So much for the AWOL card from Clark....

[TLM]

I think every Clark supporter has said at least once, some many many times, that Clark would be a sure winner because he could hit Bush with the deserter/AWOL card.

Mike Moore went out on a limb and lobbed that ball right up there for Clark to spike... and the moderator tossed it up there nice and fat and easy for Clark to hit out of the park...


And he disavowed it. He totally left Moore hanging on that one... after Moore supported him. So since Clark has shown he WON'T USE the AWOL attack on Bush, does that change any of your opinions?

I actually said as I was watching the debates and this question was presented to Clark that "if he stands by it, I'll reconsider voting for him." But he ran from it and left Moore out to dry.

LAME!


I mean seriously... if Clark won't go after Bush being AWOL when the question is handed to him and he's surrounded by democrats, what makes anybody think he'll go after Bush on the AWOL issue later?

:wtf:

[Dookus]

1. You're entirely wrong....

the charge is out there, now being led by Michael Moore. http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php

The issue gets attention, Bush is exposed, and Clark's the good guy who didn't attack.

Sounds brilliant.

[lovedems]

9. You are so correct!

He essentially pulled a 2000 *. He is letting other people say what needs to be said while remaining "above the fray". It is a little bit of "beat them at their own game". How many rethuglicans are apologetic when they like something that is said? I thought it was brilliant.

[TLM]

29. So Clark is now "The guy who doesn't get in the fight"

Clark is now the guy who won't attack Bush on AWOL, but will leave Moore hanging out there to do it for him?

Somehow the message I've gotten from Clark supporters over the last several months was NOT that "We should support Clark because he'll hang back where it is safe and let other people take all the heat fighting Bush."

[lovedems]

46. I would hardly say he is leaving Moore hanging out there

Michael Moore has proved over and over that he is capable of taking care of himself.

Clark opened the door for a much needed debate.

[mikehiggins]

55. Oh wait! My heavens! Clark left Moore hanging out there!

Do you think Mike feels hurt? Does he have a tear in the corner of his eye? Is he sighing deeply with ennui?

Moore revels in this kind of thing and Clark is standing aside and letting him do what he does best.

Clark is never going to run his campaign the way you would like, TLM. I'm sure that he will be hurt that you felt he let down the hometeam by refusing to give FOX a soundbite of him saying Moore was wrong or that Bush was a deserter.

Let me explain. The media is not our friend. Remember Howard Dean?

In political terms Clark handled this one well, just as he handled the Axcion question well, and the democrat question well. He didn't set the world on fire but neither did he burn the barn down around his ears.

And he got two hours of free tv time to smile at the people.

Not a bad deal, all told.

[beaconess]

37. The point is that it's being discussed

Clark doesn't need to jump into the conversation.

[TLM]

13. OMFG did you just say "Clark's the good guy who didn't attack"

First off, he didn't just "not attack" he backed off of and disavowed a claim about Bush that is clearly a fact... Bush was AWOL.

He did what Nixon liked to call an RF. He left Moore out to dry.

Secondly... Clark's the good guy who didn't attack? That's sure a change of tune. Clark as the good guy candidate who won't attack Bush for being AWOL.

How soon we forget all the attacks on Dean... oh he got a deferment and so he won't be able to attack Bush on being AWOL the way Clark will. Clark is sure to win because he can hammer Bush on military service with being AWOL!

Shall we do a search for all the posts from Clark supporters that have both "Clark" and "AWOL" in them? How many days do you think it would take to read through them all?

Are you actually seriously saying that "Clark's the good guy who didn't attack" is not a 180 degree reversal on what almost every Clark supporter has been saying for the last five months?

[OKNancy]

24. I haven't heard Dean mention it one time

Has he?

[TLM]

33. Quick change the subject to Dean!

We're talking about Clark here because Clark is the guy that his supporters have been hyping over Dean as the guy who can attack Bush on AWOL. They say Dean can't because he got a deferment... that has been a huge meme from Clark supporters that Clark can hammer Bush on AWOL.

And Clark just refused to do it.

