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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 11:10 AM
Original message
The "Out Now" Philosophy
The Destruction of Iraq
We have destroyed innocent civilian lives. We have destroyed Falluja. (1) Watch the video referenced in the Links section. Additionally, so far, according to a study published in "The Lancet," 100,000 civilians by last November had been killed, even while excluding Falluja deaths! (2) My own estimation is that this would include more than 40,000 children, since the 26 million citizen population of Iraq is 40% less than 16 years of age. (3) The point is that up to November of last year there was an unacceptable level of human carnage and that carnage continues to today. The very presence of an occupying force causes more death. (4) It is a naive perception of what the military's job is in Iraq to claim that they are nation-building for Iraqi citizens. And it is naive to think that the deaths will cease simply by killing more "insurgents" that are created each time some more civilians are killed.

The Progressive Movement is Hindered by Nationalism
The United States is not the greatest nation in the world. The truth is that relative to both personal freedoms and rights in other nations, the United States is not the best. We have a good Constitution and Bill of Rights, but we are sliding backward. We do not promote or analyze fairly new, avant-garde advancements in rights like cannabis legalization, complete acceptance of homosexuality, greater separation of church and state, instant run-off voting, transparent democracy, and more worker rights. For an example of an avant-garde Constitution, see the Links Section. (5) Instead, we fight for what we already have and sometimes we lose. Our rights are being destroyed by the Patriot Act, bizarre election fraud, the Bankruptcy Bill, immigrants being hauled away without due process, and citizens being arrested falsely for terrorism. (6) With respect to standard of living, the US is good, but lags behind many so-called first-world nations. (7) That standard of living is being diminished as economic inequality is on the rise under this as well as previous Administrations. (8) The great Franklin D. Roosevelt's works are being undone in favor of corporate welfare, tax cuts for the wealthy, and the military-industrial complex. The methods of implementation are welfare "reform," education "privatization," MediCare cuts and finally Social Security "privatization." (9) So in terms of domestic social, issues, we are in danger of being below par, even a banana republic perhaps.

Most importantly, though, the progressive movement is hindered by a nationalistic foreign policy that does not treat all citizens of the world as equal. Our foreign policies are atrocious and we have a terrible record of promoting death and regime change (10) merely for sake of convenient alliances and that is the goal of our foreign policy, complete and utter control. Staying in foreign lands, like Iraq, only helps to put up such systems for this control. For example, the construction of forts in Iraq (11) allows for permanent stay as in S Korea...and a corporate framework allowing full ownership of Iraq firms by foreign entities (12) helps to control Iraq as well...and the government set up by the US owes its allegiance to the US, not to the Iraqi people. Fanatical nationalism exists in both major US political parties and its doctrine is "Support the Troops" and the omission of concepts like independently-thinking Iraqis and the omission of evidence like dead Iraqi children and legitimate protests. This doctrine does not allow one to walk in an Iraqi’s shoes and to objectively look at the number of civilian deaths. The tragedy of September, 11th, 2001 resulted in three thousand US civilian deaths, (13) but the tragedy of Iraq has resulted in 100,000 civilian deaths. That is more than 30 times the number of US deaths and it means that Iraqis carry the emotional weight of thirty 9-11’s visited upon them, their neighbors, and their families. Imagine 30 such events on our soil and feel what the Iraqis feel.

