Did Dean's supporters cost him Iowa?

[ringmastery]

Were they too enthusiastic knocking on doors, sending letters, calling people out of the blue, stating their case at the caucuses, to the point of turning off and annoying Iowa voters?

[Frances]

1. I have no idea

But I think the fact that Kerry saved the lives of two men in Ohio who were in his unit in Vietnam may have mobilized the veterans.

However, I think all Democrats, including Kerry, owe Dean a big thank you. Dean spoke out very forcefully when no one else was doing so. That made it easier for other Democrats to start hitting Bush.

I should make it clear that I am ABB.

[EXE619K]

2. I'm not sure....

It's probably the combination of many factors.

Although, it would be prudent to take those nose rings out before pounding on the doors....

[liberalnurse]

3. We scared the piss out of *bush....

The media got their orders to attack......I just posted the entire video of the pep speech. The information that fits the scene.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. I think Dean himself had a lot to do with it

probably 99% of it.

[oasis]

11. But.. but he "spoke from the heart" in '96 when he bashed the Iowa caucus.

Osama IS innocent until proven guilty. Saddam's capture doesn't make us safer. And he spoke from the heart when he told that old geezer to "sit down" because Bush really isn't Howard's neighbor. Yes, he blew it. Big time.

I salute his campaign volunteers who worked so hard under adverse weather conditions for a cause they believed in.

[Eric J in MN]

19. If you were being heckled, you wouldn't tell the heckler to sit down? nt

nt

[lurk_no_more]

31. I probably would've just started

singing the National Anthem.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[oasis]

37. I've no problem with any of Dean's "missteps". He's not savvy enough to

adjust to situations that would serve him politically. He's too green for the national spotlight. That doesn't make him a bad person, but it won't make him president either.

[Kathleen04]

5. Grassroots overdose?

Nah, I don't think that's what happened.

[frustrated_lefty]

6. That's kind of an ugly question.

Using your word, can there be too much "enthusiasm" in pursuing democracy?

It might be fair to ask, were Dean supporters young and lacking in nuance or subtlety...you may have a point, you may not.

But "were they too enthusiastic?"

3,500 people, mostly young, turn out to participate in democracy, and you want to intimate they're to blame? And we expect people to participate in the face of that, their first introduction to democracy?

How in gods name can you blame people who suddenly care about democracy, or imply they did something wrong. Sir, I truly feel you owe these people a sincere apology, they have served their nation, they have tried to make it better. Implying they did worse is an insult.

[foo_bar]

8. it wasn't a question of morality

the poster questioned whether there's such a thing as pushing too hard. Jehovah's Witnesses do it all the time...

[frustrated_lefty]

20. Fair enough,

but I rarely see anyone asking "did Jehovah's Witnesses" turn you away from god.

Latest Update on CNN, Jehovah's Witnesses in Florida canvassed all of Florida, and Florida has determined God is angry, unpresidential.

10 minutes later..

CNN...."Is god unpresidential? Florida may think so, see our latest update..

Sarcasm aside, I'm bothered by the accusation. Hate him, love him, Dean has drawn young people into the party. It sucks they vote for Kerry, but Dean drew them into the fold. The question in the original post tries to pass the blame onto these young supporters. and hypothesizes that their enthusiasm may be to blame for their candidates fall. That's tactless. And it's a shitty welcome to new voters.

The poster could have easily asked "how did new dems fit into Dean's campaign" without accusing them of the recent events.

Maybe I'm wrong. I think the original post was tactless and insulting. It's my opinion only.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

25. Interesting parallel you draw there

I'm glad I didn't make it.

[HereSince1628]

7. My understanding from the few friends I have in Iowa is

they think it was a murder/suicude between Gephardt and Dean.
Both went negative, both got burned for doing it.

I'd admit that's anecdotal.

[kayleybeth]

9. I heard that theory on one of the talk shows tonight

The McLaughlin Group I think (?). Whichever show it was, one of the guests said that Iowans didn't appreciate "all of those kids" taking over their state and telling them who to vote for.

