I really don't understand the Hillary infatuation....

[election_2004]

I know this has already been discussed at great length here, but I thought I'd share my own perspective on it.

Someone please explain to me the benefit of handicapping the Democratic primaries in favor of Hillary Clinton, this early in the process...???

It seems like the Republicans, the DLC Democrats, some liberal Democrats, and the media are all clamoring and cheerleading for Hillary Clinton to automatically be the Democratic presidential nominee in 2008 - - for different reasons, of course. They're acting as though it's a foregone inevitability.

Here's what I think their motives are:

Republicans: Many in the GOP are convinced that Hillary Clinton would be absolutely creamed nationally, so they want to see Hillary nominated in order to embarrass the Democratic Party. The anti-woman Republicans also believe that taking down a major feminist icon like Hillary in a national presidential election would discourage additional women from running for future generations.

Democrats: the pro-Hillary factions within the Democratic Party love the novelty of having Bill Clinton back in the White House (even if only as First Gentleman) with Hillary as the first woman president in one fell swoop. They know that Hillary is ruthless, and they believe she could take down any Republican who is nominated and that she could win the White House. They also really want to "stick it to the Far Right" (by nominating the person whom the Far Right loathes the most - - which is, arguably, Hillary Clinton), regardless of whether or not she's the best or most qualified candidate.

The Media Whores: whether or not Hillary wins or loses a presidential race would be irrelevant to them - - having Hillary be the Democratic nominee in the first place would guarantee tons of "controversy" and "excitement" for them to sensationalistically cover. If Hillary loses to a Republican in the presidential race, it results in Big Headlines and causes Rupert Murdoch to have a political orgasm. If Hillary wins the presidency, it results in Big Headlines and guarantees them at least four years of even-more-escalated sensationalistic back-and-forth bile between the Left and the Right, under a President Hillary.

Conservatives who control the media also realize that, even if Hillary Clinton is elected president, her presence at the top of the Democratic ticket would lose an additional chunk of U.S. Senate seats (including open seats and vulnerable Democratic incumbents) in many of the red states in 2008.

Instead, what activists within the Democratic Party should be doing is looking at which possible Democratic presidents would be most EFFECTIVE once in office. This can be done by examining both the ADVANTAGES and DRAWBACKS (and every possible candidate has them!) of every possible presidential option. Obviously, there will be no perfect candidate, and anyone who runs will have done/supported at least some things that many of us disagree with.

If the goal is to find someone more moderate who can run an appealing campaign to the masses, check out these options:

Evan Bayh -
http://www.americansforbayh.com

Blanche Lincoln -
http://www.lincoln2008.com

Mark Warner -
http://draftmarkwarner.com/

If you're looking for someone more liberal to run for president and take a stand, try:

Russ Feingold -
http://www.draftruss.com/

Barbara Boxer -
http://presidentboxer.blogspot.com/

I'm obviously biased, because I'm personally on the Draft Committee to encourage Senator Lincoln to run, but no matter who you prefer (Warner, Bayh, etc.), you have to admit that any of these other people in office would refocus public discussion back on the ISSUES and what's going to be best for the country...

...whereas if Hillary Clinton becomes president, the political environment will just become even more of a shameless, silly, tabloid-esque circus atmosphere than it already is - - perpetuated by resentful Right-Wingers, gloating and "Nyah! Nyah!"'s from people Left-of-Center, and the feeding frenzy created by the Talking Heads and the rest of the media whores. Things are bad now, but they'll become even worse, and we'll be an even more laughable society in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Would you not put it past an emboldened/strengthened Republican Senate majority, between 2009-2013, to filibuster EVERY and ANY major judicial nomination or major legislation that a President Hillary Clinton would try to promote? Even if the GOP dared to "go nuclear" on the Democrats prior to 2008 (which, in itself, is a huge risk), they would probably just change the rules back if they still control the Senate in 2009 (which they very possibly could, if it's Hillary Clinton whom the Southern and Midwestern Democratic incumbents/challengers for the U.S. Senate have to try to "ride the coattails of," in the red states, during the 2008 election cycle).

Hillary could get a lot done (legislatively) if she remains in the U.S. Senate past 2006 and chooses to become a major power player there, but if we allow the elitists to succeed at hoisting Hillary into the White House, whether she wins or loses, we'll all be a lot worse off in the long run.

[NMDemDist2]

1. at the risk of losing my "Woman in Blue" label

i agree

edit to add, I think Joe Biden might be an OK choice

[papau]

14. Indeed I like a Hillary/Biden ticket - in either order!

:-)

[woodleydem]

28. Hillary/Bayh is more likely

That would put Indiana into play.

[googly]

108. Very astute prediction......my hat's off 2 ya

[ElectroPrincess]

33. Then I honestly regret that the Democratic Party may have to ...

be BEATEN down to the point of near extinction before the genuine Representatives shed the corporate pay-offs and choose to represent the people first.

It may not ever happen, and instead, we are destine to suffer years of fascism, but I will NOT ever sell out to the DLC's Corporate Puppet-Masters.

Every sane, thinking person KNOWS that Hillary will lose and lose BIG.

[pauliedee]

35. She's weak and a republican kiss ass

She has no core. She is weak and republican kiss. She sat next to McCain the other day and told us how great the Iraq war was. I nearly puked on the spot.

[hedgehog]

110. Surely you're joking!

Both have sounded good at times, but folded right when we needed them. Check out Biden and the bankruptcy law hearings yesterday.

[pauliedee]

34. Kerry a GREAT leader and better choice

Kerry is a much better choice. He's a GREAT leader who'll fight the repugs to the death. He's got the integrity, honesty and grit that Hillary lacks.

[NMDemDist2]

48. i wrote him in 02 to run and I'd support him again if he's up for it n/t

[hippiechick]

2. Hillary would be the party machinery's choice.

Bayh, however would be worse than just about any other option. Does the name Dan Quayle ring a bell ? Both products of Indiana, both brainless pretty boys living off the family legacy because they can't get a real job.

Bayh's positions change depending on his audience, and as a former state worker I can tell you the smoke and mirrors game he and his administration pulled on the people of this state would make Bush proud.

Stay far, far away from Mr. Bayh.

