Kerry and Viet Nam

[mikehiggins]

I'm sorry that this has gotten under my skin like this. I've talked about it on various threads but its really important, at least to me as a dyed-in-the-wool ABB guy. I will support Kerry if he gets nominated but I think nominating him will be suicide, and here's why:

Immediately after Kerry is confirmed as the Democratic nominee, the GOP prints up millions of postcards showing him with Jane Fonda and captioned "while American soldiers and pilots like John McCain and John Eagleton were being tortured in Viet Cong prisons, John Kerry was living the high life with commie supporter Jane Fonda"

They hire buses full of VietNam era vets to follow him around from state to state with signs calling him a traitor.

And then we argue national security?

Just how stupid are we?

Why do you think Kerry doesn't want to touch the Bush AWOL accusations with a ten foot pole? Why do you think he agrees with Novak that Moore and Clark went over the top with that statement?

Kerry went on Crossfire tonight and told Gabble-er that "everybody" agrees that they won't go into that stuff they did as kids? What kind of total moron could even think that possible? Isn't Kerry bragging about what he did as a soldier? Isn't he trotting out his old buddies to testify about what a great and brave man he is?

Don't you think thousands of VietNam veterans are foaming at the mouth at the thought of him running for the Presidency?

Kerry is a master of negative campaigning. Just what does he think the Bush White House will do if there is a possibility of his getting elected?

This didn't seem to have mattered that much before 9/11, which may be why people aren't thinking about it too much. Hell, Clinton was clearly anti-VietNam and he got elected. Twice. Now, though, we've suffered a major attack on American soil. In the minds of the American people there's a war on.

Kerry will be labeled a traitor, for Pete's sake. Who do you think is going to give a shit that Dubya drank his way out of the national guard?

Look at who we're running against. See any glint of human decency over there? Any shame? Any conscience? Can you doubt for a second that this isn't exactly what is going to happen if Kerry gets the nomination?

Kerry is certain death for the Democratic party if he gets nominated.

Simple as that.

[liberalmike27]

1. I agree

Sounds about right to me. I doubt they will worry if they are real Vietnam vets, they will just hire some folks that look like them. The Bushies are a Machiavellian bunch, they will do anything to stay, just a little bit longer.

After the media setting about, and destroying Dean, I expect that any Democrat will meet the same fate once he gets the nomination, expect them to be "Gored."

[Frances]

3. Unfortunately you are right that the media will

"Gore" the Democratic candidate. That's why I think it will be good to keep the media guessing who the candidate will be for as long as possible.

[lastknowngood]

2. It'll be so easy it won't

even be sporting. I figure him to be a 48 state loser with him taking only N.Y. and maybe Mass.

[poopyjr]

5. You don't know presidential politics very well.

This is a different electorate. The '84 and '72 comparisons are off base. Bush isn't Reagan and he isn't Nixon, and this is a different electorate.

[JohnKleeb]

7. What I wanna know is how Kerry will lose to Bush in DC

Kerry can win.

[Jacobin]

9. DC isn't a state.

[JohnKleeb]

17. It has electoral votes

thats what I meant my mistake.

[mikehiggins]

35. Oh, I think I know presidential politics quite well and

this is a presidential election taking place with a strong military issue at hand.

In September the GOP is going to hold its convention in NYC and a visit to Ground Zero is sure to be a big part of it.

So will be the massive demonstrations in the street.

Comparisons to Chicago and Kent State will be all over the news.

Bush will walk into the White House for a second term.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. You're right. This is a card they have to play from their hand.

But Kerry holds much stronger cards to play against it. If they want to talk about what they were doing 35 years ago then so be it.
AWOL will come up a card short.

[mikehiggins]

36. They won't be talking about what THEY were doing

they will be talking about what Kerry was doing. And what he was doing was visible, influential and NOT forgotten.

This wouldn't have mattered if the World Trade Center was still standing but it isn't and so it does matter again.

[KittyWampus]

6. Kerry Will Sink In The South

and places like AZ that have lots of CURRENT military.

That book WILL do damage.

[poopyjr]

11. But a Clinton general who's gung ho on gay marriage will do well?

[mikehiggins]

38. Check the data, poopy

The right wing just dropped the idea of presenting a poll to congress that backed up their anti-gay marriage position.

The reason? Too many people supported gay marriage.

The righties claimed gay groups skewed the results but other, legit polls are saying the same thing.

Of course Clark will get hit on that, so will Dean and the others.

Only Kerry can be labeled a traitor, though, with any hope of making it stick.

[Maddy McCall]

39. Yes...that's the beauty of Clark

People here see him primarily as a military man. The other stuff is just fluff.

In 2000, they saw George Bush as a "nice looking guy." Lots of people here don't feel that way anymore.

Clark can pull this off.

[aquart]

13. He was a soldier first.

He opposed the war because he was in it, saw it up close and dangerously personal, yes?

He opposed it because it was a lousy senseless way for his comrades to die, right?

And you think a vet will march against that?

Kerry EARNED the right to his opinions. The same way I will stop and listen to any conservative who actually put his body where his mouth is, because even though I disagree to the bone, it's right that I hear the view of the one who was there.

Jane Fonda was never a soldier. Never in battle. But Kerry?

I'm not voting for him in the primary, but your fears are groundless.

A soldier respects the man who was there, even without agreeing with him. Soldiers have something in common much greater than any difference. That's why soldiers on opposite sides can understand each other after the treaties are signed.

If Bush dares to trot that out, ask him every day to produce a comrade from Alabama. Go into that very Southern state and ask every man if he served with George.

[KittyWampus]

15. Kerry Disrepected The US Government ON FORIEGN Soil

Important Note:

Last night during the debate Wesley answered a question about his Times ofLondon editorial. Wes correctly pointed out that although he praised the troops and pointed out potential problems that would lay ahead in Iraq HE DID NOT DISRESPECT THE PRESIDENT WRITING FOR A FOREIGN PUBLICATION.

Find last night's transcript to get Wes's exact words.

But Wes made the point that he did NOT insult Bush while he was overseas.

Also, remember when Judy Woodruff tried to get Clark to insult Bush while he was Testifying in the Hague?

Judy played an OBVIOUS game of gotcha and Clark out did her.

Well, in Kerry's book or at least in his past days... he went to Viet Nam ala Jane Fonda to protest and denounce our Government.

You think that doesn't matter you are niave.

A Presidential Candidate is Dead in the Water if he did that.

[dreissig]

21. Kerry's Tour

John Kerry spent only three months in Vietnam. If you're calling him a grunt's grunt, soft pedal it a bit. Three months in country does not make him as grizzled and seen-it-all as you describe.

[mikehiggins]

40. He was an officer and a gentleman

and you must be talking to different vets from the ones I know.

This is a sore that has festered for decades.

You ever noticed those black flags STILL FLYING around this country?

Do you really think the majority of vets liked what Kerry did? I spent 36 years working in construction in New York City and I didn't meet any who did. I still get those notices about Jane Fonda and I was 1Y like Dean.

Are you a vet? Do you have friends that you keep in touch with? Why not talk it over with them? Maybe you'll get a different answer.

[dreissig]

73. Black Flags

Kerry headed up some kind of commission looking into the issue of the MIA's. Their conclusion was that the popularity of this issue is mostly without foundation. If it's really important to you, you might do a web search on "Kerry - MIA".

[mikehiggins]

101. Oh, come on. A commission?

Ask Ross Perot about that.

[Jacobin]

8. but but but all the Kerry supporters keep saying that the RW

will be nice and won't mention these things, and they're all fuzzy and cuddly people, once ya get ta know 'em and Kerry'll fuss back at 'em if they say anything like that....and and and

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. Actually, no, we are saying: Bring. It. On.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. Exactly.

They really don't want to go there.

[aquart]

16. NOBODY calls a man with a silver star a traitor.

I didn't know about the medals. The conversation is now ridiculous. The vets themselves will beat up anyone who attempts to imply such a thing.

A silver star and a bronze star and you think vets will march against him?

That's obscene. And so disrespectful of our veterans I am just stunned.

[dreissig]

24. Vietnam Veterans

Vietnam veterans are a motley group. You'd be surprised at the attitudes you'll hear expressed at gatherings of veterans of The War We Lost.

Kerry was an officer and he spent only three months in country. This doesn't inspire the solidarity that you describe.

[bigtree]

30. According to . . .

you.

[dreissig]

49. Well, Yes.

Yes, I'm basing this on my own observations. It's possible I'm wrong, I haven't taken a survey.

[Namvet04]

54. Your right about many of us having a lot of different views

I did several tours and was in much of the mess there. Even if Kerry was there 3 months, he was in one of the most dangerous areas to be in next to machine gunner on a chopper.

Kerry also has no generals saying they fired him as Clark does.

I would drop the viet nam issue. Get over it.

[dreissig]

68. Kerry's Problems With The Truth

Kerry seems to have issues when it comes to telling the truth. Faced with the undeniable fact that Kerry was in country only three months, his supporters inform us that those three months were extremely dangerous. It's certainly possible they were. As a good-will gesture to his crew as he was leaving, Kerry got them reassigned to easy jobs. How many O-3's have that kind of pull?

[Namvet04]

82. That is how things work in the military - all kinds of favors

Come on, you went through this with gore 4 years ago and what his father did for him. It did not hurt gore one bit.

Your beating a dead horse in thinking nam and how anyone handle it will help or hurt 40 yrs after.

[dreissig]

92. Gore's Record

I don't think Gore strutted around showing off a Silver Star. One onther difference is that we're at war now, taking casualties every day. Military honor is more important now.

Watch out for flying medals! They go over the White House fence, then they come back. Then they go over the fence again. Which is it, John? Care to clue us in?

[mikehiggins]

103. You really think this is all about political gamesmanship, don't you?

Fuck Clark. Okay?

I support Clark because I think he has the best chance of winning.

If Kerry wasn't wide open like this I'd probably support him.

But he is, and I can't.

It didn't bother me before because it looked like he didn't have a chance in hell of beating Dean. Now he does. Now he is dangerous to us and an open invitation to our enemies.

I am amazed you can't understand what I'm saying.

This is as real as crotch-rot. Ignore it and pay the price.

[mikehiggins]

100. This isn't a movie.

This is reality.

If you think the medals--that Kerry was supposed to have thrown away--will protect him from the charge, God bless you.

I will keep track of your login name and when the time comes, if Kerry is the nominee, I will email you to say I told you so.

That will probably be shortly before Ashcrofts blackshirts come and take our computers away.

The level of rhetoric is so high around here I really doubt many DUers actually understand what we are facing. It's like talking to people who relate everything to Grand Theft Auto.

Amazing.

[KittyWampus]

18. You. Are. Joking. Kerry Chickened Out Today On Crossfire.

It was sad and pathetic.... and Begala and Novac SET KERRY UP.

Kerry is now on record having said IT WAS OVER THE TOP TO CALL BUSH A DESERTER.

And he was AT A FUNCTION where Bob Kerrey said essentially THE SAME THING.

Kerry is so SCREWED.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

50. You know what it means when

two things are 'essentially' the same?

It means they are 'actually' different.

lol

[bicentennial_baby]

26. Not according to Senator Kerry:

NOVAK: Senator Kerry, at last night's debate, General Clark was asked about a statement made in his presence by Michael Moore that President Bush is a -- was a deserter.

In the absence -- and General Clark said he didn't know anything about that, but he didn't know one way or the other.

KERRY: Yes.

NOVAK: In the absence of any -- any allegations to that effect, what do you think of calling the president of the United States a deserter? Or do you have some information that that is accurate?

KERRY: No, obviously, I don't. I think it's over-the-top language, Bob. And I think that's not what my campaign is about.

My campaign is about the American people. It's about bringing our country together, not dividing it, and trying to find a way to make it more fair. We need to put people back to work. We need health care for all Americans. We've got an education system in crisis. And we've got a president who's giving tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans, rather than investing in and facing up to those choices, as well as being fiscally responsible.

BEGALA: But you've talked a lot about your experiences in Vietnam, had a rally today with several Vietnam veterans. Why not raise the questions about George W. Bush's service?

In truth, your hometown paper, "The Boston Globe..."

KERRY: Well...

BEGALA: ... has reported in great detail that there's not a scrap of evidence that, for a year, that he ever showed up for his National Guard duty. He'd been transferred to the Alabama National Guard.

KERRY: Right.

BEGALA: He never showed up. It's certainly not desertion. But it's certainly not fulfillment of one's obligation. It was your hometown paper. I mean, you must be familiar with

(CROSSTALK)

KERRY: Paul, that's not -- that's not the ground I want to fight this campaign on.

And I'm very proud of my service. I'm glad that I got the experience I got. And I'm proud of the friendships I have from it. But a lot of us decided many years ago not to make the other choices people made an issue. It was a very complicated time. It was a very difficult time. What I want to talk about now is the future, how we bring the country together over a war that has been bum-rushed at the American people.


http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0401/23/cf.00.html

[NewYorkerfromMass]

42. I just don't think Kerry wants to play this hand right now

there's plenty of time and ample opportunity to do so later.

[dreissig]

78. Kerry's Being Coy

Kerry's three-month tour in Vietnam isn't really such a big deal. It's not out of modesty that he doesn't want to talk about it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

56. What is your point?

A lot of people at DU seem to think Kerry should have said something different. But I'll trust Kerry's political instincts over theirs, thank you very much.

[mikehiggins]

46. I'd like to believe that is how it would play out

but the fact is Bush will never say a word. It'll all be vets and signs and letters to the editor and articles in the mags and interviews with people in Veterans Hospitals, and, and, and...

Try to compare Bush to Kerry and Kerry will just look even worse for the exchange, attacking the President when Bush says nothing but nice things about him.

Kerry is the ONLY one they can do this against and he is the one you think should step up to bat for our team.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. Kerry won't say a word, either. He'll let the Heinz fortune speak for him

Teresa has said, she won't be spending any of it on 'issue ads' - unless the Republicans attack first. What's the chance of that happening? lol


You are simply underestimating John Kerry and his political skills, instincts and resources.

[For PaisAn]

10. Agree

They will paint Kerry as a traitor. They can't touch Clark on the issues Bush needs; national security, foreign policy, patriotism and that's why they're scared shit of Clark getting the nomination. There was another thread on DU today about them sending money and voters to support the other candidates. Clark IS Karl Rove's worst nightmare.

If they persist on this Michael Moore Bush=Deserter complaint they may have a real battle on their hands. I think they'll steer clear of it from now on. I almost wish Clark would call them on it and tell them to provide proof that the all the evidence out there that Bush is a deserter is wrong.

[aquart]

19. Weren't Kerry's phone banks in Iowa manned by Viet Vets?

Why, come to think of it, I believe they were.

This is a completely specious argument.

[mikehiggins]

52. phone banks?

John Lindsey's phone banks were manned by New Yorkers but that didn't stop other New Yorkers from hounding him from pillar to post all over the country to show what a crappy job he had done as mayor.

Remember President Lindsey? Oh, that's right, he didn't even make it to Iowa.

Sure you can get some Vets to support Kerry. You can get Vets to support Bush and Reagan and Nixon.

What Vets are going to call Bush a traitor?

YOu have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

I worked on Ground Zero site after the towers came down in New York City. All the old rules have changed.

There will never be a President Kerry.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

62. I hope you won't be too disappointed

when your prediction turns out to be wrong.

[mikehiggins]

105. I won't be disappointed. I won't be wrong.

Mark it down. You heard it here first.

You may want to reflect on that as the next Bush admistration invades Cuba.

[bigtree]

20. You watch. He will wipe the floor with that nonsense.

Not many people liked Nixon. Not many veterans, at least those who remember Nixon's treachery, will hold John's dissent against him.

I think the opposite will happen. I believe that John will run a successful 'veteran's' campaign that will sweep the South.

The question is what do you think of his dissent of that war? Will you hold it against him? If not, will you defend him? Or will you do what Nixon did? Hound him for what I believe was the highest service he could have done at the time: Opposing that bloody, illegal war.

[KittyWampus]

23. Kerry Denounced The US On Foreign Soil.

A Presidential candidate CANNOT have that on his record.

It is one thing to protest somewheres in your home country...

[bigtree]

28. I see you care more than I do about this

You're practically foaming over this. I think the problem lies with Democrats who won't defend an anti-war stance in the Nixon era. Sad that this post is not a declaration that we won't stand for such division. John is a patriot; in his service in and out of the military. If you can't defend that, fine. Don't expect the rest of us who will defend his dissent of that war to understand.

You may find that your opinion of his dissent of that war is a minority one.

[KittyWampus]

32. Dissent On Your HOME SOIL Is Fine. Denouncing Over Seas Is Heinous

In politics it is NOT DONE.

When Wes was testifying inthe Hague, Judy Woodruff tried to get Clark to insult Bush and he outdid her by saying thathe stood by his words... but he did not elaborate.

She was obviously tryingn to do a gotcha and you could see she was sad she FAILED.

Some politician said something or other about Bush whilst overseas maybe a year ago>>>

And he was SAVAGED by the media.

Can't remember who.

[bigtree]

34. You know more about the smear game than I do

Where are your links that prove he denounced the country overseas? Or is this just innuendo that you are spreading?

[mikehiggins]

58. It would seem so

And we are only amatuers.

Does the word traitor mean anything to you, on an emotional level, down in your gut, or is it just another word?

If not, then that is the difference.

To some people, to a lot of people, traitor has the same impact as child molester. And just like being called a child molester, it is the charge that carries the impact, even if the target is innocent.

In the movies the intrepid man who follows his principles wins out and earns the grudging respect of even the most reactionery redneck.

In real life he gets shot in the dark on a back road.

This is dynamite, not rhetoric.

[bigtree]

70. You've all but called John Kerry a traitor.

If not, then defend him.

I don't even remotely feel that way. I would defend him on this, forever.

[mikehiggins]

108. English is my mother tongue. I know exactly what I am saying.

I am not calling John Kerry a traitor.

I am saying that in this election his past in regard to Viet Nam creates an insurmountable obstacle to our success in November.

Now I realize I don't get paid big bucks to appear on TV shows and sound real knowledgeable. I'm just a retired construction worker with a piddling degree in Labor Management Relations, and I'm old and tired and retired to boot. So I can see why guys don't think I'm worth listening to.

Too bad. Kerry is a disaster waiting to happen and if he is the party's nominee, then we are done.

The only way, the ONLY way, this will not play out as I'm telling you is if the GOP figures he's such a weak candidate that they don't need to bother.

Actually, I think they will anyway. Judgment and discretion are alien to these people.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. You've figured it out.

[Maddy McCall]

41. Look at what happened to the Dixie Chicks.

[bigtree]

72. They lost some corporate backers

And a few small-minded 'fans'. They gained my respect.

[dreissig]

63. John's Veterans Campaign

John's veterans campaign may encounter some resistance when vets find out he spent only three months in country, then got reassigned as an admiral's aide in Brooklyn. It's just not as impressive as it appears.

[bigtree]

75. Your objection to this is unconvincing.

It's apparently based on fear that republicans will attack him on this. I believe we have enough energy and commitment to reject the smear that John is a traitor for opposing that bloody, illegal war.

[dreissig]

102. That's Not the Issue

Kerry is trying to cash in on his credentials as a bona fide war hero, but his history continues after Vietnam. The issue of whether he threw back his medals is unresolved, and it's a lot more significant than civilians realize. A family who lost a son in Vietnam and displays his Silver Star over the mantle won't be thrilled that Kerry sent one flying over the White House fence. Then he changed his mind, and thought it a better idea that he threw back somebody else's medals. It's hard to keep up with Kerry's stories. He ought to number them like software versions.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

25. There's a little bit of FReeper tendency in a lot of Americans after...

...September 11th.

[stuzzy]

27. waitasecond...

There's a picture of Kerry with Jane Fonda taken during the Vietnam war? Link anyone?

[dreissig]

29. Not as Heroic as it Sounds

Kerry announced his candidacy with some warship in the background. His military background is a big part of his image, a fact that will invite scrutiny. Without any real digging, Kerry's opponents will discover that Kerry's tour in Vietnam was only three months, making it seem like he bugged out as soon as he realized it was dangerous. Kerry's record is not as heroic as it sounds.

[bigtree]

31. How long was your tour?

[dreissig]

55. Back Off

These discussions about candidates' military service aren't about me, I'm not running for office. But since you asked, I do know something about Vietnam veterans and their attitudes. Thank you for your interest.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

66. You say:

" I do know something about Vietnam veterans and their attitudes "


what is the source of your knowledge?

[dreissig]

80. Infantry

1966-67.

[KittyWampus]

33. The Media SAVAGED Some Poltician About A Year Ago

for saying something critical of Bush while overseas... cannot remember who...

it is NOT DONE.

And you are so totally wrong about Only Free Republic types care.

You are JUST WRONG.

[bigtree]

37. What do you think is wrong with criticizing the policies of Bush

while overseas? Would you defend the right to do that?

Bush is a reckless idiot. I don't care who says that, or where they say it.

That goes for Nixon, too.

[bigtree]

45. Jesus

WHO will you stand up for?! WHAT will you stand up for?!

Why would anyone be concerned about any American's dissent against Nixon's or Bush's illegal wars? Wherever they dissented!

"We don't have time for more mindwasting lies.
Whatever it is you're doing, we're not going to buy it.
It's time to do something.
Or perish in the pretense.

This is not a time to be silent.
Too many people standing their ground.
Too many people standing the wrong ground.
It's time to say something.
Not a time to be quiet

John Trudell, 'Rant and Roll'

[eridani]

43. You're kidding, right?

If disrespecting the president turns people off so much, how do you explain the constant assault on Clinton?

[Maddy McCall]

44. And "Free Republic types" vote.

I am not anti-Kerry. He is my second choice behind Clark. I can only speak from my position amidst southerners, and he will have a very tough time carrying a single southern state.

That said, I like Clark, Kerry, and Edwards. Any of the three will be fine with me, as long as he defeats bush.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

69. What a ridiculous, nonsensical comment.

You start a thread called 'Kerry and Vietnam' and now you are saying:

"This isn't actually about Viet Nam"

:eyes:

[bigtree]

83. And you call him a traitor

You have revealed an attitude that most Democrats do not share about dissent of that war. Good luck with that.

[mikehiggins]

109. Golly how clever

No it is not about Viet Nam. It is about KERRY AND VIET NAM.

Are you clear about that?

Its about the problem that Kerry poses when his history vis a vis VietNam becomes an issue.

Got it?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

81. Can Kerry be trusted?!? ....of course he can!!!!

everything he has done since graduating Yale has been for what he thought was best for the country. As has been said downthread, his stand against Vietnam was genuine and principled.

[eridani]

47. Why does anyone think that there is ANY Democrat--

--who is immune to the Republican slime machine? Can't happen, ever. And a chest full of medals is no shield--just ask McCain or Cleland about it if you don't believe me.

Dems just can't win that game period, so we have to play another one. Kucinich and Dean at least seem to get this. That Kerry still wants to play their way is his downside, not his image or his war record or his anti-Vietnam stance.

[Namvet04]

48. Get over a war 40 years ago

Kerry can stand tall with being in one of the most dangerous positions in Nam.

Note: you see none of Kerry's commanding officers or Generals speaking bad of him as they do Clark. That is fact.

Clark is the one that they will have all the Generals attack him.

I have never heard one vet and I am one of several tours in Nam be upset with Kerry.

Kerry has been a dem for all his life and that is important to many of us.

[dreissig]

57. Kerry's Three-Month Tour

Kerry bugged out after three months. That's a matter of record, I'm not making it up.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

76. Bugged out? You mean he got shot three times,

and the policy was, three Purple Hearts and you head home.


That is a matter of record.

[Namvet04]

77. Forget it, Gore got his dad to get him out early also

It goes on and on. Drop it.

I had never heard that of Kerry.

[mikehiggins]

65. what do your friends think?

Are they all cool with what Kerry did?

Do you guys get together and talk about how neat the anti-war movement was?

No Jane Fonda urinal mints in the stalls at the VFW, right?

Feel free to look at this as a Kerry vs Clark argument. I could really give a shit less. All I want is a candidate who can beat Bush and if I can figure THIS one out, all by myself down here in Florida, how hard is it for anyone else to do?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

67. You may think you've "figured this one out", but you're wrong.

[zulchzulu]

51. OK. Let's bow to the Right Wing Lie Machine before it's too late

Your assessment was silly, at best.

If you think that Bush will bring up Kerry's military record while Bush's is an obvious problem, you may want to do some more research.

As for Kerry not bringing up Bush's AWOL record on Crossfire tonight, the fact that he took the high road and didn't go the way of other politicians that speak before they think shows that he brought it up by not directly bringing it up.

As for "thousands of vets calling him a traitor at events", that is absolutely unfounded.

[dreissig]

59. Kerry's High Road

Kerry spent three months in Vietnam, then got reassigned as an admiral's aide in New York. This is the kind of thing that ordinary GI's hear about but don't experience in their own lives. Kerry's "high road" is a case of the less said, the better.

[bigtree]

86. wounded, dreissig

purple hearts. enough for them to send him home. more than some gave. less than some. served with honor in the military. served with honor outside of the military.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

90. You may wish what you are saying is true, and you may believe it.

But it isn't.

[mikehiggins]

74. Do I think Bush will bring this up?

When FAUX NEWS and CNN and all the rest are there to do it for him?

George Bush drank his way through the Air Guard and probably stopped showing up because they started blood testing. Wow! Sounds like just about anyone else I know from those years, except for being rich.

John Kerry was a leader in the fight against the war while soldiers were getting killed, and POWs were rotting in Hanoi prisons? Oh yeah. That's right up there with Georgie Six-Pack.

Some wounds don't heal that well, or that cleanly.

There are still black POW/MIA flags flying all over this country.

Do you think its because anyone believes those guys are still alive?

Its so they don't get forgotten.

John Kerry, Jane Fonda, Abbie Hoffman, its all the same.

History to lots of people but you know? There are still people dying in Ireland because of things that happened decades ago.

I'm not trying to overdramtise this. I'm trying to point out that some political weaknesses can be overcome. This isn't one of them.

This is rooted in blood and blood, as Shakespere said, will out.

[dreissig]

89. Military Honor

Civilians don't take military honor all that seriously, but soldiers do. And I don't mind saying, Thank God for that.

Kerry threw his medals back. Then he didn't. Then he did. They're getting a bit tarnished for all that flying back and forth and landing on the White House lawn.

[Faygo Kid]

53. Learn about Vietnam. Learn about that war.

The moderators prevent me from expressing my true feelings about your post. Suffice it to say (and I am not a Kerry supporter, although ABB), that John Kerry's opposition to the war was principled and effective. I remember that war; I protested. It was wrong. I still believe that. If we are to approve our candidates by the rabidity of their support for the War in Vietnam, then I am in the wrong place here.

[mikehiggins]

87. I am 58 years old.

Like Governor Dean I was classified 1-Y. I tried to volunteer but was turned down. More than a few of my friends died over there and some of those who came back thought them lucky afterwards.

I lived and worked in New York City during that period. I didn't fight in Viet Nam but I know what it meant here in the United States.

As to not liking my post, I don't like it either.

But I will like a second Bush term even less.

There are some political weaknesses that can be overcome. Some problems that can be compensated for.

Tell me how the label "traitor" will be overcome in 2004, with thousands dead in Iraq and thousands dead in New York City, and I'll be happy to listen. It will have to be a good case, though, because I've been at this for a long, long time and I'd venture to say that I know about as much about this kind of thing as anyone.

I'm not some college kid with a fancy degree and the life experience of a beagle. I don't live in my mother's basement.

I have a son who will be eligible for the draft about ten minutes after Bush gets sworn in next January. I don't want HIS life put at risk because of mamby-pamby political wishing games. I like Kerry as a man and as a Senator but not as our candidate in this election, not if we want to win.

And my name is Michael P. Higgins of Clearwater Florida and I'm not afraid to stand up and say what I believe is the truth.

[AndyTiedye]

98. Was He Wounded?

I thought that was what Purple Hearts were for.

Might that be why he was only there for three months?

[IndianaGreen]

71. Kerry's flip-flops include Vietnam

Jewish World Review Sept. 5, 2003 / 8 Elul, 5763
Mona Charen
Mr. Both Ways

Kerry's website notes that he served as "co-founder" of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. One of the other key figures was Al Hubbard, who spelled America with a "k." Kerry participated in one of VVAW's most famous protests, Dewey Canyon III, "a limited incursion into the country of Congress." Members of VVAW marched on Washington wearing tattered fatigues. They circled the Capitol and attempted to gain entry to Arlington National Cemetery. By nightfall, they had settled in front of the White House. While one of their number played taps, veterans — including Kerry — stood up one by one to throw the medals they had earned in Vietnam over the White House fence.

Years later, Kerry's medals turned up, framed, on his office wall in Washington, D.C. A reporter asked him if these were the same medals he had so theatrically thrown over the White House fence. Kerry was forced to acknowledge that he had thrown some other sailor's medals and kept his own. Mr. Both Ways. Some days he said America needed to feel ashamed of what it had done in Vietnam. On other days, when other winds were blowing, he claimed to be proud of his service.

How does that make sense? If America did something fundamentally "wrong" in Vietnam, as Kerry again insisted in his announcement speech, can any serviceman look back with pride on his participation? Kerry doesn't appear to have worked this out morally as, say, a Japanese soldier might need to do after World War II. The Japanese could reason: "I did my duty. That's the best I can say of my participation in an aggressive war." But Kerry's Vietnam War changes as his current political needs change. His moral reasoning is as shallow as yesterday's poll.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/charen090503.asp

[Feanorcurufinwe]

79. Mona Charen?

ok.

[dreissig]

84. Do the Facts . . .

... bother you? The question is whether Kerry threw back his medals or kept them. It looks like he did both. Pretty slick, doncha think?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

91. Mona Charen wouldn't know the facts if they bit her on the ass.

[dreissig]

96. Boomerang Medals

Watch out when a Silver Star goes flying through the air, you don't want to get hit in the head with one. John Kerry has invented a kind of boomerang Silver Star. It goes over the White House fence but it comes back! Those things have pointy edges, too. Just be careful around John Kerry.

[bigtree]

97. You don't want the facts on this

You are just here to savage John Kerry. Good luck with that.

[dreissig]

106. Flying Stars

I'm not making it up about the weight of a Silver Star, you don't want to get hit with one. Be careful around John Kerry. Other people throw Frisbees, but Kerry throws a Silver Star. Somehow they make it back from the White House lawn to Kerry's office. Remarkable, doncha think?

[IndianaGreen]

99. John Kerry: The Chameleon Senator

Here is but a small taste of what is to come. Unlike Wes Clark, Kerry is vulnerable among a majority of veterans whose bitterness about Vietnam has taken them on a different ideological path.

Consider the fact that Kerry won't get the antiwar vote, and that he also may split the veteran vote with Bush. Who wins?

John Kerry: The Chameleon Senator
By Ted Sampley
U.S. Veteran Dispatch
October-December 1996 Issue

Despite the prayers and wishful thinking of POW/MIA families and Vietnam veteran activists, Sen. John Forbes Kerry, the "chameleon" senator from Massachusetts, was re-elected to the Senate in the 1996 election. Apparently Kerry's well publicized history as a longtime radical supporter of the Vietnamese communists and a recent flap about whether or not he is guilty of a war crime meant very little to the voters in Massachusetts.

Sen. Kerry, the "noble statesman" and "highly decorated Vietnam vet" of today, is a far cry from Kerry, the radical, hippie-like leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) in the early 1970s. After Kerry, as a Navy Lieutenant (junior grade) commanding a Swift boat in Vietnam, was awarded the Silver he found it advantageous to quit the Navy, change the color of his politics and become a leader of VVAW. He went to work organizing opposition in America against the efforts of his former buddies still ducking communist bullets back in Vietnam. Kerry gained national attention in April 1971, when he testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, then chaired by Sen. J. William Fulbright (D-AR), who led opposition in the Congress against U.S. participation in the war. During the course of his testimony, Kerry stated that the United States had a definite obligation to make extensive economic reparations to the people of Vietnam.

Kerry's testimony, it should be noted, occurred while some of his fellow Vietnam veterans were known by the world to be enduring terrible suffering as prisoners of war in North Vietnamese prisons. Kerry was a supporter of the "People's Peace Treaty," a supposed "people's" declaration to end the war, reportedly drawn up in communist East Germany. It included nine points, all of which were taken from Viet Cong peace proposals at the Paris peace talks as conditions for ending the war.

One of the provisions stated: "The Vietnamese pledge that as soon as the U.S. government publicly sets a date for total withdrawal , they will enter discussion to secure the release of all American prisoners, including pilots captured while bombing North Vietnam." In other words, Kerry and his VVAW advocated the communist line to withdraw all U.S. troops from Vietnam first and then negotiate with Hanoi over the release of prisoners. Had the nine points of the "People's Peace Treaty" favored by Kerry been accepted by American negotiators, the United States would have totally lost all leverage to get the communists to release any POWs captured during the war years.

http://www.usvetdsp.com/story10.htm

[bigtree]

107. Another conservative rag

And you won't oppose them? Do you support all of the right-wing shit on that site? Or just the smear of John Kerry?

[bigtree]

88. Mona Charen

republican hack. is the use of this republican rag on this board against the rules? should be.

Sad how some are using republican talking points to savage John here instead of fighting against them.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

85. How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?

What I really find amazing is that people actually think they can persuade Democrats to not vote for Kerry based on his record of war and anti-war heroism.

[DoNotRefill]

93. he's going to draw fire from BOTH sides...

First, because he was in the military and killed people in an unjust war, and second because he was against the war.

He's stuck.

[bigtree]

95. Most Americans don't hold the soldiers responsible for that or any war

:thumbsdown:

[mikehiggins]

94. Oh, I can answer that one

Because the Democrats are not the majority of voters in this country and the single most important thing to do this year is to defeat George Bush.

If a candidate is a potential disaster, and I'm not talking about all the rhetorical bullshit that passes for discussion on DU, then you tell those democratic voters that handing this guy the baton is a death sentence for any chance at victory in November.

That's pretty clear, right?

We're not talking about Dean's red face or Clark's Pentagon fan club or Lieberman's rightwing tendencies, or Dennis's suits. We're talking about a documented history of a bemedalled war veteran who returned to the United States and helped organise the opposition to that war.

In a perfect world, which is the first time I used that cliche this evening, that would be great for a blockbuster movie like the one about Ron Kovacs. In the real world, though, we have a big hole in Manhattan that has made things a lot different from the way things were when SCOTUS put Bush into the Oval Office.

Ignore that difference and watch Bush "prance" back into office in 2005.

[bigtree]

104. And you will help him in this

by perpetuting your view that John is a traitor. You won't vote for him in the end, notwithstanding what you wrote at the top, so why should anyone care what you think republicans will say about his dissent of that dirty, illegal war. Not one word from you about Nixon's treachery. Not one word about Republican treachery. You save all of your animosity for John, claiming to be, oh so concerned about Bush getting back in. It's John you hate. You called him a traitor. That groundless smear is more of a reflection of you than on this fine man. I will be happy to recall your hatred of John when he is taking the oath of office.

Now, kick your own disgusting thread.

[Moderator]

110. Locking.

1. If you start a thread in this forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. The moderators have the sole authority to decide whether a thread topic is inflammatory.

Thanks,
DU Moderator