Democrats and the South

[rockymountaindem]

We were talking about this in an earlier thread and I thought it was very interesting. However, that thread has kind of died off. So, I would like to explore these ideas here in a new thread. Thank you for your interest in my last thread, that was the most response I've ever gotten so far.


So the impression I get is that the Democrats need to have a candidate that plays well in the South. That's ok with me to an extent, but I think that if we play into that mentality too much we'll become bound by the south. If the criteria for all our future Presidential candidates is that they be southern, that's not good either. I think we need to prove to the southerners that northerners and westerners can understand their views as well. People speak about how bad it would be to write off the south, but it would be equally bad or worse to let the south dictate the direction of our whole party. To follow this logic to its conclusion, we would have to disregard all the great Dem. politicians from the north, west and and midwest. That's not a plan either.


Furthermore, people fear that Rove will paint Kerry as a New England elitist. First of all, wouldn't he then try to portray Dean the same way, and more importantly... WHAT IS ROVE AND WHERE IS HE FROM???

Exactly, he's an elitist from Massachusetts. Hopefully Kerry or Dean would call him out on that hypocrisy.

Lastly, it seems to me that some people are only looking at this one way, i.e. that the Democrats need to shift our message to appeal in the south, not that the southerners should take a second look at our ideas as they stand now. People are concerned that if we abandon the south, we will become a "regional" party. However, if we allow the south to influence our message all over the country, then aren't we a regional party either way?

[gWbush is Mabus]

1. Aren't the Bushes from Connecticut?

My favorite line is.

"Just because he (Bush) talks like you doesn't mean that he is on your side"

[mmonk]

2. Dems are toast in the south

with either a bush-lite foreign policy (they'll choose the real thing) or no southerner on the ticket. Must talk about job loss as well.

[Sandpiper]

3. The party should spend most of its energy

Campaigning in southern states that they have a chance of winning. Whoever the dem candidate is, they should concentrate on states like Louisiana, Arkansas, West Virginia, and Florida (which isn't really a totally southern state culturally).

First things first, we need to win where we can win, and once we've secured those places, we can focus our attention on the other southern states.

[spooky3]

35. West Virginia is not in the South.

[leyton]

51. Not geographically.

But I think culturally and politically, it fits the South more than it does the rust belt or teh mid-atlantic.

[Dhalgren]

4. I'm probably going to catch a lot of flak over this, but

I think the nation's Progressives should simply write-off the south. I am from the south, born and raised, as they say, and I can tell you from bitter experience that the south, as a whole, is a lost cause. I think that the Democratic party should formulate it's messege and doctrines based upon the true feelings and beliefs of its constituents and if the south, as a region can't handle it - good riddance. There will always be southerners who are progressive and liberal and they will remain in the party that reflects their views the best, but we cannot allow the backwardness and anti-democratic leanings of the majority of the south to dictate any stance the party might take. IMO (well, maybe not too humble).

[mmonk]

9. Thank you

and many western states as well?

[Touchdown]

73. Dems can capture western states with the environment.

Westerners want to preserve the natural beauty of what it once was. Forests, mountains, deserts, it doesn't matter. The gun totin', libertarian "Don't tread on me" cliche is a dying breed over here, and there have always been the John Denver types that still live here.

All they have to do is pay us a visit once in a while. They don't because the Southerners are too co-dependant that they need the constant Dem stroking, which leaves very little time for anywhere else. When's the last time any Dem money has gone to Colorado? Could that be one of the reasons why the Repugs have a stranglehold on the state?

Montana is a heavy union state, Colorado is getting more populous (and poluted) by the year, Arizona (already populous and poluted) is ready to take, Nevada and it's Yucca Mountain is ready to fall all over us, New Mexico is ours to lose...so what do we have left? The mormon states of Utah and Idaho, and the insignificant, 3 Electoral Vote Wyoming.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

16. There are only FOUR southern states that we can win:

Louisiana, Arkansas, Florida, and Virginia, that's all.


Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennesee, and Kentucky are to backwards, AS A WHOLE, to be competitive for the Democratic Party.

:dem:

[Buffler]

19. Backwards

This north carolinian appreciates being called backwards.

And NC is so backwards that the democratic party has owned this state for the better part of 140 years.

Same with Georgia and other states you listed.

I don't know where you live, but if I did I wouldn't take to insulting it. Though I am sure there is a lot of stuff to find for that purpose.

[Sandpiper]

30. In state politics

The dems do well in North Carolina. In national politics, they are solidly republican. And yes, I know John Edwards is from NC. I also know that NC hasn't gone for a democratic presidential candidate since 1976.