[gulliver]

36. True. Dean can't mention it.

As you know.

[TLM]

43. And now Clark won't....

Which pretty much invalidates the claim that Clark has this advantage over Dean... that Clark can hammer Bush with the AWOL issue and Dean can't. Because now Clark can't... Clark gave up that attack tonight.

By backing away from it tonight, if he tries to pick it up again later he looks inconsistent and dishonest... like he is trying to recycle previously discarded attacks.

[Cogito]

51. No

The mistake Dean makes is being the one holding the knife. Look at Bush, you never see him directly attack an opponent, instead his shills at Fox, Weekly Standard etc are the ones who do the dirty work. What we need are some journalists who will follow up now and ask whether or not Bush really is a deserter or not. Clark can then explore some issues about how difficult it is for Guardsmen to meet their duties even when they AREN'T deployed...then an allusion to the President...then go after additional benefits to Vets.

[RetroLounge]

88. This isn't about Dean

try staying on topic...

[Bertrand]

58. Re: "And now Clark won't...."

None of the candidates would, but with Dean the issue completely falls away instead of it being put forth in the public realm by Democratic supporters. You've completely missed the point of how Clark could bring this issue to light.

[Bertrand]

49. Re: OMFG...

By "Good Guy", i think its pretty obvious that Dookus is referring to General Election strategy and not making a moral argument.

1. Clark didnt disavow the claim, he stated that he didnt know which is calculated so that the charge can still sit in the air instead of him comdemning it and having people be upset with him on closing the issue.

2. Because dean got a deferment and admitted to dodging the draft, the Democratic faithful cannot broach the subject without the appearance of being hypocritical.

[Clark Can WIN]

50. Wrong TLM, he did not "dissavow" it and I dare you to show me where he did

because you can't. You are accusing him of not doing the very thing the republicans on Faux news are accusing him of in fact doing. It makes no sense. You're both wrong.

He said Michael Moore was entitled to express himself and that he himself had not checked all the facts. Simple.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

83. Send him a damn e-mail and give him the facts!

[Tatiana]

92. Agree and disagree.

The issue is out there now. That's a good thing. Even the ardent Bush fanatics will pause, and perhaps be curious enough to try to find out whether the charge is true or not. (We know it is.)

Clark stayed above the fray. That's also a good thing.

But what I wished he would have done was given subtle and smooth response that firmly *suggested* Bush may have been derelict in his responsibility as a serviceman.

[ALago1]

2. I initially felt the same way

But Im hoping he's saving that card for a later date, perhaps the GE campaign should he be nominated.

Being that its such a huge bomb to drop, what good would it do dropping it during the primaries?

[TLM]

17. But now he can't ... he disavowed it and left Moore hanging

If Clark tries to bring this up later he'll look dishonest and inconsistant... and they'll paint it as desperate scraping of the barrel by Clark.

"He's resorting to fringe leftist attacks from Mike Moore that he previously had the respect and good sense to disavow."

Clark just lost the best weapon he had against Bush... and he lost his advantage before ever getting into the fight. He just gave it up.

[funky_bug]

28. Again, I respectfully disagree

The NH debate isn't the time for that. Aside from that, he did not disavow Moore's comments. He said he hadn't looked into them. That's fair enough... for now... but he's left the door wide open, and previously said those charges have never been investigated... again, a wide open inuendo.

[TLM]

40. Oh odd though somehow I do not remember the Clark folks saying

Vote for Clark, he'll leave the door open to possible innuendo that Bush could have possibly been AWOL or not.

I understand that Clark supporters want to put a positive spin on this, but come on... Clark dropped the ball.

[ALago1]

42. It's strategery

I mean...strategy.

If your preferred candidate had a bomb that would do irreperable damage to Bush if timed perfectly when all eyes were on the upcoming election, would he drop it given an opportune time to do so 10 months earlier, even though it would do some good?

I think he's just thinking long-term. Which is good...

[TLM]

45. By backing off it now....

he makes it almost impossible to come back to it again later.

[funky_bug]

61. Impossible to avoid

It's all over the media circuit right now. It will be about as impossible to come back to as Dean's scream.

