An impeachment hearing would spell disaster for us in '06

[Writer]

I want it. You want it. What Democrat wouldn't like to see Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice strung up before the press, having to answer questions on the Downing Street memo?

But just as the White House would be strung up before the press, so would Democrats. And as 2006 approaches, what face, then, would appear before the cameras? We would say: "brave political heroes." But many also will say: "angry obstructionists." Not a good political face for 2006.

The memo bothers me. Not that I disbelieve it - I am very certain that the content is true, but that it has appeared at such a convenient time. It's almost beckoning us like sugar: "use me use me use me." And yes, many Democrats have gotten on board. A couple have even considered its ramifications.

But it is one memo only - no official has stepped forward to confirm it. And the White House isn't looking so good right now. And this White House has notably set up the media before. Something about this doesn't smell right.

So what do we do? Not one politician should make a move on this yet - YET. Practice prudence... but get America talking. Get them talking about the ISSUES the memo raises. Take the focus away from the memo and onto a simple message: Bush lied to us about Iraq.

Otherwise it would be a great political risk to cast aside foresight and follow our salivating jaws straight to an impeachment hearing. If we truly want to expose Bush's true colors, I recommend patience, Grasshoppers.

Writer.

[Zynx]

1. You can't pass impeachment through the House without (R)'s anyway

So I disagree that it would be a disaster - if the House passed impeachment, one would presume there was at least some bipartisan weight to the charges.

[bunny planet]

70. I think we must also concentrate on forcing Delay out at the same time

we focus on the Downing Street minutes. He is the lynchpin in this crime family. Lots more intimidated Republicans will be relieved to be rid of him and if Bush is then proven to have committed high crimes and misdemeanors (which we all know he has) they will be more likely to cooperate in order to get rid of the big bad apple that is our Preznit.
Delay has to go. We can't forget about that, the heat was on him and he's been out of the spotlight for a week or more. Next week, after the deep throat media circus dies down we will have the results of the MJ trial as a new weapon of mass distraction. Eyes on the prize, get rid of Hot Tub Tom and the rest will fall, I feel it in my bones.

[calimary]

71. Yes. And when anyone tells you (like a Barbara Boxer staffer did to

me on the phone a few minutes ago) that - well, it won't happen, republi-CON controlled-Congress dontcha know? I just dismissed that flatly.

It was when REPUBLICANS in Congress, House and Senate, finally got behind the idea that their president was manifestly proven to be a crook, and that the situation couldn't continue, and that America couldn't go on like this with Watergate every day - nothing else could get done, that public opinion was mushrooming against Nixon, and that it was getting bad enough that he might take THEM down with him, they got with the program. It was two of them from the Senate, including I believe, Barry Goldwater, who finally went to Nixon and told him he was going to be impeached if he didn't resign, that the numbers just weren't there for him anymore, that pushed him, finally, to resignation. It was when the REPUBLICANS fell in line behind the Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee and realized they had to face this full-on, that something good finally happened.

BELIEVE ME: bush doesn't have to run for anything anymore. (Except cover, maybe.) But every two years, ALL of Congress and a third of the Senate has to beg their constituents to be allowed to keep their jobs. THEY still have to be mindful, eventually, to public opinion because their asses AND their jobs and all those perks and all that power and influence are still on the line. And if they sense that the overwhelming majority of people want this, or else it might mean their own job security, they'll buckle. They'll find some way to rationalize it, but they'll cave.

[katty]

102. bush/cheney until 2009?ponder that horror...and now

the DSt.Memo released close to the time that suddenly, we FINALLY know the identity of Deep Throat?! hmmmmmm....the DSM is, as one poster stated, begging to be used. when mega press whore Larry King is allowed to have Dan Rather on his program for an entire hour (when DR has been banished from the radar since the election)something is 'up'.
King was doing his usual question baiting and coddling, but questions bolstered Rather's credibility?! so now Dan is credible? a few months ago he was the scum of the earth...

[EVDebs]

77. What ? The current bunch of R's support LIES, Deception and BS

TRAITOR !!!!!!!!!

[quaoar]

2. An impeachment would bring a backlash

Just like in 1998.

[sniffa]

4. it shouLdn't

impeachment on made-up charges vs. impeachment on Lying us into war.

[Zorbuddha]

9. I agree. When all the dirty laundry is aired

the entire Country will feel slimed by the Bush administration.

It will be time for a new day in America.

Republican congressmen will jump ship, or go down with it.

[Thrasybulus]

12. Simple matter of right and wrong

An unjust impeachment would bring a public backlash as demonstrated by the partisan witch hunt of Clinton in '98.

A justified impeachment will bring public support such as forcing Nixon's resignation in '74.

Does anyone argue that a shrub impeachment is unjust?

[katty]

104. Not unjust-bush acts out his crimes with the delight of child

utterly carefree, guiltfree - after all he is the son of Prez, he is part of an american dynasty-he can do anything he wishes.

[NMDemDist2]

114. welcome to DU Thrasybulus

:hi:

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[meppie-meppie not]

35. finally! someone speaking with balls and conviction, TY.