[pauliedee]

36. Kerry a better choice and a GREAT leader

I agree Bayh cannot be trusted. I also agree Hillary cannot be trusted to fight for democratic principals. Next thing you know we'll be hearing about Joe "Zell" Leiberman. !@#$%^&

Kerry a better choice and a GREAT leader for our party. He's got integrity and Grit!

[stpalm]

3. gogo Feingold

[Jacobin]

4. I'm with you

Recipe for disaster, imho

[KT2000]

5. All I know is the repugs

want her to run.
They may be getting tired and figure that their truckloads of opposition research they have already done on her would save them some time and expense.

Also know I don't want her to run for president. Not crazy about some of her hawkish policies.

[Sapphire Blue]

6. Boxer's got my vote!

[election_2004]

8. Boxer rocks!!!

I don't know if she'd be electable nationally, but I'm looking forward to having her become my new U.S. Senator within the next year.

[Cuban_Liberal]

7. I don't personally know a single Democrat who's for Hillary.

Who in the hell are these people who comprise this 'groundswell of support' for Hillary? All I know is that I live in the bluest state between the Appalachians and the Rockies, and I don't know a single soul who wants to see Hillary at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. .

:shrug:

[election_2004]

9. Wading through Democratic Underground...

In between all the anti-Hillary posts, there is always a noticeable handful of people who seem hell-bent on supporting her and perpetuating the inevitability of her nomination.

Even when I've gone around suggesting other moderate U.S. Senators to centrists online, I usually get the reaction of, "He/she doesn't have enough foreign policy experience"...combined with..."What is Hillary, chopped liver?" (in rather defensive tones)

[Clark2008]

87. Clark, Clark, Clark

Give us someone us blues in red states can work with to flip the colors!

PLEASE THINK ABOUT THE GENERAL ELECTION!

[ldf]

96. always a noticeable handful hellbent on supporting her

it's a setup.

that's the way the republicans do things.

THEY frame the debate and THEY then push their agenda.

while bill was president i worshipped the ground they walked on. and i wouldn't have been one bit disappointed if hillary divorced his ass as soon as he was out of office. but i also respect that she decided to stay.

since he's been out of office, and as i watched them sabotage the party for 2004 just so the elite could retain power, i changed my tune.

yes, bill is a great man, and probably one of the most intelligent men, once who gets the big picture, we will ever have had in the whitehouse. although, of course, not perfect. quite a few mistakes.

but hillary still has to prove herself. i sure like her as my senator, and think she should stay there and become the next ted kennedy, giving the republicans a major case of heartburn for the LONG term.

if she DOES break out and become presidential material, it will be obvious.

[pauliedee]

37. Me neither...everyone hates her

even democrats can't stand her.

[DemocracyInaction]

10. Today I became convinced of what's up and we have to get it together

After watching a small slice of Meet the Press I finally became convinced of what I've been suspecting. The media is definitely beating the drums for Hillary and nothing but Hillary on the Dem side. They don't even mention someone else as some remote choice. They want her because, just like you have pointed out, she is news they can sink their teeth in, rip apart and kill and put in another Republican OR if she should win (which she will not) they know she will whore for the corporations just like Bill and on the side they can run a freak show that brings them viewers. This woman is poison and we have to lose her now. She brings nothing but disaster to the Dem party. Her husband was no goddamn Democrat but a moderate Republican and we don't need more of them. We need a real Democrat and I'm not sure one exists anymore. BUT--and this might not be what you want to hear----we have got to lose all these people from the past (like all the people who ran for the nomination last time). We need fresh blood.

[election_2004]

11. The MTP lovefest...

The incident you described from "Meet the Press" this morning is EXACTLY why I'm so disgusted by the mainstream media and the disservice it is doing to this country.

[papau]

15. she will NOT whore for the corporations - which is why the right hates

her.

But there are many good Dems that are possible in 08.

It is a bit early to be locking in hating - or promoting - a given name - IMHO!

:-)

[Jacobin]

26. She supports the bankruptcy 'reform' act which is

corporate whoredom at its absolute worst, impacting more than a million families in crisis per year.

Even Bill threatened to veto this legislation.

[pauliedee]

41. What a disgrace

Thanks for tyhat heads up!

[papau]

64. Not quite true - the bill has a super majority now - but she has forced

changes - granted not as many as she would like.

Remember the history of how Hillary stopped this bill - in all its many variations - from 1995 to 2001. Indeed during the last year of the Clinton administration folks met with Hillary Clinton in New York City to discuss the bankruptcy-reform proposal then pending before Congress. After Warren described to the first lady how the consumer-credit industry gradually was destroying America's middle-class families, Hillary Clinton returned to Washington and single-handedly, says Warren, convinced President Bill Clinton to change his position that the bill was improved enough to sign.

In December 2000, President Clinton vetoed the most sweeping changes in the bankruptcy law in 20 years be-cause he said it was unfair to ordinary debtors and working families who fall on hard times, but Hillary has voted as Senator for a variation of the bankruptcy reform bill. The changes asked for by Clinton in 2002 involved how much a debtor can protect in the value of a homestead, or primary residence, from seizure by creditors. The Senate would limit the exemption to $125,000, but the House didn't set a limit. Five states, including Bush's home state of Texas and his brother's home state of Florida, allow debtors to keep homes of unlimited value. Critics of current laws contend that some unscrupulous debtors with a lot of assets to protect actually move to those states and buy expensive homes before declaring bankruptcy.

With other Democrats, she insisted that it contain a provision preventing abortion clinic protesters from filing for bankruptcy to avoid paying legal fines - Such a provision was added to the 2002 version of the bill - and it appears the GOP have agreed the 2005 version will include such a provision.

The 2004 election results have made further resistence futile. Kennedy's shield of individuals whose bankruptcies are the result of soaring medical costs went down to defeat as the GOP did not join in his concern. Other proposed and defeated amendments included proposals to prevent companies from seeking more lenient federal jurisdictions when filing for bankruptcy protection, and proposals to increase the home equity exemption for elderly individuals seeking bankruptcy protection.

[pauliedee]

40. Kerry a better choice

We need honesty and integrity, not corruption and pandering to repugs. Kerry a better choice

[pauliedee]

39. She has no core

I agree the conservative biased media is definitely beating the drums for the corrupt Hillary. They want her because she is news and they can put in another Republican. They rip Dean and Kerry because they are a REAL threat to beat them.