Our Responsibility
It is highly irresponsible for the US to use its monetary resources to line corporate pockets (like Halliburton, General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, ESSI, Custer Battles Inc, etc) in this war (14) while meanwhile killing 100,000 civilians, including 40,000 children and hiding all this information from the American people whose interests are allegedly being represented. The irresponsibility is not only extreme violence and carnage against innocents, but it is a 3000-fold violence against their spirits. Let me explain. We have used now approximately $170 billion in the Iraqi war and this has been used over a 2-year period. (15) On the other hand, it costs $24.00 to sponsor 1 child through the Christian Children's Fund for one month. (16) Multiply by that by twenty-four. It costs $576.00 over a two year period to sponsor 1 child. Therefore, if we used the war money to sponsor children (instead of killing them for corporate profit), then we could have sponsored $170 billion/$576 = 295 million kids. Since the 2004 population of Iraq was only 25 million, we are talking about nearly 12 Iraqs. We could have saved 12 Iraqs in that time period! The National Priorities Project estimates that with the money slated for war, "we could have fully funded global anti-hunger efforts for 7 years." (17) Furthermore, we could have saved 295 million/100,000 = 2,950 times as many people as were killed. Yes, that is correct. The U.S. killed an outrageous number of people, 100,000 civilians. But what is more outrageous and what really condemns the whole effort is that we could have saved 3 thousand times that many people! And perhaps what effectively could have diminished world terrorism would have been to help the citizens of the world, rather than hurting them and their families.

Our Rights versus Iraqis’ Democratic Rights
It is a neo-conservative assumption that the United States is the sole world power and the inerrant judge, jury, and police force for that world. (18) All of the above arguments rely on that assumption as much as anything--that our right to somehow judge everyone else unilaterally somehow preempts every other citizen of the world's right to self-determination and self-governance. I have discussed reasons that it would be responsible to leave, but in so doing I failed to mention that we have no right to be responsible for the Iraqi citizens in the first place. The United Nations decided that there was no justification to enter and its Secretary-General called the occupation illegal. (19) Many countries joining the "coalition of the willing" had a significant majority of citizens who did not want to enter the war either. (20) Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been protesting in the streets. (21) Moreover, the vast majority, the democratic majority, of Iraqi people want us out. (22) If we really believed in the concept of democracy like we claim, then we would respect their majority’s wishes and leave. Now.


Links
(1)
http://www.diario.it/?page=wl05060100

(2)
http://www.jhsph.edu/PublicHealthNews/Press_Releases/PR_2004/Burnham_Iraq.html

(3)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html#People

(4)
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=7933

(5)
http://www.embavenez-us.org/constitution/intro.htm

(6)
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12126&c=207
http://www.johnconyers.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={BD0FBB2E-BAE6-4A15-9517-E9E135D8F0C7}
http://elandslide.org/elandslide/index.cfm?campaign=debt
http://www.aclu.org/iclr/jadwat.pdf
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/news/cae_arrest1.html
http://www.nlg.org/news/statements/LynneStewart0205.htm

(7)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index

(8)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

(9)
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0501-04.htm

(10)
http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/zinn-chap16.html

(11)
http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/topstories_story_018113151.html

(12)
http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/mna/mena.nsf/Attachments/Iraq+Joint+Needs+Assessment/$File/Joint+Needs+Assessment.pdf

(13)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks

(14)
http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/resources.aspx?act=total
http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh16145_2005-05-12_15-05-50_wen1632_newsml
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050526/general_dynamics_contract.html?.v=1
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050412/cgtu080.html?.v=3
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/031205D.shtml

(15)
http://costofwar.com

(16)
http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/sponsorship/sponsorEntry.aspx

(17)
http://costofwar.com/index-world-hunger.html

(18)
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=76&ItemID=7712

(19)
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0916-01.htm

(20)
http://www.counterpunch.org/chomsky11142003.html

(21)
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/568/568p14.htm

(22)
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=957

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. Don1, Welcome to DU!!! This is an important post.

The outline is clear. Let the debate begin. Afterall, if we wait around long enough and the 7-8 million Iraqi's who OWN automatic weapons decide to turn them on us, it will be a tragedy of epic proportions.

Time to grow up and listen to those we occupy, leave please. They've said that in any number of ways. Now it's time for us to listen.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Thanks.
That's right. They have spoken. Their democratic majority has the authority to rule themselves.