[calimary]

66. We are NOT backing down. PERIOD. TOTALLY!

Soooooooooooooooo... then I guess what Writer is saying in the original post is that - um - er - maybe we should just - uh - (cough) go about our business and never mind, and just let the status quo stay as is. For fear we ruffle somebody's feathers in '08...

...and let hypocrisy and lies and betrayal and violation of our Constitution (that The First Dog-Dropper SWORE to preserve, protect, adn defend - yeah, THAT Constitution) stand...

...and allow the war crimes to go on, in effect VALIDATING THEM AS OKAY, because we finally were presented with the smoking gun and did NOTHING about it. That must mean we're actually all just fine and dandy with what went on, and see no reason to seek redress, no less justice, or even answers (other than some fairly substantial upcoming invocations of the Fifth Amendment).

If we just give this one a pass and shrug and go back to our daily lives and don't pay it no nevermind, then that will REALLY tell the world what we are made of, here in America. That our "leaders" can commit HIGH CRIMES and TREASON, and, well, we're all okay with it.

What bush and company have already said about America is BAD ENOUGH. What we, then, say about ourselves in our willingness or unwillingness to seek redress on this - will say a HELLUVA LOT MORE.

[meppie-meppie not]

69. well fucking said!! hear, hear

:yourock:

[quaoar]

111. Welcome to DU, tmorelli

I can see that you are a thoughtful and considerate poster. I will take your suggestion to have a hot poker shoved up my ass under advisement. Thank you for your concern.

You have a good day now. :)

[renaissanceguy]

62. Riiiiight

and the Repugs went on to win more Congressional seats.

Backlash, indeed.

[quaoar]

84. Wrong

The Republicans lost five seats in the House in 1998 and had no gains in the Senate in an off-year election in which the president's party historically takes a significant hit.

[zann725]

145. Backlash...schmash-lash! No wimping out! Let's fight the way THEY would

this once!

[Occulus]

3. Well, THIS was predicted!

I see the spin has already begun.

[meppie-meppie not]

38. ya and it makes me want to

:puke:

[tex-wyo-dem]

5. Then let us be the "angry obstructionists"...

If impeachment is really in the cards, and I have my reservations whether that's really a possibility as we are the minority, then the MSM will be forced to cover it in excruciating detail, which will finally allow the American people to see the truth and make up there own minds based on facts...or maybe I'm just too optimistic.

[meppie-meppie not]

24. why isn't there shouting out to get a grand jury investigation into this?

Screw impeachment that would just end in Cheney at the helm and that's a darker version of the hell we are already in. The whole fucking lot of them should be tried for TREASON which is what they did deliberately lying to the public and policy makers to get us into war. I realize that the Attorney General is their own but if enough pressure is brought to bare on him he would have to convene a grand jury or what about a "special prosecutor". There as not been one fucking moment of pressure on the President to appoint anyone. I think back to all the screaming and pointing that went on to Clinton because of P. Jones and Lewinski and here thousands are maimed and almost 1700 dead and nothing!

[EVDebs]

79. IF THIS BE TREASON, LET"S MAKE THE MOST OF IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[meppie-meppie not]

86. my point exactly! enough bending over, stand up for what's right!

[markus]

6. Impeachment could only start on '07, & only if we took the House

I think that it's more pratical to marginalize and make a lame duck of Bush once it's clear to a majority of the American people that, to put it as politely as possible, he can't be trusted.

In addition to DSM, there is the report today (see Truthout.org) that we went to war a full month before Congressional authorization.

But we can't impeach without the House.

[Frederik]

7. "no official has stepped forward to confirm it."

It's not a "memo", but the minutes of a meeting, and it's authenticity is not questioned. It made an impact on the British election recently.

Many officials have stepped forward and confirmed that the Boosh administration wanted to invade Iraq from day one. Richard Clarke has confirmed that Bush himself wanted him to tie 9/11 to Iraq on Sept 11 or 12 2001. Paul O'Neill, Bush's first Treasury Secretary, has confirmed that the adminsistration was searching for a pretext to invade Iraq since the day they took office in January 2001.

There's no talk about impeachment yet except from Ralph Nader. Kerry has not used the "i" word. I don't think an impeachment is in the works before after the 2006 elections, if they go well for the Dems.

[Karenina]

75. Minutes...

DOWNING STREET MINUTES - OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MINUTES OF AN OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT MEETING

[thoughtanarchist]

8. If the memo was a rove plant it would have gotten media attention

from day 1

[Atman]

15. Excellent point!

Why would Rove try to fake us out again, but then not have the Corporate Media parrot it ad nauseam? The fact that it has taken this long just to be discussed is pretty telling.

Besides, people, this isn't anything Rove can fake. It is official transcripts of official government meeeting, NOT a "memo" scrawled on some office letterhead. This is the real deal. As real as it gets.

[tridim]

10. What you're suggesting is exactly what they're doing

They're building a case. It seems to be very effective to hang the threat of impeachment over their heads in the mean time.

[SlipperySlope]

11. Better make it good

There will be no more than one opportunity to impeach Bush. If the Democrats do start impeachment proceedings, and fail to see it through to a successful conclustion, then the entire effort will be seen as a "losing exercise" by the public. There won't be a second chance.

