What The Hell Is Up With All You Dennis-Lovers??

[mermaid]

Dennis can't win.
Sorry. but he can't.
He's dead on arrival.

No WAY will ANY of the center go for someone as far-left as Kucinich.

It's a damn shame, because I think Dennis and I would agree on most issues.

BUT, DAMN IT ALL, I WANT TO WIN!!!

And Dennis is, unfortunately, not the guy who can get us there, IMNSHO.

[cidliz2004]

1. So true

but it is fun to dream that somebody could actually be elected because of his stances on policy and not on how he is marketed and who his owners are.

[mermaid]

2. I Agree

But this is the real world. And in the real world, Dennis ain't got a chance!

I sure wish it were different, because I agree far more with Dennis than not.

i'd LOVE to see Dennis President. But it won't happen. AND I WANT TO WIN!! I am SICK of being governed by Republicans!! I swear if we don't get a Democrat in, SOON...I'm going to go bonkers!

[benburch]

We tried it your way. (Kerry)

If you cannot bring more than second place to the table, then "Lead, follow, or get the hell out the way."

[mermaid]

4. Kerry Wasn't My Way!!

I didn't want Kerry. I voted Edwards. As it turned out, Edwards wound up VP Nominee.

Having said THAT...Kerry WON...if you take back all the miscounts, the non-counted votes, and the lies and cheats of Team Bush.

I'm certain Kerry actually won. but without a paper trail, we will never really know.

Similarly, I'm convinced Gore won in 2000.

It's hard to win when the other team counts the votes, you know.

[President Jesus]

76. right. Kerry was overwhelmingly the voters' choice.

this 'we tried it your way' crap is so inane.

[mermaid]

5. Do You Want A Total Disaster??

That's what a Kucinich ticket would be. A trainwreck. Remember Mondale/Ferraro, 1984?

Do you really want to have the NEXT Republican President actually be able to LEGITIMATELY claim to have a mandate??

I think Dennis would get SO creamed that the Republican victor WOULD be able to claim a mandate, legitimately...and then we would REALLY be fucked.

[benburch]

6. And on what do you base your wild assertion?

Look, we did Gore, we lost.

We did Kerry, we lost.

And if you didn't notice, the GOP can turn 1% into a mandate any day of the week.

You don't seem to have any new ideas or new tactics. Or do you? How do we win this thing next time with another DLC darling? I'm listening. Teach me.

But if you cannot bring anything to the table, you owe it to your country to stand down.

[mermaid]

7. Fine. But Pick Someone Who Can Do Better Than ONE PERCENT

in the last goddamn primary!!

You think someone who did a piddly fucking one percent in last year's PRIMARY has a chance in HELL of winning the WH??

Puh-fucking-leeze!!

Damn, I like Dennis. I agree with him on most of the issues. The problem is...the center doesn't. And we need some of the center to come along or we're fucked.

That's just the real world.

ON EDIT: And in case you didn't notice...Gore did not lose. neither did Kerry. It's awful goddamn hard to win when the other team counts the votes, and there's no goddam paper trail!

Gore won the popular vote. Woulda won floriduh, too, if not for the cheating.

Kerry got more votes than any in history against a sitting war-time President. Kerry raised more money than any candidate in history.

When your boy Dennis can even come CLOSE to matching that...then you got a chance. Right now, Dennis can't even manage TWO percent in a fucking PRIMARY race!! What the HELL makes you think he could win in a general election??

[cidliz2004]

12. We have to look to the mood of the country

in 3 years the country might be so right wing shocked that they would be ready for a left candidate, especially with Dean in the DLC possibly blasting away at the Right wing Neo Con Repugs, 3 years of Dean hammering away with some of Bush's evils coming to light might be the groundwork for a wild swing into the other direction.

THAT isn't the problem though, it is the votes and how they are cast and who is counting them. We got Fucked by THAT twice now. How many more times before we get it? Jesus wouldn't win if people are messing with the votes.

