Dean is NOT a progressive

[Don1]

I will surely be flamed by all the Deaniacs, but I cannot keep this information back any longer. Dean is not liberal. He is not a leftist. He is NOT a progressive. Dean is a centrist.

While Governor of VT
- Praised Clinton's air strikes and economic policies against Iraq.
? Implored Clinton to send troops to Yugoslavia.
+ Was a strong proponent for universal health care.
- Was in favor of Clinton's welfare "reform" and actually started it in Vermont 2 years prior to the federal implementation.
- Loves the criminal justice system as it is. He said, "95 percent of people charged with crimes are guilty anyway so why should the state spend money on providing them with lawyers?"
- Spoke out against the Kyoto Protocol and was more pro-business than pro-environment.

While Campaigning for President
- Claimed to be anti-Iaq-war, but said we must stay in Iraq for national security reasons. He said, "I think our freedom is what they find so threatening, our freedom and the power that I think results from that freedom."
- Was not in favor of cutting the military budget.
+ Claimed to be for universal health care.
? Had Soros support some of his bloggers.
- Confessed to being a moderate.

While DNC Chairman
- Said the party should be inclusive of pro-lifers.
- Said he hoped Bush was successful in Iraq.
? Got some good amounts of money from Internet donations.

I will be the first to say that I loved Dean's claim to want to implement universal health care. I also loved his claim to be against the invasion of Iraq originally. However, it is worth looking at the broad picture and it is worth it to be objectively critical here. Dean by his own actions and in his own words is a moderate.

So why is Dean so popular with you? I am a progressive, and I do not like his stances. I doubt you are on the Soros payroll to keep cheering him, so what are the values that attract you as progressives? Don't give me the superficial jibberjabber about taking back the Democratic party, because given the above, it could really be about keeping the party the same as a Hillary Clinton would. The only difference may be getting more Internet donations from the nebulous "grassroots."

So what's the deal? Please be specific and keep a good level of discourse. I have. Thank you.


Note:
+ means seems to be a progressive stance to me;
- means seems to be anti-progressive to me;
? means seems I am not sure what this means.

[coloradodem2005]

1. Because he's a cool guy.

I could see myself having a beer with him. After having had a few, I am envisioning that right now. :P

[alittlelark]

2. Uh, yeah....

discourse.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Don1]

7. Thanks for proving my point.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saltpoint]

4. Dean's chocie of electives during his college years give a --

-- glimpse into his progressive temperament and training.

I think the fact that many stalwart party regulars are afraid of him is another indication that he's ahead of the curve, and on the left side at that.

Governors must govern from the middle.

[Radical Activist]

6. his choise of electives in college?

LOL
You're kidding right?

[janx]

71. I don't know what those electives were, but if they

are interesting, Old Crusoe might have a very valid point. I do know that the books Dean says he has enjoyed most are (to put it mildly) both serious and somewhat eclectic. They are not what you would expect, and as a matter of fact, they're not even books that most non-literary people would recognize. It's clear that these literary selections were not chosen to resonate with the masses.

He's well read.

He seems to be broadly educated, which is rare these days. That's probably what Old Crusoe means. I'd love to know.

[saltpoint]

103. It was indeed my point, janx, and right now I'm trying to find the article

-- with Dean's courses.

If I find it I'll post it.

[Don1]

8. You're joking.

Right?

He took a class in communism or something and so that makes him a liberal.

Actually, that was pretty funny. Thanks, I get it now.

[Radical Activist]

5. I know. He's a doctor who plays a progressive on TV.

He uses good frames that appeal to progressive Democrats. Its the dark side of Lakoffian techniques.

Personally, I've never understood why so many progressives picked a moderate who doesn't share their values to lead them.

[Don1]

36. I think I get it.

He was always superficial and screaming in his campaign. He was not afraid to yell and that got people thinking he was defending their viewpoints. When he said he wants to take the party back, the left-side thinks he is speaking to them.

(Oh yeah, and all the alleged Soros funding of Internet blogs and sites to promote him specifically to this target democrgraphic.)

(On Edit: I am half-kidding about the Soros stuff.)

[Radical Activist]

82. That's basically it.

Saying he's from the democratic wing of the Democratic Party and talking about how he's going to take the party back from Bush-lites certainly gives the impression that he's a progressive. The remarkable thing about the Dean campaign was their ability to accurately read the mood and feelings of primary voters and then reflect that in his campaign rhetoric. In that way he was able to give the impression to progressives that he was with them without actually being one himself.

[The Doctor.]

9. Not sure I understand your code system....

Does a "-" mean he did support such a statement in anyway?
Does a "+" mean he did not... or vice-versa?
So then what does a "?" mean?

[Don1]

11. A note on codes

I'll add a note to the op. Thanks.

[The Doctor.]

44. Thanks for clarifying...

Now I can ask a question or two...

I heard Clinton on NPR yesterday afternoon addressing the question of that same "welfare reform bill". Who were the original authors of that bill? What was the congressional makeup?

Unless I am mistaken, he said that it would pass despite him. Is Dean an author of said bill?

This:
"- Claimed to be anti-Iaq-war, but said we must stay in Iraq for national security reasons. He said, "I think our freedom is what they find so threatening, our freedom and the power that I think results from that freedom"

OK - that's a little creepy considering the proximity to party line, but...

Perhaps the core assertion is true... "we must stay in Iraq for national security reasons"...

Do you have any reason to doubt that?


"-Said the party should be inclusive of pro-lifers"

I still don't see where 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' are diametrically opposed. I am both for sure, but I would never be so arrogant as to legislate a value of mine on others.

Honestly, I can't see how implementing a 'pro-life' attitude by those who would like to see the proceedure remain safe and accessible could cause harm.
"Think of every possible outcome first, then decide..."

I happen to know many pro-choicers who are also pro-life... but know better than to assume that what they believe is best for all.

And this...

"- Said he hoped Bush was successful in Iraq."

Sorry, but as much as I understand the temerity, hubris, and incompetence of this administration, I cannot hope that a 'democratic and free Iraq' as bush said, would not emerge.

I would be thrilled to see a stable and Democratic state rise up there... but sadly, I know better.

As for the rest... I have to agree.
Other than that...
He's my kind of Guy.

(I'm a moderate R)

{oe}- Sorry... no hurry, take any time you need, I'm truly interested about what you have.

[Don1]

72. Thanks.

Thanks for trying to likewise be objective and stick to issues. I cannot comment on the welfare reform stuff. I do not know if Dean helped to craft the Congressional bill.

As far as Iraq, I have opinions. You are free to disagree. Dean is free to disagree as well. Furthermore, in defining our positions, we show ourselves to be left, right, or centrist on that issue.