The party has to make sure that it doesn't pull the trigger until it is sure it can hit the target. We need to put together the biggest bullet we can before that time.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NMDemDist2]

117. welcome to DU SlipperySlope

:hi:

[DearAbby]

13. So let the chimp and company off like good team players... Its not a game

This cabal is guilty and should be impeached for the good of the country. Save human lives, to stop the torture, they are guilty of War Crimes! Do it because it is the right thing to do. Not for political gain.

Its not a freaking football game, We may loose 06. But the country would be better off...and I don't think that would be possible...a whole lot of things would change...information on how the extreme right tried to power grab, for profit. costing human lives. the majority would be appalled to vote anything republican. a New party within the Republican party would have to emerge. Frist, delay and those likes will be stained with the crap...On the other hand, what should be thought out, is the timing for it to succeed.

[meppie-meppie not]

44. I missed this post initially but it's a damn fucking good one, TY!! But

for me impeachment is too lame because Cheney would just pardon the assholes. I say put the whole fucking lot of them on trial for TREASON which carries the death penalty and given the thousands dead and the world stability in ruins because of their TREASONOUS LIES for greed, I say the only fitting sentence.

[LuPeRcALiO]

14. nah.

They kept Clinton hamstrung for what, 4 years over first nothing and then nothing? It's the sideshow that counts, not the votes.

[LuPeRcALiO]

21. p.s. don't worry, whatever happens

it'll beat helping Georgie ram his "second-term agenda" up our bums.

[marions ghost]

141. LOL yeah give em some big distractions

while they're trying to do that.

[devilgrrl]

16. Yeah, let us just sit right back and let * run roughshod over the country

I'm so sick of the passivity of the left, when the fuck our we going to drop the gloves... patience... phooey!

BTW, love your Norquistesque post! :puke:

[musette_sf]

43. "Norquistesque"

very funny... I thought the same thing myself when I read the original post... :puke:

Oh yeah, and that "grasshopper" stuff hahahaha.... makes me think of a Beavis & Butt-head episode... "But Master, does not the fire need the water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"

[Dhalgren]

18. Have we become so frightened of the all-powerful

Republicans that even when a "smoking gun" is handed to us we think, "The Republicans have rigged this somehow, and we will be made to look bad". If this is rigged by the Republicans, they would have had to be able to fool the "Times of London" and employ the services of numerous British government officials - many of whom share little love for Republicans. These British politicians and government officials would have had to willfully risk their jobs and their careers and their livelihoods - all for the benefit of Bush's Republicans. I don't see it.

We can always cut and run away whenever we think that the all-powerful Republicans are getting really mad, but we should at least try to do what is right - just on occasion - even if it means we may look bad to someone, somewhere...

[zann725]

146. Good post. Agreed.

n/t

[longship]

19. would ==> could

I agree that there's a danger with talking officially of impeachment.

However, the DSM is not just a memo. It is the official minutes of a secret meeting between the top Brits which should carry somewhat more weight than some staffer memo. It is a very important document to be surfacing. So saying the DSM is a memo only is like saying the Nixon tapes are only recorded noise.

There is political risk in anything the Dems do. Maybe the operable question is whether we should stand tough and oppose CuckooBananas and his troop of lunatics? It's unfortunate that that means standing tough against the M$M, too. But just maybe it's time we did both.

I recognize the risk. But when do we draw the line and say, "No more." Isn't the danger of holding off part of the problem? Haven't we let these nuts gather too much power already? It's difficult to know which way to go. Maybe the wisest thing to do is to not overanalyze things and to sieze opportunities when they come up.

Just my opinion.

[Generator]

30. Thankyou! great post

It's a document of what the British highest foreign war council KNEW were the intentions of the Bush administration. And then lied and lied and lied about to the American people and the congress.

It's basically saying, Bush is going to war with Iraq, what should we do? It's the ultimate insider DOCUMENT from our top (and in many ways only real ally) in this war folly.

Yes it's convienient timing-it was timed to oust Blair. Whom I might add has basically confirmed it as authentic.

And has my husband so cheerily just said: He's not OUR president-let them sweat it. They aren't impeaching our president.We have nothing to lose. Nothing. 2006 is no magic bullet. There will be no more Democracy in this country unless we bring Bush and the neo-cons down.

Whether impeachment, fraud or merely public opinion of what frauds and liars these crooks are it doesn't matter. The real story is what needs to be told.

[meppie-meppie not]

It's time to stop worrying about risks and start standing up for what's

right. When I think of what these people have done, the thousands maimed and thousands dead and for what? Lies to promote their greed, it's TREASON plain and simple and fuck impeachment, they should be on death row for TREASON.

[Dhalgren]

147. You are goddamned right! Well said!

[Al-CIAda]

20. EXPOSE the REAL memo, the PNAC! fuck...its ALL there-

SIGNED, sealed, and DELIVERED.

THAT is the REAL smoking MACHINE GUN!

[jaxx]

22. You're kidding, right?

Why would we let the memo/minutes go like the other scandals? Plame, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Gannon/Guckert, WMD's........still nothing on any of those, and why? Because the media and WE sucked up the "it's somebody else's fault" and let them off the hook. They all just faded away, unanswered. Don't let this happen again.

