Is there a non-DLC option w/o Dean?

[mrgorth]

OK, I think Dean will recover but for sake of arguement let's say he crashes. I can't vote for a 100% pro-war ticket so Lieberman and Gep are out. I'm only a little more comfy with Kerry/Edwards. Then I start thinking about having to vote for Fromm's crowd, the people that decided that Dean, not Bush, was the enemy. To my knowledge there's Kucinich and Clark, but Clark is a Clinton guy. Is the General DLC? Is he stealth DLC? I want to be ABB but I am going to have issues voting for the people that are skewering my man.

Thanks.

[cprise]

1. Excellent question

I can only recall what Clark said, that he couldn't understand why he would want to distance himself from Clinton's economic policies in any way.

Dean used to be part of the DLC crowd. When someone like Dean turns their back on the DLC, that makes him all the more dangerous to them.

[poopyjr]

3. Why the hell would ANYONE want to disassociate themselves from WJC?

He is one of the most popular presidents we've ever had.

[TLM]

8. Even Clinton has turned his bak on the current DLC...

yet Kerry, Lieberman, and Edwards are all current DLC members.

[poopyjr]

9. I hope you put your hatred aside for all candidates not-Dean during

the GE.

[TLM]

23. My dislike for these candidates is not because they are not Dean.

Rather my like for Dean is because of the fact he's not them.

Dean is the only candidate who represents a change, a real change in who holds the power in this country... a small group of elite DC insiders or the people of the united states.

[cprise]

28. Clinton was a neo-liberal

Just look at his accomplishments. He even created the media environment that persecuted him and which we deal with today.

Oh, and the talk about healthcare... was a charade.

[HereSince1628]

33. Do you think NAFTA is working?

Ten years of trade deficits, devastation of the manufacturing capacity of the US, and off-shoring of all possible jobs for the promise of a post-industrial future for the investor class?

Sorry Clinton's sell out to the corporations and his support of international economic agreements set up the country for profiteering by corporations and the largest disparity in wealth between the "investor class" and the working class since before the French Revolution.

[blm]

2. Dean is the furthest right of all the candidates.

Dean PULLED the Dem party and the DLC to the right while liberals like Kerry were pulling leftward.

I don't want a compromising career centrist like Dean as the nominee. No Bushlite, electricity deregulating, corporatist like Dean.

[TLM]

5. So I guess you won't be voting for corporatist Kerry..

Funny how Kerry's DLC said Dean was a fringe leftist, oh but that was when Kerry was going for the anti-UN hawk image... now the meme is that Dean is too conservative and too angry, while Kerry is the real liberal despite voting for the war, the no child left behind act, the patriot act, etc.

Can Kerry's people keep ANY story straight for more than a week?


Here is the money behind the new top dog in the Democratic dog pound, John Kerry's Top Ten Career Patrons calculated by the Center for Public Integrity, Washington.

1. Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and Popeo PC, Boston $223,046

2. Fleet Boston Financial Corp., Boston $172,387

3. AOL Time Warner Inc., New York $134,960

4. Hale and Dorr LLP, Boston $123,258

5. Hill, Holiday, Connors, Cosmopulos Inc., Boston $119,300

6. Harvard University $108,700

7. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP, NY $105,150

8. Robins, Kaplan, Miller & Ciresi LLP, Minneapolis $103,450

9. Goldman Sachs Group Inc., NY $100,000

10. Piper Rudnick, Baltimore $92,300

*Sen. John Kerry also created a soft money committee (Citizen Soldier Fund), which raised approximately $1.35 million in unregulated donations and spent $147,000 in Iowa during the last two years. "The real powers that be in this country are not on any ballot. And they are accountable to no one. The bottom line is that the American people have a right to know who is underwriting their presidential candidates, and their democracy."

[corporatewhore]

13. just to warn ya dean doesnt have that great of anti corporate record

concerning ibm

[TLM]

27. I know about IBM... Dean did a fine job of balancing the issues.

They needed to bring business into vermont... their economy was in the crapper.

He did a good job of getting them there and still limiting a lot of the things they wanted to do.

And I do not want someone who is anti-business. I want someone who is anti-business abuses. THere is nothing wrong with encouraging business. The problem is with letting business run wild.

[blm]

14. That's not corporate pac money. Those LIFETIME totals prove how ethical

Kerry is. The money is from individuals employed in those fields and YOU know it.