I am glad that you also don't believe the bigotry that the neo-conservatives like Condi Rice spout like when she said:
"The Iraqis lack certain capacities."

These neo-conservatives hate democracy.
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Spectral Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. Wouldn't just leaving be destablizing?
And won't it just leave Iraq open to another predator?

I'm not against what you're saying. I am just worried that pulling out will make things worse.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Our Responsibility and Their Rights
"...it is naive to think that the deaths will cease simply by killing more 'insurgents' that are created each time some more civilians are killed....I have discussed reasons that it would be responsible to leave, but in so doing I failed to mention that we have no right to be responsible for the Iraqi citizens in the first place...If we really believed in the concept of democracy like we claim, then we would respect their majority’s wishes and leave."
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MojoXN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. How could things possibly be worse?
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. No current office holder will support an immediate withdrawal
Edited on Mon Jun-06-05 11:43 AM by paineinthearse
It would be political suicide.

The most vocal are Representatives Meehan & McGovern of Massachusetts and Woolsey of California (if not on the record, I know from seeing Meehan yesterday that she supports his withdrawal resolution).

See http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1832445&mesg_id=1832445 & http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=158&topic_id=2581
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. It is Not up to Congress.
They have no moral authority over the democratic majority of Iraq.
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. Meehan's position
http://www.martymeehan.com/

A Strategy For Succeeding In Iraq And
Bringing Our Troops Home

Marty Meehan has proposed an effective exit strategy from the quagmire in Iraq that will allow U.S. troops to come home, lead Iraq down the path to stability and democracy, and focus on the war on terror. The centerpiece of this plan is to bring additional allies into the reconstruction efforts and improve the training of Iraqi security forces to facilitate a withdrawal of U.S. troops as quickly as possible. Under Marty’s plan, the United States would:

Turn over responsibility for overseeing the reconstruction and elections in Iraq to the United Nations
Expedite the training of the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, police, and other security forces so that we can turn over responsibility for security functions
Make Iraq part of NATO’s global mission as part of the effort to double the number of international troops
Supporting Our Troops

Marty has been outraged by the Bush Administration’s failure to give our troops needed equipment and a sense of when they can return home. As a senior member of the Armed Services Committee, Marty is leading efforts to give our troops the support they need:

Marty led the effort to force the Pentagon to provide our troops with the body armor and armored vehicles they need to protect themselves from ambushes. He believes the Pentagon should reimburse families who paid for protective gear for their loved ones in Iraq out of their own pockets.
Marty has also called for a more reasonable rotation schedule for reservists to lessen the burden on families.
Marty is also highly concerned about the strains placed on soldiers who are exposed to combat and away from home for months at a time. He has called for greater congressional attention to the psychological impact of the Iraq war on our troops.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. This is moderate...
but might be acceptable to the Iraqi people. Again, they are the authority. We still support the concept of democracy, right?

"Turn over responsibility for overseeing the reconstruction and elections in Iraq to the United Nations "

Al Sistani and his followers might be in favor of UN peacekeepers...but again, it's up to the Iraqi people not Congress. And right now, they want us out.
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. McGovern's position
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. Nobody has an "out now" plan
Not Woolsey, not Meehan, not McGovern, not Nader. What they have is an anti-Bush Doctrine plan.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I Don't Completely Agree.
(1) Depends on what the word "plan" means. Woolsey for example has a plan to make an exit plan.

(2) The Iraqi people have a plan. It's called the "Get Out Now" plan.
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. What IS "the greatest nation in the world"?
I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with your statement, merely asking you to take it a step farther.

If the US is not the greatest nation in the world, which nation is the greatest, and why?
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Cannot Pick Just One
There are several countries which are more socially progressive and therefore have both more civil liberties and economic reforms for the poor, the sick, and the unlucky. For example, Scandinavian countries.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Ireland...
Ireland was voted the best country to live in, in a recent survey:

Ireland is named 'best country'

Dubliners have reason to be cheerful, the survey finds
Ireland is the best place to live in the world, according to a "quality of life" assessment by Economist magazine.