First, I am all for democracy in Iraq, but even more basically I am for the freedom of the people. It makes no sense for me or my government to hold a gun to an Iraqi's head and say, "You must be free and here's how we will set up your government." The vast majority of Iraqi people are against the occupation and so it makes no sense for us to declare they are a democracy if we do not respect their rights of self-determination and self-governance. We have no right to pre-emptively declare ourselves the determiners of Iraqis' fates when they do not even want us there. And it is NOT democracy that we set up there either. It is a capitalist republic with virtually no social reforms, massive foreign ownership of Iraqi industry, 70% unemployment, and more than 50,000 Iraqi children dead.

Second, yes, our government lied about the WMDs, but we must look further as to the reasons why. Just as it is most of the time, it is about money. It's about Halliburton, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, ESSI, Custer Battles Inc, and a buttload of oil. Claiming that this is about "national security" is only true if "national security" is synonymous with "security of the military industrial complex." That's the reason that we are building forts there and it's the reason that the Woolsey Amendment to set a timetable just failed in Congress.

Finally, check out progressives' stance on this issue. Woolsey, by the way, is a progressive. She is a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Progressive Democrats of America also put forth a petition to send to Dean. It differs with Dean's stay-the-course-for-national-security philosophy where it says that it is "an occupation that is aggravating the situation and making all of us less safe." Here is a link:
http://www.pdamerica.org/petition/iraq-exit-petition.php

[neweurope]

10. Being German I won't go into details, don't know enough. BUT

"95 percent of people charged with crimes are guilty anyway so why should the state spend money on providing them with lawyers?" - That's heavy. The "being innocent until proven guilty" - and the help provided in proving that someone is indeed innocent or that there are at least mitigating circumstances - are one of the major characteristics that tell a free society from a tyranny. I find it pretty scary that nowadays even a Democrat thinks so - and says so out loud. And at a time where people are disappearing in gulags at that...

--------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[bitchkitty]

65. I never heard that - do you have

a link?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

90. I second that...Please provide links that support your post

If you're paraphrasing his comments, there is some subjectivity involved.

Please direct me to the transcripts of those comments you cite. Thanks in advance. MKJ

[bitchkitty]

93. Hmm, looks like this thread wasn't really

meant for discussion, just another flamebait hit and run type of thing.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

95. I think you're right..I'm using my 999th post to ask again for links, Don1

MKJ

[Don1]

113. Google It.

It's really easy to find the source. The quote comes from Peter Freyene, a Vermonter who followed Dean's rise to power closely. Freyene wrote a column in a Vermont newspaper back in 1996. You can read what he wrote here:
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2003/11/101838.shtml.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

123. I'd like to show you an example of citing credible sources when posting

You paraphrased other sources without dates, links or direct quotes.

As the OP, it is your responsibility to back up your statements, not the readers of said post.

MKJ

This is something I posted earlier to support the statement I offered in the heading:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1828454&mesg_id=1828454


If you want to speak so authoritatively on a subject, you should be prepared to offer objective information, without getting defensive. MKJ

[Don1]

124. Defensive?

I had to defend myself because it was said in the response I responded to that I disappeared and was flamebaiting.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

125. I'm not the only poster who remarked on your my way or the highway

approach.

However, I asked multiple times for links, since they weren't included in the OP. As far as your concern about my location in the thread; it behooves the OP author to track responses regardless of their number in the thread count.

I continue to repeat the same point; if one is going to make any argument, credible, independent and objective data is essential.

MKJ

[neweurope]

107. To you, also: No, I don't have a link. I was quoting what

Don1 wrote. I was answering him. Or do you mean do I have a link to somebody stating that the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" is what separates free societies from tyrannies? If so - no, I don't, and I won't bother to find one. It seems to be self evident.

By the way: If somebody does not answer right away it might have something to do with different time zones rather than an unwillingness to answer. I'm in Germany; I'm at DU in the early mornings and the late evenings. In between I have a life.

------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[neweurope]

105. I'm confused. Do I have a link to what? I quoted a quote from

Don1. Or do you mean do I have a link to somebody stating that the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" is what separates free societies from tyrannies? If so - no, I don't, and I won't bother to find one. It seems to be self evident.

By the way: If somebody does not answer right away it might have something to do with different time zones rather than an unwillingness to answer. I'm in Germany; I'm at DU in the early mornings and the late evenings. In between I have a life.


-----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[bitchkitty]

117. Oops, sorry! :) n/t

[Mairead]

106. It was something he said during an interview while (lt?) governor

It's associated with his cutting public-defender monies. Here's one reference, though both unsourced and unchallenged.

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002051.comments.html

You can probably get a full cite from a Lexis search.

(edit) http://kcindymedia.org/newswire/display/968/index.php
It cites an article from the 30th October '03 issue of Time as source

[PsyOpsRunsOurCountry]

101. Thanks for your 'Remember Fallujah' line. There is NO rationale.

I know a college teacher who mentioned Fallujah as an example of mass slaughter like the Roman Empire and the young adults just stared back in complete ignorance, not knowing what Fallujah was.

"War is how Americans learn geography." Or not...

[lady lib]

12. Yes, he's pretty moderate based on his history.

I like him because he knows what he stands for, can articulate it, and has passion for his beliefs. That doesn't mean I ONLY like him. Last night I saw John Edwards on CSPAN and was reminded of how wonderful and inspirational he is.

BTW, it looks like you put a lot of effort and thought into this thread. I hope you get the quality of responses that you're requesting.

[Clark2008]

17. See... I never got this "Edwards is inspirational" stuff.

To me, he sounds like any street corner preacher down South. They're a dime a dozen down here.

I mean, I guess Edwards is OK and means well, but he's not a leader, in my opinion.

On the subject of Dean being a moderate - um, DUH. Only the *cough* "librul" media is delusional enough to believe he's some flaming liberal.

[PittLib]

32. I got to see both live ...

sorry ... I'm just so excited to have attended that conference.

[lady lib]

37. Really? I'm jealous. So what did you think?

What were they like in person? (I want lots of adjectives :))

[PittLib]

53. Honestly ...

The big speakers were okay (Dean, Edwards, Jackson) but they didn't really say anything new. Sure their presence was exciting ... but people like Bill Moyers and Kim Gandy (President of NOW) were more effective and truly inspirational. Dean was immediately called out in the news for his comment about Republicans' "honest work" ... taken completely out of context. Edwards was sincere and charming as ever ... updating us on Elizabeth (she's doing well) and advocating against poverty. (Every time I see him smile, I flash back to my first volunteer experience ... I was sent to pick up some toiletries for John and sort of stressed out over selecting the future vice-president's toothpaste flavor). Don't get me wrong ... they did a great job, perhaps I've just gotten used to hearing them and it's beginning to sound the same. They seemed to be on tight schedules, so I didn't even try to fight the crowd to talk to them.