Obviously Kerry had a close called race....if you believe the numbers. I don't. I have talked to too many people to believe that Kerry wasn't pulling in a lot more votes than were admitted to. There were so many Repubs that voted for Bush that were really pissed at him for Iraq AND most if not all of the Dems that I knew were pissed at Bush for stealing 2000. I think the numbers were really played with in a bigger way then is being talked about.

Voter fraud is a definet, until we get organized and fix it we are fucked be it Dennis, Kerry, Edwards, Clark.... Although, I think Clark and Kucinich wouldn't have folded like Kerry folded.

[mermaid]

15. Agreed

I didn't want Kerry, either.

I thought I was VERY CLEAR on that point last year. That my vote would be a vote AGAINST BUSH...and NOT "FOR KERRY."

That changed only when Edwards got the VP nod.

THEN, my vote was FOR EDWARDS...and I'll hold my nose and ignore who's at the top of the ticket.

I voted Edwards in the Texas Primary in 2004. This was long after it was clear that Kerry was going to be the nominee. I STILL voted Edwards.

In fact, Kerry officially became the nominee just before the Texas Primary, but we allow early voting. And my vote for Edwards was cast one day before Edwards bowed out of the race.

[benburch]

40. So, you bring nothing whatsoever to the table.

And yes, I know both elections were frauds. This was only possible because they were so damned close.

If we run another DLC "Republican Lite" again, we might as well stay home from the polls. We might just eke out another 2% plurality. and if so we lose in exactly the same fashion as the last two times.

An operational definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results next time.

Does it just make you feel good to slander a Kucinich candidacy? Thats all I can imagine.

[mermaid]

42. No

It makes me feel good to avoid losing in a fucking LANDSLIDE, okay???

It is to be hoped that, by 2008, paper trails will be MANDATORY, and cheating ala 2000 and 2004 will not be able to be done, and then our guy will WIN...as he would've without the 2000 and 2004 cheating.

[benburch]

50. If you think we'll have clean elections in 06, 08, 10, 12, or ever...

You're dreaming.

The GOP know they can steal elections that are as close as recent ones have been for as long as they like.

Our only chance is to offer a candidate who can break the pattern of close elections, and I firmly believe Dennis Kucinich is such a candidate.

Now, it is still up to you to give me the facts that support you claim that he would lose by a huge margin. Can you?

[mermaid]

55. I Have Given You The Facts Several Times - You Refuse To Accept Them

Top Ten reasons Why Dennis Can't win:

10. Dennis managed only one percent in last year's primary

9. Dennis is way too far left to attacrt ANY swing voters

8. Dennis managed only one percent in last year's primary

7. "Kucinich" is just too hard to pronounce. We Americans like Presidents with simple names like Bush, Clin-ton, Bush, Ray-gun, Car-ter, Ford, Nixon, John-son, Ken-ne-dy...ok, ok...you get one point with Ei-sen-how-er. That's a fucked-up mame...but even so, he went with IKE.

6. Dennis managed only one percent in last year's primary

5. Lack of name recognition. Outside of his own Congressional District, who out there in Joe six-Pack America has even HEARD of Dennis?

4. Dennis managed only one percent in last year's primary.

3. Dennis will have a seriously hard time raising cash, unless he violates his own principles...and without cash, you cannot win.

2. Dennis managed only one percent in last year's primary.

And the number one reason Dennis can't win.....


Have I mentioned Dennis managed only one percent in last year's primary?!?!?

[Mairead]

59. "Dennis managed only one percent in last year's primary?!"

Which of course had nothing to do with ABB or Media Inc. Just as Nader's loss in numbers had nothing to do with the fearmongering of ABB.

[mermaid]

61. Spray Your Excuses For Dennis As You Will, You Still Can't Negate The Fact

that Dennis only managed one percent in last year's primary.

What makes you think with that albatross hanging about his neck, that he could WIN in '08?

[benburch]

74. Man, I cannot argue with you as you will not even check your facts.

When you can be rational about this, we can play this game again.

[mermaid]

77. What's "Rational??" When I Agree With You?? Is That How YOU Define

"rational?"

