Thank you Edwards, Biden and Richardson for the public flogging of Dean.

[smartvoter]

These anti-Dean polls on MSNBC and CNN are all fed by the quotes of Edwards, Biden and Richardson. Instead of diffusing the situation, pointing out that his statements were taken out of context, or doing what most politicians do on the same side ("What Howard meant to say was... "He misspoke, but his point is important, which is ...") they created headlines everywhere this week.

And to those of you who want to say it's Dean's own doing, let me point out that these types of polls and anti-Dean momentum did not happen after he spoke. This all happened after the three hacks publicly denounced him, generating hundreds of articles about the party's division. Your every-day DUer could predict the fallout from their actions. No way in hell they didn't know they were pulling the rug out from under Dean.

[ihaveaquestion]

1. Exactly! The Dem Leaders Haven't Learned

to stick together yet. They're getting better, but have to practice being supportive of each other more often.

[Eloriel]

23. No, no. This is a coordinated campaign. I'm not entirely sure who

is behind it (meaning what individuals originally thought it up, we DO know the PNAC-loving DLC is heavily involved), but I AM sure it's no accident, nor is it something that they just haven't learned to do better at.

Here is a bit of supporting documentation -- the first 3 threads are the most important (along with the one at the bottom, of course:


Undercutting our Party Chairman: Insider Dems Launch a New Assault
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1837195
Link: http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/06/tell-bill-richardson-to-go-cheney.html

It's official: the DLC wants WAR
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1836491

Beltway Dem insiders whine, 'Dean stole our Golden Goose!'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1835521

Dean-hating "Dem strategist" Gary South = Gray Davis' Campaign Manager
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3809724#3809888

"Richardson distances self from Dean: He is not our spokesman."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3807744

John Edwards responds to the Dean Controversy!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1833416&mesg_id=1833416

DEAN: REPUBLICAN POLICIES DON'T HELP HARD WORKING AMERICANS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1834118

Note to Biden and Edwards: Howard Dean speaks for me.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3792471#3793043

And on the flipside:
NEW GAME: CATCH HOWARD DEAN'S BACK
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1837227
Link: https://www.democrats.org/epatriots/give.html?sourcecode=E008977

[ihaveaquestion]

29. Coordinated attack or no, they must learn that this is not the way to win.

Supporting each other (the way the repukes do) is the only way to go. Undercutting each other will just create more losers!

[KoKo]

2. Ad Pelosi to the list. She just dissed him today.....

:-( I'm telling you there's a group that wants him to resign. Watch for more comments from Dems dissing Dean to come in the next week.

A "Big Mo" that Dean's "Gotta Go."

[Teaser]

3. Edwards more or less

clarified that he meant no strong criticism by it. Just that he wouldn't have phrased it quite that way. I'm OK with that.

[smartvoter]

7. No. You had to fill in those blanks. He said he'd say it again, and the

"it" was that Dean doesn't speak for Democrats.

Read his note again. He says clearly he would say it again.

Then he throws in a bunch of fluff about being on the same side so everyone will still like him.

[Eloriel]

45. Exactly. He didn't make all those MILLIONS by not being a really

clever lawyer. (And while *I* am not one who disses lawyers -- but I do reserve the right to notice that some of them can be pretty darned slippery and slick. Edwards himself brings this to my attention more and more these days.)

I too was lulled and soothed by that oh-so-nice non-apology of his. And THEN I saw a clip of his rebuke of Dean. No, he chose his words as carefully the first time -- the rebuke -- as he did in his non-apology. He is a very clever attorney, one who understands the power of words and WHICH WORDS TO USE perfectly. Never forget that.

[smartvoter]

49. Agreed. nt

[ChiciB1]

9. Me Too....

but clearly the leaders in Congress NEVER wanted Dean and seem as though they want him GONE!

This is SO SICK! Hillary should be added to the list too. A reporter commented that she wasn't comfortable with his comments. I guess Dean will just have to slink off for a while, however what he is saying isn't anything worse than what Repukes have been saying against the Dems for years. He's fighting back, which is something we should have been doing all along!

SICK!

[tabasco]

4. I never thought Edwards was an appeaser.

He seems like a "give 'em hell" kind of guy. I'm surprised that he would not agree with Dean's comments, which were truthful.