The conference itself was an incredible experience.

[lady lib]

74. It sounds really amazing.

Thanks for talking about it a bit.

:hi:

[PittLib]

86. I'll post more about it later ...

and I met 3 other DUers who I'm sure will have much to report. I'm still reeling a bit. I met so many incredible people, I can't even begin to describe what it was like to be surrounded by such a like minded, energized group. I am more optimistic than ever. :hi:

[Singular73]

13. Because Dean is nuts enough

to shake up the system so severly, it would have to completely reinvent itself.

[CTLawGuy]

14. this sums up my reaction to your post

"? means seems I am not sure what this means."

[Don1]

26. Lieberman, who cares?

Lieberman is quite right-wing in the Dem party.

Dean is slightly to the left of Lieberman. He is a centrist/moderate.
I have proven this objectively. You did not address this. All you did was talk popularity.

If McCain is more popular than Dean would it make McCain a progressive, too? Please. It makes no sense.

Please stick to the issues and the values that define what it means to be progressive.

[CTLawGuy]

80. why are you referring to my sig pic?

its just a sig pic and has nothing to do with my post.


Dean isn't very liberal, he is a moderate. But, unlike reactionary moderates like Biden and Daschle, Dean is a fighting moderate. And, if this makes any sense, Dean is pretty left for a moderate due to his position on health care and IRV (which he is in favor of).

Liberals like Dean, even though he is a moderate, because he has the courage to stand up for our prinicples. He wasn't afraid to criticize the iraq war. (personally i think being against the war IS a moderate position, and being for the war is ultra right wing.)

Contrast that with Traitor Tom (Daschle) who bent over and let bush fuck him in the ass because Traitor Tom was scared of being called unpatriotic. And of course the four congressional Dem pres. candidates went along with this bullshit. And Dean wasn't afraid to say what he felt.

[Don1]

94. My mistake.

Sorry about that. I thought you were somehow saying Dean was progressive because of his popularity over Lieberman in my home state.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. It's fine that some people are pro-moderate, pro-Dean, and like him because he is a fighter.

We just need to keep explaining that, because many people are trying to say he is not a moderate here.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. I have gotten used to being more progressive than the

politicians I support.

Dean's big plus is that he is a solid dem. A moderate, perhaps, but one who is willing to stand up the repubs, and who isn't afraid of a fight.

We need someone on our side who is willing to hold his own against the fascists while we collect ourselves and find a progressive who can really speak for us. Supporting Dean we will stop losing ground and maybe gain a little.

I prefer a populist moderate who can stand firm to a left progressive who will either cave or get run over.

We have to fight the way the repugs fought -- incremental gains, and never giving ground. It will add up, after a while.

[Don1]

28. This is a Good Value.

And it does help the cause. Dean does stand up to the Republicans.

However, he is arguing for moderate stances. He is not a progressive.

[expatriot]

16. Claiming to be "moderate" while running for US President? For shame!!!!!

And also, I can't believe he publically said that he wished Bush would be successful in Iraw while DNC Chair... if ONLY he'd have said that he hoped Bush would FAIL MISERABLY in Iraq I am sure that would do WONDERS for the Democratic Party's image with the American people... I am sure the Republicans would be at loss on how to counter such a politically savvy comment.

[Stampy52]

19. thank god

for the pragmatic approach. i'm drunk and i make more sense than this post.

[bitchkitty]

66. Oh, please -

if he'd said that we'd never hear the end of it. "DEAN WANTS U.S. TO FAIL IN GIVING FREEDOM TO IRAQ!!!!!" I can just see it now...

[Stampy52]

18. the party

should be inclusive of pro-lifers. we are a pro-life party, that is, we do not want life to waste away. we want to prevent abortion. to me, that is just smart framing.

prochoice and prolife are compatible.

and a negative for wanting success in iraq? please.

be real. you hurt the progressive movement. do not wish for failure in iraq. it might be quaint or perhaps you think it helps your politics, but people will die for your success. failure in iraq is more death.

you did not really quantify dean's definition of "success"

also, just consider the fact that the man was running for POTUS.

stop and think. be real. then get back to me.

[Don1]

22. Your points say nothing.

Kucinich stuck to his principles. He is a progressive. Dean is a moderate.

And you can ask anyone in Vermont:
http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

[saltpoint]

41. Stampy52 HAS asked everybody in Vermont. I SAW him do this.

Stampy52 undertook an EXHAUSTIVE survey of every man, woman, child, dog, cat & goldfish in Vermont and asked them to their faces to characterize their former governor.

Each in kind responded that they felt Dean was a progressive. Sensible, fair, professional, accomplished, progressive, refreshing -- these were the sorts of responses received.

Kucinich is a progressive. Dean is a progressive. Dick Cheney, as Kim Jong-Ill has indicated, is a "bloodthirsty beast."

There ya go.

[Stampy52]

87. what is the point of this?

or is there one? if it was to bait me, congratulations on your very limited success. may your life be blessed with more successes on such a level.

personally, i don't really care what every person in vermount thinks, nor have i ever claimed to, nor have i ever claimed to be privy to such information nor have i even implied such a thing.

you sir, are silly.

[saltpoint]

102. The post was in support of your position, Stampy52.

You misread it.

Another possibility is i didn't write it well, but in any case the intent was to support your position against the notion that you should someone have asked the voters of Vermont about Howard Dean.

I attempted to use exaggeration to support your point which in my opinion stands on its own without your having to ask a living soul in Vermont.

[xxqqqzme]

20. there are a number of issues

I do not agree w/ the good Dr (Israel/Palestine - huge disagreement; staying in Iraq - NO). He got my attention (& loyalty) because he was the first 2 point out that commander koo-koo-bananas' brass was tarnished. AND he was offering alternatives during the primary campaign. He is sincere, earnest and speaks straight from the heart. When he is asked a ?, he answers it, no hemmin' & hawin'. I have seen him in person in a small venue (1), a crazy huge venue(4) and at a dinner w/ the crowd of enthusiastic democrats. He is always himself - no bullshit ever.

Having seen him as a candidate, a campaigner for the democratic ticket and as DNC chair, a defferent different message has emerged for each role and he is at ease w/ each role. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and room 2 re-energize the DNC. I think he can get it in fighting shape again...then we get progressives to run @ the local level. WE have to build the strong progressive base - Dean is giving us the Democratic machine 2 work with.

