I have lost faith and trust in Democrats...this nomination process is lame

[Bread and Circus]

Seriously, do we have any conviction? Is our primary process
designed to win the General election or is it designed to maintain
the status quo?

I think it is fine Kerry had a big win in Iowa.

But what makes me really wonder is how after nearly a year of
campaigning, 1 week has switched the spread by a wide margin
to Kerry. Kerry is now up by 20 points?

It makes no sense and suggests a sheep mentality rampant throughout
our party. Kerry is a fine candidate and a fine liberal. I
have no problem with him being the standard bearer. It's just
that our party seems to be filled with such fickle fair weathered
friends it is pathetic. 2 weeks ago, he was on Death's door,
now he is unstoppable?

We need to change the system and here are acoupla things I propose:

1st) We need to give up this New Hampshire/Iowa dyad of power
that selects our candidate. We need to replace it with a nomination
process that uses the contestable states as testing ground for
our candidates. This should vary from 4 year election cycle to
4 year election cycle depending on how the states went in preceeding
elections. That way, we can see just which candidates are likely
to do well in the General election.

2nd) There should be one day where many states vote at one
time to kick off the primary season. Right now, Iowa, with the
aid of the RW corporate media machine, may very well select our
nominee. This whole idea of "momentum" is a media phenomenon where
the news is making the news, rather than reporting it. Yes, some
say that all those pancake breakfasts and door to door campaigning
is "what Democracy" is all about. Yeah, but why is is that Residents
of only 2 (not necessarily representative states) get spoiled
every cycle and the rest of us agonize. Also, I believe in the
notion that you play like you practice. The Big One is fought
and won as a 50 state contest. This obsession w/ two rural states
bears little resemblance to gameday.

Right now, we just don't have a rational system, nor do we seem
to have a rational base of voters. Yes, it is rational to vote
for Kerry but why has this only been an acceptable conclusion for
one week, when during the other 12 months, he has been a side thought?

Anyway, I feel very disenfranchised right now. Disenfranchised
first and foremost by the media, secondly by the antique machinations
of our party, and thirdly by voters that seem to be sheep at best
and lemmings at worst.

This post is meant to be constructive as well as stir emotion.
I hope the mods don't ban it because I think we need some discussion
about this and less about the politics of personal destruction.

Edit: This post is NOT, I repeat NOT, about Kerry or any one candidate. How can I make it more clear. It is about the process
of picking the nominee. Our current system
is not rational nor is it strategic.

Sheesh.

[styersc]

1. I guess your candidate did not win in Iowa.

.

[beawr]

2. I LIKE IT

I always wondered why two of the whitest places on earth have such inordinate power in our selection process.

On the other hand, Iowa and New Hampshire have NOT been great predictors of the eventual nominee of either party...

I like your idea, it helps us pick a better candidate.

[Yavin4]

3. Why Kerry Won

I believe that he won because he's a much, much tougher campaigner than anyone gave him credit for, including me. The man has been in politics for a long, long time, and he knows how to pull out a campaign at the last minute. Also, you're putting too much faith in polling. People change their minds at the last minute all of the time. Most people don't focus on their vote until a week before the election.

As for switching from Iowa to N.H., if you do this, you will get far more establishment pols running for the nomination because they'll be the only ones with the money and the wherewithall to run in national primaries.

[Outvoicer]

4. Is Kerry another Mondale or Dukakis?

I like Kerry, but to me he is part of the old style Democrats who always lose.

His support of Bush's war in Iraq and his constant effort to play Bush's "you aren't a true patriot if you didn't support the war or our troops" rhetoric makes me want to barf.

Add to that... he isn't the most telegenic figure in the world. His face looks like it is melting and some have described him as looking like "Death warmed over."

Can this guy really win the election against Bush?

I fear that Democrats are headed for another loss reminiscent of Mondale or Dukakis.

Dean has passion. Clark may be the only one who could tower over Bush in the election.

But the Democrats are gonna stick with the same tired party liners...

and lose like they usually do.

That's what I fear anyway.

[blm]

6. You obviously don't know Kerry. Your post sounds like tired lines from

internet message boards where too few are really knowledgeable about the candidates they smear so callously.

[Outvoicer]

18. you obviously don't like dissent huh?

Someone brings up serious concerns and you accuse them of "smearing" YOUR candidate.

Not impressed. Tell me why he can beat Bush and has a better chance than Clark.

I have serious concerns about Kerry's electibility...

But of course, If I'm not old-school DLC I guess my concerns don't matter...

Maybe I should vote Green instead?

Do you want to convince me... or make me not want to support him or any Democrat? What a bizarre scorched earth policy you have.

