if they can crawl to the Internet, just tell them to google the Enlightenment, the Anti-Federalists and the Jefferson bible.

I applaud the pulling of quotes -- but we've seen this noise. They just pull quotes back at you.

[FreedomAngel82]

10. The problem with them

is they like to rewrite history so sometimes you have to use quotes and Jefferson's letters. They must be rolling in their graves.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

4. Greatest page nomination given and bookmarked. Thanks. nt

[Tigress DEM]

5. As a Christian I still believe in Seperation of Church and State

Christians (as Jesus taught us) should be tolerant of other's beliefs.

(He discussed this at least two times - with the Samaritian woman at the well and in discussing the Good Samaritian - Samaritians were people whom Jews despised and felt were not good enough to associate with at a common drinking font.)

Christians (as Jesus taught us) should take care of our own sins and let God deal with us individually. We are to lead by example and by compassion to bring the light of God into the world in order to help others find their way.

EX:
Take care of the log in your own eye, not the speck in your neighbor's.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Vengence is mine saith the Lord.
(Take up your....) and follow me and sin no more.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
...forgive us our sins as we forgive others...

And as for seperation of Church and State, Jesus had the kernel of it there also... give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.

The State is a community of individuals with a multitude of beliefs and it is in Church and by our example that Christians should live our lives in a way pleasing to God and respectful of one another.

We each according to our own beliefs should bring our highest good to our Country in order that it might flourish and as Jesus said, "those who are not against us are for us." Basically, if Christianity is tolerated and the Christians follow Christ's teachings then is when Christians are considered good and kind.

It is when we become as the Pharisees and focus on appearing more Godly than the next guy and it's all about show and not really about our own business with God that things become fouled up.

Tolerance is not promoting. Tolerance is living our own life and allowing others to live theirs.

[FreedomAngel82]

12. Hear hear!

Thank you. A lot of people on the religious right forget God gave us freewill. If people want to come to him they can. If they don't then all you can do is pray for them if you believe it. Pushing things onto people just makes them be farther away. These people who claim to be Christians who are on the pro-Bush team need to realize all this but they're so caught up in abortion and homosexuality. They need to read and study their Bible's more.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. Right. I've never understood why some people's faith is so weak

that they feel they need to have the Government backing it up, and foisting it on other people to boot.

Believe what you want. I'll do the same. Leave Government out of it. That, to me, is the essence of respect.

[imenja]

6. the Enlightenment

Every school child learns that the Enlightenment was the philosophical influence on our Founding Fathers. The Enlightenment was a secular movement that limited greatly the power of the Church, reducing it to purely ecclesiastical, rather than political, functions. Monarchy is the prevailing form of government for religious societies. Monarchs rule by divine right; their birth to a royal family signals they were chosen by God. Republics are led by men and chosen by men. Our government and our foundational texts were intended to be secular.

The whole idea of the US as a Christian nation stems from the mythology that all Europeans came to America fleeing religious persecution. This was important in the formation of the Massachusetts colony, but not throughout English America. Virginia was a royal company established for the crown's economic advancement. Georgia was a penal colony. The Carolinas were founded by slaveholders who migrated from the British sugar islands in the Caribbean. The reasons for the establishment of the colonies were varied, but the Founding Fathers were indeed deists. They were profoundly influenced by the Enlightenment and worked to create a secular form of government, a republic. If they'd wanted to create a Christian society, they would have kept monarchy as their chosen form of government.

[blindpig]

31. the Pope's new book

claims that most modern manifestations of evil are a result of the Enlightenment. What incredible arrogance, the blood the Church has caused to be spilled is immeasurable.

btw, my native state of Maryland was founded as a refuge for Catholics. Didn't stay that way for long.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. Thanks for the quotes

I knew that these guys were products of the Enlightenment, not fundamentalist Christianity, but it is nice to have quotes to go with it.