[Don1]

49. I don't think that I necessarily disagree.

The point has to do with Dean's categorization as a progressive. He just isn't.

[Carolab]

21. I'm as progressive as they come and I've been a Deaniac all along.

Howard Dean has integrity, honesty and cool.

He is intelligent as they come, motivated, dedicated and a true statesman.

People who know Dean love Dean, with a passion.

[Don1]

23. We're talking politics.

Stick to the issues. The Bushies say the same thing about Bush. That doesn't make Bush a progressive.

[Carolab]

29. I'm not saying he is a progressive. I'm saying I know what he is and

have all along and that's just peachy keen with me.

Howard has ALWAYS stated his political bearings quite clearly: socially progressive and fiscally conservative.

Works for me.

[saltpoint]

24. Very much respected Dean's comments on THE DIANE REHM SHOW --

-- regarding jobs and Wal-Mart.

He noted that as Americans line up to buy goods at Wal-Mart for the low prices, they strengthen monopolies which in turn choke competition in the markets.

He said that he would suggest that people should not shop at Wal-Mart. Not very many conservatives or moderates would say such a thing. It was a frame of reference from the left of the dial.

[Don1]

31. Finally, an issue.

He is against these budding monopolies and makes a general stand against them in his rhetoric? Did he say that or just attack WalMart? If he made a general statement, then that should be another plus in his favor.

Not enough to pull him from being a moderate, though.

[saltpoint]

38. --assuming he's moderate to begin with, which is a position I reject.

When a man running for POTUS urges people on a national radio broadcast not to shop at stores owned and run by the richest company on earth, that is not a moderate position.

[dansolo]

25. Progressive != Liberal

First off, being a Progressive is not the same as being a Liberal. The other thing is that Dean never claimed to be a Liberal, and anyone who has listened to Dean at any point in the past two years would have known that. Do you honestly believe that Dean is the same as Hillary? You sound like a Nader supporter (who, by the way, is not a Progressive*) when he kept saying how there was no difference between Bush and Gore.


*Back in 2000, Nader was advocating that the worse things got, the more likely that people would reject the Democrats entirely and turn to him. That is as anti-progressive as you can get.

[Don1]

27. Stick to Issues, Values, and Objectivity

"Do you honestly believe that Dean is the same as Hillary?"

Show me how they are different. She supports universal health care. Her other stances are the same as his.

[saltpoint]

30. Dean's positions during the campaign struck me as less nuanced than --

-- a campaign veteran like Dick Gephardt, for example. This was especially clear in the Iowa caucuses, that is, the weeks leading up to them. The people who responded positively to Howard Dean regard themselves as progressives and were responding to the decidedly progressive resonance in his candidacy. Kerry and Edwards finished first and second, but Dean finished a respectable third. On paper he ought not to have enjoyed any base in Iowa, yet he did beautifully against that standard, even if it was not enough to overwhelm Kerry's and Edwards' appeal. It WAS more than enough to bury Gephardt alive.

The people I knew who voted for Kerry-Edwards in many cases supported them from the start as first-or-second choice, but a good number also liked and volunteered early on for Howard Dean. These are long-standing party activists and they would not agree with your push-poll strategy in mischaracterizing the man.

Dean is a progressive Democrat, whether one likes him or not, whether one volunteers for him or not, and whether one wants him to be the party's Chair or not.

I like him as our Chair & I predict very good things for the party with him at the helm.

[Don1]

33. These arguments are VERY thin.

I am "...mischaracterizing the man"?

I tried to be objective here and include issues and stances.

Please do the same back, if you want to talk about either characterizing/mischaracterizing.

[saltpoint]

35. Don1, your negative feedback on others' responses to your post --

-- is in fact mischaracterizing.

When writers submit their work to editors, one question some editors strategically ask is what is the intent of this poem/essay/interview/etc.

The intent of your post appears to be to defame the Chairman of the Democratic Party. I happen to like the guy and my view that he's a progressive is not an uncommon one; more to the point, I reject the notion that you are the sole visionary possessed of the clarity and wisdom to debunk a public figure.

You know he's popular on DU boards and you posted with the intent of inciting dispute.

[lady lib]

40. I thought he was doing a tweety imitation.

[saltpoint]

42. : )

[saltpoint]

43. Don1, this is perhaps off the political ideology scale a bit, but if --

-- you will indulge me, I will suggest that while we disagree on Dean's position ON that scale, I believe you need to check out my post in the Lounge this evening on Celebrity Hot Dog Eating.

I've compiled 9 names -- all big-time celebrities, so you know you're getting your money's worth -- and have generously provided a tenth choice for 'OTHER' in cases where DUers wish to post the name of an alternate celebrity, feeling that that alternate would perhaps best my 9 choices.

I officially invite you to that thread as a break from politics here in this thread.

____
EDIT: MEANT THIS IN RESPONSE TO ORIGINAL POST...

[Don1]

45. No, sir.

I am a progressive. Dean is a moderate. Dean says he is a moderate and the clearest evidence of it is his actions.

There are many here who have been calling him progressive and I felt it was time to speak out on that subject.

Let's look objectively at the topic.

So far, no one has done this.

That's all I am asking from you.

[saltpoint]

50. Others here tonight have earned their views, Don1. Yours aren't --

-- superior. Your push-poll strategy in your OP is not objective and your negative responses suggest that you don't tolerate opposing viewpoints very well.

"Very thin" points. "No points." etc. Do you really think you alone know someone damned few of us have ever met?

What's the intent of your post -- to debunk the current Chair of the party? To dig up the bones from the primary campaign and throw them around?

The energy that might go to a sturdy and justifiable defense of Howard Dean might do us all more good than a post that intends to tear him down.

[Finder]

135. Hey, I am a moderate AND a progressive...

so I don't quite see what the problem is. Dean is considered socially liberal or progressive and fiscally moderate.(or even conservative)That is how most successful governors are and especially ones in the Northeast.

I guess I am confused why you have extended the list of labels and expect Dean or anyone else to choose just one. Liberal, Progressive, Centrist, Moderate, Conservative etc are just labels and they don't describe the different aspects of political thought fairly. One can be a centrist or moderate when it comes to fiscal issues and a flaming liberal when it comes to social matters.

[Cha]

118. Old Crusoe! Thank you for

articulating what I happen to be thinking(more or less)..very eloquently!

:toast:

[Radical Activist]

83. Yet, other Dean supporters on this thread disagree with you.

Some are saying Dean is a progressive and other are saying that Dean supporters knew all along that he isn't progressive. Others try to change the definition of progressive and claim it doesn't mean liberal because that provides an easy out for Dean. Which group of Deaniacs am I supposed to believe?