[Buffler]

50. Look at Mass

Every congressperson is a dem. The state legislature is dominated by dems, yet they continually elect GOP governors!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

81. Our Governors have been pro-choice and pro-gun control

You can't get elected with a typical Repuke agenda in Mass. Romney is the first moderate conservative elected to the Governorship. Every other governor has been a Liberal Republican.

And thankfully, our state house and senate are dominated by Dems and they constantly veto anything Romney tries to push through. Tom Finneran-Speaker of the House-is the most powerful political figure in Mass.

And I'm damn proud to have Ted Kennedy as my Senator! :-)

[Forkboy]

86. You shouldn't use Mass politics as an anology to anything ever

it's a world unto itself here :)

[Anaxamander]

29. Bullshit.

Clinton carried Georgia in 1992.

[carolinayellowdog]

36. TN is as competitive as VA

and NC, TN and GA are generally less "backwards" than LA or AR in quality of life. It's not "backwardness" that makes a state less competitive-- VA ranks 10th in per capita income and WV is 50th but it's a lot more competitive for Dems.

[mohc]

41. You're nuts

In the midst of the craziness of the 2002 election, while Democrats were taking a beating across the country, here in Tennessee we elected a Democratic governor. He was from the north, and was mayor of Nashville, and so was framed as a yankee liberal. Yet he won. There were some factors that contributed to his victory, like the very unfavorable Republican governor that was being replaced, and the whacko conservative the Republicans ran to replace him, but in this "backwards" state they chose the Democrat. In the deep south (LA, MS, AL, GA, SC, NC, and northern FL), the high black population means that when we GOTV in urban areas and rural black areas, we can win (although that is very tough in MS and SC).

We do not have to win the south, but we have to be competitive. Being competitive means Bush has to throw his resources there. If we abandon the south, Bush will just use fundraiser appearances to campaign in the south, and will concentrate all his real efforts in the small amount of states needed outside of the south and west he needs to win. It would put the Democrats in an almost impossible position where they have to win virtually every battleground state while Bush only needs one or two.

[spooky3]

59. good points

[mmonk]

46. backwards like New Hampshire?

[leyton]

61. Nah, not any backwardness.

It may be more the attitude that many non-Southerners have towards the region. Notice how badly the GOP treats the Northeast, and notice which way the Northeast always swings.

You can say, "Well, the cities may be progressive the but the rural areas aren't," but I think that would be incorrect. The South might be somewhat more conservative, but Howard Dean was right when he implied that Southerners have the same concerns as the rest of the nation: jobs, security, backwards things like that.

The only differences worth mentioning might be religion. I think the south is religiously more conservative than other areas. But as one who takes religion seriously, one who lives in the buckle of the Bible belt, and as one who doesn't think it should be completely excluded from government, I say, don't fault us for it. Come learn about it first, okay?

[Disandra]

62. Backwards?

I invite you to come down to Atlanta.

This is the problem that some in the DNC just don't get. They label us "backwards" so don't even bother to campaign down here. Many Liberals are ticked off by this attitude, and stay home on election day.

Clinton made an effort in 1992, and won our state.

[Disandra]

60. Maybe not....

Just a thought, and stay with me. :-)

We had a huge anti-Bush rally here when Dubya came to lay a wreath at MLK's grave (in Atlanta).

On Monday, the red-neck a--holes were at the capitol yelling for their racist flag back.

The difference: many more showed up to protest Dubya (and most of those people were living in the South) than those who showed up at the capitol in support of the a--holes. In fact, many showed up to protest the protest.

The problem, as I see it, is that no Democratic party candidate in the last election even bothered to come down. I've heard (more than once) when it comes to the Democrats: "If they don't care about us, why should I vote for them?" These people stay home on election day. If the DNC were serious about wanting the south (and we are not all banjo playing rednecks), they should make an effort to come on down, I would offer any Dem candidate a nice tall glass of sweetened ice tea (and I am a rabid only Dean candidate) and I'm not the only one.

[denverbill]

5. I think this issue deserves discussion.

If I say the Democrats should abandon the South, southern Democrats get angry. But when southern Democrats tell me that only a southerner can win in the south, that's bigotry to me.

The only thing I ever hear from southern Democrats as to why they won't vote for a northerner seems to be that it's because they are too liberal. Well, frankly, I think Democrats lost the last election because they couldn't carry states where they needed to be MORE liberal. By trying to cater to the conservative south, an area dominated by conservatives, we lose the places we SHOULD win.

[rockymountaindem]

6. That's exactly what I mean

That's the double standard I'm talking about. Write off the south = angry southern Dems. Nominate northern candidate = angry southern dems. I believe one of the things that gets people on the top 10 conservative idiots list is pandering, and I'm tired of pandering to people who don't seem to want to hear us anyway.