[blm]

21. No, I don't like misrepresentations. Your post was full of them.

It sounded like you never researched Kerry and his work over the last 30 years.

He is the ONE man who has exposed more government corruption than any other lawmaker in recent history. Why would anyone not see that as an important defining factor on who Kerry is?

[Outvoicer]

30. I know what Kerry has done ...

and as I said: "I like him"

BUT my point was regardless of how wonderful he may be, I don't think he's electable over Bush.

I think he comes across as representative of the Democratic Washington Establishment and I don't think of him as an outsider.

I fear that he will be set up for a fall.

IMHO, the party can only win this with new blood.

It's all suggestive, I could be totally wrong and I would love that.

But I just don't see Kerry beating Bush. I see a trainwreck waiting to happen.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Kipepeo]

53. I don't think Kerry can beat Bush either

I share your fear that Kerry can't beat Bush. When I hear him speak it sounds too polished and calculated and the bottom line is that I don't feel any passion...he doesn't inspire me in any way and I am afraid that he won't inspire tuen-out from people who have become disillusioned with politics. I think some people are voting for him because they think the *next* guy might vote for him over Bush, when in reality he isn't the 'next guy's' favorite either. I think people need to vote with who inspires them.

I also think the conservative media is giving Kerry a lot of good press, compared with their obvious hatred of Dean...which makes me paranoid that they really *want* him to be the contender because they too think Bush can take him easily.

I think my paranoia began though very early on when we kept hearing in the media that the Bush camp really wanted to be up against Dean because that would be easy for them. WHY would they ever tell us who they think they could beat? That's just stupid. It convinced me they were a little afraid of Dean if they'd go so far as to try and make it look like they *wanted* him. In contrast, my dad in SC tells me everyone he knows is talking about how the Bush camp is *afraid* of Lieberman and Kerry and how they don't want to go up against either of them. Again, *why* would conservatives be putting that out there if the truth weren't the opposite? In my mind that screams: of course they aren't afraid of Lieberman or Kerry! They want us to think that and nominate one of those guys!

I think what they are afraid of in candidates like Dean, is the unpredictability and the passion they inspire. They don't know how to fight that.

On the other hand, I think Lieberman and Kerry are the types of opponets they feel most comfortable taking on because they know how they think and work.

Just my 2 cents.

[rainy]

8. Kerry is owned by corporate American lobbiest

he will do their bidding in the WH as did Clinton. Dean was hope. The media killed him. Now, Edwards is our only real hope in beating corporatism. You know it is true. Skull and Bones = Corporate globalization.

[blm]

19. Kerry is the most ANTI-corporate of all the candidates

other than Kucinich.

Dean was the MOST corporatist, advocating for deregulation of industries throughout his career as governor.

[Walt Starr]

24. Have you looked at the donations?

KErry has been in the telecom industry's back pocket for years.

He's a corporate tool, IMO.

[blm]

38. READ IT ACCURATELY, Walt. That was his BROTHER'S coworkers

who donated over an 18 YEAR period. Less than 1 Pioneer in 1 election cycle for Bush.

Kerry's brother's law firm represented 1 client who happened to benefit along with other telecom companies in Boston.

Why misrepresent the facts to smear Kerry? The numbers prove how ETHICAL Kerry is. You chose to spin them to smear Kerry.

[Walt Starr]

41. Tell me about Kerry's history with telecommunications

I'll wait...

[blm]

48. That was 1 year of the telecom bill. 1996.

YOU want people to believe that his brother's coworkers donated for 18 years to get legislation that favored one of their clients in 1996. Yhe whole Boston tech corridor benefitted from that bill.

YOU prove where there is a quid pro quo because THAT is what you want people to believe and you know it.

Did he promise his brother no more wedgies?

[rainy]

25. But what about the money Kerry gets from lobbiest and corps?

He is skull and Bones and I believe to the secret org. there is no difference if Bush or Kerry gets in the WH. Clinton was for Corporate Globlization now Kerry. We need a real outsider. Do you agree?

[blm]

36. Kerry has NEVER taken corporate pac money.

The money from his LARGEST contributor is just over 200,000 and that is his BROTHER'S COWORKERS at a law firm and over an EIGHTEEN YEAR PERIOD. Bush gets that from 1 Pioneer in 1 election cycle.

Geez...try some perspective.

[Walt Starr]

40. According to opensecrets, you're wrong

So far in this cycle, $48,084 in PAC contributions:

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/summary.asp?ID=N00000245

[blm]

43. Wrong. That money is from individuals who work in those companies

but they are NOT from organized pacs.