If there's so much misunderstanding and disagreement among Dean's own supporters about what he is, doesn't that say something about Dean as a person and the kind of campaign he ran?

[saltpoint]

104. I'm not a Dean supporter, Radical Activist, except as far as he might --

-- have been the Democratic nominee, in which case he would have had my full heart and mind as Kerry-Edwards did.

I do support progressive Democrats over for instance, Lieberman Democrats, and Dean is significantly to the left of Lieberman in substance and style, not to mention loyalties.

Historians, I believe, will position Howard Dean among the progressives in the party, at least through the period of his Chairmanship and certainly inclusive of his campaign for president.

No, a broad plate of opinions does not suggest campaign definition. Lyndon Johnson ran a horrifyingly bad campaign in 1964 and whomped Goldwater by a landslide percentage. Today Goldwater's position would have more significant support and I don't believe Johnson would beat him, or if so, not by much.

The media decided that Dean was a wild man and re-played his "scream" repeatedly to drive the point home, but Dean was clearly trying to rally his supporters, many of them young people his candidacy brought for the first time into the political process. In a word, he made them better citizens and they were crushed by the third-place showing in Iowa, a result that occurred through no fault of their enthusiasm and dedication to Howard Dean.

Historians take note of candidacies capable of inspiring large percentages of the populace and label them progressive. Dean, I believe, will fall into that category.

One does not have to be a smash-the-state socialist to be progressive.

[saltpoint]

34. My grandmother was a campaign worker for Bob LaFollette.

There were progressives back in those days, too, and I think the LaFollette voter would have a great deal to talk about with someone like Howard Dean.

Dean in key aspects represents a professional and accomplished adult who could, if he chose, sit on his butt in an office and collect a very good salary without breaking a sweat. Instead he inspired and earnestly worked for a grassroots organization which he believed was a good and necessary thing in affecting meaningful reform in the way business is done, in the way elections are conducted, and in the way values are approached and represented in public life.

That's one very workable definition of 'progressive.' Dean inhabits it and has both the education and professional creds to back it up as well as the personal, proletarian energy to make it happen.

Not getting the nomination does not preclude his having transformed the way Democratic nominees will be chosen from this point forward.

I'm not a Dean Democrat before I'm a Robert Kennedy Democrat, but very closely following RFK's exemplary model of public life, I find in Dean progressive and enduring qualities I hope for and occasionally find in public figures.

[Don1]

47. "Dean progressive and enduring qualities"

Please list them.

And please list the progressive stances.

Still waiting for objectivity here.

[saltpoint]

51. You'll find objectivity just about everyplace, Don1.

How many thousands of people post on these boards?

Quite a few.

Read over the archives and more recent stuff. Objectivity is here and subjectivity is there and that's the arena we all play in.

Join up and have some fun.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

126. Thanks Old Crusoe, I applaud enthusiastically the embracing of objectivity

And worry when anyone (right, left, center, or isosceles) values opinion over facts.

Almost anyone can find at least one or two facts to back their opinions.

We at DU are lucky to have thousands, if not millions, of pieces of objective information to draw from.

So, it really annoys me when someone just repeats the same thing over and over without giving any credible source or background.

The above message was endorsed by Socrates. MKJ

[saltpoint]

134. Hi, BleedingHeartPatriot. I'm sure I'm guilty of it as anyone --

-- and more so when the topic turns to film or music!

There is more than a little despair that I feel for a set group of voters who actually believe George w. Bush is a Christian. I do have a huge problem understanding that one.

That's why I try to uncork a little on DU Lounge threads such as my current one, the Celebrity Hot Dog Eating Contest thread. Truly a classic. :evilgrin:

You invoke Socrates in your post and Margaret Mead in your signature line. Not a bad combo. In the next life I want to sit next to them at your dinner party.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

92. I'm still waiting for links to transcripts of Dean making the statements

You included in your OP. Please. Thanks. MKJ

[Don1]

116. I gave a source

You can Lexis Nexis if you want to follow up on them.

Don't expect me to notice your posts in the middle of the thread here responding to someone else either.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

127. 123 and 125...hopefully not too much "in the middle" n/t

MKJ

[Castilleja]

39. Yes.....and?

That's not news to Dean people, where have you been?

[Don1]

46. The Dean people

are characterizing Dean as a progressive. This is the issue. He is not.

[The Doctor.]

48. Oh hell, Of course I can agree with that....

No, Dean is a moderate.

Heck... he even has a very nice gun collection.

That's probably one reason he'll be helpfull... if MS America hears him (yeah), then he will have a very broad appeal.

It even seems like painting him as a 'Progressive' is part of the strategy.

Ok, yeah....

[Don1]

52. I agree.

I also agree that painting him as a progressive is likely part of some strategy. It's not one I am going to fall for.

Look, everyone is free to like Dean, if they want to. He does have some good qualities even in my cynical opinion.

But the fact is he is a moderate. It's just the truth and it needs to be said.

[The Doctor.]

54. hear hear!

:toast:

[Fleshdancer]

77. who exactly is characterizing Dean as a progressive?

The only people I know of who characterized Dean as a progressive are those who don't like him...people on the right.

[Radical Activist]

84. Read the rest of this thread

there are several Dean supporters right here who think he's progressive.

[Don1]

121. Exactly!

Stampy52 and others. Read the whole thread.

Some redefine progressive or compromise by saying he is moderate and progressive.

Some say I am bashing him by calling him moderate and he is not, but instead he is progressive.

Some say they knew all along he was not progressive, but instead he is moderate. And they are proud he is a centrist because so are they.

All the supporters seem to agree he is a good at getting campaign funds/organizing, he is a fighter, and he agrees with them.

[CTLawGuy]

81. well lets see..

I'm of the camp that Progressive != liberal

I associate progressive with someone who actively pushes for change as opposed to a reactionary who "reacts" to what the other side does.

Dean wasn't afraid to criticize the war (thats how he got his liberal image)
Dean is in favor of IRV
Dean wants universal health care
Dean signed one of the first civil unions bills (right next to an election no less)

Kerry ran his campaign as a "reactionary moderate"

-Kerry claimed he could have run the war better than bush
-Kerry was for keeping only some of bush's tax cuts

Both those positions are REACTIONS to the positions of Bush. they use Bush's rhetorical frames.

IMHO, a progressive does not try to work within the frames of the other side, but puts forth a positive agenda.

If it were Dean on those two issues, he would have said something like

-The war was a bad idea, we should have used the troops to try to find bin Laden and Al-Quaeda
-It's better to balance the budget rather than have unnecessary tax cuts.