She'll whore for the corporations just like Bill. We need integrity and honesty in the white house. We need John Kerry in 2008!

[lancdem]

12. I think you make some good points

but I believe Hillary would be a fine president, if she actually ran and won. I know the right wing would go after her something awful, but they'd go after anyone we ran. Look what they did to Gore and Kerry - guys who supposedly didn't have "character issues" like her husband. He won two terms, and they never made it to the WH. The right hates Hillary the most, but they'll relentlesly attack anyone we nominate. The key is having a nominee WHO FIGHTS BACK.

I like Hillary, but there are number of other good candidates we can field in 2008, and I like them, too.

[sendero]

20. They'd go after anyone...

... yes that is true, but with Hillary half their work is already done.

She is so hated she would lose by a landslide. I'd go to the mat for anyone who deserved it, but why would she? She's pro Iraq war, her health-care plan was dead on arrival for many reasons but mostly because she tried to please everyone, and basically she is exactly the kind of Dem we need fewer, not more, of.

Any time the media whores and the Repugs are wanting something, it is because they have done the polling and they know they can sink Hillary like a lead balloon.

It's astonishing to me that any Dem would give her a second thought.

[pauliedee]

42. Kerry much stronger candidate

Kerry fights back real hard! Remember how he flattened "Boy George" in the debates. Bush was clearly intimidated when they shook hands and later pouted while being steamrolled.

He can finish the deal. We need to stay loyal to Kerry for 2008.

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. I still think she should be on the Supreme Court.

Not only do I think she'd be a great Justice, or Chief Justice, but it would drive the Freepers insane for at least a generation.

:evilgrin:

[jonnyblitz]

16. LOL, yup the freepers heads would be exploding!

they seriously think she is the anti-christ! :hi:

[SixShooter]

17. Think the GOP turnout was high this year?

Just wait if Hillary runs....the right will go bonkers

Oh and if Hillary Clinton cant win in a national election, than Barbara Boxer will be lucky to grab three states..

Kerry
Feingold
Warner
Edwards
Clark
Bayh
Sebelius

[woodleydem]

29. Passionate hatred isn't enough to defeat her

If an extremely fired up base is all that is needed to defeat the opposition, then Kerry would be President. The Democratic party was energized, passionate, and united in their hatred for Bush. Kerry raised more money than any other Democrat in the history of American politics, due to the fact that Bush was such a great fundraiser for Democrats. In the end, none of that mattered. Hillary is tough as nails, and she's a fighter. It won't take her campaign three weeks to respond to a swift boat-like attack. Her campaign team has been in the trenches for two winning national campaigns. She has a chance.

[tritsofme]

66. That's what they said in 2000

The "broken glass Republicans"

They would step into broken glass to get rid of Clinton/Gore.

That was another media myth.

As we found out in 2004, rarely will a candidate win when people are more united against his opponent, than for him.

[SheilaT]

18. The question to be asking yourself is

why should we be putting any energy whatsoever into who might run for President in 2008? Now, more than three years before that election? Who benefits by having Democrats chase each other around over this, arguing and getting all heated up about it?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

And keep in mind that with Howard Dean as DNC chair, the powers that be are not going to the powers that be in the same way any more. He understands that the Democratic Party is NOT the bigwigs inside the Beltway, but the ordinary folks like us out in Kansas, or elsewhere, who are living our boring little lives and who care a great deal about what's happened to this country since the coup of 2000.

What we should be thinking about now is how to win more seats in the House and Senate in 2006, how to elect more Democrats to state government, and so on. NOT whether Hillary will or will not run in 2008.

She's a fine woman, an upright Dem, and a good Senator from New York. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

[zulchzulu]

19. Russ maybe...but the others you mention...um....bbbbzzzzzttttttt...

I'm seriously leaning on supporting Kerry in 2008...we have some unfinished business to get back on the Repugs.

Hillary? Maybe a cabinet gig...

[pauliedee]

43. John Kerry has more grit

I agree that we should tend to unfinished business from 2004.. Kerry had our back, Now we must have his. I will not cease until he's our prez. Go Kerry 2008!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. The "celebrity" theory of politics.

It's not what a politician stands for, votes for, says, or what experience, education, or even background he/she has. It's how "well known" they are that counts. How well they look. How well they "identify", etc.

Does anyone really believe that a nincompoop like Bush could be president if he wasn't the original nincompoop's son? Would Hillary be a senator from New York if it weren't for the celebrity of being Bill's wife?

Or, the jocks, talk show hosts, etc, that infest congress?

Or, as the ultimate, the muscle bound idiot in the Governor's mansion of California?

[Mist]

22. Why in the hell would the Democratic Party

consider a candidate chosen for them by the Rethugs and the MSM? I mean, whose playbook do they want to use, the opposition's? FWIW, Hillary is too middle of the road and too DLC, IMHO.

[pauliedee]

44. Repugs want Hill so they can win

I agree she is the repugs' choice. That's precisely why we should NOT choose her. They are scared of Kerry bigtime. He almost overcame tough odds. They fear him. Trust me. Bush peed in his pants many times during the campaign.

[illflem]

23. The only reason 2008 is being discussed

is because the 24 hour MSM doesn't have enough to fill in all the hours.

[sendero]

24. Another reason..

... that the Repugs might wish for Hillary to run is that they are considering running Condi. Having it be a woman-to-woman contest would hedge their bet by factoring out the gender component.

[Mabel Dodge]

25. Sometimes I just shake my head

and wonder if this is really a place for Democrats.

It's not going to be easy on the first woman to run for POTUS. In fact it is going to be a freaking circus. She will be torn apart even if she were Mother Teresa.

But it's time for someone other than a damn white man to represent America. Someone has got to start somewhere and Hillary is tough, smart and can take the heat. I'll even go for Boxer if she thinks she can take it.

Now show this old feminist some love and stop disparaging the first female who has the gumption to make a stab at running. For Pete's sakes she isn't perfect but she might just have a chance if we ban together and support her.

[pauliedee]

46. No Way !@#(*&^$!!!!!

She's not a good democrat when she brags about how good the war is going in Iraq! @!#$%^&*!!

We stand for a competent foreign policy, not pandering to Bush.

[Mabel Dodge]

69. Good Democrat?????

Well now this is were the "political" part comes in.

In this day and age liberal isn't playing well in America. I, along with many life long liberals hate that fact. I can't tell you how much I detest the war, Boosh, and where this fine, beautiful country is heading. With that said, I know that Hillary is playing the game. She has to, she has no choice if she's to get elected.

What do you think would happen if Hillary would come out against the war? Do you think SHE would get elected then? Don't you think that SHE would be seen as weak? One of the reasons Boosh got elected was that he was seen as strong....

She doing the best she can in the system she has to work in. If you hate "politics" then work on changing the system. But right now it's what we're stuck with. Washington is a game, a deadly serious game and Hillary knows what she has to do to come out on top.

[election_2004]

70. That still doesn't really answer the question...

So what makes Hillary more qualified or more electable - - in terms of running for president - - than any other Democratic woman in Congress?

[Mabel Dodge]

86. She has the experience and she's ready.

Who else is tossing their hat in the ring?

[Donna Zen]

78. What would happen if Hillary had come out against the war?

Playing Politics with war..with bombs and lives...is digusting. You're correct thou, that is just what was done. Putting the next election over the doing what was right.

Hillary was and is doing what is best for Hillary. Am I suppose to respect her for that? Am I suppose to vote for that?

Name one state that voted for bush that will vote for Hillary? Arkansas...? There is plenty of baggage there and if I wouldn't risk a cent betting on it happening. Ohio? Iowa? Georgia? Florida?

What will happen is that NH will turn red.

The Hillary supporters are counting on there being no opposition. What they need to count on is that there will be no ABB.

Looking at the "base" vote, their base is now bigger than our base. That means you must turn voters. (the middle split in our favor) How many republican voters will switch for Hillary?

If Hillary decides to get into the presidential race, she will 1) suck up all the media time 2) suck up all the money 3) suck up all of the union support 4) suck up all of the major endorsements. So yes, she can win a Democratic nomination. But can she win the White House? No. I can read, and I've looked at the map. Apparently so have the republicans and the MSM. Maybe some Democrats can do the same, but at this juncture, I think not.

[Mabel Dodge]

85. Playing the game is disgusting, but it's the game we're stuck with

Playing Politics with war..with bombs and lives...is digusting. You're correct thou, that is just what was done. Putting the next election over the doing what was right.

Hillary was and is doing what is best for Hillary. Am I suppose to respect her for that? Am I suppose to vote for that?

Washington is disgusting and playing the game is disgusting...so have you figured out a way to change the currant system? Tell me WHO is going to come out against the war and win in this political climate? Now if a draft starts THEN that will be a different argument.

As far as your statement about red states not voting for Hillary, where's the data? Don't confuse Hillary with Bill, she is her own person and is making headway in reaching moderates, which frankly are the majority of Americans.

As I have said before, the first woman to run and the first woman to be elected will not have an easy time of it. Hillary can take the
heat and open the door for other woman. If for no other reason, she deserves your vote, unless of course a woman as POTUS isn't a priority of yours.

[Donna Zen]

89. Giant leap back-wards:

Hillary has reached moderates? Where's the data on that?

I asked if there could be one state that Kerry lost that Hillary would win? I'm from New England and I know New Hampshire politics: Hillary will lose NH.

Medea was a woman, I wouldn't vote for her.

Hillary of course is not Medea, but that seems to be the only reason being given for voting for Hillary. What exactly has Hillary stood up for? Saying you support things while voting against them, doesn't count.

With the majority of Americans being female, one would think that we could have broken that glass ceiling long ago, but you are correct, we haven't. So in a time of war, women must play the uber-hawk? What kind of coercion is that? Backbones mean something.

If Kerry had been against this war from the get-go, he would have won the last election by a high enough percentage to avoid the theft.

Personally, I value honesty and integrity in people. If you are telling me, that those qualities are low priorities, then I fear for this nation more than I did a few moments ago. Your approval of Washington bought-and-sold to the highest bidder politics, will certainly reinforce a corrupt system.

[Mabel Dodge]

94. Honesty and integrity in Washington

Personally, I value honesty and integrity in people. If you are telling me, that those qualities are low priorities, then I fear for this nation more than I did a few moments ago. Your approval of Washington bought-and-sold to the highest bidder politics, will certainly reinforce a corrupt system.

I'm glad you value honesty and integrity in people, so do I, but I'm not naive enough to believe that is the case in Washington. It hasn't been so in my life time, in fact I can think of only one President that I would bet money was totally honest, (take a bow Mr. Carter)!Frankly it's more of a question on who is lying to you the least.

Now before you swoon into a black depression, the good news is that sometime you have a canidate who plays the game in order to do the right thing. You pay attention to the actions, not the words.

On my other post to you I gave you this link on how Hillary has voted. Take a look at her actions (by the way Hillary is hardly an "urber hawk").

http://www.issues2000.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm

Now allow me to turn the table on you, tell me which honest politician with integrity do you support? Keeping in mind that Mr. Carter and Abraham Lincoln are no longer viable candidates.

[Donna Zen]

97. Hillary is an uber hawk

If she's not, she has a strange voting record. But those aren't her kids she sold out to this war to position herself for a presidential run.

[Mabel Dodge]

101. Oh for Pete's sake...Hillary IS NOT an Uber Hawk

That statement is ridicules, what proof do you have to support that statement?

This is what I found to the contrary.
Rated 100% by SANE, indicating a pro-peace voting record
http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Hillary_Clinton.htm#War_+_Peace

[Donna Zen]

104. Pro-peace?

She just said the Iraqi war was going great...I guess that doesn't count. Oh_and exactly what weapon systems has Hillary voted against? By how much will she cut the defense budget? How does one find money for health care when this war is robbing us of every penny?

Did she insist that the inspectors get to finish their job? Hmmmmm?

More people are dead in Iraq today...many more. Hillary may think of that as successfully peaceful, but I doubt that their families do.

You do understand that Hillary voted for the IWR, has never supported the anti-war people. Has along with the DNC treated the anti-war movement like space aliens.

Hey_fine_you know politics is dirty and requires decisions tantamount to selling ones soul. After all, if its good enough for republicans, its good enough for me. Is that it? And I say, as long as you support this pallid form of government, as long as you support the Hillary's, then you will get more and more of them and less and less representation.