[Sandpiper]

11. The problem with a lot of southern dems is

That the dem party just isn't republican enough. Just ask Zell Miller.

[Dhalgren]

14. You are right!

The Democratic Party should write-off the South until the South deigns to join the 21st century. If Southerners will not vote for someone not from their region - then to hell with them! I'm sorry, but I think that one of the big problems with this party is that it tries too hard to placate the South. If the South wants a conservative, let them vote Puke!

[Buffler]

22. If the south is so horrible

backwards, and living in the past century, why do you damn yankees keep moving here!?!?!

[Sandpiper]

25. Retirees move there for two reasons

Mild winters and cheap real estate.

If you're a non retiree, the two drawbacks to the south are, worst wages in the country and worst public education in the country.

[Buffler]

31. The vast majority of those

moving south are NOT retirees. Sorry to burst your bubble.

And if I wanted to move somewhere for cheap real estate, I would move to upstate NY and other various northern locations.

[Sandpiper]

43. Like I said

I only lived in western North Carolina for 11 years, where we had a flock of northern retirees that would come during the summer and nearly triple the population of my town, before heading back down to Florida for the winter.

Maybe I just imagined that though.

And maybe I just imagined all those years of people complaining about Yankee "Floridiots" clogging up traffic.

[Buffler]

45. The south consists

of far more than Western NC.

Come over this way to the Triangle. Tens of thousands of yankees a year moving here who are not retirees.

[Sandpiper]

49. The south consists

Of far more than the Triangle too. I've been to the triangle. It's hot, flat, and boring. Unless you consider Raleigh and Durham to be exciting cities.

[Buffler]

58. I consider

Apex NC to be a wonderful place to live, work, and have a family. I can engage in all of my hobbies either right here or in a short drive. I can hit my place at the beach in just over 2 hours, I can golf in Pinehurst and Southern Pines in an hour (and am surrounded by great courses just a few minutes away). I can go boating with my friends on their boats at several lakes. Hunting and fishing abounds.

If I wanted too I could head out to the mountains, but one visit to Asheville and being bored out of my skull for 3 days has cured me of any interest in visiting that portion of the state

[Sandpiper]

65. I'm glad you do

I no longer live in North Carolina.

But as far as things to do go,

Hunting and Fishing? Are you kidding me? Are there many good trout streams in the triangle? There were plenty in Pisgah national forest.

Two National Forests

Lakes: plenty

Golf: courses by Tom Fazio

Mountains & Snow Skiing. Not much of that in Apex, is there?

[Buffler]

69. well

Hunting and Fishing? Are you kidding me? Are there many good trout streams in the triangle? There were plenty in Pisgah national forest.

Deer abound in my back yard and I need venture no more than 100 feet to my tree stand. I don't fish for trout. Just not my fish.

Golf: courses by Tom Fazio

How much golf going on right now? I have tee times here Saturday.

Mountains & Snow Skiing. Not much of that in Apex, is there?

Well, if you are not a snow skier, as I am not, then availability of such is of no concern.

[Sandpiper]

76. Coudn't tell ya

How much golf going on right now? I have tee times here Saturday.

For two reasons. One, I don't live there anymore, and two, I was never a golfer so I couldn't tell you even if I did.

As far as golf goes though, Tom Fazio lived in my town, and there were five golf courses there.

[Sandpiper]

83. Don't get me wrong

I think North Carolina, in general, is a fine place to live. It's geography is diverse and beautiful, and the people are generally friendly.

I came to California because I needed a change of scenery. I'm really an urbanite at heart, but I always found the cities in NC to be awfully vanilla. Anyway, I found new home in San Diego, and now I'm only 10 minutes from the beach. nyah nyah ;-)

[Buffler]

85. SD Beach

is the water warm enough to go in?

[Sandpiper]

90. Depends

In the winter, no, unless you're a surfer. In the summer, the water temperature is usually in the low 70's.

[Buffler]

92. My aunt and uncle

live in Palo Alto and once when I visted them we went to Santa Cruz and the water was way to cold to even think about going in. And this was in the summer! Of course, that is way up north in the state from you.

Is the Meusem of Death still open in SD? A friend of mine went to SD and I told him to get me something from there. He couldnt find it.

[Sandpiper]

94. In Northern California

The water is always cold. It stays about 50-60 degrees year round. The water's a lot warmer in SoCal during the summer.

Don't know about the museum of death.

[Dhalgren]

44. You see, it's this kind of rabid response that makes people

wonder about the region as a whole. When I say that Alabama is backward, I am not being slanderous, I am telling the truth. We are talking, here, about whether or not the Democratic party should expend time and money to try and win in the south or just write the region off and use the money and time to better purpose. The south is not going to "go Democratic" anytime soon. It should be a write-off until the people start to vote for their own best interests.