[lyonn]

98. What's with all this labeling stuff?

I listen and I decide, sure don't know what my label is other than Democrat and I know that covers a wide area. That's the way I like it.

Edit: I agreed with much of what you said. I don't have too much of a problem with Dems running for office that are pro-life (?) as long as they don't think we should all agree with them, Dean says it pretty good when he says none of us think abortions are swell, but it's a Choice that women should have.

[Mairead]

109. "I associate progressive with someone who actively pushes for change"

Maybe you should elevate your standards? BushCo 'actively pushes for change'.

How about: 'a progressive is someone who actively pushes for life's risks being socialised'? It doesn't seem to describe the Dean of the governorship or presidential campaign very closely, but I think most people generally regarded as 'progressive' would agree with it, though perhaps they'd phrase it more concretely.

[saltpoint]

55. You refer to Senator Clinton. I think that is an excellent point --

-- in the debate over the future doings of the Democratic Party. Some on DU boards have suggested that Senator Clinton did not want Dean to chair the party because it in some way impeded her path to the nomination. Can't say what the vibe is between the two of them one way or the other, but I definitely think that's a point that should be considered.

You brought it to the fore in this thread and I say more power to ya for it. I would like to be a fly on the wall in Senator Clinton's office.

I ran into a firm Kucinich voter in San Francisco who loved Dennis as much as he hated Bush. The two were separate forces in him, not one thing, not one reaction to political circumstances. He and his son were at an anti-war rally, but all the candidates had demonstrable support there. I walked away with the feeling that if voters in some of the red states could have a conversation with this guy, they might reconsider their support of someone like Dubya.

Kucinich is 5-stars & true blue in my book because of the shit he had to shovel when he was under pressure as Cleveland's mayor, as well as the fire he brought to the campaign in 2004. I was one of the many people who wrote to him before he announced and urged him to run.

[Don1]

56. Seriously.

There were two reasons that I mentioned Hillary.

First, issue-based: they both are in favor of universal health care. They both have moved the same way on the whole pro-choice/pro-life issue. They both are for strong "national defense." They both are pro-business/fiscal conservatives. And even so, as Democrats, they both throw some bones to the working class/social progressives.

Second, politically-based: as far as I am aware, they were in close contact during the whole Clinton regime because of the universal health care issue.

Yes, I would like to be a fly on the wall, too.

[Hippo_Tron]

57. Quite a few of these are bullshit

Yugoslavia - A humanitarian intervention that saved thousands of thousands of lives and didn't have a single American casualty. Progressive doesn't necesarilly = pacifist.

More pro business than pro enviornment - Any evidence to back this up?

Iraq war - How long exactly did he suggest that we stay in Iraq? Didn't he propose a specific timetable for withdrawing troops from Iraq? As far as those comments go, I'm assuming refer to the insurgents. Being progressive doesn't mean that you have to agree that they are freedom fighters. You can disagree with what they are doing and disagree with what Bush is doing.

Cutting the military budget - Have you thought of a simple solution to the military industrial complex? I certainly haven't. Drastically cutting the military budget means thousands of people lose their jobs. Campaigning for President on military budget cuts is a great way to lose. If you realistically want military budget cuts, you don't propose it during an election year, you propose it when people can seriously sit down and discuss the issue without so much political pressure.

Confessed to being a moderate - I'm sorry, labels mean what exactly?

Said the party should be inclusive of pro-lifers - You really need to take a look at how Howard Dean defines pro-life. He has repeatedly said that he means pro-life in a much different way than the GOP means it.

Said he hoped Bush was successful in Iraq - Could you provide some context for this comment? Perhaps he was suggesting that he hopes that our kids don't keep getting killed in Iraq.

BTW I'm giving this a legitimate response because I like good debates, but I'm not all that certain that this isn't flamebait.

[eridani]

58. Policywise, no. However--

--he is very progressive in his organizing style, which is pro grassroots involvement. The thing about his slogan "You have the power" is that it's not too specific. It's up to progressives to fill out the blank slate here.

[Don1]

68. I think you have a point.

While he did not start the recent progressive movement, he certainly participated in its organization and funding. You are correct. He should get a "+" for that. Still, though, the tally points to moderate.

[twenty4blackbirds]

60. His mom said so (Time Ltd magazine, sometime in 2003-ish?)

I was in the Citizens Advice Bureau today, and they had some old Time magazines. Dating from July 2003-ish iirc. The second one I read covered the Dean Factor. In the article it mentioned that Dean's mom said her son wasn't a progressive, and hoped the liberals don't find out.

OT:Less amusingly, the first old mag I read covered post-war Iraq. In the readers opinion section there was some guy writing that Bush had lied the US into war. Below that there was another guy writing that Bush was defending the US by leading the US to liberate Iraq.

The main article mentioned the war-time conditions for Iraqi people. Two years since 'liberating Iraq' I hesitate to think the conditions have improved.

[billbuckhead]

61. I detest Dean with a passion for appeasing the NRA&Confederate

flag crowds. Now Dean says reproductive freedom is a state issue. The ultimate pink tutu Dem.
The way he's played the Iraq war is also disgusting. What's his position today? A very poor choice for DNC and in a Maciavellian sense, the DLC crowd will come out ahead over the liberal wing of the party because his incompetence. This one of the reasons Hillary seem fait accompli, people long for politcal competence.

[NYCGirl]

67. You realize that when Dean talked about reproductive freedom being

left up to the states, it was in reference to third trimester abortions, don't you?

Edited to add transcript from 5/22 Meet the Press:

MR. RUSSERT: Well, the--but several heads of the American Medical Association endorsed banning third-term abortions because they said life of the mother is one thing but the health is a much different issue. It can be defined in so many different ways, it was a major loophole.

DR. DEAN: You know what I'd prefer to see, frankly? I'd prefer to see medical practice boards around the country, state by state--because people do believe different things about this in different states. I'd prefer to see medical practice boards around the country set ethical guidelines for abortion. I don't have a problem with that. You know, I don't know of people who do third-term abortions without a moral reason for doing it, which is to save the health and life of the mother. So let them set some ethical guidelines. But I think this debate ought to get out of the realm of having politicians standing up and grandstanding.

It is an incredibly difficult area. It is an area which is conflicted. I don't know anybody who ever had an abortion who feels, "Oh, boy, this is just great. I can't wait to have another one." That's not what this is about. This is a very difficult, horrible choice. Does the government make that choice or does the individual make that choice? There are ethical constraints around the issue of abortion. There is no question about that. I think those ought to be done state by state. And I think doctors ought to have a lot more say about it than they do now

[0007]

62. I'd rather see ya get a gold star before getting fried.....

but that's just me.