[meppie-meppie not]

29. fuck impeachment

they should all be on trial for TREASON because what this memo is evidence of and all the rest you mentioned supports.

[jaxx]

32. That works for me.

[renaissanceguy]

64. Exactly.

Why the hell should we sit back because the mean old Republicans might call us names? FUCK THAT! The more time we let pass, the more they will be able to cover up all this shit.

[Radical Activist]

25. No way. There's a big difference between this and the Clinton impeachment

The difference is that there's a lot of information we don't have yet. A real investigation will uncover more evidence, more scandals, and more bad headlines for Bush. Imagine every few weeks we have a new story about a new example of corruption and deception from the Bush administration. The media would finally not be able to ignore it because it will have the legitimacy of a Congressional hearing.

After weeks of headlines about proof that Bush is a lying hucksters, all but the 1/3 of the public that are his cult following will realize the truth and vote Democratic in the '06 election. This will help us because there is more there if we get a real investigation.

[wiggs]

26. The story is not the memo

The story is the fact that this administration lied us into war deliberately. The story is reinforced by many witnesses and articles going back to 2001 (see Pitt article at www.pdamerica.com). The memo is merely one piece of concrete evidence that offers a chance to tie all the other pieces together.

I'm sure that if there is a will to pursue the real story of an unnecessary war, there are plenty of witnesses and evidence. If we rely on the one memo only, the administration will find a way to attack it or make it go away. We have to look at everything.

I'd like to see Conyers write a COMPREHENSIVE listing of the evidence that the adminstration was planning on Iraq from day 1, including PNAC declarations.

If we do that, then I say full speed ahead on any means possible to change the status quo. We can't be passive, patient, defensive, play by the rules, scared, or nuanced anymore. We have had the winning hand on the issues for five years but the fact that dem leaders have played fair and safe has put us in a deep hole. The Iraq war is clearly another issue the administration is on the wrong side of....let's go nail this one.

And by the way, if this is done right it may stop another invasion in the ME...done wrong it could clear away hurdles for another one.

[MadHound]

27. My my, how few people study history, how many forget it.

The last time there was an impeachment, Clinton, which party did it benefit in the following election cycle? That's right, the party that brought about the impeachment vote, the 'Pugs.

The last time impeachment was threatened was with Nixon. And which party benefitted from that afterwards? Let's see, Nixon resigned, Democrats gained seats in the '74 election, and won the presidency in '76.

Sorry friend, but I think that you flying in the face of historical fact. An impeachment will always help the party that is prosecuting the impeachment.

Don't let fear force you into not using a gift. Rather, stride forth boldly and beat the shit out of your opponent.

[calimary]

80. Don't let fear force you into not using a gift. I LIKE that, MadHound!

Great quote!

BTW, I just called the CNN comment line (an ordeal, anymore, because the conventional number doesn't help - you merely get the recording thanking you for calling and asking you to try again during regular business hours. As it was 11:49am, pacific time, when I finally finished talking to the CNN operator I finally reached, I NEVER make calls like this when it is NOT regular business hours).

The operator who took my call said they'd just started working on this yesterday (YESTERDAY!!?!?!??!?!??!?!??!?!) and that they were going to do a full investigation of it. I said "YESTERDAY?!?!? This was first published in the UK on MAY FIRST. That's more than a month ago yesterday!" The operator said she was aware of that, and that I wasn't the only person calling about this. She said they'd had several calls. I said "several?" She clarified, that was just to her - it was more than several actually, and that the switchboard all told had received MANY calls about it. Which, she added, was WHY they were going to start looking into it.

I further said I was so tired of seeing wall-to-wall Michael Jackson when this was SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT. She said I wasn't the only one with that complaint, either.

So, guys, the momentum is there.

THE MOMENTUM IS THERE!!!

We just have to keep it rolling!!!

Sorry for shouting... but I'M SHOUTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so there! :D

[ClassWarrior]

28. ~yawn~

Never Give Up.

[meppie-meppie not]

31. how can they never give up when they never get started?

[VOX]

33. You "recommend patience?" Why don't we just sit around and carve soap?

C'mon, man. We're not "Grasshoppers" here -- most of us have been doing our damnedest to fight the right wing for the better portion of *our lives*. :grr: And now, the battle has gotten desperate. The very foundation of this nation is giving way under the unyielding weight of right-wing insanity.

Sorry, but when the house is on fire, recommending patience is a bad idea. The country is in tatters, the danger is clear and present, and whatever effort it takes to *save* what remains is a GOOD idea.

[ClassWarrior]

34. I'd like to extend a cordial welcome to all the new posters on this thread

:hi:

NGU.

[meppie-meppie not]

36. ditto!! now lets get the WH killers for TREASON!

:hi:

[wiggs]

37. 2002 article saying the same thing

From Will Pitt's PDA blog (good work and thanks):


Oct. 8, 2002, 10:47AM

Some administration officials expressing misgivings on Iraq
By WARREN P. STROBEL and JONATHAN S. LANDAY
Knight-Ridder Tribune News

WASHINGTON -- While President Bush marshals congressional and international support for invading Iraq, a growing number of military officers, intelligence professionals and diplomats in his own government privately have deep misgivings about the administration's double-time march toward war.

