Here is why NBD is madness - WWH(oward)D?

[ProfessorPlum]

"Nobody but Dean" is madness and I say that as an ardent Dean supporter and someone who is very very fond of many of the posters here, especially other Dean supporters.

Think about this: What is THE most important issue to Dr. Dean this election season? I think he has made the answer clear - the defeat of GWB. Dean is running as a Democrat, he is part of the party, and I would think most of his supporters are members of the Dem. party.

As a Democratic opponent of GWB, what do you think Dean would do if he had a ballot that said (for example) Kerry vs. Bush? Do you think he would write himself in? Honestly, what do you think he would do?

If people refuse to vote against Bush because they can't vote for Dean, that will mean that Dean's candidacy, will, with full irony, be the best thing that happens to Bush. Do you think that is what Dean wants? Do you think he wants that as his legacy? The man who enabled Bush to actually win election, instead of stopping him.

Ask yourself - what would Howard do? He would vote against Bush.

[HuckleB]

1. Well written.

Couldn't agree more.

[Khephra]

2. This Dean supporter is still ABB

Although I pray that doesn't mean Lieberman.

[ProfessorPlum]

3. ditto that

Yahweh forbid.

[bowens43]

23. This Dean supporter is AABB

Almost anybody but bush

Everyone should draw the line somewhere.

[wysi]

4. They'll come around...

... eventually, when they examine their consciences and realize that they don't want the blood on their hands too when they help * get re-selected.

[Jim Sagle]

5. NBD = w. Not a smart calculation.

[Clark Can WIN]

6. Glad to see this because while I may not really care for him

I will vote for Dean in a FREAKIN HEARTBEAT if he is the nominee. No grabbing my football and going home for me.

[Khephra]

7. Hey, that's cool of you!

I've hated a lot of your posts, but if you're ABB you're down with me.

:toast:

[virtualobserver]

8. the NBD serves notice on the Democratic Party .......

that they need to stand up and fight Bush.

They barely slowed his progress during this term, and he didn't even win the election. Both pre and post-911, he behaved as if he had a mandate, and Democrats enabled him to get 90% of what he wanted.

AS twisted as his agenda was, Bush, through his administration led this country and the Democratic party barely resisted.

The Democratic nominee has to earn every vote.

[Khephra]

9. The Democratic nominee has to earn every vote.

That I'll agree with.

We are going to have a hardened warrior (no ref to Clark meant) to face Bush. That's what it's going to take. That's why I'll support anyone (please god, no Lieberman!) who wins the Primaries.

I know it will take some healing time for the supporters of whatever candidates lose. I hope we can unify and fight against Bush. But I'm afraid that there's going to be a lot of attacks and "I told you so's".

But ABB. Most Def.

[last1standing]

10. I've thought about this and I have to say I am not ABB.

You could say that I'm effectively ABB as I will vote for any of the frontrunning Democratic candidates, but I would not vote for Lieberman or Sharpton as I think that even if they did win the white house they would end up doing more damage to the Democratic party and therefore the country, than even bush*.

Either of those two would sink the Democrats into nothing more than a minor regional party, fighting for statehouses. I cannot in good conscience do anything that damaging. At least with bush* we would have another chance in four years.

That said, I will vote for Dean, Clark, Edwards, Kucinich, and Kerry in that order as long as they're Democrats on the ballot.

[Walt Starr]

11. Okay, you somewhat convinced me

I'm now MNBD (Maybe Nobody But Dean).

Please, nobody try to convince me to transfer unless Dean Drops out.

[ProfessorPlum]

12. Good for you Walt

no one wants to shake your support for Dean (well nobody who is serious about it), but in the event that Dean doesn't go the distance, please consider another Democrat as an alternative to a vote for Bush.

Please see this Hilarious page as a reminder of why we need all the votes we can get against Bush:

http://www.theonion.com/4003/opinion1.html

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. and good for you Professor

Very persuasive and fair arguement. You are indeed a scholar (and also, obviously a gentleman).

[mitchum]

13. You're a good man, Walt

Back your candidate with all of your might.
But I'm warning you, I'm still an ABB nag

[dreissig]

17. ABB Nag

There's a way around the whole controversy: Don't nominate Kerry. In 1968, Humphrey thought the antiwar Left was locked in. We weren't, and it cost him the election.

