AP: Campaign Stop Comments May Embarrass Clark

[Printer70]

ROCHESTER, N.H. - After Wesley Clark (news - web sites) and his staff spent Wednesday tempering comments Clark made about John Kerry (news - web sites), a nighttime campaign stop at a VFW hall turned into a potential embarrassment for the Clark campaign. An introduction by a Vietnam veteran ripped Kerry, a fellow Vietnam veteran, for his war record and perceived lack of political experience. It was broadcast live on C-SPAN.

"John Kerry has had an extreme makeover in Iowa, he's gone from being a Boston-born man of privilege, a man of wealth — to a man of the people," said Brian Hardy, a commander of a VFW post in Littleton.

After Kerry won a surprise victory in the Iowa caucuses, which Clark bypassed to focus on New Hampshire, Clark suggested that Kerry's experience as a Navy lieutenant could not match his own as a four-star general. He toned down his remarks Wednesday, saying he wasn't trying to distinguish between his rank and Kerry's.

Clark advisers privately acknowledged the retired general's earlier comments about Kerry's military service may have gone too far and could end up being a costly blunder.

Hardy said Kerry "does not have the executive experience" to run the White House, and praised Clark for his long career of providing members of the military and their families with housing, health care and education.

After Clark delivered a well-received stump speech to more than 100 veterans and voters, he thanked Hardy for the introduction and quickly clarified his feelings on his rival.

"I consider (Kerry) a patriot, I consider him a distinguished senator, and I consider him a fine presidential candidate," Clark said. "It's up to the people of New Hampshire to draw a distinction between us."

Campaign spokesman Matt Bennett said that the campaign did not tell Hardy what to say and that Hardy had introducted Clark earlier Wednesday without mentioning Kerry.

"This doesn't help," Bennett said.
--
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=536&u=/ap/20040122/ap_on_el_pr/clark_kerry&printer=1

[Printer70]

1. Sorry, General

Sen. Kerry and those who put their life on the line for this country may object to your trivializing their sacrifice. To you, this is NOTHING compared to your four stars.

[Dookus]

2. LOL...

nice spin

You should've seen the actual speech, wherein Clark praised Kerry very highly.

The negative words about Kerry were spoken by somebody else, not Clark.

[Printer70]

11. LOL- read it again

After Kerry won a surprise victory in the Iowa caucuses, which Clark bypassed to focus on New Hampshire, Clark suggested that Kerry's experience as a Navy lieutenant could not match his own as a four-star general.
--

Sorry to break it to you- I don't care what that other guy said. Clark himself badmouthed Kerry's service. Bad form.

[Renew Deal]

35. Is that a direct quote?

Is that exactly what Clark said on Larry King? It is not. You should find out more about it.

[The Magistrate]

3. Gen. Clark, Mr. Printer

Was shot four times in Viet Nam; you seem to imagine he was always a general, but that is not how these things work.

A local V.F.W. chief says something in introducing Gen. Clark, and Gen. Cl;ark rebutts it with compliments to Sen. Kerry. Journalists looking for some slight angle seek to blow it up into something; no oine will notice much beyond tomorrow.

Certainly, the two men will eventually have to come to grips, and as both are serious and skilled fighters, it will be something of a spectacle. This is not even a skirmish by compare to what will come.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Printer70]

13. No Escaping It; Clark HIMSELF badmouthed Kerry

"After Kerry won a surprise victory in the Iowa caucuses, which Clark bypassed to focus on New Hampshire, Clark suggested that Kerry's experience as a Navy lieutenant could not match his own as a four-star general."

Ignore the comments by the guy that did the intro. I don't care what he said. But Clark shouldn't trivialize Kerry's service. Very, very poor form.

[NV1962]

14. Now that is interesting!

Perhaps you should start spreading an insanity meme about Clark: he refers to himself in third person when he speaks, apparently! Great quote from Clark there!

Try again.