These officials charge that administration hawks have exaggerated evidence of the threat that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein poses -- including distorting his links to the al-Qaida terrorist network -- have overstated the amount of international support for attacking Iraq and have downplayed the potential repercussions of a new war in the Middle East.

They charge that the administration squelches dissenting views and that intelligence analysts are under intense pressure to produce reports supporting the White House's argument that Saddam poses such an immediate threat to the United States that pre-emptive military action is necessary.

"Analysts at the working level in the intelligence community are feeling very strong pressure from the Pentagon to cook the intelligence books," said one official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

A dozen other officials echoed his views in interviews.

snip

There are many other sources of the same thing....get all of it out and on the table. All together, each reinforces the other and any one piece of evidence is less vulnerable. Let's get them all out on the table and go for it!! What do we have to lose?? We are already out of the loop, marginalized, demonized, etc.

[LuPeRcALiO]

39. we can subpoena Powell, Tenet, and Paul O'Neill for starters

In fact there's probably a waiting list a mile long to get in front of that Senate microphone.

[meppie-meppie not]

42. well we already know that Tenet is an able Liar. Add to that list a

cast of British Parliamentarians and their immediate underlings.

[LuPeRcALiO]

46. right, they won't even need subpoenas

at least Galloway won't.

p.s. Tenet will sing like a canary once he's "forced" to, medal of honor or not. He took the fall for 9/11 after warning Junior for months and frankly I'd be mad as hell too.

[meppie-meppie not]

51. the best Tenet could do would be to plead the fifth because to do

otherwise would implicate himself for perjury for his Commission/Omission testimony. I would think.

[LuPeRcALiO]

52. He might but I don't think he will.

He got reamed big time, I mean really big. He'll talk.

[meppie-meppie not]

59. if he did I'd bring the

:popcorn: :toast:

edited for typo :)

[LuPeRcALiO]

61. I'm there

It's gonna be one hell of a show, no doubt about it. High time too.

:toast:

[wiggs]

74. Read his statements carefully

He didn't say it's a slam dunk that Hussein currently has WMD.

He did say that THE CASE THAT COULD BE MADE TO THE PUBLIC AGAINST HUSSEIN WAS A SLAM DUNK....talking about the case, not the existence of WMD.

These guys are slippery

[meppie-meppie not]

85. sounding alot like what "is" is

;)

[me b zola]

131. There are always those deals to coroperate with the prosecution

..in exchange for immunity. In his case, he should be made to return the Medal of Freedom as a condition of a prosecutorial deal :)

[meppie-meppie not]

40. BRAVO!!!! 2 years later and still no grand jury, no special counsel

investigation, still more dying every day and the American people are the most hated and reviled people around the world and why? For fucking TREASONOUS LIES!!

[Writer]

41. Reading all of your posts is such a gas...

I'm wondering when the torches and pitchforks will appear. ;)

[4 t 4]

45. IMPEACH BUSH

IMPEACH BUSH IMPEACH BUSH IMPEACH BUSH

[Writer]

47. LOL

:popcorn:

[meppie-meppie not]

48. not soon enough! Honestly, the elections were stolen in Yugoslavia

and they didn't just bend over, they actually did something about it. We bend over repeatedly and nothing changes. It's time to have some convictions and stand on them or shut up about 2 parties and let the Nazi's roll in complete.

[Writer]

49. Yeah! YEAH! Bring back Che!

BRING BACK CHE! BRING BACK CHE!

[meppie-meppie not]

54. maybe you enjoy the bent over position but I refuse.

[Writer]

58. That reminds me... I think what we need is a large social "movement"

LOL

:popcorn:

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Writer]

68. The funny thing is, I initially wanted to start an honest conversation.

Full of brilliant dialogue and sound debate.

After about 50 posts or so, I realized that such a debate is not possible in this forum. People seem to be rather, er, hacked off and unable to hear an alternative viewpoint.

So, all I could do at that point is sit down, eat :popcorn: and watch the show.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[calimary]

99. Oops! Self-deleted.

I meant this for another thread. Sorry...

[CTLawGuy]

50. The DLC hacks have been counseling patience for 5 years

as we lose more and more every time.

Screw patience, lets go out and stand for something.

If we won't defend our ideas, why should America trust us to defend their interests?

[meppie-meppie not]

53. exactly, TY

[Writer]

55. Actually I am a DLC spy!

:hide:

[CTLawGuy]

56. I knew that already

why don't you do what you are good at and capitulate :P

[meppie-meppie not]

57. give my regards to Rove

[OzarkDem]

110. Yikes!

If true, you all have really gone downhill in the brains department.

Your "brilliant" strategizing was a disaster in 2000, 2002 & 2004. I think I'll take a pass in 2006.

