OK, there is something seriously wrong with BigDog

[senseandsensibility]

He just asked "what's that?" when Letterman asked him about the DSM, He was handed an opportunity to bring it to the forefront. I believe they call it a "softball." His response was indefensible in my opinion.

And you know what? I don't care if it was "true" or not, either. He OWED it to the dead in Iraq to respond. His response would have to be devastating to satisfy me, but what's wrong with a comment like, "the memo raises serious questions, and should be investigated."
Guess that's too radical for "bigdog."

You know, I never want to be like the freepers, who would defend * no matter what he says or does. So I won't. I won't defend him. Disillusionment is very painful, though.

[eleny]

1. Okay, I'll say it...

It's not the first time he ever fibbed.

[LittleClarkie]

2. We are dealing with the man, after all

who said "Define 'is.'"

[ieoeja]

54. I assume you weren't watching when he ask that question?

I happened to be watching his testimony over a live broadcast. As soon as he was asked the preceeding question, I shouted, "that's a trick question!" And it was a trick question that really came down to ... what did the questioner mean by the word "is".

What he probably should have done instead of saying "that depends on what the meaning of 'is' is" was to say "if you mean ... then.... On the other hand, if you meant to ask ... then....". But at the time I was just happy to see that he caught the fact that it was a trick question.


FYI: I don't recall the exact wording of the question, but it was something along the lines of "you said you were involved in an affair with an intern. Is what you said true." Ignoring the trick question you get:

"Yes."
"Then you are currently having an affair with an intern?"
"No. It is true that I had an affair with an intern in the past."
"But I didn't ask you if it WAS true, I asked you if it IS true. Do you not know the meaning of the word 'is'?"

... or ...

"No."
"Then you are now saying that you never had an affair with an intern?"
"No, but you phrased the question in such a manner that it could have been interpreted as asking me if I am currently having an affair with an intern. I am not currently having any such affair. But I have freely admitted to having had one in the past and reiterate that admission right now."
"If it was true that you had an affair in the past, then it is still true that you had that affair. Do you not know the meaning of the word 'is'?"

[senseandsensibility]

Thanks for lightening the mood!

I'm not feeling very light now, to be honest. Maybe tomorrow I will feel differently, but I truly feel betrayed.

[eleny]

7. Maybe he'll have Clark on soon

He'll surely have something to say about it.

[Eloriel]

9. You have every right to feel betrayed, but

this is just vintage Clinton IMO.

Does it give you any clue that he and Bush I have become best buds? Or that he and Dole were pretty thick? Comity and comeraderie among peers is NICE, but ....

OTOH, one thing I've noticed about some (all?) politicians is that it doesn't mean as much to them as it does to us. Really. To me, this stuff is life and death. To me, being a liberal is literally who I am at core of my being. To professional politicians, it seems more like just a job. Or perhaps they enjoy the power plays and negotiating, and so forth. :shrug:

In any case, welcome to the real world. Sorry it's been a bumpy landing for you.

[FreedomAngel82]

14. Yep

Malloy talked about this tonight on his show. He basically said how in the public eye when the camera is running they act like they're mortal enemies but then as soon as it's off or away they're all buddy-buddy with each other. *sigh* Not all of them I'm sure. I don't expect them to be mean or whatever to each other but to be civil sure I can understand that since we live here together, but it is disheartning especially now. You know damn well Clinton knows about the minutes. I'm sure there's tons of shit he knows as well.

[sendero]

27. " To professional politicians, it seems more like just a job."

I'd like to think that is not true of all politicians, but true of way too many.

I'm afraid that Clinton is proving that the right's claim that he had no real convictions had some basis in reality.

I suppose that it is possible that he really just is that much out of the loop though. Can't be sure.

[elehhhhna]

40. Come ON! He sleeps at GHWB's FEET, for god's sake. Wake up,

everybody!

[formernaderite]

50. true..the pols in DC do not take any of this stuff personally....