;)

[Printer70]

17. Read this carefully- Clark calls Kerry a "junior" officer

Clark, who didn't compete in Iowa, told campaign workers in Manchester, N.H., that Kerry, a decorated former Navy officer, had a military background "but nobody in this race has got the kind of background I've got."

"It's one thing to be a hero as a junior officer...But I've got the military experience at the top as well as at the bottom."
--

[NV1962]

22. Look it up

A lower rank is referred to as "junior" - that's English language at work.

Hey, you could try this one instead: Clark is a metrosexual deviate, as he has experience as a "top" and a "bottom"

Try again.

;)

[Printer70]

23. LOL, and workers are "subordinates" right?

I trust Clark will now refer to the majority of workers in America as "subordinates" and treat them with appropriate disdain. That's just English at work, right? More than semantics of English, it says a great deal about how out of touch that pampered prince is with the ordinary soldier. Picking targets in an air conditioned office for decades can do that to you.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

16. This Has Been Jawed To Death Here Today Already, Sir

In a colloquy with Dole, after Dole suggested results in Iowa demoted Gen. Clark to "colonel", Gen. Clark replied to Dole Kerry was a Lieutenant, while he was a General.

As a matter of practical fact, the experience of a Naval Lieutenant, in terms of executive authority and administrative experience, does indeed fall far short of that gained by a full General commanding a Theater force, and wielding the considerable diplomatic authority of the NATO commander.

You are going to have to do a lot better than this, Mr. Printer. It is damned thin gruel....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Printer70]

19. No, No, No; I'm referring to this quote...

Clark, who didn't compete in Iowa, told campaign workers in Manchester, N.H., that Kerry, a decorated former Navy officer, had a military background "but nobody in this race has got the kind of background I've got."

"It's one thing to be a hero as a junior officer...."But I've got the military experience at the top as well as at the bottom."

[The Magistrate]

39. That Quote, Mr. Printer

Is dealt with in the second paragraph above.

To refer to a lower-ranked officer as a junior officer is proper English usage, and conveys no insult whatever, certainly not to anyone with military experience or knowledge, which will include all the veterans, upon whom you feel this statement will have some ghastly electoral effect. It will not.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Bread and Circus]

34. Your theory is in search of reality...

and it is still searching.

Relax.

You are blowing it way out of proportion.

The Magistrate has got it right.

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. what i find interesting is clark's emphasis on his executive experience.

anyone consider the military as comparable to the office of the president? the military is all about taking and giving orders that better damn well be obeyed. what happens when clark starts to try and order congress? bwaaahahaha....

his immersion in that culture is obvious in his interviews too. my god...i do not want that mind set in the white house. there should be a separation of powers between the military and executive branch.
the defense department has it's culture and it's necessary there. i just don't want that mindset spreading throughout the government.

[NV1962]

4. Where's the beef?

The "attack" (got thin skin?) came not from Clark. The evening before, Wes Clark corrected Bob Dole in an amusing smackdown -- last time I checked, correcting mistakes with pure, cold facts wasn't a smear -- and in the meeting in NH, Clark himself intervenes to correct an overzealous Kerry-bashing local "introducer"...

So where's the beef?

Besides, that "introducer" was a Vietnam veteran, so applying some latitude to him seems appropriate - which makes it all the more a class act that John Kerry's back was protected by Wes Clark.

So, why is John Kerry hiding behind Wes Clark's shoulders, anyway? Is he so ashamed of his veteran-related policies that he now fears facing them?

(I mean, given the spin cycle here, I'll twist along...)

Pure BS that suggestive topic title!

[DannyRed]

5. As I was saying in the "Self Destruction"

thread....

Now you get to see it happen to your very own candidate before your very own eyes.

It matters not what Clark ACTUALLY said.

It matters not the truth or honesty behind what he said or meant.

It does not even matter that the charges are totally baseless, totally trumped up, and can be dispensed with it 5 easy sentences.

ALL that matters is the headline, the theme, the meme.

Sorry.

Clark is "unelectable" because he "denigrated a veteran's service"

Right?