[wiggs]

60. You've got it. Get Carville back in the fold. Cuomo, Kucinich too. nt

[meppie-meppie not]

63. ITA!

[renaissanceguy]

65. Thank you!

This is about what's RIGHT. So what if they call us names? They'll do it no matter what. Right now we're not doing anything, and they label us as having no ideas, no agenda...well why don't we DO SOMETHING and stand for something (i.e. an honest government).

Let them call us names. If we stand for the truth, that will resonate much louder than any old Rove trick.

[meppie-meppie not]

72. BRAVO and TY!!!

:toast:

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chicago Democrat]

100. "Don't be a wuss!" ROFL! :P

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[quaoar]

87. Get a grip

Where does the OP suggest giving up?

He is saying an impeachment hearing would create a backlash out in the country. Which is true. It would inflame Bush's base like nothing else. It doesn't matter how much Bush deserves it.

You can ignore that reality if you like. Or you can acknowledge it and say an impeachment hearing is the right thing to do, so let's risk the backlash anyway.

But all these posts flaming Writer for bringing up the subject are over the top.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Writer]

89. nightfox, why don't you answer Q's question?

That is, "When did the OP suggest giving up?"

[nightfox02]

91. IT is wrong to wait and play political games with our soldiers lives

I am saying it is WRONG to wait. Not saying you gave up for good... People are dying and we have the power to stop this madness. I am saying you are going to LOSE because of your approach. Your approach is 1/2 hearted and weak willed.

To fire up OUR base we need men of action not Republican lite... Proof in point is how this blog has reacted to Conyers... If it were up to you Conyers would be sitting on his ass looking at his Timex and waiting for 2008. I guess if it were up to you we would still have a eunuch like McAullife as DNC chair as well.

Justice need not wait. Truth need not wait.

We need heavy hitters NOW. Not tommorow or yesterday.

Doing what is politically expedient got us into Iraq? Remember?

We have the MIC! Later this issue may die and we will be what SOL... thanks to your appeasement of a bunch of lunatics....

Doing what is right is never a matter of TIMING....let me put that meme out....IMHO if the cause is just the timing is negligible...

Take the rise of Hitler or the inaction of our govt during Vietnam. Both tragedies would have been halted had someone stepped up big time.
This is Vietnam the sequel in case you havent noticed. I am not sure what you read in high school but I read that chapter in world history about 'Nam. It sucked. Our politicians on both sides failed us and 58,000 are now dead. For what exactly? I have been to the memorial and seen friends of mine in tears touching the stone that is all that is left of their fallen friend(s). What did they die for a lie right?
What is history going to say about us and what we sent our OWN children to die for? This is the same situation, and we have what we need to stop it and you are advocating waiting for a more opportune time? WTF?

Please dont let politics blur your ideas of what is inherently right and wrong. Backlash be damned, I will not let another U.S. soldier die from my inaction be they democrat or republican. We are all Americans and do not deserve this shit.

[Writer]

92. Here is my first attempt to engage someone... let's hope this works

I agree about heavy-hitting. We should speak loudly about this issue. I just think that impeachment procedures or hearings will do nothing to further our cause and will greatly weaken us in 2006.

I don't say we completely give up on the matter. I say we work on acquiring the power necessary to truly make a difference in 2006 THEN head into this full force. Further, it would help if we had a few of those moderate Republicans on board, as well.

It simply seems to be the prudent thing to do. And I think it would work. But ALL of us are armchair politicians when it comes to matters such as these. We should remember that.

[nightfox02]

94. Writer I am saying 2006 will be too little to late

For the families of the about let say 25x12=300..300 GI's that will be killed this time next year that is too little too late.

Politically we have nothing to lose... Even if I cared about the politics of the situation we have lost both the House and Senate right? To me that is pretty damn near rock bottom at this point anyway.

Our TROOPS deserve a voice NOW! If we wait we will find ourselves on the wrong side of history among the likes of Chamberlain and McNamamra.

While I appreciate your input, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Writer]

96. Honestly, I don't think that impeachment hearings would stop the Iraq War

Unfortunately, the Republican fools in the White House have shot us into this flytrap.

On the other hand, impeachment hearings would help validate how we feel about the Bush administration and force them to be held accountable.

It's all - all - about politics. I really can't think of a way that pointing attention to a lie would save American lives. We are stuck in Iraq until it comes to some type of closure, impeachment or not.

In the meantime, we need to wrest power from the Republicans. But I really don't mind disagreement on this issue, because I don't believe anyone has the answer. It's all too complicated.

[LuPeRcALiO]

106. they sure as hell would stop SS "reform"

and that's next on the chopping block.

[OzarkDem]

116. Let me see if I understand you correctly

You're saying that holding Bush & the GOP accountable is a bad thing?

You need to get out of Washington DC more often.

[quaoar]

108. Nightfox, you seem to think

that starting an impeachment process will somehow stop the war.

How do you imagine that happening? Because I don't see the cause and effect.

Even if Bush is impeached and removed from office, you have President Cheney. Even if Bush and Cheney both are removed from office, you'd have President Dennis Hastert. Do you think Hastert would call the troops home?

[LuPeRcALiO]

112. what if we also find out that the election was rigged and Kerry won?

can't hurt to ask questions, can it?