The top republicans are all criminals - robber barons looting the national treasury. Isn't it time we dropped the politeness shit and started calling the thieves what they are?? Dean is going easy on the pack of rats.

[Darkamber]

35. The statement was given to Edwards out of context

And then Edwards made his own statement. Dean does need to be more careful and not give the Press an opening. Hearing that statement out of context, I was shocked as well and glad for Edwards comment and I didn't agree with Dean's statement.

Hey...I like Dean and I support him as DNC, but the press is running with this and looking for a break in the Democratic party and we are feeding it to them as well.

Even the left talk show host that I'm listening to here in Washington State is doing the old Dean quote from Iowa today that made the headlines back then.

And yes, you can call some of the leadership what they are, but don't include it in a broad statement to include "All Republicans". That was Howard's problem. He's got to be careful to not include "all" in his statements.

We need to bring this country together and not divide it up even more then it is already.

[paulk]

5. better add Pelosi to your list of "hacks"

"House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, talking with reporters Wednesday, said she did not agree with the statement Dean made about the Republican Party.

"The role of the chair of the Democratic National Committee is one that is different than the role of the Democratic leader of the House or in the Senate," the California congresswoman said, "and sometimes the exhuberance of that position results in statements that neither of us would make."

"I don't think that the statement the governor (Dean) made was a helpful statement," she said. But Pelosi said she thought that Dean was "doing a good job.""

[ClassWarrior]

6. Public flogging??! BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA...

So because the media plays a good game of "GOTCHA!", we accuse our own people for "flogging" Dean when the press takes THEIR statements out of context?? That's rich.

NGU.

[damntexdem]

8. If the Dem Party dies ...

who will bury it?

[AntiCoup2K4]

20. Kruschev's ghost?

Since his long ago prediction will have finally come true when that happens :(

[louis-t]

10. I would puke if I heard Dem leaders say Dean 'mis-spoke'

If Dean can't 'splain himself, other Dem leaders shouldn't be trying to 'splain things for him. Let the neocons run around trying to 'splain what the neo-president says. Dean can speak for himself.

[smartvoter]

12. My preference is they say nothing. But if they're going to, they could

at least act like they're on the same side. nt

[ClassWarrior]

17. So if they act like they're on the same side...

...for 95 percent of the interview, and then they say one thing along the lines of, "I don't really like the words he chose," and the Corporate Media only reports that last 5 percent of the interview, does that a "flogging" make?

NGU.

[smartvoter]

36. In the segment about Dean's comments, they said he

doesn't speak for Democrats.

I don't know how to be more direct or obvious than that.

On Edit: The flogging is happening right now.

[walkon]

26. I'm not here to comment on Howard Dean.

But as for Republican politicians working to undermine the middle class, eroding civil liberties, exploiting issues to create division, engaging in distortion to try to push policies of war, greed and corporate interests, let me say......

Maybe something like that to reframe the issue - everytime a press stooge asks one to "clarify" comments made by another - wonder how long before those questions would stop?

[Cats Against Frist]

11. They're totally fucking it up

Someone needs to say what Dean is saying -- and for those pantywaists to give legitimacy to the idea that it's "crazy" for someone to say that is MAJORLY FUCKED UP.

I've heard Mehlmann (sp?) go on TV -- particularly during the election -- and call Democrats everything except "motherfuckers," -- I've watched him lie through his teeth, say inflammatory, incendiary things. Does anyone else remember this?

Of course, here is what the GOP will do. Though they've consolidated their power through 15 years of hatred, attacking, smearing, lying and sensationalizing -- every attack the Dem's make will be "what--what's wrong with you crazy Democrats, we're all supposed to GET ALONG, right? Get out of the glow of our halos."

Bet.

Now, some of the Sun-Tzu shit would come in handy. That's their next move. Does anyone know what would be a good "one step ahead." I say the left, while going into attack mode, put out those Blumrich films, and other stuff, that show clips and soundbytes of Republican hysteria, and hatred, over the last 15 years. From Gingrich, to Hannity, to Lott, to Frist, to Falwell, to that sweaty fucking pig Limbaugh.

Or like a two hour documentary -- sent to every house in America. Any other ideas?