[Sandpiper]

57. Truth is not always kind

But it's still the truth. It's not like you have to reach back to the days of George Wallace for proof that Alabama is backward. I mean, just look at former chief justice Roy Moore, the loon that wanted to turn the state supreme court into a religious shrine.

[Buffler]

66. Speaking of backward

coming from a state that elected Arnold Governor, you have a lot of balls commenting on who other states vote for.

[Sandpiper]

70. Owww That hurt

coming from a state that elected Arnold Governor, you have a lot of balls commenting on who other states vote for.

But, it could be worse. At least our Democratic Senators aren't actively campaigning for George W. Bush's reelection. Unlike a certain southern democrat that I won't name

*cough*

Zell Miller

*cough*

[Disandra]

79. Yeah...

but you will also notice that the traitor is not running for his own seat. He knows that if he did, he would loose in a heartbeat.

In fact, I signed a petition just yesterday over at Underground Atlanta demanding that Zell Miller stop calling himself a Democrat and that the DLC endorse our position.

[Buffler]

80. Well, my democratic

Senator is running against Bush!

[Sandpiper]

87. So who is

Contesting Edwards senate seat? I heard Erskine Bowles is giving it another try. Who are the wingnuts running?

[Buffler]

89. Richard Burr

current GOP House member is running for it. Being that I am not paying any attention to the race as there really is no need to I am not sure if he has a primary challenger. The one poll I did see on the race recently had Beaker (Erskine) with a small lead over Burr.

[Carolina]

104. also CA

gave us red ink Reagan and master Trickster Dick Nixon!

[Sandpiper]

106. And North and South Carolina gave us

Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond. And Alabama gave us George Wallace. So what's your point?

[Disandra]

63. Grin...

...sometimes I think that I am the only native in Atlanta, pratically everyone that I know is from NYC, Denver, Boston, etc. etc. :-)

Not that I don't mind, or anything.... ;-)

[Buffler]

64. Are they all retirees

or a vast majority of them retirees as sandpiper says they are?

[Sandpiper]

67. I guess it depends on where you live

But the sunbelt states have had a big influx of retirees who made their fortunes elsewhere.

[Buffler]

72. And a big influx

of people looking to make their fortune here.

[Sandpiper]

78. In the urban areas

Yes. Manufacturing in the rural south has been devestated in recent years by layoffs, and the textile industry is a shell of what it once was.

[Disandra]

68. Nope..they are around my age (27). n/t

[Carolina]

103. excellent point

I must admit that I'm a transplant because of husband and have often felt like a fish out of water politically. But in the 10 years I have been in SC, I have been astounded at the growth in my area due to Yankee migration.

Could that also mean a potential shift politically? Don't write off the south, folks.

[mmonk]

56. Here are some more states

not in the 21st century-Mo., Ind., Ohio, New Hampshire, Nebraska, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota. There are more that voted republican as well, should I go on? Or are we going to scapegoat the south? You can win the south by giving them the issues. It would be best in this election to make as wide spread an effort for votes as possible if you could put a southerner, or westerner on the ticket as well. But if you give them a reason to vote, they will. Be arrogant and condescending like some of you and there is probably about as much chance as a snowball's chance in hades. Believe it or not some of us are human beings.

[dolstein]

15. Newsflash: Bill Clinton won in the "conservative" South

All this talk about how right-wing the South is -- that's total bullshit. Yes, the region hates northern liberals. But guess what? So does much of the rest of the country. It's not as if the South was the only region that rejected McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis.

[Dhalgren]

20. If you think that there is not widespread and deeply

held antipathy for Northerners-in-general in the South, then you are either not from here or havn't live here very long. There is a deep-seeded hatred for northerners in the south that is tought and inculcated from birth. I'm sure that many southerners do not actively try and teach this to their children, but many do. I this is at least part of why the south is a write-off.

[Syrinx]

23. funny, I don't see southern DU'ers continuously bashing the north

But I see plenty of South-bashing threads everyday.

[Dhalgren]

37. I agree that there is a lot of negativity

regarding the South, but a lot of it is deserved. I'm sure that if you were to go to a conservative board there would be less "south bashing" and more "northeastern liberal" bashing. As long as the south, as a region, persists in being backward-looking and backward-thinking, the progressives of this country are going to keep it at arms length. There are plenty of southerners who are progressive and foreward thinking, but they are in the voting minority and will be for some time to come. We, as a people, have been kept barefoot and ignorant and as long as we accept those conditions we will stay that way.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

91. That isn't true-I see plenty of use of the phrases 'elitist' and

'northeast liberal'. But if I used the terms 'white trash' and 'redneck' (which I don't, BTW), I would be assailed as anti-Southern.

