Was Bob Dole's "Colonel" dig at Clark planned ahead of time?

[boxster]

Disclaimer: I'm a Clark guy, but Kerry is likely my #2.

I know that this "event" has been discussed at some length, so forgive me if this approach has already been addressed.

I was watching Larry King when Dole called Clark a colonel in a weak attempt at humor. Dole was obviously trying to say that Kerry's win in Iowa essentially demoted Clark to #2 in the "militarily-experienced Democratic presidential candidates" race, with Kerry obviously now #1 in Dole's view.

It's amazing that this "joke" has gotten so much traction and has now become an issue between Clark and Kerry.

The question is: could this have been planned? Considering Clark's obvious pride in his military service, could this have been a planned statement with the sole intent of getting a response that would benefit the BFEE?

Note: I am in no way linking Kerry to the BFEE. My point is that Clark is the last person in this race that the BFEE wants to face, so anything they can do to cut him down and ensure his loss in the primaries benefits them.

Opinions?

[greatauntoftriplets]

1. How could Dole miss the fact that Clark was a general?

I think it was a planned dig that backfired badly on Dole.

[Jerseycoa]

8. That wasn't it at all

He was talking politically, not militarily. He was putting Clark down over Kerry's big win in Iowa by saying Kerry had turned Gen. Clark into Lt. Clark. It was a dig. Clark would have done better to shrug it off.

[boxster]

13. Yeah, I kind of cringed when he responded the way he did.

Not that it was bad, just that I knew what the media could do with it if they latched on.

It's scary when you watch your candidate's TV appearances and your first reaction is how something could be used against them.

Yikes, I'm such a cynic.

[JI7]

2. dole is a military guy

it probably wasn't too difficult to think of it right then.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

3. Dole the looser was trying to insight a fight between Kerry and Clark.

...and guess what, IT DID NOT WORK, MR. DOLE!!!!!!!!!!!

[bicentennial_baby]

4. Well...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=181828

[democratreformed]

6. At least not on one side ...... n/t

[blm]

7. exactly. GOP wants those two and their camps to go after each other.

Don't fuel the fire. They have to answer when they're on camera, but we don't have to add to it.

Don't let the GOP terrorists win.

[Justice]

20. Truthfully

I agreed with you until today.

But today I read the campaign flyers Kerry is mailing out and the page on Kerry's website.

Then I read about Kerry's remarks on 60 minutes.

I would say that the fire is being fueled right here in our own party, and it is a darn shame.

[Old and In the Way]

29. Er, can't we all agree that each candidate is going to play hardball

to gain the nomination? Nice guys usually finish out of the running in Presidential politics. Each will attempt to paint their competitors as less viable or capable, it's the nature of campaigns.

Personally, I commend all the candidates for a remarkably civil campaign. 4 candidates who are reasonably within striking distance have been able to maintain civility and respect in their campaigns.

[Jerseycoa]

32. Don't miss it

[Old and In the Way]

33. Now that is a powerful and positive message.

I like it!

[Qutzupalotl]

51. We like it too.

:7

hey OAITW :yourock:

[Maccagirl]

9. It worked only for awhile

The "controversy" is over. I saw from the get-go what Dole was trying to do and it also explains why Bob Dole never deserved to be president despite his vaunted "humor".

[boxster]

11. The funny thing is that if Dole had shown some of that humor

during the campaign, he might have done a lot better vs. Clinton.

I always thought Dole looked like someone who had no interest in winning. Good for us, of course!

[Eric J in MN]

21. Yeah, thank goodness Dole didn't show how wonderful his

Yeah, thank goodness Bob Dole didn't show how wonderful his sense of humor is in 1996 or he would have beaten Clinton (sarcasm).

Or then again, maybe not.

[boxster]

26. Please note: I said "better", I didn't say he'd beat him.

Dole spent that entire election looking grumpy and looking like he wanted nothing to do with the process.

As I noted, that was obviously good for us, because Clinton beat him handily. Had Dole run a better campaign and acted like a human being, it certainly could have been a lot closer.