BTW...are you proposing that Kerry's BROTHER and his coworkers would NOT have donated to Kerry over an 18 year period unless they got something from him?

[TLM]

32. LOL! Rationalize all you want... but the facts are right there.

Kerry is no stranger to corporate money.

And what is a PAC, BLM?

That's a political action committee. Who make up the membership of a PAC if not... "individuals employed in those fields."

If you have a bunch of telecom execs donating to Kerry as individuals, a lot like Bush's Rangers have corporate money flowing in from individuals, and then Kerry supports legislation beneficial to the telecom industry... how is that any better than taking PAC money?

You want to rip on Dean for taking corporate money, and yet your guy's top contributers over his career have almost all been corporate.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

53. Yet Kerry was a big leader for NAFTA too

so I'd watch who you're calling "neo-liberal" - because Kerry is.

[lastknowngood]

4. No and we also have

two bones man the DLC(the moderate republican council)has help split the democratic party for sometime. I'm a fairly Conservative guy myself when it comes to spending taxpayer money however I'm more liberal on social issues. The real problem will become evident when you start looking at the electoral map.

[corporatewhore]

6. Theres no way i could vote for clark way too scary

freetrade soa vieques......

[poopyjr]

10. Too scary huh?

The guy currently in the White House not scary enough for ya?

[corporatewhore]

12. i live in texas

[wyldwolf]

18. I don't tink we'll miss your vote.

[Forkboy]

40. Is that gamble you really want to take?

[poopyjr]

48. What is the alternative? Beg?

[Forkboy]

56. The alternative is

not pissing on potential allies then bitching when they do something you didn't like.

[wyldwolf]

63. It is the "potential allies" who are threatening to effectively vote Bush

...by witholding their vote if the Dem isn't their choice.

Frankly, I'm tired of it I just don't care anymore.

I won't beg anyone to stay and I through reasoning with them.

Go green.

[Cheswick2.0]

7. REV AL

that's about it

[TLM]

I wouldn't trust Al any further than I could throw him

Al Sharpton is out for Al Sharpton and that's it.

[corporatewhore]

24. oh come on he adds some humor and color in the debates

what would they be like with put his one liners?I think he shoukld be made press secratary to whoever wins

[TLM]

35. Sure AL is funny... and he does bring a lot to the debates...

but he's also an opportunistic liar of the worst sort.

I wouldn't trust him. Doesn't mean I want him to get lost... I just wouldn't support him.

[AntiCoup2K4]

43. Yeah, but he's looking pretty good compared to the DLC

Let's hope it doesn't come to that :scared:

[Printer70]

11. No; Clark fits Nader's warning: militarism and corporatism

When he wasn't bombing health care facillities and elementary schools in Kosovo (per his endorser, Michael Moore in Bowling for Columbine), he was lobbying for corporations as part of the military-industrial complex. But he's a "Democrat", so hey, I guess I can't knock him. Dean can make a comeback- but it will mean the DLC needs to stop tampering with the election.

[wyldwolf]

16. Proof?

Link?

Movie transcript?

waiting...

[TLM]

19. Have you seen BFC?

One point he makes is that the shooting took place on the same day as the heaviest bombing in kosovo, where hospitals and schools were hit.

His point was we were all, as a nation, horrified by the violence in schools here in the US... while we were oblivious to the bombing of schools and hospitals in kosovo.

[windansea]

21. who gave the orders for the bombings??

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm???

[TLM]

36. That would be Clark....

Unless you think the CinC was designating targets.


The president states the objective... like stop the genocide.

The president authorized the means... you can use bombing.

The commander of the air command designates targets.

[windansea]

38. look

we have COMPLETE civilian control of our armed forces...if you think some crimes were comitted in Bosnia/Kosovo take it up with Clinton.

Who do you think wanted the air campaign to be high level only??...which is probably why some bombs went astray..i

hint...it was someone in a political office...not Clark

[TLM]

44. What part of "Clinton did not designate targets" is confusing you?

I agree that Clinton does hold ultimate responsibility for the actions of those under his command... that's how a chain of command works.

However that does not excuse Clark of responsibility for the way in which he choose to try to achieve the mission objectives.


"I was just following orders" is no excuse for slaughtering civilians, especially when your orders where to HALT the slaughtering of civilians by the Serbs.