[Proud_Lefty]

18. YES, YES, YES

The GOP and media have opened the doors and if we don't take the opportunity to reenforce Dean's words (the truth) which have been suppressed for way too long, we're totally missing the boat. Let's get the words out anyway we can, while we can.

Remember, the Democrats are much smarter than they think.

[jre4me08]

13. Governor Dean needs to ZIP HIS LIPS

Good grief! Instead of bashing Republicans, Howard Dean needs to focus on building up the Democratic Party. His constant bad mouthing of Republicans isn't getting us anywhere and it's very childish.

[Cats Against Frist]

14. The Republicans Consolidated their power through 15 years

of piping hate radio into the brains of the dull, and by having unscrupulous religious leaders brainwash their delusional flocks with hate.

Dean is not eve trying to bash. He's speaking the truth.

[AntiCoup2K4]

15. It's funny how many "new members" have signed up this week to bash Dean

Is Al From really getting that desperate?

CUT THE DLC CANCER OUT OF THIS PARTY NOW

[Pithy Cherub]

22. Howard speaks a truth.

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up governed by your inferiors." ~ Plato

Howard is just fine with me and in my sphere of influence he is being hailed!

[sendero]

25. Au contraire..

... you need to zip yours. Dean has merely ratcheted up the rhetoric a small amount, he's no where close to getting to where Republicans and hate radio go every day.

Someone needs to tell the truth about the lying, thieving, corrupt Republican leadership in this country - the only thing that's sad is that when the only one brave enough to do it does it, he gets slammed by the plethora of Republican ass kissers that infest our party.

The time for "civil discourse" dissapeared over a decade ago. The Republican party spent 8 years tearing down a president who was 10 times the man their guy will ever be. I'm not forgiving, and I'm not forgetting and the American public is waiting for the kicked-down to stand up and throw some punches.

Go Dean.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[radio4progressives]

33. You must be an operative or neophyte

Dean IS doing what he needs to do to BUILD UP the party and to RAISE MONEY.

First, do you honestly believe that the working class will willingly part from their hard earned cash to support a MEALY MOUTHED, SPINELESS - DO NOTHING organization?

If you do, then you are hopelessly naive.

Too many, especially Biden et al are SPINELESS BLOWHARDS.

Biden for instance is constantly on tv and bloviating about this or that, sits on committees which C-Span often airs their session broadcast, knowing he's being watched on C-Span, and talks up a good game, only to VOTE IN FAVOR of the NEO CON/FASCISTS AGENDA on issue after issue.

He is a PHONY and a DINO.

AND HE LOVES THIS ILLEGAL WAR IN IRAQ. I wouldn't be too surprised to eventually learn that he might be financially benifiting from it just like Dianne Feinstein.

The DLC must be OUSTED, DISMANTLED.

[SemperEadem]

42. No, that's what the pink tutu dems have done for 15 years

and we see what course that tack took. It helped to set up the machine whereby the thugs thought they could do away with the filibuster and the conventional rules of senate.

Dean needs to shout it from the rooftops and put the thugs on the defensive. The mainstream GOP should not be allowed to distance themselves from the neocon RW extremists. They should be made to embrace them or curse them publicly---either course will cause a split in their ranks. Divide and conquer.

[ptolle]

43. zippers & cet.

I don't see why Dr. Dean can't and shouldn't do both. He seems to be doing a good job on the organizational front, and IMO, the Repigs need a hot poker up their fundament now and again as do a share of the democrats who think we can do a constant cassius clay with the rope a dope strategy. Believe me, the rethugs will never tire of delivering shots to our ribs.A good couple quick shots to the head is not a bad deal especially when they sting and might provoke unguarded reaction.I mean it's not like he's not telling the truth.To be sure, some folk might not like to hear what he has to say, but that alone does not invalidate his comments.

[Rainscents]

53. Why should Dean "ZIP HIS LIPS"????

I remember clearly during election... Republicans were saying, Democrats is going to take Bibles away, we are going to take guns away, we are baby killers, Gay lovers, tree hugger and that we should all be over at Iraq and they should shoot us all,etc... So, it's OK for republicans to say shit like this about Democrats??? Get a grip!!!!