Frankly, it was the same thing with Gore. Had Gore shown the personality he showed at the stump speeches (and since the election, for that matter) at the debates, it might have been a different story.

[Tom Rinaldo]

19. Sadly "the controversy" is not over.

CBS is reporting that Kerry said this during a 60 minutes interview being broadcast tomorrow:

"That's the first time I have heard a general be so dismissive of lieutenants, who bleed a lot in wars," Kerry told Ed Bradley in Sunday's interview. "I think the general is entitled to his feelings and opinions."

Fritz Hollings was working "the controversy" for Kerry on Friday, though his comments could be considered cloaked in humor.

[Jerseycoa]

5. I couldn't tell

Dole can be a nasty thing when he wants to be. He poked Clark in a sore spot at a sensitive time and he knew what he was doing. Dole had backed Clark during Kosovo and I think Clark felt hurt and didn't respond as wisely as he should have. Anybody who thinks Wesley Clark would deliberately disrespect ANY veteran's war service is out of his or her skull. As to your own question, they are sending their big guns to blanket the land, so why not Dole? Makes sense to me.

[Leilani]

14. Agree

Dole has a mean streak.

I don't think it was planned, but Dole made the most of this opportunity.

[HFishbine]

10. Dole

is a cranky old fart. I doubt if his flacid opinions have any sway with voters.

[IndianaGreen]

12. First, Dole wasn't trying to be humorous, it was a vicious dig at Clark

Second, Kerry has a well-established track record for dirty campaigning going back to his 1996 reelection race against then-Governor William Weld.

Third, Kerry collaborated with Gephardt in the murder/suicide in Iowa, and took the high road as Gephardt did his kamikaze gig.

Fourth, Terry McCauliffe was a party to this by not intervening after the Dean/OSAMA ad that was financed by Gephardt and Kerry's financial backers. McCauliffe's role becomes more obvious when one finds our Global Crossing DNC Chair calling for a reconciliation meeting of all candidates in March.

Fifth, the American people will not get a choice between two alternatives in the Fall. The only difference between Kerry and Bush is on tactics, not on substance. They are the Skull & Bones Dream Team!

[blm]

18. Do you have a link for your claim about the ad?

I'd like to see where Kerry's financial backers made that ad. I believe that is not factual and meant to be a smear, but if you have proof, please post it. If not, I hope you edit your post accordingly and remove that smear.

[IndianaGreen]

22. This was discussed in DU

look in the archives.

[blm]

36. No. It isn't.

It was said that a person who had once been in the Kerry campaign but who was dismissed months earlier, was one of the people who worked for the union who put up the ad.

So...can you please link to your claim that Kerry's financial people put up that ad?

If not, please remove the smear.

[IndianaGreen]

39. You know full well that Gephard and Kerry people were behind the Osama

ad because you were involved in defending your candidate when that stuff became public.

Besides, there are many other DUers that remember the controversy, which is less than a month old.

How would you support a candidate that got a medal for valor for shooting a wounded VC in the back of the head is mind boggling!

[IndianaGreen]

41. Kerry shot a wounded VC soldier in the head, and got a medal for valor!

Kerry killed an enemy under circumstances that are not entirely clear, but probably sanctioned by war's ambiguous rules of engagement. The incident, finessed somewhat clumsily in Brinkley's account, surfaced during Kerry's reelection campaign for the Senate in 1996 when he was questioned about having shot a wounded guerrilla who had already fallen. Kerry rallied several high-profile Vietnam veterans to defend his lightning decision to shoot an adversary who, while down, remained armed and potentially deadly.

http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2004/01/19/a_skillful_chronicle_of_kerrys_conflicts/

Kerry was given a Silver Star for an action on February 28, 1969:

When Kerry's Patrol Craft Fast 94 received a B-40 rocket shot from shore, he beached his craft in the center of the enemy positions and an enemy soldier sprang up from a hole not ten feet from Patrol Craft 94 and fled.