[nightperson]

25. Wow, thanks so much for taking some responsibility

for Nixon's election. The results you guys deliver can't be pointed out enough. Young people need to be reminded of how very helpful the separatist far left traditionally is in Democratic efforts to end wars and defeat Republicans :thumbsdown: :grr: :thumbsdown: .

[mitchum]

31. I would also like to "thank" you for Nixon's election

You must be so proud of yourself. Of course, you are.
And, once again, thanks for everything

[dansolo]

15. I'll be ABB

So Howard Dean doesn't become a scapegoat for inaction from the Democratic Party. If the Democratic Party nominates someone else, and they manage to lose to Bush, they will just try and pawn off the blame onto Howard Dean and his supporters. 2002 should have been a wakeup call, but we may be forced to endure another 4 years of Bush because we are so afraid of change.

[dreissig]

16. No Repeat of 1968

In the 2004 election we shouldn't repeat the mistakes of the 1968 election. In those days, Hubert Humphrey underestimated the strength of the antiwar Left - not just the numbers but the intensity of bitterness lingering after the Chicago convention. As the campaign developed, Humphrey tried to make amends, but it was too little, too late.

If the Iowa result establishes a pattern, Democrats will disenfranchise the anti-war Left. This disenfranchisement won't necessarily impact the 2004 election, but it sunk Humphrey in 1968. Fortunately, there's a way to avoid that: Don't nominate Kerry.

[library_max]

29. Here it is again - Look What You Made Me Do

If the majority of Democrats don't vote the way you want them to vote, it'll be their fault when you do everything you can to split the party and throw the election to Bush. Really grown-up thinking.

[Fleshdancer]

18. I think this whole NBD thing is way overblown

DU has many hardcore candidate supporters and even here, there's what, maybe 5 or less people who refuse to vote for anyone but Dean? Isn't this mass hysteria over nothing?

Every week there seems to be another "ABB pledge!" thread or "Dean supporters, if Dean doesn't win, what ever will you do?" poll. And every week, hundreds of Dean supporters yet again reassure everyone that they will vote ABB and a small handful claims NBD. And yet we like to focus on the small NBD crowd.

Screw it. If we're all so freakin' concern about 5 people who won't vote for other candidates, then go out and recruit 5 people in your neighborhood who will vote. It's that simple.

[youngred]

20. Well

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=148254


Looks like a lot more than 5 to me. Even if its just 5, assmue this is a fiarly representative sample of Dean voters (it is his core constiuency on DU) that is a significant number when posted nationwide. Assuming the election is as tight as the last one (and it very well could be) those votes could be EXCEEDINGLY important.

I don't want to play games this time around, do you?

[Fleshdancer]

24. ugh, you make me sift through a thread with over 100 posts???

After quickly reading through that ENTIRE thread, I counted roughly 8 or so people. One, who was a strong NBD before now has a sig line stating that he is no longer NBD because he could be convinced to vote for someone else. So technically, that brings the number down to 7.

Another poster didn't say who he/she supported so It's not clear if this one is NBD...she/he was against a corporate slave candidate.

There were more Dean supporters who came out as ABB on that thread.

If you don't want to play games this time around, then I hope you're doing your part to GOTV. Constantly trying to convince the same 5-10 people here on DU to vote for any Democrat doesn't seem to be very productive. It would be a better idea to go out and recruit the votes from your neighborhood. That's what I intend to do because getting Bush out of the WH takes more than complaining about it on DU.

[youngred]

26. Who says I haven't been?

more than 8 there, and the attitude is indicitive of many who did not post to the thread.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

38. you could also check out my thread from the other day...

About adults being stingy with their right to vote and literally wasting it by not voting...

[HuckleB]

32. Possibly.

It may also be partly a reaction to the ABD crowd. Still, after 2000, I think everyone worries about unity, if we are to win this time around.

[Ripley]

19. It reminds me of what happened last time.

Not to start a Green flamefest here (and to be honest, I voted for Nader...but wait, wait!! I live in Alabama which went about 99% for Smirky...I would never have voted for Nader if I lived in a state that mattered)...but...