[funky_bug]

Two points

1. I never said that. I said he could kick Bush the Lesser's ass straight back to Texas.

2. I said he would open the democratic party, welcoming the Independants and the Republicans who are sick of The State of Chimpy

3. He didn't drop the ball. He punted it back to Moore. An educated, civil man would never assume to explain the words or actions of an alli, but would rather leave it up to that person to defend himself. Why should Clark have to defend the comments of another.

4. You face it. Certain people were looking for Clark to screw up, and it seems (as I've seen from the board tonight) that this was all they got.

[mikehiggins]

63. Would you mind sharing with us your definition of disavow?

Somehow it doesn't seem to fit what I saw and heard this evening.

Neither does denial, rejection, dismissal or any number of other words that imply that Clark's answer was "No, I do not support that position."

Oh, and by the way? Dean ruined his own campaign. Nobody had to help him. NAH, NAH, NA NA NAH!

[roguevalley]

3. Doesn't change my mind. The time is coming when he will and I will

wait.

[kstewart33]

4. Clark was right to set aside the question

Whether Bush was AWOL or not has no impact on the future of this country or on the critical issues facing this campaign.

It's an irrelevant question because it does not mean anything. Jennings was baiting Clark and he wisely refused to nibble.

Do you honestly believe that this election will turn on whether Bush is a deserter or not?

Move on to an issue that means something.

[Wapsie B]

18. It does not mean anything?

The Commander-In-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States of America is a military deserter, a criminal, and it doesn't mean anything?

[shivaji]

100. Is this is "the" issue we are going to beat Bush on? then I have

a bridge to sell for a reasonable price!

Come on guys, all those fat and sassy people care about is how big
is their tax refund and if they can find a good job. May be they also
care if they can afford health care,...and oh yes if the schools are
really educating their kids?

But then what does a 62 year old guy like me know? Nah..I been only
watching the political game for 43 years. May be all you younger guys
know the real issue in this election...may be all they really care
about is whether the commander in chief was AWOL in his 20's! I think
we may have hit the jackpot!!

[wyldwolf]

5. Funny how everyone disagrees with you on this...

Clark: I haven't looked at those facts but more people than Michael Moore have said it...

[TLM]

22. He hasn't looked at the facts?

That was also his answer for lobbying for CAPPSII.

But all the Clark supporters have said that this is why CLark can win... and he just backed off the AWOL claim.

If he tries to use it later he looks inconsistant and desperate.


He could have just as easily said that we should take a closer look at Bush's service record, but he dropped the ball.

I would think he'd know the facts on the AWOL claim, what with having Moore on his team and being a military lifer. I mean his supporters have only been saying that Clark's big advantage is his ability to play the AWOL card... yet Clark just folded that card.

[Bertrand]

38. Re: He hasn't looked at the facts?"

No mainstream candidate will call Bush a deserter (btw, for you to pile on Clark with this issue while your favourite candidate, who cannot even touch this topic because he's an admitted draft dodger, sits in silence is laughable) because that is a charge with legal repercussions, especially since it hasnt been established in a court of law if the charge is correct or not. The "AWOL Card" would be in play by the fact that Clarks record would force a contrast, which would bring forward through the Democratic supporters the charge of him being a deserter, not an actual condemnation by the head of the ticket. You cant be serious with your argument.

Edit: Spelling, etc.

[TLM]

52. I am amazed you continue the meme as you contradict it...

"btw, for you to pile on Clark with this issue while your favourite candidate, who cannot even touch this topic because he's an admitted draft dodger, sits in silence is laughable"

That's the whole point.

The primary attack most Clark supporters have made against Dean has been regarding his lack of military service and deferment making it hard, if not impossible, for him to attack Bush on the AWOL issue. While, they say, Clark will be able to go after Bush for being AWOL relentlessly.

Yet Clark tonight baked off the AWOL claims Moore has made and pretty much made his using the AWOL argument later hard, if not impossible.

SO now Clark has effectivly declawed himself... this whole claim that Clark would be able to use the AWOL attack in now been proven wrong.