The boat's machine gunner hit and wounded the fleeing Viet Cong as he darted behind a hootch. The twin .50s gunner also fired at the Viet Cong. He said he "laid 50 rounds" into the hootch before Kerry leaped from the boat and dashed in to administer a "coup de grace" to thw wounded Viet Cong. Kerry returned with the B-40 rocket and launcher.

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jf_kerry.htm

He witnessed the inadvertent killings by fire power under his command of an innocent child in a sampan traveling in violation of a nightly curfew, and of an old papasan farmer who bolted when he should have froze. Kerry personally killed an enemy under circumstances that are not entirely clear, but probably sanctioned by war's ambiguous rules of engagement. The incident, finessed somewhat clumsily in Brinkley's account, surfaced during Kerry's re-election campaign for the Senate in 1996 when he was questioned about having shot a wounded guerrilla who had already fallen. Kerry rallied several high profile Vietnam veterans, including retired Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, Senators Max Cleland and Bob Kerrey, to defend his lightening decision to shoot an adversary who, while down, remained armed and potentially deadly.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/John_Kerry_tribune_011804.htm

[jfxgillis]

23. But what about the secret sado-masochistic homo-erotic ...

... initiation rites the cadets at West Point inflict on the plebes?

Isn't that as big a concern for Clark supporters as Skull & Bones rites?

As it happens, Clark is fifth on my list of the five major contenders, but I don't find anything really wrong with Clark's positions, character or manner and I'd vote for him gladly if he were nominated. I just believe candidates for high elective office should move through the ranks, for couple of different reasons which I don't need to go into now.

Listen, Indiana, if it's your way or the highway for the Democratic nomination, I estimate you've got about two weeks at most left before you aren't a Democrat anymore, i.e. before Clak is burnt toast.

Any sage advice for us before you depart to unwittingly assist in the re-election of Geirge W. Bush?

[IndianaGreen]

28. I am trying to save you the pain of hearing me say "I told you so!"

when Kerry leads our party to an ignominious defeat in the Fall.

Kerry is unelectable!

[jfxgillis]

44. Okay. Remind me then.

In the meantime, Clark's already proven not to have the requsite skills to win a campaign.

He might have the skills to be Prez, but he can't get there, this year at least.

[Timahoe]

46. You should listen to IndianGreen!

I remember reading him warn all of during the recall election that we were making a big mistake to not run credible replacement candidates during the recall election. No one listened to him, but it is now quite clear in hindsight that Davis was toast from the outset, but Schwarzenegger's victory was never a foregone conclusion.

I think he's on to something with Kerry.

[jfxgillis]

53. So what? We all make good calls sometimes

If Kerry is doomed, so is Clark, who has had to take numerous "wedge issue" positions even more "liberal" than Kerry just get his Dem bona fides up.

Besides, since Indinana is willing to prey on the demagoguery inherent in spreading the Skull and Bones bullshit, OR, worse, he believes that Skull & Bones bullshit, I really don't care what he thinks.

[newyawker99]

56. Hi Timahoe!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Valjean]

43. Nothing homo-erotic

There is nothing homo-erotic about the ordeals plebes go through. The military is VERY strict about not being "gay".

Beyond this, they are VERY OPEN about what goes on at West Point. I've even seen camera crews following first year cadets.

West Point is an organization open to high school seniors with the best grades. You can get commissions from Congressman and Senators. Most of them are ordinary folk, not scions of the eastern elite. There are also tens of thousands of West Point graduates.

Nice try. But it's pretty weak.

[jfxgillis]

45. NOTHING homo-erotic, you say?

Of COURSE there's "nothing homo-erotic" about it, OF COURSE. That's what they all say.

Lighten the heck up. I was mocking Indiana Green.

As a matter of fact, seriously, both sets of rituals are more or less appropriate for the community of men into which each of those youths were initiated: Yale, the WASP elite; West Point, military command.

Me, I smoked dope and dropped acid at the time and now I'm an adjunct professor. It all works out, see?

[Loren645]

50. Correct. Dole was clearly helping Kerry.

Just one big club the Senate!