[DearAbby]

138. President Cheney? If I recall he is just as guilty as Bush...we completely

clean house, all those involved in PNAC, that attempted this power grab for profit. All of them.

[leesa]

81. Meanwhile, how many Iraqis and soldiers keep dying for nothing??

[CAcyclist]

82. So What?

Are Democrats to be cowed into silence because someone might call names?

So What?

Obstructionist?

What does that mean?

We're on the opposite side - we're SUPPOSED to be obstructionist when the Republicans are threatening to DESTROY America . That's our JOB, dammit.

Unless and until the grassroots starts hollering loudly for blood, nothing will happen. That means us - we need to start right here and right now calling for impeachment and let the groudswell begin.

[LuPeRcALiO]

83. "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself"

"So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.

"In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory.

"I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days."

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres49.html

Let's roll!

[Dr Fate]

90. I just want to see Republicans splitting hairs over what a "lie" is.

That is what will help us in 2006.

[Chicago Democrat]

93. Impeachment Hearings YES!! 2007

Win on the issues.. in Novemeber 2006.

We would need a good majority...



Depending on votes whether to go forward.

[LuPeRcALiO]

105. why would you want to impeach President Kerry?

not that they won't be trying...

[NoPasaran]

95. Bush is not going to be impeached

Anyone who thinks he will be is living in a dreamworld. It sickens me to see so many DUers who are so delusional about this.

[nightfox02]

97. People said the same thing about Nixon and the Boston Red Sox...

It all depends on how we choose to take action on it. Nixon situation was politically stacked in our favor with control of Congress. However, if enough attn is brought to this topic new people might come to the MIC with more damning evidence and momentum will build.

However, we could just say fuck it and watch Desperate Housewives...

BTW the Sox coming back was one of the greatest sports moments in history....

It CAN happen. Like I have said in previous posts. We are where we are today because good people have done nothing. It is TOO easy to throw your hands in the air. When this country really needs you will you answer its call?

We were also quite the longshot against the British army..btw...

[meppie-meppie not]

107. You know, after the 2000 election the elected democrats

basically said "relax, we know the election was fixed and we are going to make all kinds of necessary changes to ensure it doesn't happen in 2004 or ever again" and come 2004 nothing had be corrected and the fix was in yet again. Then Kerry said he would fight for every vote and in the wee hours of the morning he conceded. We've watched the lies and deceptions around the 9/11 Commission/Omission and watched the lies and deceptions take the US into a war and every week hear about the latest body bags to come back. Inaction is literally killing and the truth seems to be relegated to a mythological stature. :(

[nightfox02]

98. Hamilton was out of his league in talking to Jefferson by the way...

LOL!

Just thought i would throw in that jab.. I am a fan of Jefferson and apt to believe that Hamilton's views are slightly flawed with regards to a strong central government....

Declaration of Independence pretty much owns the Federalist Papers..

Sorry, I am a dork. I know.

[ElectroPrincess]

101. But a humble and knowledgeable one at that ... Kudos to making us smart!

[Dr Fate]

103. I want Republicans saying why he should NOT be impeached for lying.

"It's about the lies."

I dont care about impeaching Bush either- I care about '06 & '08.

I want to see Republicans on TV splitting hairs about what a "lie" is.

I want to see them back-track and "flip-flop" on the reasons we are at war.

This memo can add to "scandal fatigue" and go a long way in destroying Bush's moral & political capital.

"Let the chips fall where they may."

[meppie-meppie not]

109. I agree! To impeach Bush means we end up with Cheney and

that's a bloody nightmare not to mention Cheney would simply pardon the little prick. That's why I've always been for trying the whole lot of them for treason!

[Dr Fate]

113. The memo implicates Cheney just as much.

What is he going to say?

"Hey- this was all Bush's plan- I knew nothing..."

[meppie-meppie not]

118. so to impeach a President you can also impeach other officials in

office? Can you impeach an entire administration?

[Dr Fate]

129. Cheney has just as many questions to answer as Bush does.

Thatz all I'm saying!!!

I doubt we can impeach either of them- I just want to see them squirm and hopefully win a couple of election cycles.

[quaoar]

115. Cheney would nuke Iraq

But I don't think you can be pardoned after impeachment and conviction.

[meppie-meppie not]

119. ok...that's right Nixon resigned before he was impeached so Ford giving

him a pardon was so Nixon would avoid prosecution?

[Writer]

120. Actually what happened is that Nixon was impeached

but resigned before the Senate trial and likely conviction. Yes, I do believe Ford pardoned him to avoid further embarrassment.

[meppie-meppie not]

121. I thought he was never impeached, I thought he resigned to

avoid the humiliation of impeachment? I remember when Ford pardoned him my vicar saying "the sod is getting away with it".

[Writer]

123. Here we go, this should explain it...

Turns out that Articles of Impeachment had been drafted, but Nixon resigned before they had been voted on:

http://www.watergate.info/impeachment/

[meppie-meppie not]

124. hence he was never impeached by virtue of his preemptive resignation

I had forgotten that the Articles had been drafted and that his impeachment was so close at hand, thnx for the link and the info.

want to hear a weird little aside?