[Bertrand]

66. Re: "I am amazed you continue the meme as you contradict it..."

The primary attack most Clark supporters have made against Dean has been regarding his lack of military service and deferment making it hard, if not impossible, for him to attack Bush on the AWOL issue. While, they say, Clark will be able to go after Bush for being AWOL relentlessly.

Not "to attack" but "to be attacked." As ive stated already, none of the candidates will call bush a deserter because its the equivilant of Republicans calling Clinton a "Rapist" in that they are charges of a major crime being committed without being declared by a court of law to be valid. It would be politically supid for any of the candidates to overtly make such a claim.

I dont know what "baked off" means, but with Clark deflecting the question rather than denying it or condemning Moore continues to leave the door open to future criticism by Democrats of Bush on it if Clark were to be the nominee.

Also, i didnt contradict anything. Dean admitted that he could have served, which means he dodged the draft.

[mikehiggins]

68. Whoops! Went from "all" to "most" in a matter of minutes.

WHich is it, TLM? Did we all base our support for Clark on the AWOL charge? I sure didn't. I didn't even know about it until I started posting here. I was not surprised--nothing low about Bush would surprise me--but I had no idea it had happened.

My support of CLark is based on the weakness of this party on defense and the advantage of having a high ranking military man carrying our banner in the South and the West.

Nobody's going to get elected on one issue.

[TLM]

87. Did I say it was the only reason anybody supports Clark?

No, I said, "The primary attack most Clark supporters have made against Dean has been regarding his lack of military service and deferment making it hard, if not impossible, for him to attack Bush on the AWOL issue. While, they say, Clark will be able to go after Bush for being AWOL relentlessly."


And that statement is true.

[mikehiggins]

98. Just look at message 22 eom

[Bucky]

56. Whoa. Dean is NOT a "draft dodger" as you say. Please fight fair

I'm not a Dean supporter, but can't we at least attack him on fair grounds? You can't call Dean "an admitted draft dodger." That's a specific legal term designating a specific crime. Dean submitted valid medical evidence to an army doctor and got a legitimate deferment. Draft dodging is when your number gets called and you hot-foot it for Mexico, Canada, Sweden, or some other spot where the army can't find you. I suppose most dodgers stayed in the US and just kept a low profile, or got caught and went to jail. Dean sure didn't do that.

[Bertrand]

70. I fight "fair"

im not referring to the term draft dodger in the legal sense, as ive stated by him getting the deferment, but rather that he admitted that he could have served but didnt. To be clear, Im not condemning Dean or anyone for dodging the draft, but if you did and you run for president, you nulify any attacks on the military credibility of the opponent.

[mikehiggins]

65. I must have forgotten that. When did I say Clark would have to

depend on Bush being AWOL to win the election?

I'm a pretty steadfast Clarkista, and I don't recall that.

Maybe you're right. You certainly seem to spend as much time on Clark threads as any of us supporters.

[MIMStigator]

6. Then why are HANNITY and Bill Bennet CRYING about it right now on Fox?

eom

[Jackson4Gore]

10. Funny

It's funny how Clark all week has been criticizing John Kerry's serivce. Kerry who was a hero and was injured in WAR, is the one who should be honored, not criticized. But then Clark is asked about Bush's service and he is sheepish. I was very dissappointed. Very hipocritical.

[Clark Can WIN]

19. Get your facts straight son

Clark has been praising Kerry all week and calling him a Hero and saying that he deserves all of our respect so get that straight first.

Clark's strategy is very sharp in this. Let Moore take the heat and stay above the fray.

Before you lob something like hypocritical you should at least attempt to back it up with a factual explanation.

[snyttri]

20. Actually, Clark has instead praised Kerry's service. He has drawn a

distinstion between negotiatitaing treaties and leading NATO and heroism in battle, which they shate.

The debate was obviously no place to go into the complicated details of the Bush's attendance records.

[Jackson4Gore]

27. Explain this

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040122012532.nc5ghydo.html

Clark: "I have the military leadership he has not," said Clark after learning of Kerry's unexpectedly strong win in the Iowa caucuses. "He was a lieutenant in the Navy and I was a four-star general in the Army."