Hillary's okay with the Patriots Act. I'm not. In the end, the Constitution is the most important thing we can defend.

Funny_you would support all of this because winning a nomination is so important, and yet, you do not care about winning the election. You think that selling out makes Hillary appealing to moderates. Nothing makes Hillary appealing to moderates. I'm talking base politics, the politics that will determine whether we win or lose in 2008. Hillary Clinton's ultimate selfish desires mean nothing to me because they do not build the base.

[Mabel Dodge]

114. Does your dog have fleas? Blame a Clinton!

So Hillary is to blame for the war, maybe you should throw in America's economic problems, does your dog have fleas?? Oh it's because of Hillary. Sound familiar? It should, Democrats have been getting those same messages about Bill Clinton ever since he took over the White House and its still continuing 5 years after he's left.

Now I guess it's Hillary's turn.

You stated in one of your posting that Hillary is an "uber hawk"...well not by any stretch of the imagination. She's a moderate who was put in a very bad position by the Bush administration when they lied about WMD.

Hillary Clinton, who recently returned from Iraq and Afghanistan, said she agreed with Gingrich. She blamed the administration for "miscalculation" and "inept planning" in Iraq. "I do think we need more troops" in Iraq, Clinton said. She said she believes in giving the chief executive the authority to wage war, as her husband did in Bosnia and Kosovo. "But I regret the way the president has used the authority."
http://www.issues2000.org/International/Hillary_Clinton_War_+_Peace.htm

Hillary did vote for the IWR, but so did Kerry. At the time both Kerry and Clinton were concerned about a real threat to the US, they didn't know they were being lied to by Bush.

"Obviously, I've thought about that a lot in the months since," she said. "No, I don't regret giving the president authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States, and clearly, Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for the international community for more than a decade."

Finally about the politics in Washington, I don't like the system, and I've spent time doing my small part in trying to change it. But I'm realistic, Washington is what it is, politics are a dirty business. I really doubt there is anyone in Washington who isn't a little dirty. With that said, I still have faith in the Democratic Party that the overall momentum is for the good.

Our politicians (like Hillary) are trying to reach out to as broad a base as they can in order to get elected, so they can carry out our Party's missions. Sometimes that requires compromise, savvy and yes, playing politics.

Trust me, whoever it is that you support, I guarantee that they are playing the game. If not, they aren't even in the running.

[bling bling]

77. *Me shaking head along with you*

It's unbelievable.

[election_2004]

79. No, what's unbelievable...

Is the blind support people have for Hillary as presidential material just because she's a high-profile woman who pisses off the right-wing.

[bling bling]

80. "Blind" support?

She's been around for a long time. There's a lot about Hillary that doesn't get discussed here. She has a LOOOOOOOONNNNGGGGG history of fighting for issues that we care about.

What's unbelievable is that "we", of all people, are jumping on board with this "blind" hatred for her based on sound bytes and clipped articles highlighting the negative things about her.

[Mabel Dodge]

102. I'm beginning to think the unreasonable hatred

is worse here than in Freeperville. Before everyone judges her so harshly take a look at her record.
http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Hillary_Clinton.htm

[bling bling]

111. And it goes back farther than that.

She was working to make a difference on the issues that we all care about as far back as the 1970's. I was trying to find a report I wrote about her in college but I guess I lost the file. Sometimes I feel like I could list out the positive facts all day/all night and it wouldn't matter. People, many of them anyway, only focus on the data that supports what they want to hear.

[Mabel Dodge]

115. Amen

See my post, "Does your dog have fleas? Blame a Clinton!"

[Andromeda]

120. Who's blindly supporting Hillary?

I sure don't see it here on DU.

You would think Hillary is the anti-Christ the way some of the folks here talk about her.

Maybe she's not perfect but she's a helluva lot better than the pond-scum we have in the White House now.

And if some of you keep trashing our candidates, including Hillary, you can kiss the 2008 election goodbye. Democrats need to band together and support one another, NOT tear each other down.

If Hillary is the candidate, then I will support her 100%. If it's Minnie Mouse, Daffy Duck or Bugs Bunny, I will support them.

You guys just don't get it! That's why we lose elections.

Stop trashing other Democrats just because you don't like their views on ONE stinking issue -- or because they're not far enough left to suit you or their ideology isn't "pure" enough for you.

Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but DU is not representative of the rest of the country. Most mainstream Democrats haven't even thought of who is going to be the Democratic candidate. The only reason Hillary is mentioned so often is because the Republicans hate her (and IMHO, they're afraid of her) and the far LEFT-wing hates her -- not everybody in between.

Don't speak ill of other Democrats. None of them are perfect but they need our input, support and encouragement because they're all we've got.

[independentchristian]

27. It's all about Bill Clinton

Period.

They loved Bill and the years under Bill and Hillary benefits from that, period.

Now, staunch, fire breathing feminists may disagree and say that that sounds sexist, but it's a fact.

If she wasn't "Mrs. Bill Clinton" so many people wouldn't be pushing her for the nomination, period.

It is "all" about Bill Clinton. Classic case of coattails.

[Mabel Dodge]

45. If you could be just a tad more respectful please.

Now, staunch, fire breathing feminists may disagree and say that that sounds sexist, but it's a fact.

Could you please use some imagery a little less sexist to get your point across?

When Hillary was first lady she made a name for herself as an independent person apart from her husband....unlike, oh let me see...LAURA.

[independentchristian]

53. What makes her more qualified for President than any other...

...woman in Congress?

Feinstein, Boxer, etc.

Nothing. Give me Boxer anyday over Hillary and Feinstein, and no, all of them would not be "great," Hillary and Feinstein as the nominee would suck. The only thing that makes Hillary "more appealing" is the fact that she's "well-known" because she was first lady because "she is Bill Clinton's wife."

That's what the "Hillary Infactuation" is all about. All about. She isn't any more qualified than anyone else, but not everyone else is married to Bill Clinton.

[Mabel Dodge]

68. Boxer huh?

Sure I would support Boxer, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

As far as Hillary riding on Bill's coat tails...where the hell did you get that idea??? Hillary is definitely her own Woman, in fact I can't think of anyone with more cajones (male or female) than Hillary. I've heard a lot of criticism about Ms. Clinton, but I must say "riding on Bill's coat tails" is a new one on me.