[no name no slogan]

63. Better go check the historical record

Dennis Kucinich did better than one percent in the primaries. In fact, he beat Edwards in Washington, Maine and Hawaii. He also had strong double-digit showings in other states, too, including Oregon, Minnesota and Colorado.

Check your facts before you assume anything.

[cidliz2004]

9. Other than Dennis not being able to be a viable candidate in 08'

what is it that you need?

With an attractive electable candidate we lose because the voting is screwed up because we Dems don't know how to watch our voters and get our votes counted.

If you cannot stop them with Gore or Kerry, Dennis won't light a candle.

We need a Gore or a Kerry or some other ELECTABLE candidate that won't FOLD (like Kerry did) as soon as the election booths close and the Democrats need to be able to count the votes and to protect their constituents so that they can vote. THAT SHOULD BE THE PLAN Voting Reform.

Looking for the opposite candidate because Kerry or Gore didn't pull out a victory is useless, it wasn't so much the candidate as it was the "process".

[tinanator]

8. Thats right

Joe Lieberman 2008
never too soon to plan ahead.

[mermaid]

11. Lieberman Polled Only Slightly Better Than Kucinich In Last Primaries

Try again.
Thanks for playing.

[tinanator]

13. I aint playin

and if I was it wouldnt be your game.
You have a choice, Dennis or Joe.
Why do I think I know your preference?

[mermaid]

16. You DON'T Know My Preference

Because NEITHER one stands a chance in hell.

On a political/issues point...I'd take Kucinich over Joe in a fucking heartbeat.

But, in the REAL WORLD...neither guy stands a fucking chance.

so you can stop making assumptions about me, right now!

[tinanator]

24. only one assuming is you

Your real name is either Karnak or Nostradamus I take it?
None of these 2008 Presidential threads is any more useful than
used toilet paper. Its not only wickedly premature, completely
blind to future events and loaded with preconceptions dependant entirely on the poster or perceiver, its a distraction from dealing with current events, and thats the only thing it really is.
Well its also an opportunity for people to flaunt their dislikes and attack the character of good people like Kucinich.
Poor taste and poor judgement.

[mermaid]

35. You Aren't Making Assumptions??

With a post like this??

"Why do I think I know your preference?"

Tell me you aren't making assumptions!!

[mermaid]

32. You Wanna Play That Game?? Fine...Here's YOUR Choice...

A fucking Republican President

OR

Any democrat other than Dennis.

I think I know YOUR choice, too.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[d_b]

14. Zell/Joe for '08

I've already accepted it.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[d_b]

28. Wow.

I'm hardcore for Dennis? Holy shit, thanks for lettin' me know!

[blm]

54. NO Dem will win with the GOP controlling 90% of the broadcast media.

Go ahead and run FourStarGeneralJesusChrist and see what a GOP controlled media turns him into, ben.

You'd have ads featuring a battalion of generals claiming they saw Jesus Christ fellate Bin Laden while Hussein jerked off nearby.

And then the media would give those generals hundreds of hours of airtime to repeat the story over the months before the election.

Dealing with the GOP control of the broadcast media MUST be a priority for Dems BEFORE the next election.

[Wilms]

3. He's a referrence point.

A lot would have to be different for him to have a chance, but I voted for him with pleasure in the primary.

The support he got, I hoped, sends a message.

[tinanator]

10. He got more support than was ever tallied

those ballot boxes are amazing things. So are these posts.
Talk about inappropriate and unfounded. Logic plays no part in these attacks.

[Wilms]

21. I feel mixed about it.

A lot of the arguments at DU lack the logic that the debate ( if you can call it that) in the general public does. At it's emotional core, for many, the presidential race is like a grammer school popularity contest.

It both bums and informs me.

[Crunchy Frog]

17. I don't understand what the point of this thread is.

It seems to have no purpose other than to antagonize.:shrug:

[cidliz2004]

19. Your 4 stars are my 4 stars

If only!

[Crunchy Frog]

25. Your welcome to take them,

if you want them for your sig line.

[cidliz2004]

26. I'm a dunce with this computer stuff

I don't know how to monkey with my signature line. I have a couple of pics of .....me and the General - actually me trying to get to the General would be more accurate and I'd like to use them but don't know how, so I stay plain.

I do love what those 4 stars represent though.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. I am too,

but it's really easy to put a picture in your signature line. You just type the URL in for them. If you wanted to put your pictures in, you would have to get them on a server first, but that's really easy, you just get a Photobucket account.

I can walk you through it if you ever want any help. I could even put the pictures on by Photobucket account and let you link to them, if you wanted to email them too me.

I'm jealous that you got pics of you with the General. I was going to try and get at least one when he was out here, but never had the opportunity.

[mermaid]

20. If It Is To Antagonize, Then THEY Started It

by posting another thread in which five choices were listed for the ticket...and ALL FIVE had Dennis on the top of the ticket.

It pisses me off, because I am convinced these Kucinich supporters would rather LOSE than have anyone other than Dennis.

And I can't fucking understand that.

GODDAMN IT I WANT TO WIN!!!!

And Dennis is NOT the guy who can win.

[cidliz2004]

22. Relax, there aren't enough Dennis supporters

to really make a difference. It like getting wigged out because Nader is running or some other Independent.

As long as this party is so diverse, there will always be dissenters.

You liked Edwards, I loved Clark WE voted for Kerry, some may have chose not to, more voted for Kerry than not though, and many of those votes didn't get counted, THAT is what lost the race. Focus on the real problem, not the imagined ones.

[cidliz2004]

29. Just so you know Dennis is my #2 or #3 most fav. cand.

I liked Clark, Dean, Kucinich all basically, out of the box

[mermaid]

30. I Can't Relax

These Dennis supporters are the ones who will go Green on our ass, and leave us with a fucking Puke President in '08 again.

I swear, these Dennis people are...well, "if-you-won't-play-my-way-I'll-take-my-ball-and-go-home!"

And these people truly would rather a PUKE in office than ANY Dem other than Dennis, I truly believe that.

They would be a stick in our spokes.

I am TERRIFIED of another Repuke victory in '08...and these guys might just hand it to them.

The Dennis people scare the fuck outta me.

[MuseRider]

33. Boo! n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

36. Your description bears absoluteley no resemblence

to the Dennis supporters that I met. I hung around with them alot while I was supporting Dennis after Clark dropped out. I can tell you that the ones I met were overwhelmingly supportive of the Democratic ticket, and worked their asses off to try to get Kerry elected in Colorado. They may not have been thrilled with the ticket, but they were almost all loyal Democrats and team players.

And if they scare the fuck out of you, then you must scare easily because they were just about the nicest people that I've ever met.

Just to reiterate, they worked their asses off for the Democratic ticket.

I don't know what positive things you think you will accomplish by trying to antagonize them.

[mermaid]

43. And Every Dennis Person Here...TO A MAN...Threatened To Go Green

if Dennis wasn't the man.

[MuseRider]

46. That is NOT the truth

no more from the Kucinich camp than could be found in any other. Dennis is not going Green and if some of his supporters do then that is their decision. I have been involved with them for quite a while now and have never heard any official or group think kind of suggestion to go Green. This is nonsense, you need to worry about your enemies not your friends and Dennis Kucinich is your friend and one hell of a good Democrat.

[mermaid]

48. I'm Not Worried About Dennis...

I'm worried about his supporters GOING GREEN ON OUR ASS, and causing us to lose another election to the Repukes, and eight more years of HELL!!!

goddam, I just want the nightmare to be over already, okay??

Haven't I suffered enough??

Christ, I'm already gonna have to admit I'm a great big loser at life, and go back home to Mommy at the age of 34 because of this rotten economy....ain't that ENOUGH already??

WTF did I ever do to deserve this??

Please...Jesus Christ...let's send a candidate who will fucking WIN!!!

I wish it could be Dennis. But he just can't win.

Christ, this nightmare has to end, and soon...or I might do something drastic. I can't take eight more years of being economically deprived!!