If any pac money found its way to his campaign this year it's an aberration.

Look at his entire record from ALL his campaigns, Walt.

[Walt Starr]

44. You are not convincing me, blm

As far as I see things, Kerry is just another corporatist out to do the bidding of the corporations. If you look further back, even more money from corporatists.

You're free to believe what you will just as I am.

On Edit:

Just listing Kerry's top donors in this cycle according to opensecrets with dollar amounts:

Skadden, Arps et al
$97,650

Citigroup Inc
$70,200

Piper Rudnick
$68,250

Mintz, Levin et al
$63,300

Goldman Sachs
$62,500

Robins, Kaplan et al
$62,250

Hill, Holliday et al
$50,750

Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance
$50,250

Harvard University
$47,750

Morgan Stanley
$39,500

Clifford Law Offices
$36,000

Bain Capital
$35,500

International Profit Assoc
$34,250

Holland & Knight
$32,950

Akin, Gump et al
$32,550

Fleetboston Financial
$32,000

UBS Americas
$31,550

Hale & Dorr
$30,200

Sullivan & Cromwell
$30,050

Thornton, Early & Naumes
$29,000

[PVnRT]

47. So what?

Are you telling me that donations from "individual people" at Enron to Bush are somehow different? When it happens to Kerry, it's OK, when anyone else gets them, it's corrupt? Sorry, doesn't work that way.

[blm]

49. No. There are corporate pacs that donate collectively.

So do unions and special interest groups. Go check out Kerry's whole record. The news networks did, trying to trip him up, and they failed to find anything.

[Outvoicer]

27. I agree ...

a nomination win for Kerry is a vote for the same ol' corporate run DLC...

We're back to running Republican lite versus a Republican. Bush will win by default.

There really does appear to be no difference between the two parties anymore. They are just 2 sides of the same corporate coin.

The Democratic party is resistant to change for the better, it seems.

i'm not sure about Edwards. i like him, but again am not too positive about his electibility (due to his youth and, supposed, inexperience). i'd definately support him if he gets the nomination.

i like Dean best... but I think Clark may be the only one's whose credentials give him a leg up on Bush.

i sure hope the Democrats don't just hand another election over to Bush.

That, for me, will be the end of the Democratic Party in my eyes.

[Walt Starr]

12. I think the Dukakis campaign will be looked upon fondly

after the defeat Kerry will suffer.

[blm]

5. The problem is message boards like this cause people to MISCALCULATE.

What really happened in Iowa is that you MISCALCULATED the impact post 9-11 of the fire fighters and veterans and how the GENERAL PUBLIC feels about their involvement with and preference for Kerry's candidacy.

Once people started to focus on the primary and the candidates, Kerry's credentials, ads and the efforts of fire fighters and veterans TRUMPED the efforts of internet message boards.

Reality.

Be glad that you have a REAL liberal candidate whose record matches his rhetoric and who fire fighters and veterans will work their ASSES off to get elected.

[democratreformed]

10. I would like to believe what you say

But that doesn't explain all the switching on this very board simply b/c this one did well or that one didn't do well. How much of that goes on in the real world?

[democratreformed]

7. To quote you:

"It makes no sense and suggests a sheep mentality rampant throughout
our party. Kerry is a fine candidate and a fine liberal. I
have no problem with him being the standard bearer. It's just
that our party seems to be filled with such fickle fair weathered
friends it is pathetic. 2 weeks ago, he was on Death's door,
now he is unstoppable?"

The sheep mentatlity does seem to be substantially held up by the events of the past (part of a) week, doesn't it. It is frustrating to me as well. I wanted to believe that there were just a bunch of "closet Kerry supporters" beforehand who suddently stepped into the voting arena; however, events right here on this forum seem to support that the sheep mentality has more to do with it than I am comfortable with. Oooh, and that' so discouraging.

As far as the nominating process goes, I guess we'll see how it goes from here on out. This is my first race to really pay close attention, so it is nervewracking to me.

[blm]

13. Gary Hart said it many times: Who's the number 2 guy for most people?

Because it's the number 2 choice that many end up with. If supporters of 3 other candidates mostly have the same number 2, well, that number 2 then is likely to be the winner at the finish line.

[MoonRiver]

9. We should all vote at the same time. This system is madness!

The only thing that results from our current presidential nomination process is chaos. Instead of all these primaries we should have many more debates that are moderated by DEMOCRATS, not rightwing media bottom feeders.