I don't know if that's true or not. I wasn't there. My own belief is that it had more to do with Dean's negative campaigning and with the voters' perceptions of his electability. Just a guess though. Like I said, I wasn't there.

[Valjean]

27. Comment on Real Time

Take that ring out of your nose and the barb out of your tongue. People seriously have to be sensitive to local culture when they campaign. That would be like showing up on Castro street in a three piece suit ;-)

[benddem]

10. I was in Iowa

Am not sure what the other candidates were doing, but do know the citizens I spoke to were a bit upset about the number of phone calls and the amount of literature they were receiving.
But the Gephardt commercial accusing Dean of Wanting to destroy Medicare and Social Security were the real downers.
Kerry really moved out when his buddies from Nam showed up. I keep wondering if the Dean campaign can't pull out some patients he has saved????
Most of the people who supported Edwards were just talking about his charm. It was incredible. This guy voted to allow factory Hog farms, something that Iowan's hate...but they liked Edwards. They didn't know anything about him, but that he was a "nice guy."

[AP]

13. You know, that's interesting. Where are his patients?

Kerry has his Vietnam buddies. Edwards tells us about his clients in Four Trials (and they did commercials for him in and talked to the media in '98).

Does anyone know anything about Dean's patients?

[arewethereyet]

17. he hasn't really practiced medicine for years

would not be very germain anyway.

[frustrated_lefty]

32. AP

Despite your Edwards as Christ sig, I'll consider the possibility you are asking a genuine question. IF he was a bad doctor, there would have been a lawsuit brewing by now.

Patients do not sit still , unless it's a tobacco settlement or the equivalent.

Dean is clean here. And I won't bash Edwards for this. He's a nice guy, he proposes good thing, as do all the dem leaders.

Of course, Bush pretends to be Christ, maybe you mean to intend that Edwards is facing Bush? Could you expound upon your thoughts?

[beaconess]

34. No one claimed that Dean was a bad doctor!

And where do you get the "Edwards as Christ" from that sig?

Jeez!

[AP]

35. Statute of limitations on med neg almost definitely would have passed

for all claims (it's probably 3-5 years from time you could reasonably discover the problem, with an outside limit of 10, 15, 20 years or something like that). So the problem isn't that there'd be a suit brewing.

I just wonder why you don't hear from former patients who thought he was, well, christ, or god, or whatever, as a doctor.

[AP]

12. Are you basing that theory on DU?

?

[candy331]

16. The answer is the same as

what happened with Arnold someone camein and stole the show as he did. When anyone can definitively show why people voted for Arnold then we might have our answer here. Actually I think the vote in Iowa was a backlash not so much against negative ads but a we will do what we want and we'll show you,I don't think it was about Kerry/Edwards, they just benefited from the backlash

[arewethereyet]

14. I posted about trucked in support and got reamed

it is the anthesis of grass roots to have to resort to this.

I know how I would react. Iowa seems to agree with me on this.

[dreissig]

15. Anomalous Rules Produce Anomalous Results

Iowa shows what happens when you use a defective measuring tool. When your radar gun clocks pine trees at 35 mph, get it re-calibrated.

The Iowa rules produce anomalous results. Kerry and Edwards were nowhere before Iowa, and I predict that despite the boost Iowa gave them, they'll go back to being nowhere.

[emulatorloo]

22. Kerry and Edwards ran great campaigns in Iowa

They worked really hard, I am in Iowa, I saw the crowds and people were touched inspired and rallied by Kerry and Edwards. They aren't going anywhere because they are doing the same thing in New Hampshire.

As far as Dean supporters costing him, I didn't see them as a problem. All anecdotal of course.

ON edit; added stuff

[Paragon]

18. Did Edwards' supporters cost him Iowa?

Did Gephardt's supporters cost him Iowa?
Did Lieberman's supporters cost him Iowa?
Did Kucinich's supporters cost him Iowa?
Did Sharpton's supporters cost him Iowa?
Did Clark's supporters cost him Iowa?

[AP]

29. Donna Brazille said "Edwards was running on fumes" and "he had nothing on

the ground" which was why she was so imnpressed with his showing.