Here's another affirming the seperation of church and state. Though it is not a Founding Father, it is a source fundies ought to get to know:

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caersar's and unto God that which is God's." Jesus

[msongs]

8. a nation full of christ-ians does not guarantee christ-like behavior so

we might be a nation of christ-ians and still not be a christ-ian nation.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[BlueEyedSon]

11. Our religious founders were entirely hip to keeping god out of govt.

[Sapphire Blue]

13. 'Bloodguilty Churches' & 'The Despoiling of America'

These & numerous other in-depth articles about the Bush Agenda & the dominionist movement of right-wing 'Christian' extremism are available at 'The Yurica Report' website:

http://www.yuricareport.com

[NAO]

14. Dominionism, the Stealth Theorcratic Coup. Links to articles, video.

The hidden agenda of the religioius right constitutes a serious threat to American Democracy. Dobson and other Fundamentalist Radical Clerics like Falwell and Robertson are planning and executing a coup to gradually replace the free, secular democratic society of the United States with a Theocracy. This plan has been spelled out in detail by other radical clerics and is called "Dominionism".

It is critical that people become aware of the extreme agenda these people have for the United States and ultimately for the world. The results of the 2004 election were not a fluke or something that was drummed up over a period of months. It has been in planning for over 20 years, and what we are seeing now is, in the words of Katherine Yurica, "the swift advance of a planned coup".

The articles below are critical for understanding the Dominionist movement and for realizing how real and how detailed their plans are, and how far they have come toward achieving their goals.

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup: Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

Video on the Christian Reconstructionist Dominionist Theocratic Agenda
http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/video_dominion.ram

The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party
a public information project from TheocracyWatch.org
http://www.theocracywatch.org

The Yurica Report
http://www.yuricareport.com

[NAO]

15. Founding Fathers wanted secular government, but IF we were a Christian

Our founding fathers were Diests. Their thought was shaped by The Enlightenment. They deliberately did NOT put the word "God" or any references - not even any rhetorical references - to God or the Diety in the Constitution. The Constitution of the United States is an ABSOULTELY GODLESS DOCUMENT.

The pledge of alligence did not have the phrase "under God" for most of our history. It was only added during the anti-communest frenzy of the cold war. It used to be just "one nation, indivisible, with liverty and justice for all".

But, IF we were a truly Christian Nation, we would NOT have elected Bush nor would we tolerate ANY of the SOCIAL POLICY nor the ECONOMIC POLICY of the GOP, both of which are opposed by the teachings of Jesus Christ...

The "Christian Right" has got it WRONG on both the "values agenda" and the right wing economic/abolition of social programs agenda.

On Being a Christian Nation

Part I: Jesus vs. The Social Conservatives - Culture Wars in the Time of Christ

- Let Him Who Is Without Sin Condemn the First Gay (John 8:3-11)
- Foreign Objects in the Eyes, or Jesus Teaches Us How (and to Whom) to Apply Biblical Laws (Matthew 7:1-3)

Part II: Jesus vs. The Economic Conservatives - Did Jesus Teach Personal or Social Responsitility?
- Seperating the Sheep from the Goats, Based on Domestic Social Policy - Subsistence Programs (Matthew 25:31-46)
- Not My Responsibility? The Pharasee and the Levite Had Excuses, too (Luke 10:30-37)

Part III: Putting Parts I and II Together - On Being a Christian Nation
- What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply to Nations and to Government Policy?
- What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply only to Individuals?

**********************

Part I: Jesus vs. The Social Conservatives - Culture Wars in the Time of Christ

Let Him Who Is Without Sin Condemn the First Gay (John 8:3-11)

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Foreign Objects in the Eyes, or Jesus Teaches Us How (and to Whom) to Apply Biblical Laws (Matthew 7:1-3)

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Part II: Jesus vs. The Economic Conservatives - Did Jesus Teach Personal or Social Responsitility?

Seperating the Sheep from the Goats, Based on Domestic Social Policy - Subsistence Programs (Matthew 25:31-46)

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Not My Responsibility? The Priest and the Levite Did'nt Think So, Either (Luke 10:30-37)

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

Part III: Putting Parts I and II Together - On Being a Christian Nation

What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply to Nations and to Government Policy? What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply only to Individuals?

The Religious Right frequently emphasizes that God will Judge us "as a Nation". They combine this notion with their condemnation of certian behaviors of individuals, and this is the basis of the "culture wars". They rally for the government to pass laws that uphold Biblical standards. They want to outlaw sodomy, and ban gay marrige. Thus, they maintain that as Christians, we should not only observe God's commandments, but enact them as govermental legislation.

Curiously, when passages such as Matthew 25:31-46 are discussed, they typically quickly assert that charity - helping the poor, feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, and so forth, should be left to individuals and to the churches. They do not agree that these programs should be on the national agenda, nor do they beleive that welfare and other subsistence programs are properly the duty of the federal government.

Well, there you go. Those passages are so incredibly obvious, it boggles the mind how Christians can miss them so completely.

That they ALSO miss the point of the passage from Matthew 25 (Jesus vs. the Economic Conservatives) too is even more baffling!

And as if that were not enough - they are working to have the values agenda (which is nothing more than the condemning of others based on the Laws of Moses) built into the structure of government...but when you talk about building the helping of the poor, the feeding of the sick into the structure of government, they immediately launch into right wing talking points about how THAT is not the proper role of government, but should be left to private individuals and charities.

Now the words of Jesus quoted above indicate, beyond any doubt, that the exact opposite is correct in both cases. Adherence to the Laws of Moses SHOULD be left to private individuals and at most, the churches. We have been commanded by Jesus NOT to engage in the moral condemnation of others. Conversely, we have been commanded to feed, clothe and shelter those in need.

If Christians REALLY want a Christian nation, they should vote for a ban on condemning of sinners (unless of course you are 100% sin free, in which case feel free to blast them) AND they should provide a MANDATE for social programs.

[Tigress DEM]

20. Yah, mostly.

Sins like murder and stealing - especially white collar crime that costs us so much and never gets prosecuted - should be the purview of the government to dispense justice over.

Although I'm a Christian, I do think that if someone has proven themselves a predator - serial killer - mass murder - they should be promptly sent home to Jesus. Makes me bad, I guess.

I think the life and death matters to voting constituents should be mandated, no one should starve to death or freeze to death etc... but some programs can be more free will or a way found to make them self-sustaining so the program itself supports the people who need it and the imput of tax dollars isn't constantly rising.

ie attatching a cottage industry to a program so the people participating are learning skills and their products are supporting themselves and others who follow behind needing assistance.

[NMDemDist2]

16. America is Not a Christian Nation

by Robert Paul Reyes
MensNewsDaly.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"America is a Christian nation and it was founded on Christian principles." This is the Big Lie that is constantly being uttered from fundamentalist pulpits. This untruth has been repeated so often, that most Christians believe that Jesus Christ was one of the Founding Fathers of our great nation.

This was not true when America was founded more than two centuries ago, and it's certainly not true today; America is one of the most religiously diverse nations on the planet. It's this ethnic, religious and political diversity that's our greatest strength; religious polarization can only weaken our union.

If fundamentalists lie about this important matter -- they shouldn't be believed when they wax indignant on moral and spiritual matters. America is not a Christian nation; abortion is not murder; feminists are not witches; abstinence-only sex education does not work; SpongeBob SquarePants and Tinky Winky are not gay (not that there is anything wrong with being homosexual); and George W. Bush does not have a direct line to the Almighty.

Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ideals. The intellectual leaders who created America believed that human reason could be used to combat ignorance, superstition and tyranny; they had a natural animosity toward organized religion. It's not surprising that God is only a footnote in the grand documents that are the bedrock of our democracy.

The Constitution makes no mention whatever of any deity. In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist Papers, the Supreme Being is mentioned only twice. In the Declaration of Independence, the Big Guy gets two brief nods: A reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the often quoted line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."