[buff2]

11. I thought the same thing........

I just told my husband this morning,"I don't get it...Kerry wasn't drawing the crowds like the other candidates now all of a sudden he's the man???" :wtf: The repukes and the media whores are choosing our nominee. They have trashed Dean all week with no let-up in sight and Kerry is getting all the positive coverage.Everytime they think someone is a threat to their king,they destroy them. They will do it to whoever is the nominee so fasten your seatbelts it's going to be a long,bumpy,and treacherous ride. Phukin repukes and their media whores... :argh:

[rainy]

14. Dean is the real mavrick

he said media should not be allowed to consolidate any more and should even be broken up in some cases. Now he has pissed media owners off and anything that the pundits want to sling his way will not be stopped. Of course we know everything anti Bush is immediately stopped by media owners.

[blm]

15. Was it OK with you all last year when the media dumped on Kerry

and declared his candidacy dead for months? His fundraising was hurt badly by that perception.

Do you suppose the media was misrepresenting both Kerry and Dean last year? Was Dean really as hot as they wanted the country to think? Was Kerry really as dead as they wanted the country to think?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Crowds mean nothing

Ralph Nader was packing stadiums throughout his campaign. Hell, Dukakis attracted huge crowds.

Now IF (and I don't know the truth, although I have anecdotal evidence) the Dean campaign mistook legions of out-of-state supporters for a real grassroots, then the Kerry victory is understandable.

I was blindsided, too, because I saw a lot of Dean signs in Iowa, Still, when I doorknocked, the largest single group by far was undecided. The "don't know yets" outnumbered the advocates of any candidate by at least 2 to 1.

Say you're not a political junkie, but an average Middle American voter. Some obviously out-of-state volunteers come to your door and hand you a lot of literature and maybe even a lawn sign. They go away and you never see them again. When you actually arrive at the precinct caucus, there's the fire captain, someone you went to high school with, urging you to vote for Kerry, and the guys from the VFW post also urging you to vote for Kerry. In that kind of an environment, the memory of the energetic volunteer from Vermont doesn't stand a chance.

It looks as if the Dean campaign didn't or couldn't identify and convert the real opinion leaders in the local communities. (I could say the same for DK's campaign, obviously).

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

16. Although I want Dean to win

I'm not disappointed in the people who gave the victory to Kerry, because as far as I can tell the choice was informed first and foremost by a desire to beat Bush, and apparently a lot of Iowa voters believed Kerry is the man for that job. I think a Dean presidency would be very good for the country, but if the main impetus behind the collective decision of my party is simply to beat Bush, I have a hard time impugning that. Wanting to be rid of him is an extremely worthy goal in and of itself.

I'm still hoping Dean can pull it out, but if the majority of the Dems want Kerry, for whatever reason, I can't really bitch. It's a democracy and that's the price we pay for having one --- we have to live with the choices of the collective. Most of the time, anyway.

[waldenx]

17. its not just democrats

its all americans.

They don't know what they want.

They are afraid and gullible.

They deserve what they get.

[Bread and Circus]

33. Perhaps that's true, but we need to change, starting with the Democratic..

Party.

[Zinnola]

52. Family Doctor

I agree with you. The Dem party is repug lite and if they keep putting up the same tired old DLC approved candidates, the DEM party will continue to lose.

I support Howard Dean first, General Clark second for the nominatio.


I guess I just like those outsiders trying to change things in Washington.

[Walt Starr]

20. It's Corporatist Democrats vs. Corporatist Republicans

giving a facade of two parties.

Who wins?

Corporations!

[blm]

22. Kerry and Kucinich are the two most anti-corporatist candidates

in the race.

[Walt Starr]

26. Kerry is the corporatist's choice

He's been in the back pocket of the Telecom industry for years.

[rainy]

29. I'd love to believe that, Can you prove it? Edwards takes no

lobbyists' money. Prove to me about Kerry's anti-corp stance. I find it hard to believe.

[Walt Starr]

35. I fear Edwards' ties to the DLC

and the DLC is a corportist tool, IMO.

[blm]

42. You NEVER researched Kerry before you smeared him?

Go to his site and read his record.

www.johnkerry.com

Kerry has the record closest to Wellstone's of ALL the candidates. He helped draft the Kyoto Protocol for 10 years that the corporations fought.

He is the one who linked dirty financial institutions ti the CIA and international governments. BCCI, IranContra and CIA drugrunning was uncovered by John Kerry. The establishment HATED Kerry.

[VolcanoJen]

23. Oh, c'mon. It's New Hampshire, that's all it is. Look at the schedule...

Anything can happen in the 30+ days between New Hampshire and the big-state Super Tuesday primaries. New Hampshire grabs headlines, but doesn't have a perfect record as a predictor of the eventual nominee.