ABB should be the mantra heard around the world in 2004. From the most Green of the Greens to the Marxists to the Reformists...Hate the State of the Union? You must be ABB then.

:thumbsup:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. I'm voting against the war. And, those who support it.

It isn't about Dean (or, Kucinich or Sharpton), it's about not supporting those who were willing to see thousands of people die to further their political ambitions. Whether it be bush or his lackeys in the Democratic Party. If Dean wants to vote for Kerry or Edwards that's his choice. Mine will differ.

[bhunt70]

22. It's incredibly simple why NBD is fallable.

The simple principle of divide and conquer.

If you have the chance to win again your "enemy", then you take that chance. If you worry about the infighting in your camp before winning the battle then you are doing your enemies work. If you don't get behind the nominee they you are really just fighting on two fronts.

Nominate someone who will win, have a concerted effort to make that person win in the GE against your common "enemy" in this case GWB. Once having accomplished the main goal, then hash out your differences and make changes to the system.

You have to get in the door first. Once you get your foot in the door is the time for party introspection. If you have a chance to win the GE, you don't go tinkering with the process. If you have a portion of the people trying to make their point because their horse doesn't win, then what change has really happened?

[On the Road]

27. Another ABB Dean Supporter

I sure hope the NBD crowd is small. Howard himself vehemently disowns this position.

[library_max]

28. Exactly. Thank You, Prof. Plum.

What has Dean done except run against Bush? And it's a damn good thing he has. It's one of the things I like most about him; and frankly I have to agree with some other posters lately that there's a good chance he rescued the primary battle from a squalid squabble over how many nickels go into which pet program. All of the candidates need to follow Dean's lead and take the fight to Bush (by-and-large they have).

So how can anyone support Dean and not be determined to see Bush removed from the White House? Do you support Dean but automatically discount 95% of the things he says? Or is Dean just your stalking-horse for attacking the mainstream Democratic Party?

If Dean is nominated, I will be honored and delighted to support him and vote for him. I'm not 100% sure I won't vote for him in the primaries, when my state comes up. But he's not the only "real Democrat" in the race.

And if you're sticking with NBD simply to enhance your bargaining position with the threat of bolting, okay, but please don't try to portray that selfish, divisive, and ultimately dishonest position as a stand on principle.

[Northwind]

30. If you want Bush out

You had better nominate Dean.

Period. Nothing you say will change this NBDer.

Nominate Dean, or you get 4 more years of Bush, and it is what you will deserve.

NBD '04

[youngred]

33. now who's giving threats

c'mon this is ridiculous

[Northwind]

34. We are

The NBD majority is giving threats. Nominate Dean or you get 4 more years of Bush.

Count on it.

NBD '04

[nightperson]

36. As a Kerry supporter,

is it rude or sick for me to cheerfully think that Kerry's campaign will be quite helped by people seeing that "The NBD majority is giving threats"? "The NBD majority"! Ooooooooooh, :wow: :scared: :scared: :scared: LMAO! Hey, thanks for all the help! :P :smoke:

[youngred]

37. Why that's downright democratic and socially intelligent of you

:eyes:

[FrankBooth]

39. NBD Majority?

Does not exist. NBD cannot even be described as a minority.

[mitchum]

35. No, it's "what YOU will deserve"

[freetempe]

40. It ain't about NBD

Its about not having to chose between Bush and Bush Lite.

Kerry and Lieberman are the biggest corporatist Bush enablers in the Democratic Party. I will NOT vote for them and I will not vote for Bush. I'll vote Green or write in Howard Dean.

[library_max]

41. Point one: you clearly don't know Kerry from Adam's off ox.

Point two: voting Green and/or writing in a name are equivalent to staying home on Election Day. What good does that do you or your causes?

What is it you want that you don't think you'll get from Kerry? You ought to make a list of the four most important issues in the race and then compare Bush's stands to Kerry's. If you honestly see no difference (as opposed to merely not getting everything you want from Kerry), then I guess you might as well stay home if Kerry's the nominee.

If you want to support someone else in the primaries, support someone in the primaries and God bless you. Can't you see the difference between that and saying you won't for the eventual nominee if it's Kerry?