[bigwillq]

21. As a Dean supporter,

I think Dean and his core staff are to blame. His supporters are doing only what they think aer right to help him win.I think Dean went to neg with some of the ads and didn't how how to defend himself when they started bashing him and I'm a Dean supporter.

[beaconess]

23. I've talked to numerous people who participated in the caucuses

and they felt that many of the Dean people they encountered were obnoxious, rude and condescending and seemed to much prefer interacting with and shoring up one another than reaching out to voters. The problem wasn't that the were too enthusiastic, but that many of them behaved like spoiled brats on a weekend road trip who had no clue how to attract and influence voters or build up the kind of grassroots network so important to delivering votes for a candidate.

The result was that the vast majority of votes that Dean got were from his hardcore fans while the other candidates - particularly Edwards and Kerry - also attracted votes from other candidates who didn't meet the viability threshold. Kerry and Edwards, on the other hand, were most voters' second choice, which paid off when other candidates weren't viable. Voters were so turned off from Dean that he was hardly anyone's second choice.

Admittedly, this is anecdotal, but I heard this from enough people to believe it had some merit. And, frankly, given the behavior of some Dean supporters in this forum, I have no reason to doubt their experiences.

[IowaBiker]

36. I'll agree, but ...

Yes, a lot of young people did rub a few people the wrong way.

But, it's good to see them out in the trenches fighting for their ideals. Some brashness and indiscretion from them is natural. Altough Iowans I think are less tolerant of that stuff from young people.

I do think than once John Kerry got out and started speaking with people that he made a very good impression.

Before hearing him in person, I could see where some of the criticisms were coming from about him being wooden. But after hearing him in person a few times, he seems very engaging, keen on the issues, and Presidential.

Plus, I have to say his people out of the Boston area are a lot of fun. Good folks, seem real nice.

The party has a number of good candidates right now. Best group of viable candidates in years. A lot of good, dedicated folks. That makes it hard to read a lot of the bickering in here.

--Brian

[Feanorcurufinwe]

24. The polls indicate the voters in NH are getting sick of the Dean campaign

as well.

[goodhue]

26. don't think so

but they may not have helped much
too much arrogance & not enough enthusiasm

[diamondsoul]

33. Off topic-

your sig pic. It never occurred to me to wonder whether Dennis' father was a company driver or an owner operator. Duh, with the size of his family there's no way he could have owned a rig!

Well it also never crossed my mind he'd have driven for a company I'm semi-familiar with- to the extent that my hubby flat refuses to even speak to their hiring department for some reason. Totally meaningless, but it's just another one of those odd little things that makes me feel very familiar with Dennis Kucinich.

[Lady President]

28. Could be a factor

I know I'm in the minority, but I think the Dean supporters could have inadvertently contributed to him not meeting his early expectations. There are a couple reason I think this:

1. I was told several days ago to organize my volunteers to send emails and make calls for primaries after NH. Apparently the NH voters are getting a little tired of so many calls. I think the vast number of polls are adding to the problem. On CNN they joked that everyone in NH ends up answering polling questions a couple times a day. Iowa is a much larger state, so I don't know if they experienced the door knocking overdose that's happening in NH.

2. Dean has attracted many supporters who are active in a political campaign for the first time. Some of these supporter are bound to be a little rough around the edges. It takes practice to read someone on the phone or at a front door. However, the majority of Iowan have been through this before and know that a 20 yr. old is doing the best they can. Most won't hold it against a candidate. A few will, but what can you do?

Bottom line is there may have been problems with some overzealous supporters acting on their own. It might have effected Iowa negatively, but there's no such thing as having too many supporter in the coming weeks.

[buckeye1]

30. What ever it was,

it failed. I was very surprised. Dean seemed to have everything. Money,muscle and message. All the polls and the "experts" said so. Me too.

I am still uncommitted. Kerry looked ok but his campaign sucked. Edwards showing? Search me. And Gep,that is real humiliation. Oh well that's politics.

At this point I think anything might happen. It will be interesting.