So it's OK to bash Bostonians, New Yorkers, rural New Englanders and everyone North of Philadelphia. There is a double-standard here at DU-and I think it is reflective of the entire country.

[Sandpiper]

24. I lived in the south for 11 years

But was not a native born southerner, so I can attest to what you say. A lot of native southerner have a deep mistrust of outsiders, and even if you were to live there for 30 years, if you weren't born there, they'll never consider you one of their own.

[Disandra]

82. May I ask where you lived?

I've lived in and around Atlanta--including the more "rural" areas, and while I do admit that there are a minority who feel like those you described above, I don't see this as the dominant opinion of those of us who were born and raised here.

BTW--I formerly invite any Northern/Western/Wherever Else DUer to come on down and I'll show you the real New South. I'll even buy the beers.

:toast:

[Sandpiper]

95. Hendersonville, NC

Asheville, NC was the nearest city. I won't say major city cause Asheville's definitely not major.

[Disandra]

96. Well, that explains it.

;-)

[dolstein]

38. I'm from Virginia

I was born there. I grew up there. I don't drive a pick-up truck. I don't own a gun. I don't have a confederate flag plastered to my living room wall. Virginia has elected progressive Democrats like Chuck Robb and Douglas Wilders to statewide office.

Please name a single Northern state that has elected an African American as governor. Just one. . . . . Still waiting . . .

I certainly wasn't raised to hate northernors. And you still seem to ignore the fact that Democrats who have done well in the South have generally done well elsewhere, whereas Democrats who have fared poorly in the South have generally fared poorly elsewhere.

[denverbill]

52. Baloney.

Humphrey was JUST as liberal as McGovern, and he would've handily beaten Nixon in 68 if the racists hadn't bailed out of the Democratic party and voted for Wallace.

That same batch of racists then voted for Nixon over McGovern, giving him his 'landslide'.

[democratreformed]

7. You make the most sense out of all the posts I have seen on the "South"

I like this part:
"I think we need to prove to the southerners that northerners and westerners can understand their views as well."

I agree that one region should not either be able to dictate the party or be disregarded. But, yes, we do need a candidate who understands that there may be some different issues down south.

[dolstein]

8. A Democrat who can win in the South can win elsewhere

People around here forget that. Clinton did well in the South, but he also did well in the Northeast, the Midwest and the West. Al Gore did a lot better in the South than many around here give him credit for. If Nader hadn't forced him to devote time and resources to nailing down states like Oregon, Minnesota and Wisconsin, he'd have won Florida, and possibly Tennessee, Arkansas and Missouri. No Northern Democrat could have done that.

The simple fact, painful though it may be to many DU'ers, is that Edwards or Clark could win the same states that Kerry and Dean could, plus a few more down South. And since the election could come down to just a handful of states, that makes all the difference in the world.

[Sandpiper]

12. Missouri is not a southern state

[dolstein]

17. Yes it is, and so is Ohio, and parts of Pennsylvania

There's a lot of the South in the North. More than many DU'ers are willing to admit.

[Sandpiper]

21. Well

If you're talking about near the Arkansas state line, yeah, I suppose. But most of the people in Missouri live near St. Louis and Kansas City and do not culturally identify with the south. Missouri is a midwestern state.

[spooky3]

33. OH and PA are not southern geographically or culturally.

OH people consider themselves midwesterners and many in PA do also. Think Big Ten Athletic Conference--that is the way people think about it. Eastern PA people may think of themselves more as East Coast. But maybe I could better understand if you would define what you mean by "south".

[dolstein]

39. I'm talking culturally

And there are large portions of Ohio and Pennsylvania that are culturally similar to the South.

[spooky3]

40. in what ways?

[Buffler]

42. Opening Day

Opening Day of hunting season as a holiday for parts of PA is one example.

[spooky3]

48. examples to the contrary

in OH--I'll let someone more familiar with PA speak up on that one.

--strong commitment to public higher education--very midwestern, in contrast to east coast and to the south. Lots of highly regarded public universities in OH. Decent education K-12.
--votes like the other (Big Ten) midwestern states in most elections, not like the south. Indiana is the outlier, not OH.
--jobs have been lost to the south and west. Rust belt awareness.
--NOT a right to work state. Labor has traditionally been organized.
Declining in numbers as everywhere else, but stronger there than in the south, by far.
--tourism is not a significant business. Weather, which affects people greatly, is very northern. The state borders Canada (opposite the Lake).
--civil rights tradition re: African Americans is Northern, not Southern.