At another point he referred to Kerry as "a junior officer in Vietnam."

How is that not criticizing Kerry's service?

[funky_bug]

34. Look up military ranks

"At another point he referred to Kerry as "a junior officer in Vietnam.""

Junior officer is a title - if you ask anyone in the military, they will tell you flat out that is not an insult. It's a high ranking title.

[BeyondGeography]

31. False statement

Clark never criticized Kerry's service. In fact, he complimented him on it last night to clear up any misconceptions.

Pay attention.

[TLM]

54. What does it say about Clark that he's go after Kerry's service

and yet won;t go after Bush service?


I think that's just despicable.

[Clark Can WIN]

74. What does it say that you have obviously read that he praised Kerry as a

HERO and yet you continue with this disingenuous line? It tells me that you're hatred is so blind you refuse the truth.

[mikehiggins]

77. Wow! Was that supposed to be a newsflash?

You know this guy is a persistent critic and has been for some time.

There is nothing you can say to change his mind or alter his view.

[Bertrand]

75. Bumper Sticker Rhetoric

Clark didnt "go after" Kerrys service record, unless calling him a hero is in some way a negative, but contrasted that while both of them were junior officers during vietnam, by him staying in the military and rising through the ranks to achieve major executive leadership positions gives him a unique position on Foreign Policy Cred, in his opinion.

[mikehiggins]

72. You want to back up that claim, dems?

Where and when has Clark criticised Kerry's service?

He did get in a shoving match with Bob Dole after the SOTU, and he did mention Kerry's being a "junior officer" somewhere else.

Then he corrected the opening speaker at a Town Hall meeting, saying that he has respect for Kerry for what he did in Viet Nam and that they BOTH were junior officers at the time.

[Guaranteed]

96. Also, did you know that Clark was also injured in a war?

I believe that it was also in Vietnam. Took four? bullets...

I'm a Dean supporter...but, just for the record.

[Tom Rinaldo]

7. Clark's getting attacked by the media for not defending Bush on that.

It's being called by some an example of Clark not being ready for prime time that he did NOT disavow Moore's comments. I agreed that Clark did not join Moore in attacking Bush on it. He said Moore has every right to state his opinion on Bush deserting, and Clark added that he had heard of that claim from other sources also but had not personally looked into it. From there he shifted to the present and the issue of Bush being unsuited to lead our nation now.

[Woodstock]

32. Good for Clark!

Sounds like he answered it quite well.

[BeyondGeography]

8. Problem with your analysis:

Bush DID go AWOL. This whole flap will re-open the question. Bush is the loser here, not Clark.

[quaker bill]

11. I agree, but

I just think Clark didn't want to be Deaned in the media over the next few days on this.

That was my point on Pitt's Dean Speech thread the other night. The sort of media pile on committed on Dean this last week has a chilling effect on political rhetoric. No one wanted to give up that 30 second sound bite that would be run over and over for the next 3 or 4 days.

Accordingly, they all stayed with pretty safe answers.

[Terwilliger]

48. Its one more demonstration to middle america

that Democrats wont stand up for what they believe in

[Cheswick2.0]

95. It's a sign that Clark will not stand up for what he says he believes in

!

[Walt Starr]

12. There is a beautiful side to it

It's out there now and if Clark is piled on over it, they have to report the allegations.

It will now gain traction. Sadly for Clark, though, this could be his death nail in New Hampshire.

[Clark Can WIN]

21. New Hampshire democrats are very liberal, this will HELP him not

hurt him. They are more likely to agree with Clark and Moore.

Faux can spin that top as hard as they want. I welcome it.

[bicentennial_baby]

35. Dude Where's My Country? Ranked #7 on Amazon in NH

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/219926/103-8972957-9796622

[funky_bug]

39. Well slap me sillyl

I agree with you on one point - If Clark gets hung out to dry on this one, it will only be because of the media attention his comments made... and that will force the issue back into public scrutiny AND media scrutiny.

And as much as I love Wes, if it take him losing in NH to do that, then his bid for presidency served it's highest purpose. Discredit Bush the Lesser and make the way for real leadership.

[Maddy McCall]

44. New Hampshire is NOT the end game...

Clark has broader vision. Can you imagine how it would play down South or in some of the conservative states in the west if he would have said, "Yeah, he's a deserter."

Clark's strength will be the regions I mentioned above. He is playing for the whole deck, not just one card.

Clinton didn't win NH in 92, and I really don't think Clark will either. However, let's talk about this after SC and Southern Tuesday.

:-)

[Guaranteed]

97. Wow....sounds like you're a chess player...

Are you talking about sacrificing Wes Clark's candidacy to gain ground on Bush? MAN...that's serious shit!! ;)

[Maddy McCall]

41. You obviously did not see his meeting with VFW vets the other day

He did the right thing.

[snyttri]

14. Bush's Guard records are missing. You want to get into a discussion of

that in a bell-ringing debate?

An extremely unreasonable expectation.

[John_H]

15. Where's the link with your guy bringing it up.

[TLM]

64. As usual...change the subject to Dean...

Dean supporters biggest meme about him has not been that he'll be able to hammer Bush over the AWOL issue... that HAS been the biggest meme Clark supporters have been pushing.


And Clark made it clear tonight that he won't use that attack on Bush. Instead he'll hang supporters like Moore out to dry rather than take the risk of telling the truth about Bush.

Clark will pull rank on Kerry, but won't talk about Bush being AWOL.

[Bertrand]

76. Well, im discussing it so dont ignore my posts.

[kentuck]

16. This discussion is just getting started....

This will be the issue that is talked about tomorrow....aong with Dean's rebel yell...

[thalerd]

23. Funny ...

Hannity was just on chewing Clark out for not jumping to Bush's defense.

This whole thing is ridiculous.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. Clark will take that to the chimp

ONE on ONE. NOT Michael Moore against Peter Jennings against Clark. The Chimp...ONE on ONE!

[funky_bug]

26. I respectfully disagree

Clark can charge Bush the Lesser on a lot of stuff... but ya can't go makin' unsubstantiated claims in a debate. That hot-head approach won't work in NH, or elsewhere, I suspect.

He did the right thing, in my humble opinion. Like Edwards said, stick to the platform, the issues, and leave slanderous comments to the repukes.


By the way, I thought Dean was good tonight. I didn't care much for his comment about "500 soldiers dead b/c of the those three..." (paraphrased), but all in all, he looked very down to earth, and managed to take Al's manufactured joke and use it for his advantage.

Congrats on a good debate... well, as good as one can expect, given a panel of ass-clowns.

[Maddy McCall]

30. TLM, you make it quite obvious that you are NOT a poker player

He's holding his cards close to his chest. Just wait until he faces Bush next fall. Let's see then.

[Terwilliger]

47. maybe he should let Moore in on the hand, then

especially when Clark plays-up the Moore endorsement

[Maddy McCall]

53. He did. Don't you understand the purpose of endorsements???

Go look at Moore's statement on his website.

They tried to bring down Clark because MOOORE made that statement. If they have a problem with Moore's statement, they should take it to Moore. Have you read Moore's website? He is defending his statement, as well he should.

Endorsements don't mean that the candidate endorses all of the endorser's opinions; it means quite the opposite.

Clark will be able to play the AWOL card...he knows that he can't play it BEFORE South Carolina and Southern Tuesday, though.

At least he HAS that card in his deck, unlike other unnamed candidates. :-)

[Clark Can WIN]

60. " unlike other unnamed candidates. :-)"

*high five*

I guess some people think that accepting an endorsement means you must at all times parrot the person who endorsed you.

some candidates would have to change alot of their positions if that were true, like say on IWR and NCLB, among others.

[Terwilliger]

71. OH come ON!!

The question was legitimate...if Moore believed this way, did Clark? Clark didnt answer.

[mikehiggins]

82. OH come ON!! indeed

"The question was legitimate..."

Are you serious?

The question was a trap and Clark neglected to step into it.

