Before the other-than-Dean supporters burst from glee, remember

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

your guy could be next (if he poses any real threat--politcally or financially). Will your candidate be up to the assault? This media-poltical machine has real teeth. Can your candidate fight? Does your candidate's narrative have an inherent defense mechanism?

From Gene Lyons' blog: http://seetheforest.blogspot.com/2004_01_01_seetheforest_archive.html#107470319791328923

"This is not just an accidental, glib, throw-away wingnut hit piece. This is part of a coordinated, researched, tested, professional character assassination campaign that will phase in and ramp up between now and the election. This is the modern Republican Party. This is Norquist's Wednesday Meeting, and Karl Rove and the Wurlitzer, and cigarette company marketing people, and former CIA destabilization specialists all working together to do their job ON YOU! This is George Bush 'staying above the fray' while his subordinates engage in the nastiest kind of character assassination and voter manipulation -- spreading lying, humiliating, ridiculing smear after lying, humiliating, ridiculing smear until even YOU hate Dean!"
It seems that we're nearly there already. People are disappointed in Dean. OK, and I'll get into that later. But think about this -- if the nominee is Kerry, or Clark, or Edwards, it's going to be the same story. They are going to find the weakness, and pound on it, and repeat their smears over and over, and, as I wrote previously, "engage in the nastiest kind of character assassination and voter manipulation -- spreading lying, humiliating, ridiculing smear after lying, humiliating, ridiculing smear" until even YOU hate your nominee. BE READY FOR IT."

[jpgray]

1. I'm not at all gleeful about it (nt)

[WilliamPitt]

2. Could be next? Will be next. Bank it.

[Wetzelbill]

5. I was just about to say that

Dean's got some cash too. He can fight back. He's not going away. Never underestimate the power of the almighty dollar and since Dean has that money he's going to put it to good use restoring his image and stopping the bleeding.

I wonder about temperment. Edwards for example is pretty laidback. Can he push when he gets shoved? Will he? Just not sure right now.

[bearfartinthewoods]

11. did you see his NH townhall?

if cspan reruns it, watch it. your question will be answered. watch his eyes when he talks about how he dreams of taking on bush.

come to think of it, there was a townhall in NH last summer...an unbearablely hot night and some pubbie plant tried to trick him up.
i wish you could see that too. Edwards is no pussycat.

[SangamonTaylor]

13. he faced the Helms political (smear) machine in NC and won.

He faced challenges his whole life (going against the best defense lawyers money could buy, people like Jim Blount and Bob Clay, who are excellent, well respected, fine lawyers) where the defense would try to smear what he was saying.

He faced the same smears when the Republicans attempted to cast him as a 'dirty trial lawyer'. It backfired, he jumped 10 percent in a few weeks and won in a squeaker.

The smears just bounces right off of him.

[Wetzelbill]

16. alright, good stuff

I'd love to see Edwards do his thing in that case.

[diamondsoul]

18. ROTFL My friend-

he was a trial attorney against major corporations! Trust me, he can push back, and harder than most would ever guess!

Of course he's laid back....now. He doen't need to push yet. When he does, you'll know and you'll probably be surprised if you're taken in by the laid back lazy, hazy Edwards. That's his non-combatant persona, the regular guy he is in every day life. Put him against Bush and it's back to the court-room and the viciousness that goes with it.

[cally]

33. Have you listened to Edwards?

He has perfected the lethal putdown cloaked in Southern charm. I have no doubt that Edwards fights dirty and wins. It just comes across as a nice guy comment.

Clark almost does the same thing. He is lethal but makes it obvious when he is really annoyed. I think that helps deter future attacks. Both are great at countering the attacks.

[Ninga]

3. Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love Dean.....if he can't stand the heat, he will get booted out of the kitchen.

I think he will still be standing a month from now.

[LuminousX]

4. Dean Supporters deserve to be chastized for pointing this out

Again, we are just supposed to take our lumps, thank our brethren for our 'correction', and ask for more. Fighting back against the obvious RW smear jobs that have been picked up by our brethern to beat on us is a sin too great to be forgiven.

I doubt I'm the only one who is finding this treatment by fellow Democrats nauseating.