[The Magistrate]

7. None Of This Matters, Sir

None of it will matter. Journalists have to work their gums, like rats have to grind their teeth. You are paying far more attention than is necessary to this. The press just wants to pick a fight between Gen. Clark and Sen. Kerry, and one will come soon enough anyway.

A story-line has to have some inherent credibilty to gain wide traction, and this is true no matter how widely pushed; as Mr. Twain observed, fiction must make sense. "The General denigrated a veteran's service!" strikes the ear like jumbo shrimp, and no professional propagandist will waste much effort on it.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[overground1]

18. It doesn't require "credibility", it only requires being repeated often

and worked in as an angle to stories constantly. The media will develop and refine these angles until they suddenly are "credible".

The mind works in interesting ways. Our memories are colored by our present mindset. Dean didn't seem particularly "angry" or "unstable" to anyone months ago, but after the months went by and the constant baseless smears piled on, many people's minds gave in to the propaganda. Now those who have, suddenly remember Dean as being angry and unstable. What we dismiss as baseless today about Clark or Kerry or Edwards will be conventional wisdom after enough media reprogramming, and the people will look back at them through this colored prism as well.

[The Magistrate]

38. Not True, Mr. Ground

You place the cart before the horse in these matters. It is those lines which strike a chord through their credibility, usually by distilling to its pith an inchoate perception that is already widespread, that are pushed un-endingly, and so take deep root. Skill at the art consists in sensing early what line has such credibility, and so ought to be leant on hard.

Your analysis of Gov. Dean's difficulties reflects this. Gov. Dean impressed me on first sight as a very pugnacious fellow, and this has been a leading part of his charm to his committed adherents. Pugnacity can be virtue, providing a person can keep it on a tight leash; everyone knows that, and knows that people like to indulge their natures as well. Therefore, it takes very little for persons to be convinced a pugnacious fellow is unable to keep a tight enough rein on his natural proclivities. That is why, with a little help from himself, this line had proved effective against Gov. Dean, and been taken up widely over time.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[NV1962]

8. Huh?

Sorry, but did you really, seriously mean to infer there that I somehow "imploded" under some sort of "attack"?

Neither is the case.

I have been staying clear from the "yell" nonsense because, well, I think it's a nonsense issue.

If at all there's something that raises my eyebrow, is that the word "implosion" is coopted by a few of Dean's supporters, here. I call that collecting self-inflicted injuries.

As to silly memes: kill 'em, kill 'em all. Born to kill!

But with smart counter-acts of course, not by responding in the intended manner.

En fin... Just my .02!

(However: thanks for interacting with civility on this sensitive issue - I appreciate that.)

[DannyRed]

6. Oh, and I should say,

printer,

that you are doing yourself, democrats, and dean no service by assisting in the spreading of such falsehoods and trumped up crap.

[The Magistrate]

9. Well Said, Sir!

You are quite correct we ought not to be spreading these things among ourselves; unfortunately, there are some who place ideological pique above eviction of reactionaries from the office they usurped.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[NV1962]

10. Bravo!

Hope to see more of this gallant honesty also among, uh, my peers in the Clark camp, too.

One thing is to give in to campaign enthusiasm, another is... Well, that destroying / village / saving thing.

We are in this together after all: all after Bush that is.

[RafterMan]

12. Thanks, Danny

And I'll add that a few Kerry supporters watched the event and were very appreciative of Clark's praise for their candidate.

If printer watched and honestly thought it was terrible slander, his post is okay with me. But if not, we shouldn't feed the media's bloodlust.

[Printer70]

15. I'm sorry that you hope to deny reality- here is the quote

"After Kerry won a surprise victory in the Iowa caucuses, which Clark bypassed to focus on New Hampshire, Clark suggested that Kerry's experience as a Navy lieutenant could not match his own as a four-star general."

Forget about what the guy who introduced Clark said. His comments aren't important. Clark himself suggested that Kerry's experience could not match his own.