Doesn't anyone around here know how to play this game?

[Terwilliger]

90. I do...Clark is untrustworthy

and his response tonight proves it

[Clark Can WIN]

57. Telling Jennings that Moore is entitled to express himself and others

share his view sounds pretty good to me. Sorry there's no hay for you here.

[Terwilliger]

73. hay...you lost the AWOL issue

nice work

[mikehiggins]

81. Maybe he did, Ter

Did it sound to you like Clark was taken by surprise by the question?

Maybe this is Clark's equivalent of the Dennis/Edwards deal.

Maybe Mike Moore wants to be the ravaging beast in this campaign.

Not that something like that would suit his personality.

Honest. Some of you folks really don't get anything, do you? As soon as Moore opened that door the other day it should have been obvious that Clark was going to get boinked with it.

[Terwilliger]

89. did it sound like he was taken by surprise?

it sounded like he had a practiced response to that question, yeah

[TLM]

59. I am a poker player and Clark just folded the best card he had.

[Clark Can WIN]

62. I've never played poker

with just one card before.:silly:

[Maddy McCall]

67. Ahhh...but this game goes on for more than one night.

And let me point out that Jennings framed the question. He asked about Bush being a "deserter." Clark will be able to illuminate Bush's record, but he needs to wait until Southern Tuesday has passed and until he is the Dem nominee.

[mikehiggins]

84. If that's the way you play poker I suggest you put everything in your

wife's name.

And politics isn't anything like poker anyway.

That card you're worried about is tucked up in Clark's sleeve.

[TLM]

91. No, it's not...that the point. Clark just threw it away.

Clark had the card and he blew it... now if he tries to go back to it he looks inconsistent and dishonest and Bush can easily spin it off as Clark being desperate and trying to use attacks he once had the integrity to disavow.

Clark just shot himself in the foot.

[HFishbine]

69. Gotta keep a chip or two in your pocket.

Whether Clark wasn't sure how to proceed, or if he was purposely holdding back, it's best that he didn't play his hand yet. It's out there. It will be back. It will gain momentum. Clark doesn't need to be some crazy disrespectful general at this point.

If he wins the nomination, calling Bush on his service record face to face would be the winning hand.

[Clark Can WIN]

78. Exactly HFishbine, and Thank You

once again, this means so much coming from you. I thoght Clark played it perfectly at this point. Saying that he "hadn't looked into it yet" was sublime. It leaves it open and out there. Ready to attack later.

[dad]

86. Please god dammit gimme a dem with a spine

Clark, you are such a pussy!

[Maddy McCall]

80. Yup. Thanks HF

You hit the nail on the head.

:)

[cinci]

79. I'm sure

being awol is desertion, with a possible penalty of death during wartime.

[TomNickell]

85. Clark made the smart move....

Didn't disavow the charge, or say it was false. Just left it out there.

The nominee should look dignified and Presidential.

Michael Moore (and leftish activists) should force the media to deal with issues such as this.

[Cheswick2.0]

93. he wont go after bush at all

I can't see him ever doing it.

[corporatewhore]

94. well i know some vets who would want to vote for jk or wc just becuase

they want to see the cannidates as veterans take on bush over awolissues

[Bolo Boffin]

99. Some possibilities that aren't being considered.

There are other reasons why Clark may not be gung-ho on Bush's TANG years. If a four star general isn't chewing Lt. Bush for his desertion, perhaps there's more there than meets the eye.

Two main things:

1. There may be less to the Bush AWOL meme than you realize.

There are a few mitigating factors in Bush's case that aren't mentioned a lot on our side of the discussion. I don't believe it explains everything and there are plenty of questions about Bush's TANG service that remain to be answered. But in the interest of being prepared to discuss this issue with other people besides ourselves, we should consider a few things.

First, the Army doesn't throw the book at Guardsmen the way they do active duty personnel. They just don't. Guardsmen get more chances to make up time missed. They don't and shouldn't get off scotfree, but the points can be accumulated and a Guardsman can still land an honorable discharge, as Bush did. I think Bush's record has some good evidence for Bush getting a couple of right royal as*chewings during his last couple of years, but he had to seriously abuse the system before they occured.