The country's combination of increasing wealth and traditional values gives it the conditions most likely to make its people happy, the survey found.

Ireland was followed by Switzerland, Norway and Luxembourg. All but one of the top 10 were European countries.

The USA languished in 13th, while Britain was 29th - the lowest of the pre-expansion EU nations.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4020523.stm

Damn! We weren't even in the "Top 10!"



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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. There's a joke in there somewhere.
There seems to be a slightly conservative bent to part of the assessment: "...stable family and community life."

The regligious family values crowd must be irate that homosexual-tolerant Sweden beat the US in this rating. Check it out:
http://www.godhatessweden.com
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. "God so hated man that he send numerous websites proclaiming that"
Is that site for real? It's almost so bizarre not to be!

I had to look up the work "sodomy" again to see what the fuss was all about:
http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/sodomy.htm

It's amazing and sad how "anal" some of this people can be!
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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. There is no way in HELL i would support immediate exit.
Edited on Mon Jun-06-05 04:19 PM by MsTryska
we bombed the shit out of that country.


We need to put things to rights before leaving.


And i don't mean pay our companies billions of dollars to play at rebuilding.


I mean something along the lines of what we did in Europe Post WWII.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. No Right
(1) That would be nice, but it is not feasible given current corruption.

(2) It is not our right. The democratic majority of Iraq has spoken. Neither El Presidente nor Congress has the authority to pull it off.
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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. I'm confused by point number 2......
did the dem majority there say they wanted us all the way out?
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Yes, the citizens themselves.
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 07:46 AM by Don1
They always viewed us as an occupation force. They want us out now more than ever. There is a poll in the reference links I gave:
"Majorities of both Sunni Arabs (82%) and Shiites (69%) also favor U.S. forces withdrawing either immediately or after an elected government is in place."
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=957

The pro-Democracy Muqtada al Sadr and his pro-democracy militia men are ready to start fighting the occupation again, unless withdrawal begins.

Additionally, read my other post in this thread on how Neo-Cons hate democracy:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1832524#1834269
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
17. no ... WE ARE NOT STUCK THERE ...
great post, Don1 ... and welcome to DU !!

oh, they say "it would be just so darned irresponsible to just up and leave" ...

it's bullshit ... total bullshit ...

with a responsible administration committed to really helping the Iraqis find some PEACE and stability, perhaps, just perhaps, the "we can't leave now" argument would be worth discussing ... but bush and the neo-cons are in power ...

for anyone to believe that we should let bush continue his occupation to serve his purposes is truly misguided ... to call for more occupation requires you to "get into bed with bush" ...

i'll call for a show of hands here ... other than many of the Democrats in the Senate, are there any DU'ers willing to do that? because that's what supporting more of bush's occupation is ... it is complicity with neo-con imperialism ...

do we have a major obligation to the Iraqi people? absolutely ... are we genuinely going to make things better in spite of the overwhelming reality of what's been going on over there for more than two years and tens of thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars? get real ...

OUT NOW or in the very near-term may not be a very good option ... but it is the only option ... staying will produce more of the same or worse ... and there really isn't all that much more room for worse ...
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. There's Another Half to the "Out Now" Argument
The Neo-Cons are fascist control freaks. They hate anything that threatens their illegitimate authority. This includes, as we see, the federal judiciary, but also international bodies (International Criminal Court, Geneva Convention, UN). And the thing that should sink them (if anyone can stop to think and then say it out loud) is that the Neo-Cons hate DEMOCRACY itself.

The Neo-Cons do not believe in a government for and by the people. They subvert the people's will all the time.

They subverted democracy when they stole the 2000 election.