[Cuban_Liberal]

6. You're not the only one, not at all.

I find it pretty disgusting, too. :hi:

[Monument]

7. Republicans WANT Dean, why would they try to remove him <eom>

Dean supporters need to accept that Dean screwed up and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their candidate's actions.

Blame blame blame. C'mon.

Dean was the bane of all other Dems in the fall for getting SO much free, positive media coverage.

[Capn Sunshine]

12. How does the "republicans want Dean meme square with

the 45% of Iowa turnout that registered Dem at the door ?
Wouldn't Dean have won if they "wanted him"?

How about New Hampshire?

Just curious about the anonomalies associated with this particular meme.

[RetroLounge]

31. Wow, low post count and you re-hash old memes

Welcome to DU.

You'll fit in fine...

[BearFlagDemocrat]

17. You're not the only one...

And it's going to turn a lot of people off voting for X candidate when the time comes.

[cthrumatrix]

8. They just want the "toughest" candidate early --- which is Dean

[blm]

32. yeah...that's because they WANT Kerry who has all their BCCI information

to use against them.

Geez. Open some eyes around here. The media USED Dean to mute the candidate they really needed off the national stage before the BCCI trials started up again.

[blm]

9. Where have you been for the last 30 years?

Kerry has been tailed and dogged by planted stories in the press since the Nixon White House. Scaife did an Arkansas Project on him long before most knew about Scaife. The press ramped up against Kerry during his BCCI and IranContra investigations.

Puhleeze don't pretend he has escaped media derision. He has SURVIVED and grown stronger.

[FreeperSlayer]

10. The only glee will result from....

...BUSH OUT!!!!

He's gotta go. Period.

[diamondsoul]

14. I'm going to say something because it needs to be said-

First off, I've been defending Dean all over the place between Sharpton's blow at the last debate and now this stupidity over his Iowa speech.

BUT, yes there is a part of me that is glad some Dean supporters are getting a dose of their own medicine. How many months now have some of us put up with supposed Dean supporters coming to positive threads just to call the candidate of topic a loser, warmonger, or something equally hateful, just for kicks?

How long have we dealt with being called jealous, essentially stupid and listened to the "sour grapes" nonsense whenever we don't like something about the Great Howard Dean? How long have we dealt with watching many of you thumb your noses at us repeatedly because you insist your guy is the only one with the money, prestige and support to beat Bush?

I've defended Dean because it's the right thing to do under the circumstances, but now I need to say this-

Howard Dean is not the be-all end-all of the Democratic Party! There now stand 6 other candidates who are just as amazing as the Good Governor, who have positives he doesn't and who have negatives he doesn't. Yes, Dean supporters, when you climb up on that high horse and try to stay there forever, sooner or later you're going to get a nose-bleed. The air is thin up there, don'tchaknow, and it makes it hard to think straight.

Some people, from all camps, remind me of the High School bullies who just couldn't get enough of beating on the geeks. They always fall hard when one of the geeks finally has had enough.

Pump that Screamin' Dean slogan, turn this thing around for your man, and stop stomping on the hopes, hearts and sincere support of other people just because it isn't for your chosen guy. I'm sick of being the ant that gets stomped because by Golly nobody who doesn't support the Great Howard Dean can ever be allowed to be happy with their choice. Knock it off already.

[blm]

19. I concur.

.

[emulatorloo]

20. Thank you, well put

They are all fine democrats.

[sandnsea]

21. Agreed n/t

[diamondsoul]

22. Thanks to those who have agreed-

I kind of feel like I ought to put out there that this isn't all Dean supporters by any stretch. I've had some fantastic dealings with the DFA board members, with Dean supporters coming to encourage Kucinich folks at our volunteer board, and with people right here at DU who support Dean.

The ones that post was aimed at know who they are as evidenced by their silence, I think. Maybe something finally clicked, but I ain't terribly hopeful.*sigh* We need to help each other, and I'm SOOOO tired of fighting with people I'm supposed to agree with.

[mikehiggins]

15. without being offensive

let me lay something out for you.

One of the weaknesses of Dean's strength was that he drew in and relied upon a large number of newcomers to politics (people who never voted, etc.,etc., yadda, yadda, yadda). He has an unparalleled ground campaign of energetic volunteers that is the envy of all the other candidates.