If the Founding Fathers were Christians and they wanted to establish a Christian nation, then why didn't they mention Jesus Christ even once in a document that they knew would be the cornerstone and foundation of the emerging democracy? That's like Marx writing the "Communist Manifesto" without mentioning "socialism".

The distinguished leaders of the American Revolution were not devout individuals, and they fought energetically to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's immortal words, "a wall of separation between church and state."

If we define a Christian as a believer in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then most of the leading lights of the American Revolution were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists -- they believed in one Supreme Being but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of evangelical Christianity. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian; in his published writings he seemed more deist than Christian. In other words if these gentlemen were alive today, they would be more at home in a liberal Presbyterian congregation than at Jerry Falwell's Thomas Road Baptist Church.

It is latter-day interlopers who have breached the wall of separation between church and state. In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954.

If we really want to abide by the spirit of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence -- we will put an end to all this foolishness about bringing back God into our public schools. Those who imagine a Christian America would be paradise would be well advised to consider the theocracies of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Ironically, as our nation becomes less Christian and more religiously diverse, evangelicals redouble their efforts to make America more Christian.

Everyone who loves democracy and freedom must fight the efforts of fundamentalists to tear down the wall of separation between church and state. Jesus Christ may reign supreme in evangelical churches, but He should be kicked to the curb if He tries to scale the wall of separation and enter the political arena.

America is not a Christian nation. America is not a Christian nation. America is not a Christian nation. God, it feels good telling the truth. I may be a "little voice crying in the wilderness", but with the truth on my side, I will defeat a lie -- no matter how big.

[LostInAnomie]

17. I say...

... "If the founding fathers wanted the US to be a Christian nation why didn't they put it into the constitution?"

The nation had the highest concentration of Xtians ever, supposedly according to fundies the founding fathers were all Xtians, why didn't they put it in the constitution? Obviously they wanted the nation to be neutral on religion.

[EVDebs]

18. They were mostly FREEMASONS but everyone keeps saying deists

The flag is red white and blue because those are the colors of the 'degrees' of original Freemasonry (the other degrees were added on later). Red = 3rd Master , White = 1st Entered Apprentice, Blue = 2nd Fellowcraft.

The streets of DC are laid out on Masonic symbols of Compass and Square. In fact the "G" of the Washington Monument is the centerpiece with the Capital as the Eastern V ( the Jefferson Monument is the southern end of the Square with the White House as the northern end. The Compass is topped in the west with the Lincoln Memorial.

Dan Brown would be proud of this steganography 'in plain sight'.

Oh, and despite what idiots say, you can be a Freemason and a Christian simultaneously. George Washington is a perfect example. His Prayer for the Nation:

""Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in thy holy protection, that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large.

And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.

Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.""

A rather nice blend of Micah 6:8 and the spirit of I Corinthians 13, IMHO. And Washington's tolerance of Judaism is remembered in the Rhode Island synagogue annual reading of his letter to them:

""To the Hebrew Congregation in Newport Rhode Island

Gentlemen:

While I receive with much satisfaction, your Address replete with expressions of affection and esteem, I rejoice in the opportunity of answering you, that I shall always retain a grateful remembrance of the cordial welcome I experienced in my visit to New port, from all classes of Citizens.

The reflection on the days of difficulty and danger which are past, is rendered the more sweet, from a consciousness that they are succeeded by days of uncommon prosperity and security. If we have wisdom to make the best use of the advantages with which we are now favored, we cannot fail, under the just administration of a good Government, to become a great and a happy people.

The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants, while every one shall sit in safety under his own wine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.

George Washington Letter to the Touro Synagogue, 1790"" from
http://www.tncrimlaw.com/civil_bible/hebrew_congregation.htm

"light, more light !" is a frequent Masonic request for Divine guidance and illumination...make of that what you will....However, he did not, I'm sure, mean to demean them in any way by writing this Prayer for the nation with the mention of his personal saviors name (note the 'Divine Author' in the main body of the prayer). 'TGAOTU' -- The Great Architect of the Universe is most dutifully served by his humble servant George Washington, and TGAOTU, who knows the hearts of all men, would probably admit that by example, no matter what outwardly religious trappings a man cloaks himself in, his actions, by far, display the extent of his relationship with the Almighty.