[Crunchy Frog]

51. Oh, that is absolute bull and you know it.

:eyes:

[mermaid]

57. No, It's Not. I Have A Rather Long Memory

And I had some bitter fights with some Dennis supporters last time out who threatened to go Green.

And I remember begging and pleading with them not to...telling them I didn't like Kerry, either, but I hated Bush even more. and that was BEFORE Edwards got the VP slot.

[no name no slogan]

67. BULL FREAKIN' SH!T

I joined this party in 1988 because of Paul Wellstone, and I originally left it in 1994 because of Bill Clitnon.

I rejoined the Democrats/DFL in 2004 (after voting Green since 1996) BECAUSE of Dennis Kucinich. He was the only Democrat who had served in political office who was NOT AFRAID to speak out for true single-payer universal health care, a people-based economy, workers rights, and the right to be free from violence as inalienable right. NOBODY else did that.

The more you spout, the more ridiculous you seem.

[vision]

68. Every single ones to the man?

IS that true? Can you point out where I threatened to go Green if Dennis was not made the point man? I would be more likely to go Green if the Dems do not fight, not because of a single man. DK is great and speaks for the things I do but I have been a Dem for about 20 years, most of that time in Repub Kansas or rural Repub Missouri. If I have not giving up in those circumstances I don't see giving up now.

[gottaB]

38. Others feel as profoundly as you do about Hillary Clinton supporters

To name just one for instance.

"Hidden harmony is better than apparent harmony."

[arcane1]

39. I voted for DK in the primary, voted for Kerry in the election

as did many of my friends, none of whom match your description :eyes:

[Crunchy Frog]

23. They started it!?!?

What, are we in nursery school now?

Why don't you retaliate by starting a poll with all five choices having Edwards at the top of the ticket, rather than starting a thread attacking Dennis? And it wasn't "they" who ran that poll, it was one single kucinich supporter.

[mermaid]

34. And I'm NOT Attacking Dennis

I've already said...on a political/issues front...I LIKE DENNIS!!

He's more in agreement with me on issues than just about ANYONE.

But I live in the REAL WORLD.

And I know that, in the real world, Dennis can't win.

He would turn off the swing vote we need to take us over the top. He's too radical.

I like Dennis. But he can't win and it is just that simple.

[Crunchy Frog]

37. Realistically, how likely do you think it is

that he would even get the nomination. As far as I know, he's not even interested in running again. I think all this hysteria about the extremely unlikely possibility of a Kucinich nomination is really kinda unnecessary.

[Mairead]

60. There are ways to win, if winning is all you care about

[tinanator]

27. never too soon to stir up division

good a time as any, after all there are some mighty hot fish to fry.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. If we want to run an ass-kicking liberal who unfortunately can't win,

take Al Sharpton.

he was much more impressive during the primaries, in my mind, than Kucinich.

[mermaid]

44. I Totally Agree

Sharpton kicked some serious ass. but he, too, can't win. too radical, too checkered a past. No chance in hell. But it's a shame, because Sharpton would kick some ass for us!

I'll admit to having bias against Sharpton at first. That was before I saw him speak at the Convention. Basically, before then, I'd allowed the media to tell me what I needed to know about Sharpton, and I had the idea Sharpton was something of a reverse racist...that he had such crackpot ideas that I, as a white person, should have to like, just GIVE my car to a black person, just because he was black and I was white...to make up for slavery.

And I'm thinking, HOLY SHIT...this guy wants to take away my wheels, and give them to a black man...because of slavery? He wants ME to pay for something I never did, and had no control over...he wants me to pay for something my ancestors did....and the beneficiary of this payment would be someone who was never in fact even a slave?? what the fuck is THIS horseshit?!!??

I mean, I'm a poor-ass myself...and this guy wants to make me ever POORER...to the benefit of someone who didn't suffer slavery....and all because of something I didn't do, and couldn't have stopped, since I hadn't even been around??

Holy shit, that was enough to turn me off Sharpton, real fast.