As for the hunters--I don't know of a holiday for hunters in OH. You have hunters primarily living in rural areas in OH, but you have them in New York, New Hampshire, Vermont, Virginia, Utah, Idaho, etc. Are the per capita #s high there?

[Touchdown]

88. Ah', but the other meme is that Senators always lose elections too...

Which leaves one...a Governor...from a North Eastern state.

To paraphrase another silly justification...no General has won a Presidential election since 1956.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

10. "Elitist"=Republican Codeword for Northeastern Urban Liberal

Why do Democrats constantly use this divisive term?

Face it, we have lost the South and should be concentrating on bringing in the Midwestern states. Until the South gets over its animosity toward the North, the Dems don't have a chance in hell.

[AndyTiedye]

27. We Might Get a Majority of the Voters in a few Southern States

But the Republicans will "win" them anyway.

Georgia is all-Diebold, so are some other states.
the BFEE owns Florida and Texas,
The fundies own the Bible Belt.

What is left for us?

[WI_DEM]

13. the south, the south, the south...

Isn't anybody else tired of the Democrats having to alter their message just to pick up a southern state or two?

[dolstein]

18. "Just to pick up a southern state or two"

Oh may God, I can't believe what I'm reading. The fact is, the election of 2004 could very well come down to a southern state or two. Personally, I want a candidate who can beat Bush, and that means we have to be able to win a few red states. Edwards and Clark are good Democrats. This is an easy choice for me. I just don't see what it is you think we'd be giving up by nominating Edwards or Clark.

[Kolesar]

26. Between the two gentlemen they have won all of *one* election

I think John Edwards is the coolest, but the opposition is going to attack him as inexperienced.

I suppose that some southerners might get choked up and bleary eyed for the four star general who is from the south (AR), but he is even more inexperienced.

[WI_DEM]

32. first I don't write off any part of the country

but this constant talk about the south as if no other part of the country is important. That we have to moderate our candidates so they can win in Dixie is tiresome. I think we can pick up a couple of Southern states but I think we can pick up more out west: Arizona, Nevada, Colorado for instance or in Missouri and Ohio in the middlewest.

[QC]

101. If we had "just picked up a Southern state or two" in 2000,

George Bush would be living quietly on his pig farm right now.

[Eumenides]

28. White Flight

The Weekly Planet has an interesting cover story about this. http://www.weeklyplanet.com/cover.html

<snip>
So why is Sparks a Bush man? He makes half a case for morals -- the abortion thing -- before conceding, "even that has its gray areas."

There is also a careful, understated racism that mimics talk radio's complaints about the misdirection of tax dollars on misguided affirmative action. He lets out his beleaguered taxpayer. "They's always someone on the side that's going to get their pockets lined. They's always a minority group or whatever that deserves this other chance," Sparks says. "It's supposed to be the government of the people, for the people and by the people. But it's gotten to the point now where you've got four or five people that raise their voice. Everybody else is, I reckon, busy making a living, and they listen to the four or five."

<snip>
"They're either alienated, or they don't see that their interests are advanced or that they have any real motivation to take part," Black says. That might sound like a promising voting bloc for Democrats, but Black says the lack of unions in the South makes it difficult to organize working-class Southerners into a group that would work together for their own economic and political interests.

<snip>
"You wouldn't believe the jobs we've lost in this area. And now, this wasn't a great place to come to work to start with," Sparks says. "But these companies that keep farming it out overseas ... where's your kids going to work one of these days?"

If progressive politicians want to break the GOP death grip among rural whites, Sparks' question is one they need to answer.

[mikehiggins]

34. You have a point Rocky but I think you don't "grok" the stakes here

We have to win this election. If we lose the Presidency and the Senate then the next five SCOTUS appointments will be Pickering clones. The draft will come back, Social Security will be destroyed, all our jobs will be outsourced to India and the American citizen will be reduced to being a beggar in his own country.

Not to mention the wars Bush will start with Cuba, Syria and Libya to begin with, the resumption of nuclear weaponry, the institution of virtual slavery with the Bush "guest slave" program with Mexico, and all sorts of other stuff.

There is no need to worry about being a marginalised party in the future by making a desperate stab at the South this time. If we lose this time out, we lose for good.

Now, I know that sounds like hyperbole but there are over 500 dead american soldiers and 3000 WTC workers who paid for our not listening in 2000, not to mention untold thousands of Iraqi's and Afghani's.

We will have little difficulty winning the Gore states in 2004 but we have to win more, and we have to do our damndest to keep the Senate in some sort of check. We are in a world changing period right now and are in the same position as the Germans who opposed the rise of fascism and nazism. Except we have one last chance.

Clark is our best chance for taking the south so I'm for Clark.

Not hard to figure out, right?