What do I like about Hillary? Many things some big, some small...but mostly I feel this is the first woman who really may have a shot at becoming the first woman POTUS. I know all sorts of people from all walks of life who like her and respect her and will vote for her.

She is a powerhouse, tough, smart and knows how to play the game. More importantly of all the women in politics, Hillary is the one that has a real chance at becoming President. She has done the work to put herself in that position.

[Donna Zen]

81. What has she stood up for in the Senate?

This is not meant as a snide comment, I follow politics, and yet it seems to me that Hillary has not been there when the people needed her to be.

Patriot Act?

War?

Protesting the vote suppression?

No Child Left Behind?

People v the megaBanks?

The Stolen election?

911 investigation?

Holding bush accountable?

Those issues are important to me. Although Feingold has voted "yea" on some nominees, he has had the courage to stand up, and his seat is not as safe as Hillary's.

[Mabel Dodge]

90. On Hillary's issues.....

Ok you can go to this site and look at her record.

http://www.issues2000.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm

The following are a few of my favorites:

Strongly Favors Sexual orientation protected by civil rights laws

Favors More federal funding for health coverage

Strongly Opposes Privatize Social Security

Strongly Opposes Decrease overall taxation of the wealthy

Strongly Favors Seek UN approval for military action

Favors Abortion is a woman's right

[Donna Zen]

92. Hillary's issues

Looks like every other Dem. That is not a bad thing.

How does she feel about BBV? In Conn. last year she said it was okay.

How does she feel about the Patriots Act?

She seems willing to move away from choice if it works for her. But I guess that is just part of the evils of politics.

How does she feel about recently divorced women losing everything to creditcard companies?

How does she feel about No Child Left Behind?

What has she proposed to shift the tax burden back onto the shoulders of the wealthy?

[Mabel Dodge]

100. A few things about Hillary

Hillary on the Patriot Act – Perhaps this is politics or maybe she had a change of heart, looks like Mr. Kerry was in the same boat.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-05-24-clinton-bush_x.htm

“Hillary Clinton seems to have the same problem John Kerry has when it comes to being on both sides of this issue," Laymen said. "After voting in favor of the Patriot Act, both Hillary Clinton and John Kerry now attack this common sense law. The Patriot Act allows law enforcement to use the same tools they use to fight crime to stop terrorists."

Hillary on "No Child Left Behind"
http://www.friendsofhillary.com/news/20040330c.php

"By passing the buck on No Child Left Behind, Congress leaves our local taxpayers and our children bearing the burden," said Senator Clinton.

Hillary on BBV
http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=129

"Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat of New York, has introduced a bill that would require a paper trail and security standards for voting machines. Her bill is similar to an earlier entry sponsored by a fellow Democrat, Representative Rush D. Holt of New Jersey. "What's required for money machines should be required for voting machines," Senator Clinton said in introducing the bill. "We must restore trust in our voting, and we must do it now."

I can pull more links, but I have a feeling based on how long this debate has been going on tonight, that you are not going change your mind overnight. Take a look at this link and do some googling on Hillary. She isn't the dragon lady...she's a tough, smart woman and hopefully our next President.
http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Hillary_Clinton.htm

[Donna Zen]

106. Voting vs rhetoric

Finegold voted against the Patriots Act because he understands that he swore to defend and uphold the Constitution. Hillary voted for it. Now she is wooing you and every other gullible person that somehow she's changed her mind. So why did she ignore thousands of letters asking her not to support this most anti-American bill?

NCLB: Hillary and Kerry both voted for this pork ladened Trojan Horse. The problem with this bill is far greater than the lack of funding. This bill is meant to take down the public school system. I know, I battle this bill everyday. (Thanks Hillary) The statement you have posted is the usual tripe: sound and fury signifying nothing.

When she had a chance last summer in Conn. to address the problem of BBV, she endorsed it along with Chris Dodd. Suddenly with one finger in the wind, she introduces a bill that will never make it to the floor of the Senate. It will however cover her butt so that she can fool some of the people some of the time.

You want to spend money to lose. I'm not ever going there with you. Fine_have a wonderful time, I don't doubt for a second that with all the money and media at her disposal, she will get the nomination. The republicans will run a seemingly reasonable candidate that has a much better chance of winning than Hillary. Her handlers think that there is a slim chance of getting her elected so I'm told. Repeat: slim. They think that there is a way. The big surprise is, that the slim chance doesn't take much into account, like having a republican run against her.

[WI_DEM]

30. I don't quite understand the Clark infatuation either

but to each his or her own.

[trayfoot]

31. I agree......................

I was just listening to Meet The Press and Biden was saying how strong Hillary will be. Much as I admire Hillary and Bill Clinton, I believe that Hillary will be a polarizing candidate, much as GWB has been. I think we need someone who can and will focus attention on ISSUES - not on personalities. Now, we know the neocon element will do anything - and I DO mean ANYTHING - to demonize our candidate, regardless of who that candidate turns out to be. But, why give them the ammunition of Hillary Clinton?

[pauliedee]

47. She's got a fake laugh

It makes me not trust her one bit seeing her cackling with John McCain telling us how great the invasion of Iraq was. She's got a fake laugh too. Disgusting.

[pauliedee]

32. Kerry a GREAT leader who'll fight the repugs to the death

Kerry a GREAT leader who'll fight the repugs to the death.
I fyou're looking for a GREAT president who'll stand for competent foreign policy, civil rights and will protect jobs then you want John F Kerry.

Hillary is too bust telling us how GRREAT the Iraq war is...!@#$%*&^%!!

[independentchristian]

38. Kerry will "fight"???

Haven't we already seen how weak his "fight" is?

[pauliedee]

49. Kerry annihilated Bush in debates

How quickly you forgot how Kerry annihilated Bush in the debates.
Bush was shivering when they shook hands and then making faces while being pancaked.

[independentchristian]

51. I'm talking "The Day After"

[marcologico]

50. He's fighting now. Did Hillary sign Durbin's letter? No. Did she vote

for Condi? Yes. Kerry signed and voted no.

[pauliedee]

59. Durbin letter

What was Durbin letter about?