And apparently, he really DID feel that way, and publicly stated so, 15 years ago. It's now a part of his baggage.

I believe he still favors "reparations" which I don't understand...after all, no one is left alive who is a slave...or who owned a slave. So why can't we let it go? I think things like Affirmative Action and such forth are more than adequate re-payment....after all, the idea is to make up for the lack of opportunity the blacks had, in terms of education, etc for the slavery era.

The idea is to level the playing field, right? Well, I'm all in favor of that...but NOT at the expense of impoverishing myself! I'm barely making it as it is right now...in fact, a couple of months hence, I will be moving back home to Mommy, in Pennsylvania, at the age of 34...a complete and total loser at life, because this rotten economy will not produce for me a job that will enable me to sustain myself.

So, if ya wanna talk reparations, go get the money from someone who has something more than pocket lint in their pockets, okay? You do not make up for past injustices by creating new injustices. And to come after ME for "reparations" would be to create a new injustice. That would be punishing me for something I did not do.

And that is my one and only remaining beef with Al Sharpton....he still supports reparations. So, what does it cost ME?? And why the fuck should it cost me, I damn well didn't do anything wrong!!??

Anyway, this is going on too long, and I almost think the subject I'm brining up here, re:Sharpton, deserves it's own thread to be hashed out.

[deutsey]

45. "Sometimes a noble failure serves the world

as faithfully as a distinguished success." Edward Dowd

I want to win too, but sometimes when we lose fighting for what we believe in, it means more than if we win by forfeiting our core beliefs.

That said, I was not in DK's camp during the last campaign (I was an organizer in the Dean campaign), but I'm thankful he ran and I appreciate all those who worked for him.

[mermaid]

47. We've Had EIGHT YEARS Of "Noble Failures" TIME FOR A FUCKING WIN!!!

n/t

[deutsey]

52. I wouldn't call them noble, if you ask me

Gore's concession maybe approached something resembling nobility, but he and the Democrats caved after putting up a fight that was neither strong, intelligent, nor all that principled.

Kerry? I voted for him, but I'd hardly call his campaign a noble failure. It was just a failure, plain and simple.

My point was that Kucinich went down fighting for the principles and values we on the left always play lipservice to, but few of us really, genuinely fight for them, especially when (oh boo hoo) it looks like we aren't going to win.

I'll take Kucinich's failure any day over the failures of Democrats who lose or win because they jump on the ME TOO bandwagon driven by the Republicans.

[mermaid]

58. Well I WON'T Take Dennis's Failure Over Any Other Democrat's Success!!

I can't take eight more years of Republican rule! Do you want me to STARVE?!!??

[deutsey]

66. With me it depends on how the Democrat succeeds

If he or she is more or less indistinguishable from Republicans on major issues, then what are we winning? Gain the world but lose your soul, and all that.

I was encouraged to hear about the Democrats last year that won despite the fact they vocally opposed the Patriot Act, the invasion of Iraq, Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy, etc. While I'm glad other Dems retained their seats, I have to wonder at what cost to my interests (i.e., working class interests) these people won.

Personally, I think we're heading back to the time when it's up to groups outside the two-party system to fight the good fight. The labor movement, for example, did not start out as something initiated by the Democratic Party. The grassroots fight the unions led between the Civil War and the early part of the 20th century ended up having a big influence on FDR, the Democrats, and the New Deal in the '30s.

Finally, I find it hard to have eight more years of Corporatist rule from either party.

[benburch]

75. Your DLC "Republican Lite" candidates will NEVER win.

And you are selling out your part to insist that they will.

[LittleClarkie]

79. First of all, I deplore labeling candidates you don't like as DLC

Second, John Kerry was progressive in most of his votes, quite liberal according to several reports the Repubs used to beat us over the head. So I dispute that he was hardcore DLC Repub-lite. His hawkish stance is the one factor that lines him up with the DLC.

I don't even think he was the "DLC" candidate. That could have been Clark, though there is dispute there too. None of the candidates struck me as being that centrist really.