[Used and Abused]

63. I'm a lefty and I like Dean and his message

I don't see anything damning in the points you just posted.

[bitchkitty]

64. I trust him. n/t

[Gyre]

69. Semantics

'So why is Dean so popular with you? I am a progressive, and I do not like his stances.'

So you are prejudiced against Dean, you call yourself a 'progressive' and don't want him to share the same label as yourself. Is that it? If so, your screed seems rather petty.

Since when has America asked you to define 'progressive' in the current political context?

Gyre

[Don1]

73. The argument works both ways.

It is neither petty for me to claim he is NOT a progressive, nor petty for others to claim he IS a progressive. The claim from many here is that Dean IS a progressive. And I invited you all to speak your mind on why you think he is one. Half the time, people tried to answer the questions. Some other times, my motivations got attacked, like now. Let's try to be rational and use some evidence and not fight.

[seabeyond]

70. i always thought he was a centralist. he is also the one texas males

said they could have voted for last election.

[Fleshdancer]

75. You forgot that he signed legislation allowing civil unions

I've been a huge Dean supporter for a few years now and I always described him as socially liberal and fiscally conservative. He's a strong supporter of civil rights even when doing so may seem like political suicide at the time. That takes courage and a strong sense of ethics...two qualities you don't normally see in politicians.

He never claimed to be the liberal that many make him out to be. He's not a pacifist, but he refuses to be paralyzed by inaction when the current administration attempts to lead this country into the wrong war at the wrong time. Only a small handful of politicians had the courage to stand up and tell people this war was a wrong and Dean was one of them. Others include progressive Kucinich and conservative Buchanan. Going against the Iraqi war wasn't out of political ideology, but out of common sense. It just so happens there are more progressives who have common sense than others ;)

There will never be a politician that I agree with 100% of the time unless I become a politician. Having said that, I agree with Dean on the issues more times than I disagree with him. The added bonus with Dean is that I already know he will stand up and fight when very few will. THAT is how all politicians should act regardless of whether they are centrist, progressive, conservative, etc.

[salin]

76. A populist centrist

that can get the public to start thinking about populist - and some progressive ideas again - is an important first step.

The reality is that due to a very long and well orchestrated assualt on the public conversation/psyche - issues that were accepted as 'real' in the early 80s and issues that were considered a bit absurd/silly (eg the wisdom of deregulating everything in sight was considered absurd - which is why the reagan folks did have some restraint, which is not present in todays administration) have changed.

The public, for the most part, accepted the bullshit explanation for the energy crisis in the west - that it was due to environmentalists (no new plants - ergo not enough supply) - rather than corporate manipulation - until corporate manipulation was shown. The happy all corps are good and supply side economics is truth talk/public sentiment was NOT norm 20 years ago. But tons of spitting it out there, tons of repitition, and boom - it is now accepted as "economic reality". Same with endless tax cuts, deficits, etc. Back in the 80s were the scandals of defense contractors fraud (800 toilet seats, etc.) - there was skepticism. Now, there seems to be a great deal of acceptance of the contracts in Iraq - even the overspending as "that is to be expected and a side cost, but nothing to worry about..." (wtf???)

Back in the early 80s the Washington Times was viewed as a fringe right newspaper. No one in washington took it seriously. Now it is considered, by many in the public, as an established, reputable news source (though it is still a rightwing mouth piece, often used to float trial baloons for the right.)

Dean's constant questioning of the GOP status quo (in terms of ideas) and populist style (note that I said style, not necessarily content) - is needed to get more in the public to once again start questioning the falacies which have increasingly been fed to the public to the point where the general public psyche accepts these ideas as "truth."

This is what is needed, at this time, as a step of moving the public conversation back to where it is more open to more progressive ideas.

The most promising thing of current times, imo, is the quick development and mobilization of a progressive response to the republican organizing (eg the Wash Times, the Heritage Foundation, etc.) - we are 20-30 years behind - but we are making much faster progress ... I get the sense that in a few short years we will have created an infrastructure that is equivalent to what it took the right 30 years to achieve.

Dean is not either a hero, nor an anti hero. He does, however, provide a piece of the puzzle in shifting the overall public dialogue at a time when this is desperately needed. There is a role for the new emerging progressive organizations, media and grassroot efforts that is critical for the shift to occur. And a fiery populist spokesperson is a good place to get some in the public a little more responsive (eg shaking the cobwebs out of the head) to those efforts.

[Vyan]

78. I'm a centrist...

And I think a lot of the Democratic Party is - or rather - should be. I don't believe being a centrist means that you are "Republican-Lite", far from it. I means that you mind is open to good solutions no matter where they come from, and that you don't look at things dogmatically. You follow the truth, not some thematic platform. It's genuine intellectual honesty - not partisanship purely for it's own sake. It means you have the courage to not only say when the other guys are wrong - you can tell your own party, when they're wrong too.

Clinton was a centrist, a New Democrat, and that's what made him a Great President.

Vyan

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

79. Policy-wise? No. Party base-wise? Oh, yeah.

All hail marcologico.

:patriot:

[Cha]

128. :)

:patriot:

[Guaranteed]

85. I hope for the best for the Iraqi people, as does Dean.

It would be great if Bush failed in his OUTWARD policy of democracy in Iraq, but I'd rather see things go well.

Dean's definitely a progressive. He's nowhere near a far-left liberal, or even a strong liberal. But he cares about people, their freedom, and their well-being. You can't say he isn't progressive.

[LittleClarkie]

88. A quote from Dean, paraphrased:

"If I'm considered liberal, then that just shows how far to the right the party has gone."

It was the Republicans who sold him as some kind of uber liberal. Apparently the most appealing thing about Dean for alot of his supporters was his boldness and willingness to put himself out there and say things that need saying.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

91. mmmmm...I love your sig pic. n/t

MKJ

[Don1]

96. Bashing?

Half the people here in this thread do not think being moderate is a bash. Do you?

[RetroLounge]

100. Blah blah blah...

:eyes:

RL

[Mass_Liberal]

97. Dean is a progressive

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=progressive

Snip

adj. "Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods: a progressive politician; progressive business leadership."

n. "A person who actively favors or strives for progress toward better conditions, as in society or government."

He fits the bill and you sir, are wrong.

[Willinois]

99. The definition game

always comes up in these discussions. You can fit anyone in under a definition that broad, including many Republicans. The word has no meaning if you don't define it more narrowly in a political context.

[Mass_Liberal]

122. well

we are arguing about whether or not an adjective applies to someone. I'd say that it is relevant to know what that adjective actually means.