[marcologico]

67. Letter to Bush calling for Gannon inquiry, signed by Kerry Friday. Link:

"Five Democratic Senators Sign Letter to Bush Calling for Gannon Inquiry"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1623666

[NightOwwl]

52. True. He backed off because he didn't want to ruin his chances in '08.

And I was mighty pissed; still am, as a matter of fact. But I would vote for Kerry over Clinton in a heartbeat.

[pauliedee]

55. Kerry still fighting hard for us

It was important that other dems like Boxer, Tubbs Jones take the lead in opposing the election results. If Kerry did, the conservative biased media would have lambasted him as a "sore loser".

However, Kerry is still fighting hard for us and the voter suppression issues. He is involved in the Boxer Conyers bill. It's time for you to forgive Kerry and fight hard for him in 2008.

[independentchristian]

56. He backed off because he was just playfighting with his fellow Bonesman

You don't really know what to believe any more.

Two parties is only one more than a dictatorship and when you have bonesmen in both parties, and moonies in both parties, PNACers in both parties, one can argue that it's already a dictatorship.

Anyone coming from "the government" should be disregarded come '08.

Only "some" governors and other outside of the Beltwayers should be taken seriously.

[Joe Turner]

75. I agree

Not sure when it happened, but over the years the torrent of billions in lobbyist cash has in effect melded both parties together on many issues. Issues that just so happen to be the most criticial issues of the day. For example, you won't find much difference anymore on the issues of trade, foriegn policy, immigration, pre-emptive wars, business regulation, outsourcing in either party. And such differences that do exist are invaribly on the margins and little more than political posturing. IMO, both parties are captives to big business and certain special interests that have no connection with "We the People".

[Rainscents]

54. I will NOT vote for Hillary! I am a die hard Liberal!

She will be Republicans time bomb! They would love to see her run. I would much rather see, Conyer/Boxer ticket.

[sellitman]

57. I like Conyers & Boxer too....but...

First they have to fix the machines. Without accountability in elections we couldn't win with a reincarnated John F Kennedy.

[OneBlueSky]

58. neither will I . . . and I'm also a die hard liberal . . .

who voted for Hillary for Senate in NY . . . if she supports bankruptcy "reform" again, she'll lose my vote there, too . . . as will Schumer . . . I'm just sayin' . . .

[googly]

60. Hillary infatuation is the easiest to understand......here is why...

1. Bill Clinton's getting elected TWICE rubs off on his wife

2. Hillary is sounding more centrist every day

3. Hillary is so much more experienced than neophyte Clark

4. Hillary has so much more poise than angry sounding Gore

5. Hillary looks so much more alive than cancer patient Kerry

6. Hillary has so much more in depth political experience
than one termer Edwards.

[wisteria]

62. The Kerry comment was uncalled for.

Mocking people who have had cancer is low. I also don't happen to agree with your assessment of Kerry. He appears alive and very active from what I have seen and heard.

[googly]

73. Presidential politics is brutal, raw and unforgiving, I have the

highest sympathy for Kerry's health situation, but that
is not the main topic here. We are talking about who has
what it takes to win votes n 2008. IMO Hillary has every
current front runner beat in that regard.

[Stand and Fight]

63. Whoa... Slow down bub!

That comment about Kerry's cancer is uncalled for and completely out of line. Some of us -- I'll have you know -- have lost loved ones to cancer and may have had /do have it ourselves. Your list is based on the superficial and does not accurately portray the reality of politics.

[googly]

71. I have the highest sympathy for Kerry's health, but we are talking

about the raw game of presidential politics. Let's
face it, the candidate has to come across as likeable,
good looking, vibrant. The stark truth is Hillary beats
Kerry in all those items. If you can't get votes, you
can't win no matter how smart or knowledgeable you are.

[HeatherG.]

76. Not In My Opinion

I find Kerry more likeable then Hillary. Hillary comes off as phony to me. Is she really phony? I don't know. I personally find Kerry better looking then her also, even though he is too skinny and his jaw is too large to be called conventionally handsome. I wouldn't describe either as vibrant.

[election_2004]

65. But that begs the question....

Why do people assume that Clark, Gore, Kerry, and Edwards are the only alternatives to Hillary Clinton who should be considered?

[googly]

72. Very valid point, you are making. I just compared the presumed

front runners for 2008 with Hillary.

[Donna Zen]

82. Don't know who made it,

....but this is pretty close to the same post as was made last night on another thread. A new mantra? I answered with what I thought was a thoughtful post. It was never responded to.

Hillary isn't sounding centrist...Hillary is center-right these days. You find that wonderful, it makes me puke. First, because it sells out Democratic ideals, the very ones that support everyday Americans and that includes women. But mostly, because her selling out is putting the her political future over what is good for people.

Hillary will win the Democratic nomination for one reason: money. She can buy the best, she will get the media attention, and she has long salted the political waters with the PAC bucks.

Some people seem to approve of that brand of government, personally, I think it is why we the people are being shafted. Why our kids are dying for nothing. Why the banks win and we lose. If that is okay with a voter, than so be it.

BTW, Hillary will not win one state that Kerry lost. She does not re-brand the party no matter how many times she exclaims on MTP that the Iraqi war is just great. All this selling out will not win the White House.

I hate losing elections because the MSM and a bunch of money bags want us to. New republican slogan: "She's Good for Rush's Ratings--So How Bad Can She Be?"

[Clark2008]

88. Running NATO makes one a neophyte?

Sorry, I don't buy the corporate media spun yarn.

And, what about those "fresh" faces everyone here wants.

Oh - and you think you almost turned Virginia blue with Kerry - get ready for it to slam it's red doors on Hillary. Same with Arkansas. Tennessee and West Virginia.

I, for one, am never and will never be infatuated with Hillary. I'm not even sure I'd vote for her if she was the nominee.

[googly]

93. Has Clark ever been elected to any office?

If there is another burst like the "I was a general, Kerry was
just a lieutenant", and Clark has not proved himself to withstand
campaign grilling, Clark will be the biggest disaster since George
Romney's comment "I was brainwashed".