Here is what he said:

--
Clark, who didn't compete in Iowa, told campaign workers in Manchester, N.H., that Kerry, a decorated former Navy officer, had a military background "but nobody in this race has got the kind of background I've got."

"It's one thing to be a hero as a junior officer...But I've got the military experience at the top as well as at the bottom."
--

[NV1962]

20. So?

Looks like a truthful statement to me.

Nothing wrong with that.

Badmouthing is when Clark would suggest that Kerry is a lousy candidate because of the rank thingie.

Or, when someone tries to misrepresent Clark's factually 100% correct statement as "badmouthing" - that's badmouthing, too.

Which simultaneously proves the point that badmouthing is a bad idea - it makes the owner of the bad mouth look silly.

Try again.

;)

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NV1962]

24. Sorry

But not only are you losing it here, you're losing form, too.

Do you know what / who I am? What my experience is? Thought so. Keep your inferences about a participant's personal life out of your arguments.

Also, don't jump all over the thread repeating yourself - especially when you're a bit incorrect: Clark has collected a little bit more hardware, if you're really into that sort of irrelevant comparisons. It's not the metal - it's the candidate and the issues here. And Clark is totally correct in stating that Kerry had a junior rank, whereas he (Clark) has gone through the career, all the way, which makes him more qualified on relevant (military-related) issues. It doesn't mean Kerry is unqualified (or "bad" or anything like that) just that Clark is more qualified in that regard, that's all.

Try again.

;)

[Printer70]

26. LOL

Nice try. Your candidate is toast with military rank and file- and the American people who actually think more of a soldier who won purple hearts for valor than a perfumed prince who has written memos for the Pentagon for decades. Time's Person of the Year is the American soldier. But Wes Clark, the perfumed prince, thinks little of their acts of valor- they can be neatly summarized as the insufficient acts of "junior officers".

[Dookus]

27. LOL...

very very amusing.

I think Clark's standing with veterans is just fine, despite your concern.

Clark likes Kerry and speaks very well of him. Your feigned indignation over this fake "attack" is most enjoyable.

[Printer70]

28. Very Amusing Indeed

...that Clark is an out-of-touch elitist who has spent too much time in an air-conditioned office penning memos to remember what sacrifice on the battlefied meant. A knee-slapper!

[deminflorida]

29. Really, If you think that Clark is toast with military rank and file...

you'd better check out:

Vietnam Veterans Against Kerry.

I won't post it, it's to slanderous. But you can search for it....

Those warm showers with Jane Fonda....that's going to get Kerry with the older Vietnam Vets.....

Check out the allegations of supporting a withdrawal plan that would have given no negotiating room and stranded POWs there. They won't like that shit neither...

[creativelcro]

30. As they say on the Apprentice: "You're fired."

[Tatiana]

33. Well said!

This type of false rhetoric does us no good. Those of us who actually SAW the interview and heard the comments knew Clark, in no way, meant anything negative against Kerry. Indeed, the two candidates have made some very positive statements about one another.

[cryofan]

31. This is really reaching!

I am quite surprised that this has been deemed worthy of "gaffehood". I saw the comment: it was said jokingly. And the comments by the third party......well, they seem rather innocent, since they were from a supporter, not a campaign staff member.

[snippy]

32. True. This is just propaganda from Bush supporters.

[returnable]

36. Whatever. Kerry's campaign pulled a similar stunt in Iowa

On the stump last weekend, the guy Kerry saved in Vietnam alluded to another "military man" in the race who's integrity had been questioned by his peers.

Gee, who was he talking about? :shrug:

All just a bunch of posturing.

[Clark Can WIN]

40. Very Damning

"I consider (Kerry) a patriot, I consider him a distinguished senator, and I consider him a fine presidential candidate," Clark said. "It's up to the people of New Hampshire to draw a distinction between us."

Terrible, just terrible.

I like both of them, obviously Clark first but I'd be glad to back either Kerry or Edwards with vigorous enthusiasm if either gets the nom.