[gordianot]

16. Democrats need to learn this is "political" war.

And act accordingly. Why don't these people simply work out agreed upon talking points? Then designate someone to start the dialog. That would put an end to these disputes. It might even rein in Jomentum and Biden, avoid Edwards misspeaking. Dean's best weapon is his mouth, lets end the perception of him shooting himself in the foot (which does occasionally happen). Outing Dean now would be a disaster for 2006.

[ClassWarrior]

19. So do DUers who continue trust the Corporate Media...

...to report our leaders' comments accurately.

NGU.

[gordianot]

28. Democrats also need to assume their words and actions will be twisted.

by Corporate Propaganda. I think that's why they do speak up more. A common script would help.

[ClassWarrior]

44. You think you can do better? Then why aren't you running for something?

Let's see how it's done.

NGU.

[gordianot]

48. Well now.

Back in the days Democrats won more often than not. The people I worked for were small potato's, but everyone who worked for the candidate(s) knew what to say and what not to say. There was actually planning involved. Workers were briefed turned in their guide which I am sure was destroyed. Campaign workers were specifically taught how to approach the public and avoid insulting a potential voter. If someone came into headquarters they were immediately engaged by campaign workers, questions answered, and the name of the person was taken for follow up. The people who ran these campaigns were professionals and had expectations.

All I saw in 2004 was disorientation. I volunteered, no talking points other than they hate Bush (common thread), people came into headquarters and the receptionist would not even look up. I volunteered to drive voters to the polls no one could find the lists so they relied on phone requests which did not come. Anyone could do better than that!

[smartvoter]

50. You act like this was accidental. No way people

THIS politically savvy didn't know what would happen with those statements.

How often do they rally around each other effectively?

[gordianot]

52. Right rally is what should have happened.

[sandnsea]

21. There was NO flogging

This is the stupidest shit I think I've ever seen from Dean supporters.

Edwards is in red state Tennessee, is asked about Dean's hating Republicans who are apparently white Christains who never did an honest day's work, and Edwards says "Dean doesn't speak for me". Which is the exact same thing Biden said.

And that's a flogging?

Shut the fuck up and this shit would go away in 2 seconds flat. YOU make this crap an issue by keeping the pot stirred.

[AntiCoup2K4]

24. If if was JUST Edwards, you might have a point.

But it was Edwards and Biden. And then when Edwards clarified his comments, they dragged out Richardson. And then when they realized that nobody but political junkies gives a shit what Bill Richardson says, they dragged out Pelosi.

THIS IS AN ORGANIZED DLC HIT AGAINST HOWARD DEAN, AND IT WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO STAND!

[TayTay]

32. Howard Dean is now supposed to speak with authority

as the Chairman of the Democratic Party. He is an intelligent and pasionate man who is trying to bring some much needed change to the DNC. I applaud him for this.

However, he does not help his cause when he leaves some of these dumb phrases sprinkled around the landscape. It is just too easy for Rethugs to use phrases like "Republicans never worked a day in their life," "Republicans are the White Christian Party" and so forth as clubs to beat up on Dems with. Gov Dean is smart and capable, and I want to see him succeed. I don't think he is doing himself any favors by not considering the impact of his speech.

Also, toughen up. The Dean people are the thinnest-skin bunch I have ever seen. Gov Dean encounters problems because he is in a high-profile job that he asked for and has a lot of media following what he says. It should not come as a shock to any Democrat that the media has it's own agenda and tries as hard as it can to flame the fans of controversy within the Dem Party. (My very mild criticism of Gov Dean just asks that he stop and think before he speaks. This is hardly an instance of getting out the hot pokers.) We have an unbelievable amount of real Rethug bulshit to get through in the next 17 months. Grow a thicker skin as it is about to get much, much worse. Gov. Dean himself does not seem to mind this and I think he is anticipating a veritable shitstorm of comments heading his way. His most ardent admirers should also start to get prepared for when the real shitstorm starts or you guys are going to burn out.

[MoonRiver]

37. It's not "Dean people" who are upset.

I'm a Clark supporter, but worked hard for Kerry in the election. I do recognize that Howard Dean is a wonderful asset to the party, and I'd love for him to be able to do his job without being constantly undermined by Democratic leaders! Terry McAuliffe was a major screw-up and disaster as a chairman, but nobody ever says boo about him! Why the hell do these Dem leaders feel so threatened by Dean? He's energized the base and is beloved to degrees I've never seen. Are the bastards jealous???
:wtf:

[TayTay]

38. Excuse me? McAuliffe was pilloried here and elsewhere

There were whole groups devoted to slamming Terry McAuliffe. He stood in as a living persona of the DLC-inspired movement to bring the Dem Party to the right. If you didn't see any of the criticism you weren't looking very hard.