Second, Bush has some very good things in his Guardsman record. His first three years of attendance were exemplary - he went above and beyond what was required of him. Despite his low piloting exam score, he did manage to learn to fly the F-102, and fighter jets are not an easy thing to master. Furthermore, the battalion he volunteered for when joining the Guard was seeing action in Vietnam, using exactly the plane he signed up to fly. Yes, he initially marked that he did NOT volunteer for overseas service when joining, but after he graduated from flight school, he DID volunteer to fly a three month tour in Vietnam. Yes, he didn't have the hours required to qualify for the duty, but he did sign the paper, and there's no way in hell Bush had any idea he'd be running for president then. He volunteered to put himself in harm's way during a war - not the action of your ordinary deserter.

Nonetheless, his last two years are the real ones in question. There's no doubt that Bush wrote off the Guard early in 1972. Just understand that there are two sides to this story.

Third, lack of paperwork in Bush's record and inadequate record keeping might not be his fault. Paperwork in the Army is a constant nightmare, and is continually screwed up. Can I hear an amen on that from people in the service?

2. Clark can't have seen all the facts in the case, because no one has. Bush's military record has not been fully released to the public.

In particular, Lt. Bush grounded himself by not taking the annual physical for pilots. There is no excuse for this behavior and there should have been a Flight Inquiry Board convened to examine the matter. If not, why not? If so, where are the records? Those kind of records don't get lost.

By maintaining a cool head, Clark can keep the question open while his example stands in contrast to Bush's. The issue will rise to the front as the campaign continues and the general advances. But don't think a whitewash is happening if Bush's service record isn't the blot we feel it to be.

[Room101]

101. I'm very disapointed in CLARK!

FYI – I’m a Clark fan and did not see the debate, so this is all second hand.

He should have diplomatically alluded to him being AWOL and how he lacks the perspective on actually being in war.

[exJW]

102. Bush wasn't AWOL....

And Clark can't afford to be sloppy enough with (especially) military language to say he was AWOL.

Meanwhile, the debate format would not have allowed for the nuanced truth of the matter (which is not: BUSH AWOL).

Further, the whole truth of the matter is to this day rather obscure.

So, TLM, don't ever get into politics, cuz you suck at this stuff ;-)

[isbister]

103. bush was AWOL

But the term Jennings used, deserter isn't one that can be stuck on bush now because 1) he did return and 2) it is difficult to prove now, so many years later, that he did not have the intent to return.

[0rganism]

105. Really? when did * report between May 1972 and May 1973?

Bush owed 36 days service during that time. Where are they?

[incapsulated]

104. They are already attacking him for not "disavowing" Moore

Can you imagine what they would do to him if he went any farther?

One only has to look at what one "yeehaw" did to Dean, to understand the correctness of his response.

As others have said, this isn't the issue to run on now. The media have already danced around this story and declared it for Bush, they are not going to change their mind but they will crucify any candidate who is stupid enough to make it an issue.

We have bigger and better issues to beat Bush on, issues that matter to ordinary voters, not DU members. Let Moore take care of this one.

[Piperay]

106. I also say

:wtf:....Clark handled the issue PERFECTLY. Clark did not disavow Moore, neither did he defend chimp. That assh*le Jennings wanted Clark to be forced into defending Moore and having to call chimp a deserter, Clark didn't play that game. This debate wasn't the proper time for this kind of question, this debate was between the Democrats. When Clark gets the nomination and debates the chimp, that will be the time to throw out the 'AWOL card'.

Also I believe Jennings used the word 'DESERTER'. I don't know myself but there could be a difference legally between AWOL and 'DESERTER', so care should be used.

[oasis]

107. And the answer is: Great strategy by Clark. (eom)

[JNelson6563]

108. I thought that answer was certainly a missed

opportunity. Went soft in the end.

Reminds me of Kerry, the BFEE expert "not knowing" the boy king would "fuck up" the Iraq thing.

Ouch.

Julie