They subverted democracy in allied European nations by arm-twisting. The majority of citizens in Germany and France opposed the war and their leaders followed their citizens' wishes. The Neo-Cons called them "Old Europe" in talking points and they handed out bumper stickers that read "Nuke France." The majority in Italy opposed the war, too, but the right-wing Berlusconi went into it anyway. His country and others who had leaders who opposed the concept of democracy were called "New Europe." Those anti-democratic leaders were called "strong leaders." Read some Chomsky on the subject:

"Poll results available from Gallup International, as well as local sources for most of Europe, West and East, showed that support for a war carried out 'unilaterally by America and its allies' did not rise above 11 percent in any country. Support for a war if mandated by the UN ranged from 13 percent (Spain) to 51 percent (Netherlands)."
http://www.counterpunch.org/chomsky11142003.html

The Neo-Cons subverted democracy again in the US in 2004 with the voting machine scandals.

The majority of US citizens do not think the war is worth it and would want a timetable, but the Republicans in Congress voted against the Woolsey amendment. Roughly 1 in 2 Democrats voted for the amendment, so the Democratic party is not completely democratic either. But the Neo-Con-controlled Republican party is not even close.

Finally, I am back to Iraq. The vast majority of Iraqis are against US occupation. The people of Iraq ARE the legitimate government of Iraq. This is the concept of democracy itself. The US is an illegitimate authority there. We must comply with the will of the occupied nation and leave. Not to do so, is to contradict democratic principles yet again.

Not to comply with democracy is also "...complicity with neo-con imperialism."

So here they are, our talking points:
(1) Why do you want to kill Iraqi kids?
(2) Why do you hate democracy?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. talking democracy ...
hope you take the time to read this post i made a few days ago ...

i spend most of my time on DU talking about the occupation of Iraq ... but this post is what i think should be at the core of the Democratic Party's platform:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1827795

keep up the good work !!
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Yes, democracy.
Just read your thread. I agree that it is important for us to keep talking about democracy (and keep showing the money behind the corporate influence, too). I have done this in my thread as well. I agree also that the Democratic party should be where the populist movement takes place. Remember, though, that the ones in Congress keep voting with the Repubs on many anti-populist issues. They might at this point be beyond the point of no return. I plan to work with them for a few years. If nothing gets done to restore citizens back to their rightful place in government, then I will go elsewhere.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. "Out Now"....would be great
And is the best goal. Lets keep saying it.

Meanwhile we should all be asking, in this Democracy of our's, we should be asking our leaders this simple question: "What is the exit strategy?"
By asking that question we put them on the spot and get other people THINKING. Getting the people thinking about what has been done and what plans there are for the final "Out" will be something that galvanizes support for our goal.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. We Need to Go Further.
We already put some pressure on about the exit strategy and the issue failed.

"...May 25 the U.S. House of Representatives considered an amendment offered by Representative Lynn Woolsey (D-CA) calling for an exit strategy from Iraq...In the end the amendment failed ­ by a vote of 300 to 128 with 5 not voting. Because Rep. Woolsey insisted on a roll call vote we now know who needs to convinced..."
http://www.counterpunch.org/zeese05272005.html

Sure send a message to your rep to plead for an exit strategy, but I think it is time to go a step further. We must start frothing at the mouth and yelling at the fanatical neo-con citizens themselves. When they say "Support the Troops" or some crazy crap about freedom, we must answer them. We must fight them and convince others around them that they are wrong. We must get citizens educated on the subject and those citizens need to be willing to call their reps as well.

If the Neo-Cons say "Support the Troops," then say "Yes, Bring Them Home."

If they say keep the troops there for "National Security," say the world hates us because of their decision.

If they say keep the troops there for "Stability," ask them why they want to kill more Iraqi kids. Talk about the more than 40,000 dead kids.

If they start spouting about democracy, tell them about all the ways that they have subverted democracy, especially the last one...the one where the majority of Iraqis want us out.

And again, yes, call your rep. Woolsey has another bill coming up, I think?
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/mideast/iraq/iraqcallinweek.html
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