[carolinayellowdog]

47. The Mountain West states are way more R than the South

so it's particularly irritating to see the stereotyping of the South coming from *that* particular part of the country. What states gave * the biggest margins? Utah and Idaho. Someone posted a list of the margins of victory for Bush and Gore in each state, and while MS AL and TX were nearly as solidly R as places like UT, ID, KS, NB, ND, SD, MT, OK, AK, several Southern states were *very close*-- TN and AR especially. (RI was Gore's strongest win.) We keep making the same points and you keep ignoring us. Write off the South and you write off 50% of African-Americans and over 50% of African-American office holders. Plus a very substantial Congressional Dem contingent. The South influences *both* parties' messages precisely because it cannot be taken for granted by either party, unlike the Great Plains/Mountain West or New England and the West Coast.

[spooky3]

53. good points

[Anaxamander]

55. Exactly...

Why does no one talk about abandoning the West?

Excluding the Pacific coast states and New Mexico, Bush won every goddamn western state from top to fucking bottom. Idaho, Utah, Montana, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, North & South Dakota, Nebraska...

[Touchdown]

97. Dems have already have abandoned the West.

Gore barely visited, and the Dems spent virtually no money in the west, and we won New Mexico, and almost took Az in spite of all that. Why? Because they couldn't hear us, through all the shouting for support (and shitloads of money) that was coming from the South.

[QC]

102. BINGO! As I said in another thread yesterday on this tired subject,

The tone of most of the discussion in these "write off the South" threads, with the references to hillbillies and rednecks and all that, leads me to believe that the real motive behind much of the discussion has little to do with election strategy and much to do with animosity toward the South and Southerners.

[phillybri]

54. Bush won ONE northeastern state, are the Repubs a regional party???

I'm sick of this North/South bullshit...

[mmonk]

71. For those of you who think writing off the south is smart

with all those electoral votes, you have no business talking about the south not being very smart or intelligent.

[leyton]

74. Perhaps Democrats could stop crying, "Texas Diplomacy."

That's just one example... but it sends the message, and not very subtly, that Democrats have no respect for Southern ideas on foreign policy. It suggests that Bush's reckless failed diplomacy can be written off as a product of his years as a Texan. It may appeal to many Democrats, but I'll bet it turns off voters in Texas and other southern states alike. It ticks me off at tiems, because I think foreign policy should be bold and not timid, and on the whole, I think many swing voters in the south would prefer a bold foreign policy.

When Democratic pundits link together Bush and Texas and the South and give the whole thing a negative connotation, they do a lot of damage.

[ieoeja]

75. Republicans in the North

Given that the Great Lakes and Northeast combine for more than the South, why do we never hear anything about the Republican need to win in those locations yet have to put up with this constant mantra about the South?

Did you know that every state won by Gore was won by Clinton twice? This means that each of those states went to the Democratic candidate in three straight presidential elections.

So either Bush must win every single state he won last time, or a state that has voted Democrat three straight times must vote Republican this year.

The Southern Strategy has backed Republicans into a southern corner. Republicans in Washington have been repeatedly quoted as saying Arizona is their make-or-break state.

[He loved Big Brother]

77. It's up to the South to overcome their problematic bias

The rest of the country is willing to vote for someone who is not like themselves. The candidate's religion, race, where they grew up, etc is not as much of a factor to voters in other regions. In the South, they are, which should be corrected because none of those things have any bearing on a good candidate's ability to do the job. And, surprise surprise, the south is not doing so well. Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, they are always near the bottom of the lists in areas like funding for education and health care, and they are also poorer as a whole. Still, the South seems to only be open to voting for presidential candidates from the South. At their own expense too. What has Bush done for them?

Other regions of the country are not to steadfastly prejudiced against a candidate based on small factors such as where they grew up and what religion they practice. These prejudices are wrong and unfair, and it isn't our job to cater to unfairness. It's our job to educate, point out that Armageddon certainly won't happen if a candidate from New England is elected president. Southern states vote red for a shitty candidate just because that candidate is telling them lies in a southern accent while wearing cowboy boots. "He must be one of us!"

The majority of the rest of the country, in my opinion, doesn't seem to vote with such discrimination. The South has a cookie-cutter mold of what the President of the United States has be, and they vote with the fear that someone who doesn't fit that mold may win. We need to stop being so scared of the South. They are in the wrong and they are hurting themselves (and the rest of us) when their states go red. Their collective fear and mistrust of casting a vote for any candidate who isn't white, Southern, and Christian is seriously errant and harmful to all of us, since they are dismissing viable candidates based on them being from "other" places. This prejudice should be corrected, not catered to.