[Clark2008]

99. And you've been brainwashed - by the MSM

I saw that interview live and Bob Dole goaded him into making the comment, which in context, wasn't such a bad thing. I didn't even notice it.
However, upon being reported by the MSM, it came across as some sort of lame challenge, which it wasn't.
That said, Clark has learned the ropes and I've since watched him take Tweety down and Faux down and Scarborough down and REFUSE to let them reframe his words. He stays in their face until THEY shut up and he can finish his thought and get the correct statement out there. Period.
And, what damn difference does it make if he has ever been elected to office? My criteria for picking a president is "Does he know how to lead. Does he have my best interest at heart." I couldn't give a rat's ass if he/she has ever been elected to office. I honestly don't get that criteria out of anyone.
Clark is a leader - both on the battlefield and in implementing a goal - and that's what I want in a president - a leader.

Now, YOU shake hands and come out fighting.

[googly]

107. If Clark survives the primaries, then I will accede to your opinion

but my guess is Hillary will be coronated by acclamation.
Just watch. She is already polling way ahead of every one else.

[wisteria]

61. I would like to see Kerry run again.

Comparing Hillary Clinton's experience with that of John Kerry, I think she comes up short and I haven't been given any compelling reason to give her my vote.

[Joe Turner]

74. Nor I

If the Democratic Party wants to lose another presidential election Hillary will do the trick. Truth is, Hillary does not sell well in the South or in Fly-Over Country. No amount of campaign spin, money, and marketing can change the negative perception of her in these regions--which are absolutely critical for success in 2008.

The Powers that Be in the DNC must intervene and stop the Hillary Express, convince Hillary that she does not have a chance of winning the presidential election and broker a deal with her as an incentive to stay out of race.

I honestly don't think this country can take another 4-8 years of more of the same corrupt, imperialist Neo-Con Republican cronyism. As it stands, when current the Moron in Chief leaves the political stage, this country will be bankrupt and in tatters domestically and internationally. It will desperately need a strong willed democratic president to repair the damage.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

[solinvictus]

83. She's a polarizing figure...

I believe she'd be defeated, simply because of the residual hatred of her on the hard right. Furthermore, she's displayed none of the principals of leadership I believe we need from a presidential candidate. Biden's anointment means nothing this early, it's all smoke and mirrors from the establishment.

[Geek_Girl]

84. If democrats want to win the White House in '08

They'd better nominate Clark, he's the best shot we have IMHO.

[Clark2008]

91. Yep. I could work with him in a red state and possibly change it to blue

That is my goal - and I don't understand why it's not the goal of more Dems. WE HAVE TO GET BACK THESE VOTERS!!! WE HAVE TO STOP POLARIZING THE COUNTRY!

[Donna Zen]

95. Base politics

For all the talk on this thread of why people vote the way they do: so that they can win the next election regardless of doing what is right, I think they are preaching not only a disgusting message, but the wrong message.

The data from the 2004 election showed that the republican base is growing and our base is shrinking as a % of the total vote. With that in mind, it is important to "grow the base" and suppress theirs. Hillary will have just the opposite effect.

Think about that. I'm being lectured on "back-room" stab and slab politics by people ignoring the reality of the situation.

I don't hate Hillary. She has proven to be a great disappointment with spineless voting and she is willing to put herself before people. But even so, if she had a chance to win??? well, maybe.

She will win the nomination because she can. She will lose and set back the fortunes of braver and more deserving women when she does.

This is sad. It really is.

I'm suppose to say "okay, let's lose because I'm a woman and she's a woman." How enlightened is that?

[Bride of Cthulhu]

109. your right Wes Clark is the best shot we have.

Hillery would take the party down in flames.She has no chance of winning.

[Hailtothechimp]

98. Hillary = RWMF

That's Right Wing Masturbation Fantasy. They want it oh so bad. And hopefully they'll never get it.

[marcologico]

103. I thought that was Ganny boy :)

[snowbear]

105. Hillary....

I have to agree with Hail2theChimp.. If you look at just about any progressive (non-wingnut) website, message board, forum, whatever.. like Hail and others here said.. it's only a handful of hardcore supporters that are cheering on a Hillary 2008 run. Only a handful. :shrug:

Not only is "Hillary 2008" the RW dream scenerio.. but the media is completely fixated on the story big time..

Nothing against Senator Clinton. She's awesome.

But in 2008, our candidate... whoever it might be.. is going to WIN the blue states, the red states, and the inbetween states.. :kick:

[Totally Committed]

112. "I really don't understand the Hillary infatuation...."

It's call a death-wish where I come from.

The Dems have got a big one, and it shows with every "leader" they annoint.

Democratic Party Leadership: What are you thinking?

I don't think WINNING is back on the agenda yet.

TC

[election_2004]

113. Well, my point is being proven...

It appears as though Mabel Dodge, bling bling, and googly are the official pro-Hillary Intimidation Tag Team in this thread (I knew one would pop up eventually).

Too bad they can't actually cite evidence as to what specifically makes Hillary "more qualified" than the other potential Dem presidential candidates.

[Radical Activist]

116. She's a woman

There are a lot of women in the party who like to see a strong female leader, and want a woman to be the nominee for President. That's where the majority of her national support comes from. I'd be happy to see a strong woman be the party's nominee as well, but I would rather it be a progressive woman, not a moderate corporate Democrat like Hillary.

[election_2004]

119. Boxer

I know that a lot of progressive voters have been rallying online for Senator Boxer to make a presidential run. What do you think Barbara's chances would be?

[Enquiringkitty]

117. I have heard good things from Boxer for a good while now. Hillary

is indeed the choice of the media for reasons already mentioned in this thread .... she represents high ratings for the nightly news Yes! They fight for ratings too. They didn't use to even get ratings in the past (40s & 50s), they were more of a public service since they were public broadcast but now they are entertainment. I am waiting for the news to be a category at the Emmy's soon .... daytime awards just like the soaps and "Oprah". I like Hillary but she brings issues with her that can be used to distract from the issues and we need to beat them on the facts of the issues not have to fight about past gossip or if she is, as I've heard Reps refer to her as Mrs. Bill.

[election_2004]

122. That begs the question...

Since the pro-Hillary contingency is obviously aware of this, do they WANT the public to be distracted from the real issues? Because that's what's going to happen, if Hillary is the nominee.

[googly]

118. Hillary is polling head and shoulders above others and will be

nominated by acclamation. I am willing to bet some
hard earned dough on this.

[B Calm]

121. They want to worship her vagina.. Just like they did Bill's Penis..