However, the vast majority of them (even the old ones) have their own ideas about how politics works and how campaigns are run. Thus, when something like Iowa happens it becomes a terrible blow and the cause of much soul-searching and analysis. The professional looks at the campaign, tears it apart, does his best to figure out what went wrong and fix it, and then heads for the next battle. The average amateur enthusiastic grassroots volunteer personifies the defeat and tries to locate the villain, like this was a tv soap opera. The fact is that the best candidates stumble, and sometimes fall, all on their own. They misjudge the will of the people (which is why we see such blind worship of "polls"), events overtake them (like the Saddam farce), they get too cocky (like Gary Hart) or any number of other reasons.

What the volunteers have to do now is STFU and let the people around Dean figure out what went wrong and try to figure out what to do about it. Lay low, mind your p's and q's and stop trying to justify what needs no justification. Dean presented his case over the course of many months to people who were paying attention. They preferred the other guys. That's how it works in politics. Trying to make a case that there were conspiracies involved, or everybody was ganging up on your candidate, is spurious at best, ludicrous at the worse.

If you have such faith in Dean and Trippi, show it.

You guys still have a real good shot; you got the energy, you got the money and you got a whole bunch of primaries galloping down on you. I don't think Kerry is going to go very far at all. I don't think Edwards has the personality to carry the day. In the end it'll all come down to two candidates, as it should.

It'll be Dean vs Clark and Doc? We can't wait. Ahem. YEEEEHAA!

[diamondsoul]

23. Kicking because some people

either don't read anything they don't agree with or can't take a hint.*sigh* I really am tired of fighting.

[diamondsoul]

24. fresh kick. n/t

[Cuban_Liberal]

25. "We're supposed to be better than that."

Just read it, and I agree.

[robsul82]

26. Some other poster had it perfectly nailed...

...by equating what was going on to that poem about Nazi Germany and not speaking up, the one that's like "they came for the gypsies, and I said nothing, for I was not a gypsy," and turned it into "they came for Dean, and I said nothing, for I was not for Dean," "...for Kerry," etc. But instead of "and then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me," this one will end, "and then they came for our nominee, and Bush was back in the White House." We all gotta be careful.

Later.

RJS

[Cuban_Liberal]

29. That's why i'm speaking up.

Sen. edwards could be next, and it would be no more fair to do it to him than it has been to do it to Dr. Dean.

[joefree1]

27. And you might want our support later

[diamondsoul]

28. But that goes both ways, doesn't it?

What if Dean is the pick and some have infuriated other candidates supporters until they can't even stand the thought of voting for Dean?

I hate to say we're "shallow" but man outrage, and especially undeserved outrage, can do that to people. Spite is an ugly thing, but so is bullying and maliciousness in the midst of a battle for America.

[edzontar]

30. I can (finally) tell you this---I never went after another candidate

Until mine--Dean--was trashed seventeen times an hour by supporters of one of the others--most notably the fans of a relative latecomer to the the race, some of whom promoted, with profound dishonesty and malicious intent, enlistment in a so-called "Stop Dean Movement."

I have been equally amazed, however, by the rancid negativity of posts against Dean coming from some Kucinich supporters.

I would have expected a kind of natural alliance between our camps--I know that very many Dean people have a warm spot in their hearts for Dennis K--but some of the most vituperous negativity hurled at Dean on DU has come from folks brandishing the Dennis avatar.

Sour grapes, I suppose, but pretty discouraging.... if i may say so....

[diamondsoul]

34. I think another goes both ways-

and please know this is not a personal accusation at you.

You're very likely right and I'm not noticing it because from my perspective it's reaction rather than insitigation. I admit my bias and wouldn't dare assume I'm always right in my observations.

My honest opinion? I think most Dean supporters are good people who see a leader we've all been wanting in Howard Dean. That's cool. What's not cool is to call Kucinich a loser, an ugly little vanity candidate, an fringe candidate or any of the other themes I've seen and most seem- do note SEEM- to come from Dean supporters, at least on DU. That bothers me.

Do I like Dean? No. That's me and so what? Would I pick him to lead the country? No, and again, so what? What makes ME and MY candidate so horrid that we have to take abuse from people supposedly on our side?

I defend Dean and will keep right the hell on defending him when he's wrongly attacked. When will Kucinich get the same from MOST Dean supporters instead of just a handful?