[carolinayellowdog]

93. Problematic bias doesn't stop at the Potomac

Hey,

Your stereotyping is about as accurate as stereotyping normally is. To wit:

1. The rest of the country is willing to vote for someone who is not like themselves.

The way you state that, all non-Southerners are free of this curse, and all Southerners have it. That's preposterous. Southern Democrats are loyal to their party, as are Southern Republicans. Each gets about 40% of the vote normally in most Southern states. It's independent swing voters in the South who are susceptible to regional loyalties. Why? Probably because they suspect non-Southerners of looking down on them. Where would such a notion come from?

2.) The candidate's religion, race, where they grew up, etc is not as much of a factor to voters in other regions.

That's why the only African American governor elected in the 20th century was... uh oh.

3.) In the South, they are, which should be corrected because none of those things have any bearing on a good candidate's ability to do the job. And, surprise surprise, the south is not doing so well.

Mississippi and Alabama have more African American elected officials than the whole rest of the country put together.

4.) Still, the South seems to only be open to voting for presidential candidates from the South.

Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Dole, the Bushes, all non-Southerners and all did fairly well in the South. (Even if you insist on counting Texans as Southerners the point stands.) The South doesn't vote; individual Southerners do. Your point would be fair if it were stated as "swing voters in the South seem to only be open to voting for Democrats in presidential elections if they are from the South."

5.) The South has a cookie-cutter mold of what the President of the United States has be, and they vote with the fear that someone who doesn't fit that mold may win. We need to stop being so scared of the South. They are in the wrong and they are hurting themselves (and the rest of us)

You have just insulted every liberal Democrat in the South with all those unqualified "they"s-- and every African American in the South too.


6.) Their collective fear and mistrust of casting a vote for any candidate who isn't white, Southern, and Christian is seriously errant and harmful to all of us, since they are dismissing viable candidates based on them being from "other" places. This prejudice should be corrected, not catered to.

Your prejudice, making insulting moral denunciations of a huge category of people and blanket excuses for another, should be corrected, not catered to. So I tried.

[ieoeja]

98. Whose stereotyping?

HeLovedBigBrother's response is based on a premise established by RockyMountainDem in the post that began this thread: that we must nominate a southerner to win in the south.

If that is true, then HeLovedBigBrother's statements logically follow. If that is not true, then you should be blasting RockyMountainDem (and all the other southerners who make the same claim at DU).

I see this happen so often here:

Southerner #1: we should vote for a southerner like Clark or Edward to stand a chance at winning a southern state.

Northerner: if southerner's won't vote for anyone outside the south then screw them. They are a bunch of backward, bigoted, so-and-so's.

Southerner #2: why do the northerners always denigrate the south.


ieoeja was raised on a farm in southern Indiana 8 miles from the nearest town. His family got electricity the year before he was born and running water the year after. He spent his freshman year in college in Naval ROTC (Marine option) at Auburn, AL where he was badly mistreated for being a damn Yankee. He spent the next three years closer to home at Indiana University where, if he did not recognize a colloquialism it was because ieoeja was a "stupid hillbilly" and if the others did not recognize his colloquialism it was because ieoeja was a "stupid hillbilly". After college and a few months in Indy, he moved to the suburbs of Chicago where he encountered much the same attitude he encountered at IU. After a couple years he moved into Chicago proper where he discovered nobody gave a rat's ass what he looked, sounded or acted like which has always led him to wonder: how have Republicans managed to create a coalition of suburbanites and rural folk when the two would absolutely hate one another if you ever got them together?

[He loved Big Brother]

100. I tried to word it as best I could by regarding the "collective" South

*not* stereotyping individual Southerners, (I'm a liberal, remember? ;)), just writing my point of view based on the voting history of the South going red. I stand by my post.

[mrgorth]

84. We can't play to the south

Even if our ticket was Clark/Edwards we wouldn't win any of the confed. states. Bush has a stranglehold on this area. We're better off trying to get the midwest and southwest.

[ulysses]

99. how about we stop accepting their definition of the south

and triangulate in our own way. Love, hate or indifferent towards Dean, if you want to make southern inroads, it's gotta be economic.

[Demo Gog]

105. In future elections..

I believe we need to concede the south, and start focusing on a region of the country that the GOP has taken for granted: the west. This has to be a gradual process, though. I still think we should try to pick off a few southern states this year and in 2008. But gradually, we should look at the Dakota's, Montana, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona and maybe even Wyoming and Oklahoma, to join the pacific coast and New Mexico as a new regional constituency of our party. The Democratic Party of today seems to be trying to focus on being more "moderate" by being fiscally conservative, but retaining the same socially liberal values that they've had the last few decades. This tactic will play much better in the libertarian west than in the "traditional morals" south.