30 days is an eternity in American politics. Nothing is over, nothing is decided, everything's going to change. On February 3, Clark and Edwards are going to likely receive their first primary victories, and then all eyes on Michigan, and what comes next.

Hold tight, familydoctor. And take a look at the upcoming primary schedule, which is pretty mindblowing, really:

February 3 - First Real "Test" of National Viability
Arizona
Delaware
Missouri
New Mexico
North Dakota
Oklahoma
South Carolina

February 7 - Two More Big Population States Weigh In
Michigan
Washington

February 8
Maine

February 10 - More Southern Tests
Tennessee
Virginia

February 14
Nevada

February 17
Wisconsin

February 24
Hawaii
Idaho
Utah

March 2 - Day of Days - Super Tuesday - The Big One!
California
Connecticut
Georgia
Maryland
Massachusetts
Minnesota
New York
Ohio
Rhode Island
Vermont

March 9 - Still Undecided? Let's ask Florida. (yikes!)
Florida
Louisiana
Mississippi
Texas

March 13 - Hey, You Never Know...
Kansas

March 16 - Ask Clinton How He Felt After Winning Illiniois
Illinois

[Tinoire]

54. Jeez! I hate your candidate but can I raise a toast to you?

You are always so fair.. so gracious. I am glad DU has people like you. Our disgareements about candidates are nothing.

Sheesh.

Thanks for being here and I really mean that!

[VolcanoJen]

55. Tinoire, more than any other DU Day, this means the most to me.

Thank you so much!!!!!

You are really, really the sweetest, and your comments today mean very much to me.

I LOVE ALL OF OUR CANDIDATES, and I agree with Carville that we have, for lack of a better phrase, some "Prancin' Studs" out there.

Just another great day to be a Democrat!

Thanks, Tinoire.
:hug:
- Jennifer :-)

[Blue_Roses]

57. where did you get

this schedule... I want to check out some dates for a few more states not on this one.

[Cogito]

28. Don't feel bad

It is not that Democrats are sheep it is that this year more than others in recent memory there is only one issue in the campaign: who can beat Bush. This is a very difficult question to answer and most voters are only now learning about the candidates. So, naturally, as voters learn more large blocks of voters switch allegiences. Even events like "the scream" which in and of themselves are media events without much value in learning about what the candidates will actually do are nevertheless relevant for primary voters. That is because primary voters must worry about how perceptions of the nominee will affect his electability.

The media is another story. They are just interested in generating gotcha moments because those are what draws audiences.

[CrazyRP]

That's a stupid reason to lose faith in Democrats.

It's important for us as a party to see who these candidates truly are. Look how Dean is in a downward spiral as people realize that he just isn't fit to President. The primaries give us all a say, plus they drag out dirty laundry that the candidates can respond to BEFORE the Republicans get ahold of it.

[Printer70]

31. Primary process has become art of selecting GOP clone

thanks to the DLC, corporatists, and now militarists who have assumed control of the party. The relentless attacks on Howard Dean have been the latest slap at progressives who want a clear contrast to the GOP.

[CrazyRP]

34. Who exactly are you talking about?

I don't see any DLC type candidates besides Joe Lieberman, and he is slowly withering in the polls. All of the candidates seem clearly progressive when it comes to taxes, health care and all the other issues that are important to us.

Please enlighten me on which candidates are Republican "Lite".

(BTW...Some of you might remember me from my several thousand posts as rpf113. I'm waiting for my password.)

[blm]

50. Go look at Dean's record in Vermont. Corporatist thru and thru.

.

[Printer70]

58. Name one governor who didn't offer incentives to businesses...

to do business in his or her state.

[HFishbine]

32. "sheep mentality"

That's not what NH voters are known for. There may be a few surprises on Tuesday.

[Bread and Circus]

46. What I mean by sheep mentality is going from Dean way...

ahead to Kerry way ahead so soon w/o anything really changing
except perception.

To me, that is "sheep mentality"

I am sure there is nothing genetically special about New Hampshire.

Nonetheless, our current system is broken.

[dorktv]

39. The "front runner" is currently getting a nice ride from what

I can see in the Conservative Media. This too will change because it happened to Dean when he was the "front runner."

[leyton]

45. Kerry's swing in the polls

You may have thought Kerry was on death's door. You must not have been listening to all the people who said, "no votes have been cast yet."

Grassroots do not a President make.

[ACPS65]

51. I think it's a great system.

This has been an exciting month.

[Indiana Democrat]

56. Sheep, sheep, sheep...

Yeah...Everyone is a sheep except for those who support YOUR guy.