The bottom line is Clinton did not put an X on that hospital, Clark did. Clinton did not put an X on the marketplace at Niz, Clark did. Clinton did not put an X on the TV station in Belgrade, Clark did.

Clark made the choice to try to achieve mission objectives by targeting civilians and civilians infrastructure. And for that his ass should be right next to Slobo in the Hague.

[windansea]

51. what a crock

guess what...Clark is a witness at the Hague...he's not on trial

If you have proof Clark is a war criminal post it...

[TLM]

54. When is the last time an American was on trial at the Hague?

If it is wrong to kill civilians in Iraq, it was wrong in Kosovo.

Do you think Bush will stand before the Hague either?

No, American war crimes are never treated seriously.



We've been targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure for years and getting away with it. The fact we're not made to account for our nation's crimes does not change the fact they are crimes.

The UN human rights commissioner flat out said of Clark;s bombings in kosovo that they were unacceptable.

[wyldwolf]

64. yes, and Moore never said what the poster claims he said...

"When he wasn't bombing health care facillities and elementary schools in Kosovo (per his endorser, Michael Moore in Bowling for Columbine)"

Never once was that spoken in Bowling For Columbine.

[windansea]

17. LOL

who was giving Clark his orders in Kosovo????

was it....gasp....President Clinton??

who recommended database profiling for airlines, and endorsed CAPPS I before even 911....was it ....gasp....Gore???

[TLM]

20. Was Clinton putting Xs on the targets to bomb?

Or was specific target selection left up to the CO?


And at no point to I recall Gore suggesting we use personal consumer information complied without the individual's knowledge in airport screening.

[windansea]

31. take a look at the Gore Commission

interesting reading
http://www.airportnet.org/depts/regulatory/gorefinal.htm

Clinton admin bears responsibility for every bomb dropped in that war

Clark just executed the plan.

[TLM]

37. Clinton did not designate targets.

Only mission objectives.

The air command CO does the target selection.

[windansea]

41. and who told the air command

to only bomb from high altitude?? to prevent US casualties??

hint: initials WJC

[TLM]

52. Yes Clinton did mandate mission paramaters.....

he did not however designate targets.

Do you understand what that means?

[windansea]

55. how do you know who designated targets?

please explain to us all exactly what happened..and back it up with some links...be back later to see what you come up with

[TLM]

57. Standard military process....

The CinC doesn't micromanage, they delegate.


Now Clark was the SAC... that means he was the top decision making guy in the the NATO air command.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,208056,00.html

A month later, with Nato getting increasingly frustrated about Milosevic's refusal to buckle, Mary Robinson, the UN human rights commissioner, said Nato's bombing campaign had lost its "moral purpose". Referring to the cluster bomb attack on residential areas and market in the Serbian town of Nis, she described Nato's range of targets as "very broad" and "almost unfocused". There were too many mistakes; the bombing of the Serbian television station in Belgrade - which killed a make-up woman, among others - was "not acceptable".

Nato, which soon stopped apologising for mistakes which by its own estimates killed 1,500 civilians and injured 10,000, said that "collateral damage" was inevitable, and the small number of "mistakes" remarkable, given the unprecedented onslaught of more than 20,000 bombs.

Yet once Nato - for political reasons, dictated largely by the US - insisted on sticking to high-altitude bombing, with no evidence that it was succeeding in destroying Serb forces committing atrocities against ethnic Albanians, the risk of civilian casualties increased, in Kosovo and throughout Serbia. Faced with an increasingly uncertain public opinion at home, Nato governments chose more and more targets in urban areas, and experimented with new types of bombs directed at Serbia's civilian economy, partly to save face. By Nato's own figures, of the 10,000 Kosovans massacred by Serb forces, 8,000 were killed after the bombing campaign started.

[windansea]

60. keep trying

"Yet once Nato - for political reasons, dictated largely by the US - insisted on sticking to high-altitude bombing"

there you go....for "political reasons".....doesn't sound like SAC to me...

"Faced with an increasingly uncertain public opinion at home, Nato governments chose more and more targets in urban areas"

again..."nato governments"..."public opinion"...doesn't sound like Clark made these decisions...

the bottom line is....in western democracies...Generals and SAC's are always subservient to their civilian superiors...

if you think war crimes were committed you'd better take it up with Clinton and the European heads of state at the time...unless you can prove that Clark disobeyed orders...

another hallmark of democracies is that the burden of proof rests with the prosecution...state your proof or your argument is just another pathetic smear

[Printer70]

30. Sorry, Clark was in charge of selecting targets

...not Clinton. Please don't pass the buck. It's not the mark of a leader.