The thing with Freemasons, especially back then, is knowing the coded speech. The secret arts parts and points etc etc can convey the meaning often better than obsequious public displays. Find the hidden messages.

Now, I've got to run...I've technically broken an oath and I'm subject to having my throat cut from ear to ear, etc, etc, etc, !!!!

[Hissyspit]

22. Here is a list of books on deism, church and state, etc.

that I posted earlier:

"The Religion of the Founding Fathers" David L. Holmes (professor, William and Mary)
http://www.wm.edu/research/?fetchid=3436

"The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion In America" by Frank Lambert
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691088292/002-9355517-4967257?v=glance

"The Myth of Christian America: What You Need to Know About the Separation of Church and State" by Mark Weldon Whitten
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573122874/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-9355517-4967257?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

"The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness" by Isaac Kramnick, R. Laurence Moore
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039331524X/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-9355517-4967257?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

"Why The Religious Right Is Wrong: About Separation of Church and State" by Rob Boston
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879758341/ref=pd_sim_b_4/002-9355517-4967257?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

"Thomas Jefferson & and the Wall of Separtion Between Church and State" by Daniel L. Dreisbach
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0814719368/ref=pd_sim_b_5/002-9355517-4967257?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

"The Jefferson Bible: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" by Thomas Jefferson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/080707702X/002-9355517-4967257?v=glance



And once again here's a GREAT Italian cooking website; lots of recipes:
http://www.thegutsygourmet.net/italy.html

[EVDebs]

33. Love Italian food ! BTW, you'd be a great Eastern Star ... but

nowadays I'm more in favor of E Clampus Vitus taking over the role that the Freemasons once had in keeping 'religion' out of government. The pharisees we have (The Fellowship, that Wayne Madsen writes about) are repulsive yet they are sponsoring Prayer Breakfasts.

There should be much weeping and gnashing of teeth !

[Mutley]

23. this line kills me

"It's clear that our founding fathers, that they wanted Christian beliefs," Lamoureux said. "The separation of church and state is not in our Constitution." ... found at the bottom of the article.

I don't understand how people can not only say, but also get away with saying things like this without being called on it.

[Mutley]

24. ...

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstatemyths/a/phrase.htm

Myth:
The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution.

Response:
That is true, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not actually appear anywhere in the Constitution. There is a problem, however, in that some people draw incorrect conclusions from this fact. The absence of this phrase does not mean that it is an invalid concept or that it cannot be used as a legal or judicial principle.

There are any number of important legal concepts which do not appear in the Constitution with the exact phrasing people tend to use. For example, nowhere in the Constitution will you find words like "right to privacy" or even "right to a fair trial." Does this mean that no American citizen has a right to privacy or a fair trial? Does this mean that no judge should ever invoke these rights when reaching a decision?

Of course not - the absence of these specific words does not mean that there is also an absence of these ideas. The right to a fair trial, for example, is necessitated by what is in the text because what we do find simply makes no moral or legal sense otherwise. What the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution actually says is:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
____

So, no, the constitution does not actually say seperation of church and state but it does say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." I'd like to know what people like Republican Rep. Michael Lamoureux think of that...

[LARED]

25. A comment

The founding fathers knew well the dangers of religious fundamentalism, particularly the Puritan Christian brand of it. Most of our well-known founders were "Deists," who held that neither Jesus or anyone else was divine (or else we all were divine...which is what I prefer).

By any measure I know nearly all Christian churches in the 18th century would be called Fundamentalist by today's standards. Also it is most likely a stretch to state that most of the founding fathers were Deists. I guess your qualifier of "well-know" covers you.

