Third Party? Hey, I'd go with that.

[KoKo]

Being in this "bad mood" tonight, thinking about how we on the Left are trashed and villified by our own Dems...I'm thinking that building "grassroots" and working for a "Third Party" even if it takes so long to work for an build that many of us will no longer be here, is WORTH IT.

What is this shit we are dealing with every day here for well over five years? Way back to eight years where many of us were involved in the "Intenet Fight" to save Clinton from the Right Wing.

For some of us this is a very long investment of time, energy, sweat and tears.

I'm not see alot here from our Dem Party with the infighting over their past mistakes and terrible miscalculations to inspire me.

I'd go out of the Dems and ask the Black/Progressive Caucus to go with me (which includes our buddies Conyers, and all those who have voted against most of what the Bushies wanted since the "Selection"...like Jeffords and others who vote with their consciences.

I am so sick of fighting to defend our Dems against "false charges, innuendo, lies and bad campaigns for YEARS ...that I just want to ditch it all and find that band of folks in the Senate and House who are sick of it too and will join in creating a NEW MOVEMENT FOR AMERICA.

We aren't going to win with this ridiculous "compromise" our Dems keep forcing on us...and I'm sick of Globilization and Free Trade which is a "code" for "ship jobs offshore to the cheapist bidder" and the attitude that the CHIMP is SO POWERFUL that MSM and our Government are "scared" he will "Plane Crash or Anthrax" them all into obilvion if they don't listen to the BFEE and BAKER and the Rest of the "Guard" who've ruled America for most of the Decades of the 20 Century and now into the 21's Century where they've reached their ULTIMATE.

Sick of it....time to move on. How many more fights can we have over what Dean Said and what Biden Said or Lieberman or Will Hillary be THE ONE IN 2008.

It get's boring when one doesn't see any results and is tired of much of it wanting a FRESH VIEW where Tom Friedman doesn't set the Agenda for the next days news. :shrug:

Many typo's here...just too tired to correct...

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Excelt that being in a thrid party I can tell you

we eat our own too *sigh*

And with a duopoly that has turned into a monopoly thanks to BBV, we can't get our feet in the door at the federal level.

[Indiana_Dem]

2. Yeah. That sums it up.

I feel that way, too, sometimes. I'm sick of it,too.

[salib]

3. Been there, done that.

For over twenty years. Citizens Party, Green Party, etc.

I tell ya, having come over from that side, I say it is worth it to put up with a great deal of in-fighting in order to be able to support a candidate who can actually win for President, Congress, Governor, Legislator, etc.

[KoKo]

4. I think the "Thirds" are open to corruption and manipulation just like

Dems and Repugs. But we Dems are very "fractured." And, I'm not one of those who thinks doing "ABB" one more time...can be more than Elmer's light glue to hold it all together.

I think we are on the cusp of a new "Awakening." But, I have no idea what it is or how it will work out. I just know that the "old ways" are dead.

And, like you, I've seen that "Thirds" without a powerful draw like Nader or Perot (Experience or Corporate Self Made Man) thirds don't get much traction.

But...I wonder if a great "GrassRoots Movement" seeking a "Third" wouldn't maybe have better luck?

I saw some potential in the Greens that they really worked hard in Ohio for Vote Recount. Maybe there's a start there. I don't know, really..but I like many other Americans who aren't as involved with Dem Action here and locally might be getting sick of pushing this damned heavy boulder that doesn't want to budge up that hill and it in return keeps throwing rocks and crap off at us as we roll it ever so slowly in what we "hope" is "forward motion."

I don't know...:shrug:

[Rowdyboy]

6. I also believe America is "on the cusp of a new Awakening"

I'm just afraid that the "Awakening" will be a strong right-wing theocratic movement that will sweep away all of the progress we've made since 1932. IMHO, this is not a time I personally would consider supporting fracturing the opposition by going in a third party direction.

Splitting the left while there is a unified right is not a recipe for social progress-unless you're hoping for a violent revolution which I personally don't anticipate. Most Americans don't care enough to get their hands dirty, much less give up their lives.

Sometimes you just have to make the best of a very, very bad situation and work for change within the existing structures.

Like I said, its just my opinion.

[welshTerrier2]

5. i hear ya ...

and i hear you sounding a caution that many of us are feeling ...

i have lost faith in the Democratic Party ... the Party does many things i support but they fail to make the case, or even try to make the case, for the big changes that are so obviously needed ...

without going into much detail, we need a radically different foreign policy ... not a hawkish policy that sells the soul of America for the benefit of big business ... we need a renewal of our democracy ... not just important but wonky changes like audit trails for voting machines and campaign finance reform but real changes that re-empower citizens instead of handing away their power to corporations ... Democrats aren't fighting for that and making that job one in every interaction with the media ... the Democratic Party does a fairly good job pushing for various safety net issues and public welfare issues ... i commend them for that ... but without fighting to restore power to average citizens, all gains are illusory ... they are nothing more than temporary appeasements to silence the masses ...

so i understand your frustrations because i feel the same way ... i am likely to continue voting for my very progressive Congressman, Jim McGovern ... and i will work for and support several local candidates who are Democrats ... but the day is rapidly approaching that i will not support any more bullshit from the Democratic Party ...

it is inconceivable, unconscionable really, that they continue to support the catastrophe in Iraq ... i will never again support or vote for those who are doing that and that includes virtually every Senate Democrat ... i really have no idea why the hell i've remained a Democrat this long ...

and there really may not be any particularly good alternatives but anything is better than voting for candidates i don't believe in who just do not represent the values i hold ...

as for third parties and Greens and such, if the "big tent" coalition were to really fracture, a third party would carry far more weight than the Greens currently do ... if various Democratic constituencies walked out together, perhaps the Democratic Party would be forced to negotiate for their support ... as things stand right now, they don't give a damn about what we think ...

as of now, i will not be working for or sending money to any Democrat with only one or two exceptions ... future efforts and finances will be channeled to progressive causes i believe in; not to Democratic candidates and certainly not to the Democratic Party itself ...

[KoKo]

7. interesting. "....if the "big tent" coalition were to really fracture..."

"as for third parties and Greens and such, if the "big tent" coalition were to really fracture, a third party would carry far more weight than the Greens currently do ... if various Democratic constituencies walked out together, perhaps the Democratic Party would be forced to negotiate for their support ... as things stand right now, they don't give a damn about what we think ..."

The targeting of Dean by DLC is making me wonder if the "fracture"is coming sooner rather than later. It's been shocking to see blogs and our DLC Dems go on such a vicious attack about his comments. :eyes:

That's a very interesting comment you made. And, might be the "third way." The left activists taking a stand and making the rest of the party come to us rather than us moving to them.

The sad thing is that what's called the Dem Left is really made of of many who are more to what the center of the Dem Party used to be, but we couldn't stand to see our Constitution ripped apart and so now we are called the "Fringe Left." Labeled as such we are being marginalized by our own Party the way the Limbaugh/Gingrich crowd tarred all Dems with the word "Liberal."

Amazing.

[welshTerrier2]

8. "The targeting of Dean by DLC"

fwiw, i don't think "the left" has anything to do with the idiocy going on between Dean and the DLC ... frankly, the whole thing is pathetic and is caused by the total inability of the Party's elites to communicate with each other ...

the problem the Party has is that it fails to respect democratic processes ... Dean shouldn't have mouthed off without at least giving others a chance to discuss the implications and strategic direction he was setting ... you discuss, you negotiate, you may even compromise BEFORE you just go off in a new direction ...

this is exactly why the Party is totally alienating the left ... the Party elites are suffering from an arrogance of power ... they have not learned how to listen ... they only value the opinions of those at the top ... if they continue on this path, they'll get the same results they've been getting ... i believe the term they use for it is "minority party" ...

several of the Party's constituencies, not just the anti-war left, are firing off a few warning shots ... the black caucus, the anti-war left, and maybe even elements of labor and possibly some women's groups could splinter off from the Democratic Party ... this may not happen for 2006 or maybe even 2008 but the signs are starting to show up ... dissatisfaction with the shift to the right will not go unpunished for long ...

and from these splinters, perhaps being joined by the Greens in what will perhaps some day be a reunification of progressives, a real movement with electoral potential will arise ... we're not there yet; not by a long shot ... but the seeds have been planted and watered ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. so you have a problem with Dean

doing his job as the chairman?

Look the DLC is TRHEATENED by Dean...

[welshTerrier2]

14. here's what i DO have a problem with ...

i have no particular opinion about whether Dean's comments about republicans, in and of themselves, will help or hurt the Party ...

but i do see his comments as a significant change in how Democrats have protrayed themselves ... whether they were right or wrong, it seems to me the strategy had been to convey a non-partisan, for-the-good-of-the-country, kind of tone ... Dean's comments blew gaping holes in that strategy ...

just as the Democratic Party arrogantly expects "the left" to acquiesce to whatever bullshit the Democratic Party is peddling, like IWR, like another $82 billion to continue bush's occupation, like supporting "pro life" candidates like Bob Casey who are dead set against freedom of choice, like being in bed with corporations and letting corporations run this country and so on, it seems to me that both Dean and his DLC critics should have had an open discussion of the key strategies BEFORE either side starting running their mouths ...

if we are to really be a "big tent", we need to build relationships and improve intra-party communication ... i am totally critical of Dean for not doing that and i am totally critical of the DLC for not doing that ... don't make me out to be some kind of anti-Dean bad guy ... when will Democrats learn that our problems are the result of our own processes?? ... we need to stop being so focussed on personalities and start paying attention to letting every Democrat really have a voice ...

[KoKo]

15. What do you think of David Podvin's article on what Dean's doing?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1842712

[welshTerrier2]

18. heh ... great article ...

here's my reaction ... oh, thanks so much for bringing it to my attention ... it was very thought provoking ...

i didn't support Dean in the primaries ... well, actually, i was one of Dean's very earliest supporters ... interestingly, when his entire campaign staff consisted of just five volunteers in his Burlington Vermont office, i called his headquarters several times and spent hours talking to someone there about DU and how there were all these online activists who would support him ... "really?", they said ... i told them it would be the perfect way to get instant support for his campaign ... they were very interested ... i've always wondered what role those calls played in Dean's successful use of the internet for grassroots organizing and for fund-raising ...

anyway, without reliving the past, i thought Dean started tap-dancing around the Iraq issue ... that's when i left and supported Kucinich ... so Dean and I don't have a great history ...

i was intrigued when he formed DFA although, how do i put this nicely without spending the next few hours defending myself, i didn't like most of the DFA members i encountered ... i found them all, well, mostly, to be Dean groupies ... where i was focussed on issues, they were focussed on Dean ... they defended Dean's position on Iraq which i totally disagreed with ... worse than that, they considered my objections to Dean's position to be "attacks" on him ... i supported Dean for DNC Chair for one reason and one reason only ... we needed to give the grassroots a real voice in the Party ... i thought Dean was likely to fight for that ...

so far, i've been very disappointed ... i've called for regular town meetings where my invisible Senators (Kerry and Kennedy) would hold regular forums around the state ... they haven't ... i had hoped Dean would strongly encourage more visibility ... he hasn't ... i believe most of our elected Democrats are totally out of touch ... how many of us really believe we have any influence with them whatsoever???

i heard Dean speak last month at the Mass Dems state convention ... he talked about USING the grassroots ... more involvement ... more work ... more contributions ... what i didn't hear was given the grassroots more power ...

the article you referred to took exactly the opposite view ... Howard Dean, friend of the grassroots ... so what's my opinion? i just don't see it ... am i still hopeful Dean will turn out to be one of the good guys? sure, i'm still hopeful ... but i ain't seen nothin yet ...

finally, the article also talked about Gore's remarkable transformation ... my thoughts? yup ... Gore has come to the light ...

so, where am i with all this? i have totally given up hope that there will be reforms in the Democratic Party ... ouch ... that hurt a bit ... i am an elected Democrat on my town's local DTC ... i joined to make a difference and "change the party from the inside" ... but the more i see, the worse i feel about it ... the recent state convention i attended was an exercise in arrogance ... virtually no one other than the elites were allowed to speak ... their agenda was rammed through and they got very angry when some tried to speak from the floor ... and this is in so-called liberal Massachusetts ...

the Party does not understand that it has to change if they are ever going to succeed ... there are major constituencies who feel trapped but very dissatisfied with the Party ... whether they splinter off or remain, that's a prescription for disaster ... even if the neo-cons do short-term damage to the republicans and the Democrats actually win an election or two, the dissonance will lead to long-term problems ... but the Party elites are narrow-minded short-term pragmatists and won't trouble themselves with an alienated base in the Party ... they're too busy feathering their own nests to worry about the long-term or the constituencies they hope will support them ...

i haven't decided to leave the Party yet but i will say i'm about half way out the door ... i spend more time these days thinking about where i'm going than why i should stay ...

[KoKo]

21. Your comments reflect

my experience being "involved" here in NC in our party as Precinct Vice Chair last year...I dropped back to being a delegate because of my disillusionment and anger over the way the DNC handled Kerry's Campaign.

I have much in agreement with you with my observations about what the Dem Party is doing, but I do know that here in NC we've managed to get some "Progressives" into the State Machinery with mucho fighting to do it. And, the folks who lead the outcry for change were "Dean,Kucinich and some former Nader activtists who are still leading the charge for reform. We also heavily lobbied for Dean to be DNC Chair. We have a Dem Governor (a quiet DINO...do nothing) so some of our activities are easier in this Red State than other's might find in the South.

The Party Entrenched seems to be what you have found in Massachusetts (surprising..since you have Kennedy and Kerry...but maybe not since we know the DLC has run the show for awhile now.

Here in the South, the Real Estate interests and "Good Ole Boys" run the Dem Party. On social issues they have some flexibility and they still stand on the "liberal South" who fought against the Racist Helms crowd to support civil rights movement, but they are a distance from what I would think Kerry and Kennedy should mean to their constituencies in MASS.

That said, Dean gave us 45,000 which we needed just to buy computers that can keep our voter rolls updated and allow for one full time clerical person to update our website. That's how bad it's been here in NC even with Dem Govenors for over a decade we had such antiquated equipment and relied only on volunteer help. You can see what the Repug Fundie Money from the Norquists have done in the South. No old IBM creaky computers from the 80's and relying on hoping a volunteer who might be computer literate to come in and try to find out what the
Democratic registration was in NC since the 2000 census.

I wasn't a Deaniac. I gave money to both Dean and Kucinich but knew neither of them had a chance that Kerry would always be "The Chosen." He had all the "big guns" on his side. So I worked for him and was disappointed in the Kerry/ Edwards Campaign and how they dealt with their volunteers here. Basically giving up on us except for a couple of rallies and sending some operatives who really didn't know what they were doing in the NC scene.

I could write a book, and we don't see many folks here on DU honestly talking about their experiences in this last campaign, so your comments were fascinating to me to read because you are in Blue State/Liberal America and had what sounds like similar problems to ours here in Red State NC.

I won't get into it more...but understand "EXACTLY" what you say...but do think Dean has made a start at trying to involve "grassroots" and give us money we really needed to compete with the Repugs not on an equal foot but at least we can catch up. If he changes the primary schedule so that we have rotating primaries within a reasonable window of time..that will be a huge help. We here in NC didn't get to vote in the primary until the week before the Dem Convention, FGS.. and it had all been decided by then. Dean vowed to change this "frontloading."

We will have to see how it sorts out. I have your somewhat more pragmatic view of our ability to have some success but at this point we could use a few Dean screams because most of us could scream loud and long about what we see and the rest have just about given up hope.

Thanks for your insightful reply discussion your experience.

:-)'s Wish more DU'ers would get into hard discussion about what we dealt with and some "hindsight" wrap up analysis, but think that it just isn't what we do here very well. Activism is our Glory on DU...connecting and spreading info. Analysis...maybe belongs on Kos or somewhere else on the more philosophical/strategy wonk sites.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. For a third party to work

we need to change the winner takes all standarsd written into the US Constitution, this will not happen until we have a hot civil war am afraid as neither the pukes or dems will allow this.

I am all for proportional representation myself.. John Stuart Mill was a genious

[The2ndWheel]

17. Very true

Until then, we can "choose" between the two rich, white, corporate backed men we wish to lead us.

And there's even a problem with the winner take all description. I live in PA, and I didn't really get to vote in the primary. It was determined about a month before the vote got here.

So it ends up being winner take all, but only after a small portion of the country(in Iowa, New Hampshire, and maybe South Carolina...nothing against the people in those states though) picks the running man.

[ClarkUSA]

10. See what Dean said today after his meeting with Reid

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1842221#

[theboss]

11. The third parties all become insignificant little fiefdoms

You'll end up with a roomful of people arguing nuance in a platform that no one outside the room will ever read.

[jmaier]

13. No party will ever be pure

enough for all of its adherents -- at least no party that will ever have an electoral voice.

At the end of the day it is always about either lesser evils or greater goods, not idealogical purity. You can wish it not so, but 230 years of history argues against you.

Pick a side that has a chance to win -- help it win, then lobby like hell for your specific positions to prevail. It's the American way.

[brentspeak]

16. Freepers would build a monument to you

[The Blue Knight]

19. Moderates bash the left?

Hmm. I don't have to far to find numerous threads where people bash Biden, Lieberman, Ben Nelson, hell, even Barack Obama for "not being pure enough."

Go 3rd party. That does nothing but help the Republicans. For every Dem that abandons the party, its a victory for the Republicans.

[Donna Zen]

20. There will be two parties

...the question is which two parties. Maybe the Dem party will continue this fractured spiral downward, or maybe they will pick-up the pieces and rebuild. But the construction of the our government, as opposed to a parlimentary system, lends itself to two parties (if we're lucky.)

If the Dem party fails to rebuild, another party will rise to take its place. And so the question: which two parties will be dominant and what constituencies will they include? There are plenty of possibilities and a progressive faction may not find a home in either.

I've just about reached the point where I wish to take Emerson's and George Washington's advice and do without a party.

I am against this war, the Patriots Act and all of the governing that favors the corporations' over the citizens' needs. I distrust the beltway crowd from both sides because they have proven themselves without a passion for anything other than themselves. Ego, it's all about the ego. The lie constantly.

I fear the day will come when even opening these threads to read all the cheering for those Democrats who put a knife in the back of my country and my daughter's future, will drive me away.

Wanted: A party who is against the war in Iraq and all similar armed misadventures, a party that understands that healthcare for its citizens and education are part of a national security strategy, a party who will go to the mat for the air we breath and the water we drink, a party that lives its ideals rather than just talk about them, a party that cares deeply about the Constitution and will defend it, a party that tells the truth.