[Writer]

125. Go for it. n/t

[meppie-meppie not]

127. my licence plate is

it was the only month until he resigned that wasn't giving him a headache ;) 674

[Writer]

128. That's a bit creepy.

Unless intentional... did you ask for those numbers or were they completely random?

[meppie-meppie not]

130. completely random...but it has always made it easy for me to

remember....when I was handed the plate I almost choked..the young gal didn't have a clue of it's significance.

[IndianaGreen]

122. Stop giving a pass to those criminals in the White House!

We are well pass the point of making political calculations. This is the time to stand up for freedom!

[meppie-meppie not]

126. I'd really like to see truth matter for once...it's been so long

[Eloriel]

132. Worst argument ever -- the principle is DO THE RIGHT THING

for the right reasons. And the right time is NOW.

Your entire argument is codependent to the core. What's codependent? It's running your life and affairs according to what others want, to fulfill others' expectations or avoid others' wrath or disapproval, or as a reaction to what OTHER people might think or say about you. Codependent also means one is easily manipulated -- because all anyone who WANTS to manipulate your behavior has to do is pull your strings.

Letting the Repugs control OUR political lives will only get us more of the same. (Haven't you seen that yet?) It's what they want, what they've worked for, and it absolutely astounds me how many people (a) can't see this and (b) are so eager to give them exactly what they want -- our complicity in all their sins and transgressions because we're too afraid to do anything on our own, even what's right.

Dems will never be a force again if the BEST they can muster is weak, ineffecftive, easily manipulated codependent ways of dealing with things.

[ArtVandaley]

133. One big reason not to impeach Bush

Dick would takeover. Maybe the memo would take him down too? Then Denis Hastert is the President.
No matter what we do, we'll still have an arch-right winger in the oval office. I think censuring Bush would be a better move, embarrassing for him but not as potentially dangerous for us.

[quaoar]

135. Exactly

A congreessional resolution condemning Bush's lies would leave him defanged for the rest of his term.

[July]

137. Dick's MORE unpopular than Bush, and tied in w/his choices.

Who says we can't have a double impeachment? That would be newsworthy even to the press whores.

[marions ghost]

134. I want to comment on

your statement:
"Practice prudence... but get America talking. Get them talking about the ISSUES the memo raises. Take the focus away from the memo and onto a simple message: Bush lied to us about Iraq."
------------------------------------

Random thoughts I had after reading that:

1. DU may be the last place in America where people actually DISCUSS The ISSUES. (OK there are a few other notable websites also but not many).
2. When people are totally disgusted, there is even less discussion. They tune out to protect their sanity. Many are in the bunker already with their earplugs in.
3. Unless the big media blasts it, nobody gets the importance of the minutes / memo. However if congress begins to deal with it the media can't ignore it.
4. Investigations with impeachment potential may be the ONLY way to expose the full legal ramifications of the memo, and get attention to the deeper issues.
5. Everybody knows Bush lied about WMD, but they rationalized that away already. So the simple message "Bush Lied About Iraq" is not exactly earth-shattering.
6. Seriously, unless this is kicked up a notch, who's gonna care?

-------------------------------
Even though I am usually an advocate of prudence and strategy myself, this is one time when I say damn the torpedoes. If there is backlash, bring it on. Go Conyers. Go Kerry.

[Stephanie]

136. yeah, right, whatever

bite me

the most criminal administration in the history of the United States, without a doubt. but we should hold fire. just in case. that's worked just great so far. tell Karl I said HI.

[candy331]

139. Disaster is already here when you have Dems crossing the aisle

to vote for obvious wrong policies. Why prop them up, it is time for a cleaning anyway to get people in office who really are concerned with the true constituents(the citizens)and not the corporations. With the Dems caving on the nuclear option and letting those judges be confirmed they have shown that they will not fight for the good of the people and the country. I say roll the dice!Start the impeachment process, high crimes and misdemeanors and on to the World Court for crimes of humanity.

[flaminbats]

140. never fear...Dennis is here!!!!!!!!!

[nightfox02]

142. i would take hastert over bush

the lesser of the two evils for sure....

bush and the cartel must lose power....look at what he already has DONE

For Christ's sake come on people

We have the freakin Antichrist and we are arguing that if we boot him we will simply have another Republican?

Do we wait until his head starts spinning and latin starts coming out?

[flaminbats]

143. I think impeachment in 2006 is the least of our worries...

:eyes:

[ngGale]

144. My patience ran out a long time ago...

I never thought impeachment was possible considering who would replace Bush. At this point I don't care, it will discredit the whole clique, corrupt bunch. The Downing Street memo convinced me that impeachment is the right action to take. Galloway taught me one could actually talk back to these people. Now, before it's too late.
What do we have to lose, another Diebold election?:sarcasm:

[salin]

148. politician's number 1 rule: protect your own %ss

If the public pressure were to get high enough (and things would have to get a lot worse for that to be the case) - there would be repubicans who would act for fear of their own political lives... this would be more like Watergate (with huge public outcry - and those acting republicans being seen as 'heros' and others ending up getting ousted) than like the Clinton Impeachment (which the public didn't support - and was supported only by a cadre of vocal republicans.)