I have never understood the compulsion by some to paint 18th century America as a bastion of secularism. It was not. The vast majority of people would be called Christian zealots by today's standards. The idea that American is a Christian nation permeates our history, revising that seem quite pointless to me.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. 21st Century America isn't a bastion of secularism, either.. that's not

the point.

The point is that the people who were SMART enough to design that brilliant, living, 100% secular (the word "God" doesn't appear once) document known as the U.S. Constitution understood that it doesn't matter if 99.99999% of the population all believe that giant invisible orangutans from Sirius created the world and all the people on it, it's plainly not the function of the government to promote that belief. The Government of, by, and for the people is not "Christian" in character any more than it is Mint-Flavored. Lots of 'ideas permeate our history', but the fact remains that the folks who set out the architecture for our Government did not want religion and state intermingled, they did not want an official religion, and they did not want the State promoting Jesus any more than they wanted it promoting Zeus.

What is pointless is trying to dig around for ways to shoehorn a rationale for some kind of Christian Theocracy into the Constitution when that plainly goes 180 degrees against the intent of the folks who founded this country. And in case you haven't been paying attention, that is precisely what Bush and his gang of fundamentalist maniac pals are constantly trying to do, with this "Christian Nation" Bullshit.

[EVDebs]

34. Once again, Freemasons would be the operative word, not Deists eom

[DinahMoeHum]

29. We should take a cue from ol' George Washington himself. . .

whose birthday we just celebrated:

Link:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

"...the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion..."


:kick:

[Igel]

30. We can have a secular government and be a Xian nation.

If the founding fathers were influenced by the Enlightenment, but had been reared as Buddhists, we would have a rather different Declaration and Constitution.

One side overemphasizes the deist and theist rhetoric; the other the anti-deity trends of the Enlightenment. The founding fathers can be no more divorced from one than they can from the other.

I hope Iraq will have a secular government. But in no way will it not be also Islamic: the way the culture views crimes, customs, and what behavior is so proper as to be mandatory will be influenced by the dominant religion. The best we can hope is that the government will be respectful and tolerant--not necessarily accepting--of minority opinion.

On the other hand, any post mentioning the first war the US was involved in after independence, that against the Barbary pirates, is worthy of reading.

[Annette]

32. Christian nation

Thanks for this thread, I was just discussing this subject with a repuke, this will help

[Been Fishing]

35. You sucker punched me! And I fell for it.

The Arkansas resolution is something to be ridiculed in LTTE or by OP ED. It isn't a law that can be challenged in federal court.

[GOPBasher]

36. Thanks for posting those quotes. I'll have to use them

when right wingers decide we're a Christian theocracy.

[David Ippolito]

37. JESUSLAND... have fun, Clarkie!

My name is David Ippolito. I'm the composer and lyricist of the new song, "JesusLand". I want you to have it! In just it's first week, it's been played nationally on Air America (Mike Malloy) and once on the Thom Hartmann show, and has been rocketing around the internet.

But, man! I'm takin' alot of HEAT for this little song. Through my website, you wouldn't believe the ire it's aroused in some.

Now, I ain't lookin' to make a nickel on this song. I wrote it for YOU... to pass on for The People to have, and pass around themselves, and use however they want. (I really wrote it to poke Bush and Limbaugh and O'Reilly and their fans right in the eye. But, that's the darker motive.) It's really a song about the pandemic of hypocrisy in America today. And, it's just kinda fun. (I'm not a country artist. I just had to write it in that genre... satire... y'know?)

Here's the song:

http://www.thatguitarman.com/MP3/jesusland.mp3

Play the song as often as you like. (As composer and lyricist and publisher, I own all the rights.)

Remember, in America, SATIRE is protected speech... EVEN from those who just don't get it!

[DrGonzoLives]

38. Christ commanded that we celebrate Jubilee

You know, where every fifty years all debts are forgiven.

I could go for some of that, but the credit card companies won't let it happen.

[ArkDem]

39. I wonder if Jefferson would have been a

Steelers fan?