[BootinUp]

45. Do you have any real evidence of that claim?

My understanding is that it was a complicated process involving many governments, our own pentagon, etc. selecting, recommending, approving.

There happens to be a highly regarded book on the subject of the political and military decision making process in the Kosovo campaign, its called Winning Modern Wars. Check it out.

[Forkboy]

46. I'm sure that book is totally unbiased

:eyes:

[BootinUp]

58. I haven't heard anyone call foul

on Clark's book. Don't you think we would have heard something by now if there were inaccuracies, lies, distortions in it?

[windansea]

62. LOL

birds chirp while the smear merchants google frantically

[AP]

15. Edwards. He ran in '98 against NAFTA. They don't like him that much.

Dan Schorr said this on NPR last summer.

[TLM]

22. Yeah but he made up for it by supporting SS privatization.

[AP]

25. Saying in '98 that it might be ok if 10% were invested, and saying now tha

the equity owenrship in pubic corps needs to be democratized because they're basically ripping off investors is pro-DLC?

Why don't they like him now then?

[TLM]

42. Edwards is a member of the DLC...

So obviously they do not dislike him that much.

Probaly because of his support for no child left behind, the patriot act, and the IWR... that's a very DLC friendly record for a one-term congressman.


Now granted Edwards has admitted voting for the no child left behind act was a mistake and he regrets it. I can give him credit for that.

But he is DLC.

[AP]

50. DLC exists for NAFTA and big business gifts. Edwards doesn't.

[AP]

26. For emphasis: DLC does NOT like him. Didn't like him in 98, not a favorite

now.

[JaneQPublic]

39. They liked him enough to let him join

http://www.issues2000.org/John_Edwards.htm#Principles_+_Values

--Member of Democratic Leadership Council. (Nov 2000)
--New Democrat: "Third Way" instead of left-right debate. (Nov 2000)
--Member of the Senate New Democrat Coalition. (Jan 2001)

[AP]

49. Dan Schorr says he's one of their least favorite members. Anti-NAFTA.

[goodhue]

29. Kucinich in primary, ABB in general

Its just that simple. If everyone who supported Kucinich's issues voted for him he would become ABB. It can happen.

[morgan2]

34. its really the best solution..

when in doubt go with the one ignored by the media, most likely the best candidate.

[AntiCoup2K4]

47. If only Dennis hadn't said 3 little words....

"department of peace"

You can't play that against the Bush manfactured 24/7 culture of fear and terror (as evidenced in Tuesday's Lies Of The Eunnuch speech) "You gotta re-elect me or terorrists will eat your children!".

And as much as I like the guy, he looks like an aging 8 year old. Even before the Bush regime, the media would have ripped that to shreds. Look at what they did to one little 2 second scream, for shit's sake.

[MuseRider]

59. Sure you can

play that against Bush*. I do it all the time and I am in Kansas for goodness sakes. It all depends on how you frame the issue. People do not like being afraid nor do they like the idea of being watched by the government. It is easy if you don't look at it as a wacko idea yourself.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

61. All he has to do is rename Defense to the Department of War too

People love honesty in politicians. Kucinich can say, "we decide whether to use the Department of Peace or the Department of War".

[mrgorth]

65. Lots of responses

few answers. Let me see if I have this. If Dean goes, the only non-DLCer in the crowd (outside of Sharpton and Kucinich) is Clark, right? I'm fine with that. He can have half of Clinton's team working with him. I don't have an issue with that. My issue is with what Fromm has done to Dean, his personal decision to wage war on him because Dean had the balls to call dems out for spreading 'em for Bush. Yes, it's personal, and it's ashame because I kind of respect Kerry. I'd like to see Fromm's head on a silver platter.

[Demo Gog]

66. DLC

The Democratic Leadership Council is a beneficial organization to our Democratic Party, contrary to what 95% of you believe. Al From and Bruce Reed know that in future elections, it's not going to be liberal vs. conservative; it's going to be moderate vs. extremist. And they're positioning our party brilliantly for the next several decades as the party of progressive moderation.