Third of all, in recent memory, the DLC candidate DID win. Twice. So how you can say they will never win, I don't understand, when they're the only one who have won lately.

Fourth, God love him, with Dennis we would have seen another McGovern. Great guys, though.

Fifth, he had his chance in this primary season and once folks got down to Braun and Kusinich, they had the devil's own time trying to remember their names.

[tinanator]

49. why hasnt this useless ugly thread been locked?

just wondering

[IrateCitizen]

53. I'm terrified... I'm scared... I want to scapegoat others...

That's all I hear from the OP on this thread.

Do I think Kucinich could win in 2008? No, but not for the incorrect reasons you cite. His policy positions actually have much broader appeal than you think. I've even known RWers who have honestly said they'd consider voting for him. In fact, I think his policy positions have much broader appeal than those advanced by the likes of Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and yes, John Kerry. Furthermore, Dennis comes off as someone who stands for what he believes rather than sticking his finger in the wind before every decision, and people often will support candidates of passion even if they disagree with them on some things.

The biggest problem Kucinich faces is that we live in an era in which politicians are marketed on the national stage like brands of soap. Policy positions rarely enter into consideration for most folks. It's all about political ads on TV and radio.

How do you go about changing this dynamic? By creating a broad-based political movement that especially brings in people of color as not only constituencies, but as a major guiding force within the movement itself. A good example of this would be the Rainbow Coalition prior to 1989. Jesse Jackson was a candidate who came FROM the movement, not one who CREATED it himself. Ironically, the Rainbow fell apart in 1989 when Jackson tried to make it his own personal political machine, and loyalty to the cause became confused with loyalty to Jackson himself.

But most of all, I wonder along with many others why the OP even started this thread in the first place. All I can see is an expression of deep-seated fear that prevents thoughtful analysis, and a desire to scapegoat others for these fears.

[no name no slogan]

71. Great analogy w/ the Rainbow Coalition

I was involved with my state's rainbow coalition and Paul Wellstone's first US Senate campaign in 1990. I saw a LOT of resemblence between the Rainbow and Kucinich movement in 2004.

And like the Rainbow, former Kucinich people are standing together, even after the election. This time, however, it's not candidate-focused, and is truly a grassroots bottom-up movement. There is no "figurehead" or "leader". Just people coming together to change the direction of politics.

I've seen this first-hand in Minnesota, and it's a marvelous thing. We have a whole new DFL group (the DFL Progressive Caucus) that has united progressive activists from not only the 2004 campaigns, but from other issue-oriented groups as well. We have our people in positions of power within the party, and have activists who are reaching out to traditionally disenfranchised groups within the state, too. In fact, one of our own is running for the associate chair position in the state party this spring.

Dennis Kucinich has inspired us, and we've taken the initiative upon ourselves. THAT's what empowerment is all about-- doing things for yourself.

[mermaid]

78. I Agree With the Grass-Roots Thing...BUT

We can't have the grass-roots going off on a third-party tangent. That ensures a Republican victory.

We have to unite behind a guy who can beat the Pukes. alas, in our two party system, that menas only a Democrat stands a chance of beating a Repuke.

no matter how much we may wish it otherwise, that is the truth.

[Padraig18]

56. *sigh*

Why must we have these threads?

:argh:

[sendero]

62. Forget policies...

.... for a minute. That is not what would prevent DK from winning.

Call it charisma, call it dynamism, call it what ever you want - all presidents have it and DK doesn't.

He doesn't have the ability to stand in front of a camera and look presidential - and without that nobody gets elected in America.

IMHO. And BTW - I like his positions on the issues almost 100%.

[tinanator]

65. and GW does

lets put an end to that lie right here. the whole notion is based on a bigotry Americans should be, and by and large are above. If any posters are still hooked up to their TV and taking it seriously, they cannot be.

[sendero]

69. Yes...

.. GW does. You may not like his "style" but it clearly connects with a lot of people.

Elections are won and lost on TV, you don't have to like it, but you might as well accept it because there isn't jack shit you can do about it.