Dr. Dean's job is to 1) fundraise and 2) energize the grassroots. If he is speaking in ways that impede those goals, then perhaps he might want to re-think how he expresses himself. He has enemies within the Party who want someone else to assume the Chairmanship. I like Dr. Dean and hope he succeeds. I certainly hope he doesn't make it easier for the DLC folks to make an argument for his removal. That would be a shame.

[MoonRiver]

41. I wasn't referring to DUers' opinions about McAulliffe.

I meant the Dem leaders, who always seemed to worship the ground he walked on. If they had differences with Terry they kept them strictly (or almost) to themselves. There is an unprecedented movement underfoot to get rid of Dr. Dean. I think what threatens the leaders is that Dean doesn't need them and their corporate pals to rally the troops. But if they would just leave the man alone we might actually start winning again!

[TayTay]

46. I don't believe that

Most of the comments I have seen have been preceeded with comments like, "I think he's doing great"(Pelosi) or "He seems to be learning the job, give him a chance."(Kerry)

Gov Dean's enemies are not in the elected officials. He is threatening to the consultants and to the folks who want to pull the party to the right. No one ever, ever, ever gives up power willingly. There are a hell of a lot of people who want the Dems to continue to rake in the corporate bucks. They genuinely believe that the Dems belong to the Centrists and that this is the only way to victory. If you are looking for bogeymen in this fight, aim your ammunition that way. Those are the ones who are threatened.

It's a shame that we have to re-assemble the firing squad everytime someones sacred cow gets gored. Gov Dean wants to make the whole party more competitive. This type of stuff does not make his job any easier.

[MoonRiver]

47. The Dem leaders need to start biting their sharp tongues, even when

they dutifully cover criticism with sugar coating. Dean speaks the truth and I don't want his messages to be deflected by them. If they keep this crap up they will once and for all lose the base. IS THAT WHAT THEY REALLY WANT? I'm starting to wonder.

[sandnsea]

34. OH horseshit

Honestly, this is flat out psychotic. PSYCHOTIC.

Biden & Edwards were asked questions and answered them. Which is what I said, btw. BOTH of them. No big deal. It wouldn't have been a big deal if DEAN people hadn't made it a big deal. YOU blow things out of proportion and then act like victims.

Then, after YOU made it a big deal, other people get dragged into the mess. Who would expect anybody to support idiotic statements about hating white Christian Republicans who have never worked a day in their lives. PSYCHOTIC.

God I wish you people would hurry the fuck up and go green.

[tishaLA]

27. I don't think this is exactly a flogging

From Richardson and Edwards, at least, it was completely innocuous and it was about them speaking for themselves instead of giving the job to someone else.

With Biden, I'm not sure. But I don't think it's a big deal to disagree with statements made by the party chair.

[smartvoter]

39. The flogging is happening now. They enabled it. nt

[MoonRiver]

30. I have just about given up on this party.

After Dean became chairman I felt good about being a Dem again. Now, the idiots in charge seem determined to extinguish the first ray of hope the party has seen in a very long time. How on earth can we rank and file Dems hope to accomplish anything when our party leaders are hell bent for self-destruction?
:argh:

[SemperEadem]

40. Dean brings amazing grass-roots support

which hardly any of those criticising him can claim. As long as Dean has the support of the voters, the pink tutu dems are going to try to throw offal onto him and his pointed remarks about the truth of the thug party.

[theboss]

51. Does he though?

This is what I never understand. I've been hearing for two years how Dean has energized the grass roots, how he has saved the Party, how he has transformed American politics.

Yet he finished in something like fourth place in the primaries. To me, that means he has the grassroots support of Tom Harkin or John Glenn.

[lynne]

54. Isn't that a bit like -

- preaching to the choir? He can be guaranteed the grass-roots dems, but shouldn't he be thinking about extending that base instead of pissing off everyone that isn't "grass roots".

BTW - add Pelosi to the list of high ranking Dem's that have been critical of Dean's remarks. That one stings.