[Guaranteed]

15. Yeah, it did seem like something of an ambush.

But, you know, you gotta watch Bob Dole cuz he's a jokester and he likes to get his digs in.

[IowaBiker]

16. I put Dole above that stuff, sure he had an agenda ...

Clark has a bit of a reputation for being an arrogant misfit. It cost him his NATO position in the Clinton administration.

I'm sure Bob Dole is aware of it. Bob can't take the heat for the way Clark reacted. Clark has to take responsibility of that for himself.

I'm sorry, I've been around Colonel's and General's who have taken their rank and attitudes with them into the private sector and found them to be a royal pain in the tail end.

Consider Dole doing the Democratic party a favor here.

If Clark can learn from this little nose tweaking and demonstrate it, then there is plenty of time to recover. But if Clark wants to project this egghead general "I'm in charge here" Haig-like attitude, then he's a liability.

--Brian

[Qutzupalotl]

54. Wes was kidding, for God's sake

Look at the video. He's smiling the whole time, plus Dole had just made a "joke".

Get to know Wes. He's one of the most humble fair-minded guys you'll ever meet. Your characterization of him as an "arrogant misfit" is off base.

And what cost him his NATO position was showing up Cohen.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. He was having Viagra withdrawals.

:7

I don't know if it was "planned", but I do think it was a deliberate attempt to minimize Clark. Dole was being a jerk.

[krkaufman]

38. BobDole is a flaccid, mean-spirited old man

BobDole is a mean-spirited old man. And a flaccid puppet of the right.

I saw the BobDole discussion live, and saw the self-satisfied, derisive -- not jovial -- look on his face as he tried diminishing General Clark. BobDole was definitely trying to artificially pump-up John Kerry (likely per his right-wing controllers).

BobDole was continually mumbling in the background, trying to come up with zingers. Clark totally manhandled him during their exchange. Clark's rebuttal to BobDole's slight has been taken vastly out of context. It was perfectly reasonable for Clark to reemphasize their relative military experience; just as it would be reasonable for Kerry to emphasize his Senatorial experience, if he were to be labeled a Senate page.

Watch the clip for yourself:

http://www.us4clark.com/mediaclips.html
http://www.videos4clark.com/vidclips/CNN_LKL_011904.WMV


Here's the critical bits from the clip:

Clark (at 5:00 mark): "The American people want a change in leadership."

DOLE: "Well, John Kerry's the change."

...(Clark pummels Dole, debate-wise)...

DOLE (at 5:37 mark): "I think, politically, you just became a colonel instead of a general, and I think the big winner is John Kerry." (shad-eating grin)

Clark: "Well I don't think that's at all... Senator, with all due respect he's a lieutenant and I'm a general. You gotta get your facts on this. (smiling) He was a lieutenant in Vietnam; I've done all the big leadership. Now, I respect John Kerry and I like him, but what I'm gonna say 'It's up to the voters of New Hampshire, South Carolina, New Mexico, Arizona, Oklahoma, all across this country', and that's what democracy's about."

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. Oh, yeah!

I watched it live too and Dole had a shit eating grin on his face as he derided Wes. He was definitely enjoying himself. Notice though, Dole has never been prez and Wes will be! :7

Go Wes!

[Eric J in MN]

24. Gee, calling a general a colonel. How clever. What will those

Gee, calling a general a colonel. How clever. What will those witty Republicans come up with next? (sarcasm)

That's almost as charming as when they call the Democratic Party the Democrat Party.

[boxster]

27. Well, it worked. Clark responded and Kerry is now making it an issue.

So, apparently it was pretty clever.

Let's not underestimate the right-wing's ability to instigate things like this. Anyone who has paid attention to Clark knows that he is extremely proud of his military career and wouldn't take lightly to someone belittling it. Dole knew that.

It's obvious that it was intentional. My question was only if it was possible that it was planned, similar to the right-wing talking points.

[blm]

37. No. We don't know yet how it was presented to Kerry on 60 minutes.

I gave Clark the benefit of the doubt on his words, and expect Clark camp to do the same on this.