[blm]

64. Dennis' voice is a great part of the debate. There's absolutely NO NEED to

silence ANY voice at this point and especially the voices of his supporters who are some of the best human activists on the planet.

You should study DK a bit more. He's not nearly as far left as the media makes him out to be. Lifetime records show Kerry with a slightly more liberal rating than Kucinich.

[goodhue]

70. I disagree.

Dennis could win if he had the support of the party.
It's a shame so many in the party treat him as roadkill.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. OK! OK! I'll settle for Boxer. With Dennis for VP.

Satisfied?

[goodhue]

73. Is Kucinich Electable?

Is Kucinich Electable?

If any Democrat has a history of attracting swing voters and "Reagan Democrats" in winning elections against better-funded Republican opponents, it is Dennis Kucinich. He has repeatedly defeated entrenched incumbents. He beat a Republican incumbent for mayor in 1977, for state senator in 1994 (overcoming the national right-wing tide) and for Congress in 1996.

His Congressional district includes the suburb of Parma, Ohio, described as "one of the original homes of the Reagan Democrats." An Ohio daily calls it a "conservative Democratic district," which he carried by 74% in 2002. Being a success there may be a better predictor of national success than holding statewide office in a liberal stronghold like Vermont or Massachusetts.

Kucinich is a winner because he builds Wellstone-like grassroots campaigns against bigger-spending opponents. He is a winner because of his blue collar roots and populism, reflected in his battles for heartland voters against unfair, corporate-friendly trade deals.

He is an unabashed progressive who wins because swing voters who don't agree with him on every issue still see him as a fighter for their interests, as someone who will put the interests of workers and middle-class consumers ahead of big-money interests. No Democrat is better positioned in 2004 to attract 'Reagan Democrats' and swing voters with a frontal attack on how Bush policies hurt them and favor the rich.

Republicans use "wedge" issues to pry away traditionally-Democratic white working class voters -- a tactic that has not succeeded against Kucinich. In '96, for example, Republicans used his support of gay rights as a wedge, and he stood firm and triumphed.

On the other side of the spectrum, no other candidate can attract disaffected voters, 3rd party voters and Ralph Nader supporters to the Democratic column like Kucinich. Across the country, Nader 2000 voters and Green Party sympathizers are joining his campaign, as are other 3rd party supporters.

It's been a long while since progressives and the Democratic base have been so motivated, and so angry -- over manipulation and deceit that began in the 2000 election and continued through the Iraq war (now finally catching up with the Bush team). No candidate can better tap into and mobilize the anger of the Democratic base than Kucinich, who has never wavered in his opposition, who has courageously led the way in exposing war manipulation, and who speaks with passion to the big issues that animate Democratic and progressive activists.

Kucinich has been a winner in a swing district in the swing state of Ohio. And Ohio has 20 electoral votes. It is the state that is key to national victory; only two candidates in the 20th century won the presidency without carrying Ohio.

Al Gore lost Ohio in 2000 despite the Herculean efforts of Kucinich, as vividly described by journalist James Ridgeway in an article written days before the election: "Kucinich is a shoo-in, but hauling Gore along will be a daunting task. Shuttling back and forth from Washington, Kucinich has put together an old-fashioned canvassing operation throughout Cleveland and its suburbs that is one of the largest such efforts in the nation. By election day, 400 to 500 people will be on the streets...

"Day after day, members of the laborers, electricians, plumbers, and steelworkers unions crowd into Kucinich's tiny office on Lorain Avenue, piling signs into the backs of cars and pickups before hitting the neighborhoods. The general approach is for volunteers to use Kucinich's name to get a foot in the door, then ask for support for a Democratic judge before uttering the vice president's name."

Kucinich's best efforts couldn't win Ohio for Gore in 2000, but Kucinich can win Ohio himself if he is the 2004 Democratic presidential candidate. And in presidential politics, as Bush-strategist Karl Rove knows well: As Ohio goes, so goes the nation.

http://www.kucinich.us/electable.htm

[Moderator]

80. Locking.

This thread is unnecessarily inflammatory.