How is Dean "outsider", "anti-corporate" and "anti-DLC"?

[jpgray]

Those of you who think Dean is an outsider, not beholden to corporations or party insiders, what are you basing that on? He had private meetings with big contributors in VT, he has dozens of insider endorsements that he regularly touts, he has the most money, he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, he wants to 'change'--not repeal--NAFTA, the WTO and the Patriot Act, he supported Biden/Lugar and the unilateral option, he wants 'more research' on medicinal marijuana, he's reconsidering repealing the tax cuts while still promising to pay for universal healthcare, he will keep the Pentagon budget exactly where it is, and he has a "I didn't care while in office, but trust me, I do now!" position on the environment.

I support Howard Dean. For my money (the same $250 I gave to each of my faves), he's one of the best three candidates in the race. But I am so tired of hearing that Dean represents some outsider movement beyond corporate Dems and insider politicians, and therefore he deserves a vote and the others don't. What evidence in his positions or his record do you have for that assumption?

Is it just the movement that makes people say this? Is it Dean's personality? I can't see it anywhere in the issues. On the issues he basically resembles, well, John Kerry, who is paradoxically seen as some DLC corporatist demon despite having one of the most liberal records in the Senate. :crazy:

The ONLY outsider candidate I can see is Dennis Kucinich ('nother favorite of mine), and it pisses me off that he gets the shaft while various people bemoan that Dean is being sabotaged by the SAME PARTY INSIDERS that have consistently endorsed him and who have nearly the exact same positions on the issues that he does. So what gives?

Help me understand!

[displacedtexan]

1. You can't take the Dean out of Dean/Witter .

But that image doesn't play well these days.
Dean seems to have a good heart; he's just got to be too many things to too many people.

[w4rma]

18. Heh, that's Dean Witter. "Witter" is the last name. "Dean" is the first.

Howard Dean and Dean Witter aren't related.

[gWbush is Mabus]

2. see below

#1. he was not in the senate or house
#2. the DLC was actively campaigning against him

[jpgray]

3. So it is a movement thing

I'm more of an record & issue voter, myself.

[cthrumatrix]

4. oh my god...people taking the country back with issues, passion and

a vibrant base not bought by coprorations and media....run..run.run..

[w13rd0]

6. I guess this mornings "unity" movement...

...didn't last long.

PFFT! Extra clown points for a complete waste of bandwidth.

[jpgray]

7. Okay, but please read my post next time (nt)

[w13rd0]

14. I read your post...

...thus, my comment about a waste of bandwidth and time. The Dean family doesn't focus on materialism, I like that. They are genuine, real people. He has a record of accomplishment, and has been quite consistent in his opposition to what Bush is doing to this nation. At one point in time, I might have agreed with the DLC on a great many things as well, but no longer, Al From is whining in the wilderness.

[sandnsea]

8. Yes, it's a movement thing

People believe something is happening. And they make it whatever they want it to be individually.

And I'm kind of a record and policy person too. Which is why I'm for John Kerry. His record is 10 times that of Howard Dean's. Although I can understand why anybody would be for Kucinch as well. His record leaves no doubt where he stands either.

[cthrumatrix]

11. dribble...complete dribble by another dean basher...i'm shocked

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. All those endoresments turned him inside/outside and back inside.

In otherwords- they muddy his image and his message. He keeps attacking the Washington establishment at the same time that they are all standing next to him on the same stage.
And of course there were the consistency problems with the issues.

[Jacobin]

9. Is this like, the shot to finish him off?

Wouldn't it be more gratifying to those attempting to finish Dean to let him writhe around a bit longer?

Jiminy cricket. So, is like KERRY an anti-corporatist outsider, or who gets your support for the list you have in your post?

[jpgray]

10. I support Kerry and Dean, but they are both corporatist insiders

If I went with my heart, it would be Kucinich. But Dean and Kerry are *probably* the best candidates overall, issues and electability-wise.

[cthrumatrix]

12. message from rove--- dean has awoke --- smear smear....

[jpgray]

13. If you think I am wrong, please feel free to respond to my post (nt)

[NashVegas]

15. He's On the Record About FCC Ownership Rules

That's #1.

#2 you may have picked up on in the Diane Sawyer interview, where the Deans professed to be rather unmaterialist and non-TV watchers.

Our corporate masters want us to be good little materialist consumers. Not only do the Deans set a bad example, but they also watch little TV, corporate America's favorite tool for getting us to BUY BUY BUY.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

16. He's not but his fans are

That's the way it happened, for whatever reason.

[bread_and_roses]

17. He's not

which is my problem with him. He's not, and the best campaign in the world, and even great supporters can't make a silk purse out of him. I admire his campaign. I admire his outspokeness on Iraq. But his record on too many issues is weak, as noted on the post starting this thread. I particularly mistrust him on any issues to do with poverty and racism.

Then, of course, we have Kerry saying things like it was right to go after Saddam, whatever that means. Nonetheless, as also noted in these posts, he has a far better over-all record than DK.

What's a body to do? The candidate with a truely principled and Progressive record is DK, whom everyone says is unelectable. Well, if he is unelectable, I blame the mealy-mouthed Democratic Party. DK stands for what the Democrats used to stand for.

Personally, I'd like to see a DK/Sharpton ticket...DK for policy and principle, Sharpton for Diversity, wit, and general pricking of pompous pontificators.

And if that ain't happening, and I have to compromise, Dean is not my candidate.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

19. Your points stand... and I agree with them..

No one has refuted any of your points yet.

This is why I am not a Dean supporter. The campaign is amazing and something to be applauded. However projecting one's views upon Dean does not make it reality.

Dean has a very centrist(right of center at times) record and stated position on many issues. Just because the DLC doesn't actively support Dean does not make him a liberal saviour. He is very much a corporatist Dem. NAFTA? Patriot Act? Keeping the profit in health care? Pro death penalty? Pro illegal Iraq occupation? Supporting a resolution that still would have led to Bush's war? Wanting to balance the budget without cutting the military spending?

Someone please explain to me how those and other issues represent a contrast to DLC Dems or corporatism?

TWL

[Demo Gog]

20. I don't think he is...

And that's why I like him. Of course I know I'm not a liberal now in the eyes of many :eyes: