Is Dean looking to Clark survival?

[angee_is_mad]

I am just curious because DU has some of Dean's most committed supporters and I noticed a few postings by those supporters wanting to band with Clark's supporters.

I take this to mean that they are very worried right now. I personally feel that the worst thing Clark(my candidate) could do would be to align himself with Dean.

If Clark doesn't win the nomination(heaven forbid), he would be better off with Kerry or even Edwards.

Dean just has too much baggage and the spin doctors would have to work overtime to fix his faux pas. This would be a negative since the country is basically evenly divided between Republicans and Democrats.

Democrats need to attract moderate Republicans and independents to win! The repubs need democrats to stay home to win.

The real democratic base have not gone all out for Dean(minorities,women, working class). I think he has realized this and that is why he shuffled all of those endorsements out. They do not seem to be helping, but it isn't over yet. I have a feeling most of his hardcore supporters are Nader's people. Even though he is a centrist, he rode this progressive stance for all it was worth and this would backfire in the general election.

I do give him credit for energizing the democratic party again. Even if you love him or hate him you have to give him props for this.

[adamrsilva]

1. Clark's running for President

not VP.

[angee_is_mad]

8. I know!

and I feel he would be a great President. Like I said he is my guy.

[dsc]

2. Just once I would like to see gays acknowledged as being real democrats

by people like you. Is that too much to ask for a constituency that voted 70% for Gore and 90% for Clinton to expect?

[angee_is_mad]

7. if U R gay and a democrat

you are a real democrat! Happy?

I would even include gays in the hardcore democratic base with minorities, women and the working class.

[dsc]

9. that was my point

and we have supported Dean bigtime.

[Bucky]

13. Clark is very strong on gay rights. But this is sorta off topic

Why bring up gays in this thread? It seems to be a tangent at best.

[dsc]

15. She claimed my candidate

has no support among real democrats and the base. She then listed a bunch of these groups leaving gays off. So yeah, I think it is on topic.

[mopinko]

16. howard dean has stuck his neck out for gays.

listen to the speech part of the "speech"

http://home.comcast.net/~cozdemir226/dean/dean.mp3

[Jerseycoa]

10. Gays are real Democrats!

:)

[angee_is_mad]

11. only if the vote democrat

as well as other minorities. You are only a democrat,if you vote or have voted democrat and believe in the ideals of the democratic party.

[ulysses]

25. lord - here we go again.

A question, angee. I've been a Democrat my entire life, and have voted straight Democrat my entire life except for precisely two votes.

Am I a Democrat in your all-knowing eyes?

[angee_is_mad]

26. yes you are

[ulysses]

29. even if those two votes went to Nader?

[angee_is_mad]

31. welllllllllll

I have a question just for you. Are there alot of dean supporters who have voted for Nader in the past?

If so, did you feel disenfranchised by the democratic party?

[ulysses]

36. thanks for the non-answer.

I'll take that to mean, as I've suspected, that a Democrat who's voted Republican in the past is still a Democrat in the eyes of party loyalists, but a Democrat who's voted for Nader in the past is, at best, questionable. Mind if I quote you?

Are there alot of dean supporters who have voted for Nader in the past?

No clue, as I haven't gotten my direct link to the Dean pollsters installed yet. That said, judging by what I know from the Green/Dem wars here and what DUers have said about their voting inclincations, Armstead and I are the only Nader-positive DUers that immediately come to mind who support Dean, and I don't recall if Armstead *voted* for Nader - you should ask him. I suspect, though, that most 2000 Nader voters, here and at large, lean toward Kucinich.

If so, did you feel disenfranchised by the democratic party?

"Disenfranchised" means "not allowed to vote", so no. Abandoned, told to fuck off or at least shut up, ignored - yes.

[angee_is_mad]

38. I am sorry U felt that way

and may the best man win!

[krkaufman]

40. Nader voter a democrat...? Depends on where you live, eh?

> even if those two votes went to Nader?

It really depends on where you live, doesn't it? If you voted for Nader in a state whose electoral votes went to Clinton and Gore, then you're absolved, right?

I always want to harass friends and acquaintances who voted for Bush or didn't vote at all, but they're all in Blue/Dem/Gore states, darn it!

[DemSigns]

3. Dean has the least baggage actually

But there are more issues for Clark to consider. Kerry's baggage could be fatal if spun right by the RWM. Edwards?

[Namvet04]

32. Dean, Edwards and Kerry have less baggage than the others

Clark has so many problems and al also. Dk just did not click with many of us.

If we could get it to the three that really count, we could have good debates and offer ideas to win american voters.

Clark is a rookie and he can learn from this for 08 or 12. He can go back to being the rich lobbist and corportate guy.

Dk can help one of the top 3 in congress.

[DebJ]

4. We need Dean to energize the entire nation as President too...just a

campaign booster is not sufficient. The people of this country need to get involved as of yesterday, and start paying attention to what is going on locally and nationally. Sometimes I get so frustrated with people being blind and not caring about what is being done to THEM, to US, I feel like saying if you will not attend to your civic duties, please go live somewhere else. I know that sounds harsh and is ineffective, but I just needed to vent. Thanks.

[Guaranteed]

5. Ummm... no.

I know some folks have reached out to Clark, but I think it was out of feelings of goodwill, as "outsiders," more than anything. I like Clark, too, he's my second.

I'm not worried at ALL right now. You'll see the numbers coming out tonight. Dean's on the upswing, and I'm actually very excited.

[mopinko]

6. pie in the sky what ifs

"I noticed a few postings by those supporters wanting to band with Clark's supporters."
like ad nauseum clark/dean edwards/kerry yaya/yoohoo ticket speculation.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

41. Dean and Clark are the only 2 candidates who have been sticking their

necks out and risking everything. They have gotten "slapped down" by the media and the right wing.

The rest of the candidates (except Kucinich and Sharpton) are "playing it safe." That's why many of the Dean and Clark people appreciate each other's candidates...

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. Most likely not a helpful road to go down now

The greatest likelihood is that discussion here on this may spin off into; who is the better candidate and why, who is right and who is wrong, who fights best for Democrats and who doesn't?

Given the recent history of frayed feelings between passionate supporters of both men here at DU, we should give all of this a rest for a while right now, at least until after the New Hampshire vote. We certainly don't have to discuss who would make a good Vice President for who, four days before the NH Primary, when everyone is rightfully focused on doing what they can to help their candidate show well there.

There has been some healthy commiseration between the two camps about how our guys have been treated by the media recently. It has been a positive discussion for all involved. There has been an acknowledgment that both men are fighting hard for many of the same things. There has been talk about cooperating to keep the process on a level playing field. These are all good things for us to reinforce personal ties through. Come November most of us hope and expect to be fighting on the same team against Bush.

As a Clark supporter I will say that there is much that I respect about Dean, and even more that I respect about his supporters commitment to make a real and positive difference in our country.

[angee_is_mad]

14. interesting

[overground1]

17. Clark shouldn't join with Dean - Clark supporters should switch to Dean

[angee_is_mad]

18. why would we do something like that?

[Namvet04]

20. I agree, clark is falling fast and dean is turning it around

Just look at Clarks numbers since the big three (dean, kerry and Clark) came into NH. They are in free fall and he is going to have to fight Joe for 4th place.

Dean can still turn this around. I hope we get it down to the big three after NH and can focus on issues that count with americans.

[WillyBrandt]

21. This is false.

They fell, though not as much as Dean's. Clark's numbers are now either rising or stagnant in the Granite state.

[Namvet04]

30. Clark can't get people out to his meetings it is being reported

I think it was cnn but this reporter was at a clark rally and he could not find people from NH as they were all from out of state. He mention how far clark had fallen in the poll since the big 3 came from Iowa to NH. My prediction is that Clark will have a hard time beating Joe for 4th.

For are party, I hope NH gets it down to the big 3 so we can have the people who can beat Bush debating to get the best one. Clark the rookie can go back to being a lobbist and rich corportate guy. Dk can go help in the congress, he just can't motivate dems. Al can be Al again.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

43. Not this b.s. again... In New Hampshire, they get lots of people from

neighboring states at the New Hamp events because those states are so close together. It's a compliment actually to have voters coming from Mass, Vermont and Maine to New Hamp events.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

44. Huge crowds at Clark events. People have to be turned away...

http://www.clark04.com/story/89/

On Saturday, Wes Clark's campaign had a problem most campaigns only dream of. For the third time this month in Portsmouth, supporters had to be turned away from a campaign event because the house was packed. More than 900 people showed up to hear Clark speak in Portsmouth about his plans for an even better America. About 100 people stood outside because the fire code barred more them from entering the building.

Clark was joined by actors Ted Danson and Mary Steenburgen, Congressman Mike Ross (D-AR) and former Arkansas state treasurer Jimmie Lou Fisher. Over the past week, high profile supporters have been stumping across New Hampshire for Clark, including Michael Moore, Dr. Mary Frances Berry and many prominent Democratic leaders.

Ted Danson and Mary Steenburgen went to a coffee shop across the street to address the overflow crowd who came to see Clark.

Earlier Saturday morning, Clark drew an overflow crowd of more than 400 people to a pancake breakfast at an Auburn fire station. The people who showed up weren't after breakfast. They were hungry to hear from Clark.

Friday night was a similar story, more than 800 people packed into a gym in Derry, New Hampshire to hear Clark's plans for tax reform for working families, educational opportunity for every student and affordable health care access for all Americans.

Clark is headed for a strong finish in the nation's first primary and Clark's national organization is already operating in high gear to prepare for the February 3 primaries.

South Carolina, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arizona, North Dakota and Delaware all have at least one Clark campaign office. Clark already has substantial grassroots in Wisconsin, Tennessee, Virginia and Michigan. In fact, Clark supporters are organizing in every state in the nation.

[Namvet04]

19. Why? Dean is going up and clark is in free fall

Clark may not even beat Joe. Dean is doing ok and I hope we get this thing down to 3 (kerry, edwards, dean). Clark can go back to being a lobbist and part of making big money in corportation and learn from this as a rookie. DK could never get very many to back his good ideas and he can help in congress. Al will be Al.

Don't give up on Dean. The key I hear in NH is the rallies today that Dean, Edwards and Kerry have them full of NH voters. Clark has out of state people in his crowds. They can't vote in NH I hope.

[NNN0LHI]

46. Twice now you have said Lieberman will likely pass Clark

Every poll I have seen has Lieberman in low single digits and Clark in the teens. In some he had passed Dean. What are you trying to pull?

Don

[Tom Rinaldo]

22. Dean and Clark Supporters

Everyone really. If you believe in your current candidate, if you think he has any chance of winning the nomination, and both Dean and Clark do have a chance, then stick with him now. Why on Earth would anyone believe intra campaign recruiting would be fruitful now, 4 days before the New Hampshire Primary? Sure down the road some of us, dunno which, may face that choice, but not now. Yeah sure, if you are experiencing some doubts about whether your guy can or should become President, then look into alternatives. But no one needs recruiters to find the candidate web sites.

If someone wants to make a direct pitch for any undecideds that remain, a clean thread to that effect might be a good idea. I respect the devotion that core supporters of all the candidates have shown, and I will not do what I think would be insulting, and suggest that they should bail out now before the first Primary Election is held.

[ulysses]

23. this should have been your thread title.

I have a feeling most of his hardcore supporters are Nader's people.

That's what's at the base of your point, no?

[angee_is_mad]

24. The basis of the thread is in the thread!

[ulysses]

27. true enough.

Your point is to bash Dean and Dean supporters by equating him and them with Nader and his supporters in 2000. I find this false and annoying on a number of levels, but my point is that you could have cut to the chase in your thread title by saying something like "Dean only attracts Nader voters, who we all know are evil".

Or something.

[angee_is_mad]

33. why do you perceive Nader as evil?

I certainly do not. I find him to be very interesting.

My thread was in reference to other postings from dean supporters reaching out to clark's people. I have also noticed a few Dean/Clark posts. I noticed that the postings are not doing the same for DK,Edwards or Kerry.

[ulysses]

37. I don't.

I voted for him in 1996 and 2000. For someone you find "very interesting", you seem (in your reply above) less than willing to allow that a Democrat who voted for Nader (as opposed to one who voted Republican) is still a Democrat.

[janx]

28. Just because some people in ONE forum section on ONE board

on the Net agree about something, that does not mean that Dean is doing anything.

[angee_is_mad]

34. excellent point! thank you

[quaker bill]

35. Wrong

"I have a feeling most of his hardcore supporters are Nader's people."

I worked for Al Gore in 2000 right up to election day. Almost every one I know working for Dean locally voted for Gore. A few voted for Bush, the rest stayed home. No one I have met in the campaign worked or voted for Nader.

The Nader voters I know are in the Kucinich camp.

[mitchum]

39. BEWARE OF VERMONTERS BEARING GIFTS

especially ones whose minions (both paid and unpaid) have spent months branding your candidate as:

a PNAC tool
a republican
a DLC stalking horse
a general fired in disgrace
a professional killer

Dean is a dying and he wants the general's lifeforce. Don't do it.
Clark remains very viable.

[angee_is_mad]

42. I agree

it isn't over yet. Our General has just had a little setback. His performance in the debates is just what he needed.

That poor performance is going to energize him. Jamie will help him kick it in gear. From now on he will not take anything for granted and come back fighting like the military man he is.

Hell look at how it worked for Kerry and Edwards. Everyone had written Kerry off and Edwards wasn't even on the radar.

Don't forget his strengths will be the south and the military states.

[shivaji]

45. Should Clark drop out if he finishes BEHIND Lieberman?

Obviously I am assuming Kerry, Dean, Edwards will finish 1-2-3

[drfemoe]

47. You haven't seen any

Clark supporters reaching out to Dean supporters? I guess this post is fair warning to eye with caution.

[angee_is_mad]

48. I have seen some

Clark supporters being receptive to overtures by deans supporters.

[drfemoe]

49. here ya go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=183726