[JNelson6563]

108. He's got a spine

and he is a bane to the neo-cons. He's doing what needs to be done with the party as far as growth and grassroots are concerned and he's takin' it to the cons and not backing down.

But you go ahead and parse what you can of his record and in the meantime some of us are out here will continue working hard to help Dean save our pathetically weak party. Better you're in here squabbling on an obscure DB on the internet than out in the real world doing actual harm.

Julie

[BigBearJohn]

110. I LOVE DEAN. A Progressive by any other name still smells as sweet

Dean is my man. And boy, he sure can stand up to his worst critics.
He is no wilting flower, that's for sure. I would hate to debate
the man.

In my book, he is a REAL man. I am in HIS corner.

Call him a "petunia" for all I care. I vote for the MAN
not for the label.



If you assume that there's no hope, you guarantee that there will be no hope. If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, there are opportunities to change things, there's a chance you may contribute to making a better world. That's your choice.
-- Noam Chomsky

[fujiyama]

111. Great

This shit again.

There are Dems that deserve our criticism (and even scorn - Lieberman and Landrui are good examples), but I'm sick of attacks targetted at Kerry, Dean, and others that are sincerely doing what they can to fight the Bush agenda.

[Sparkman]

112. Dean's not far right, Dean's not RW, not far Left, Dean's left of center

[Don1]

132. Please be specific.

You say he is fighting the Bush agenda. I was specific. Please list some things he is doing that fight Bush. I am willing to be fair and admit you have some points. I have done this in the thread before. Again, don't flame and swear at me. Be rational. Thank you.

[Cha]

114. Big Fat Duh,

dude!

[DuaneBidoux]

115. I'm not necessarily a big Dean supporter but

I don't see supporting welfare reform or a military strike to stop true genocide based on religion and nationality (what was happening in Yugoslavia) as inherently non-progressive.

Welfare reform was needed--just not the way it was done. Clinton's problem was that he did it outside of a complete reform of the system that actually provided the tools people NEEDED to stay off welfare and off the streets (i.e., literally living in the streets).

In any case, it is ridiculous to assume that everyone is going to agree on every issue. A couple of your statements about Dean strike me as, if true, really being a problem. You are saying he was against Kyoto and has an anti-environmental record? That comes as a surprise to me, can you give a link or some evidence?

I would be interested in knowing more specifics about the Vermont welfare reform (again, I don't necessarily believe welfare reform is inherently anti-progressive if the real issues of people needing health care, and daycare for their children, plus a living wage, are taken care of) and also, don't forget, that Vermont is, I believe, the only state that has health insurance for all youth. It's hard, in my estimate, to find a more progressive state than Vermont. I would be happy if half of the laws passed in Vermont could get passed in a state like mine (Texas).

[Don1]

130. Thanks for not flaming and sticking to issues.

I agree about Yugoslavia. Actually, I put a "?" there. I do not claim it is either progressive or anti-progressive. I think it might be a centrist position, but anyway, I do not think we are disagreeing much on this one. If you look at some hard left positions, though, like Chomsky's on Yugoslavia, you would see differences here from what I said.

Welfare "reform" is not socially progressive. Trying to end poverty is socially progressive. Welfare reform is just a euphemism for slashing a social program and using that money for other purposes: corporate welfare, war, etc. You remember Reagan and his statements about "welfare queens," right? You remember that stereotype created about these poor mothers doing crack, driving catillacs, and spitting out babies to get more money? Meanwhile, we had Iran-Contra and some of the funding there came from the CIA selling crack to kids in the US. This is hypocrisy of the highest order and its effects are damaging to people's health and life. And Clinton and Dean are both jerks for continuing in that Reaganesque legacy.

For more information on Dean, you can search some leftist sites like counterpunch.org. Use Google advanced search. Here are some examples:
http://www.counterpunch.org/frank01272004.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/frank01232004.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html

[saltpoint]

119. Can't find the article that listed the courses Dean took at Yale.

They are referenced in several anti-Dean sites, though:

1 History of the Soviet Union
2 Soviet Foreign Policy
3 The Chinese Political system
4 Marxist Existentialism
5 International Communism
6 Marxist Theory
7 Reason and Revolution


If you showed Joe McCarthy (or most of my uncles) that course list, a nasty diatribe of Dean would ensue.

At Yale Dean requested to room with Afro-American roommates as opposed to people of his own race and economic background.

My uncles wouldn't have liked that much either.

[bemildred]

120. Populist and little 'd' democratic is what I like.

Policy differences I can deal with if it comes from the people.

[saracat]

129. You are 100% correct. I have been saying this since before the Primary,

much to the angst of some Deaniacs. I do not HATE Dean. I merely state he isn't a liberal . He is a moderate.He says so himself. I kept waiting for his "moderate" DLC inspired roots to show themselves, and they have. He is busy "re framing" everything to make us palatable to the "moderates" and Repuke lites. His approach on abortion is dreadful.We shouldn't have to hide a basic tenant of our platform. And the people dancing around this issue as being both pro choice and pro life, well, that is just dissembling. They are playing a semantics game and it is dishonest. I don't want to be that "moderate" and I would rather NOT have those people( pro-lifers) support us.To me this is the same as having to reach out to Klu Kluxers. And yes, I do feel that depriving women of the dominion over their own bodies is the same as reverting to slavery! Some call me an extremist, but I ask you, what male reproductive medical procedure needs to be decided by a court?
Dean hopefully does NOT represent the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party".He really represents status quo, and the Clinton era compromisers. I wish Dean well with the fund raising but I do NOT like the direction of the Party so far.

[Don1]

131. I agree

"He really represents status quo, and the Clinton era compromisers. I wish Dean well with the fund raising but I do NOT like the direction of the Party so far."

And because he represents status quo, he is by definition not progressive. So, again, when we look at specific issues, we can see a breakdown. Yes, there are some progressive stances. There are many which are not. Overall, he is moderate.

I wish him luck with funding since much of the funding is progressive/grassroots, but I also do not like the direction of the Party. Is he really representing his constituents? No, he is being moderate. It is time for people like us to speak up about it and just call it as we see it.

[Ravy]

133. No, but he DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. (n/t)

[dsc]

136. I notice you left out the thing he was most famous for

as Vermont governor and that would be Civil Unions. It should also be noted that some citation of these quotes would be nice. I know I debunked the one about 95% of people being guilty during the primaries.

On edit Dennis Kucinich and David Bonior were both pro lifers who opposed the Iraq war, Kucinich later changed his position on abortion but he was pro life when he wrote the prayer about the Iraq war.

[Moderator]

137. Locking.

This thread has become inflammatory and is no longer viable.