[Justice]

25. Amazing

the number of low count DUers we have in the last few days with tough names who have a single focus to undermine Wesley Clark.

I think Dole is just a small and bitter man. Clark wasn't reacting as much to the general to colonel remark - he was reacting to Dole telling him - face it - you are going to lose.

Dole was slimy - I am telling you as a friend, you are going to lose.

Dole did not treat any other candidate like that - not Howard Dean, not Edwards etc.

[Old and In the Way]

30. Is it possible that a Republican could actually have a preference between

our candidates? The fact that maybe Bob Dole worked with Kerry for many years in the Senate, could he honestly perfer to see Kerry as the nominee/President of the 4 running?

My guess is that every almost Republican has a preference for a particular Democratic candidate. Are we going to freak out everytime a Republican suggests or signals a preference for a particular one?

Could a majority of Republicans voicing a preference for Candidate Y just as likely be an indicator of the nominee who has the best chance to unite the country or will we simply assume that Mr. Rove has orchestrated away the free will of every Republican?

[Timahoe]

48. yes it is possible

I remember rooting for McCain in 2000 to win the primaries. Better to have my second choice as president than my worst nightmare (chimpy)!

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krkaufman]

40. Remember Florida

> but Bob Dole seems to becoming more non-partisan
> the further we get away from 1996.
>
> Remember he was a stron McCain supporter and
> he has no love for Bush.

Whatever his "love"-interest in Bush, he was right there in Florida, December 2000, spouting the "the votes have been counted" BS James Baker spin.

He's a ho-or. And nothing more.

[Loren645]

34. Absolutely. Dole's a dependable Pug attack dog.

They have packs of attack dogs.
The General can expect more of the same.
They're trying to turn his four stars into liabilities.

Don't let them Wes...

[jpgpenn]

35. Dang right it was!

[arewethereyet]

47. of course it was planned

do you think foe a second that anything comes out of Dole's mouth that was not well considered ?

The guy IS a real polititian after all.

[JPJones]

49. It was definitely

planned ahead of time, how far in advance is the question, and were other people involved in coming up with the question.

It was a trap to get Clark to appear to pull rank on Kerry, and it unfortunately worked.

[Shanty Oilish]

52. Here's the transcript, with link

CLARK: I'm the only person in this race who has ever done foreign policy and I know all of the domestic issues, too. It's one thing to talk about it, but if you think of foreign policy it's like major league baseball. I'm the only person who has ever played it and I pitch a 95 mile an hour fastball. I've negotiated peace agreements, I've won a war. I'm prepared to help the country that's why I'm running. I'm not worried about John Kerry or anybody else.

DOLE: We're not -- we're discussing here as friends but I think just politically you just became a colonel instead of a general...

CLARK: Well, I don't think that's at all -- Senator, with all due respect, he's a lieutenant and I'm a general. You got to get your facts on this. He was a lieutenant in Vietnam. I've done all of the big leadership. I respect John Kerry and I like him but what I'm going to say it's up to the voters of New Hampshire, South Carolina, New Mexico, Arizona, Oklahoma, all across this country, and that's what democracy is about. It's your job to handicap the race. It's my job to go out here and do the best thing I can do for the United States of America and that's what I'm going to do.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0401/19/lkl.00.html

[mikehiggins]

55. No. It was just his meandering mind stumbling over some words.

Dole got a reputation for being a wit last time out and has played it as best he could on the Daily Show and other venues.

He was trying for the punchline and stepped on Clark's stars. Clark had every right to take offense at Doles' remarks--they are pretty much offensive to any officer, including Dole himself--and corrected his slight.

The rest of the crap is the stuff we like to call "old fashioned professional politics".

The ganging-on on Clark in the media is nothing new. We've seen it before and we'll see it again.

Clark is obviously finished because he won't win in New Hampshire and I have no idea why all those people insist on sending him money.

Hey, we didn't listen when Howard was invulnerable, and we ain't listneing now. We'll do what we do on Tuesday and then move on.

That's how this game is played.