It can be a rude awakening from an idealistic slumber that these guys treat politics as more of a game than an ideology. It is a cushy job for many of them...it allows them both access and money to the rich and powerful around the world. There are probably only a handful if that, who are offended at the amount of quid pro quo that goes on in DC. The weirdest thing to witness, is two guys who have just finished beating each other up on the floor, go out to dinner. It's what made me give up my DC job years ago.

[rhett o rick]

37. Forgive me, but who is BigDog? I m new. nt

[ArkDem]

45. What you are feeling is something virtually every Clinton

supporter has felt at some point.

[shance]

3. Okay I'll go for a stretch here. Maybe he said that to provide an explana

tion to those viewers who had no idea what the DSM was.

I didn't watch and Im with you SOS on wondering where Clinton has ventured off to, but perhaps this was an opportunity he saw?

Who knows? Perhaps only Bill knows.

[1932]

43. That was my feeling too. Letterman viewers are not like your avg. DUer.

Asking what it was puts Clinton in the same place as 99% of the viewers. Once it's explained, then Clinton gives his response, and many more viewers are likely to adopt Clinton's response as their own because they feel that they're opinion can be based on the same set of facts Clinton just heard.

[johnaries]

4. He did make some very good points, however.

Everybody knew they wanted Saddam out of power prior to the election.
Cheney made 14 trips to the CIA, and he didn't do it to have coffee and say "how are you".
They kicked the UN Inspectors out before they finished their job.

Sure, I would have liked to see him call for full investigations, but remember his primary focus right now is the Tsunami reconstruction, which he is working on together with GHWB. Saying what I would have liked for him to say could have made those efforts pretty uncomfortable.

And, I think the most important thing here is that LETTERMAN BROUGHT IT UP!!!!!

Yes, this story has legs! That was the best thing I've heard since Conyers this afternoon talking about "many more meetings".

[FreedomAngel82]

15. Also don't forget

that they broke that UN rule they made. Saddam did compromise and asked them not to kill his people as long as he compromised. This "war" is illegal in every since.

[AnnitaR]

5. Letterman asked him about the Downing Street Memos???

How in the HELL can he act like he has no idea what the DSMs are??

Yea, Clinton (I refuse to call him BigDog anymore) we're real amused by your little funny about being adopted by the Bush family too!

I have been an ardent Clinton supporter from the beginning but he is making it harder and harder every day!

There was no excuse for him to play dumb about the DSMs!

[Gloria]

6. There is absolutely NO WAY that Clinton is going to inject himself

into this, esp. now. He's not going to detract from Conyers and the rest. It would just be a distraction....look what the RW is doing to Durbin. If Clinton opens his mouth, you can kiss the whole thing goodbye.

Really. Even if Bush is impeached, he won't be commenting then either.

Everyone wanted him "off the stage" so why would you want him back as a lightning rod now?

[napi21]

11. I think you're right on this one! He's playing the background mode.

This is the same response I posted on a thread about "Where the hell is Dean on the DSM issue?" Conyers and the other supporting Reps have a job to do. All Dean or Clinton could do is distract from that!

I agree...shut up and let the Representatives in the House do thier job!

[IndianaGreen]

20. Let's stop cutting slack to Big Dog

He has been too close to the Bushes to smell their stench. We stood by him during the impeachment, so we owe him nothing!

[Gloria]

60. I am not cutting him slack...I wasn't particularly wowed by his

talk, in fact, I think it's time for him to go back into hiding and get off the stage...he's overplaying his hand...I know it was about plugging his book in paperback (in theory)....
BUT...that doesn't change the fact that he should not really inject himself into this DSM stuff as some people are demanding.

He is enough of a distraction now. I think if he's going to talk, he should be praising Democrats and not blurring the line on Bushco....
That said, he did bring up a few points about Bushco's behavior prior to the Iraq war that would leave a viewer wondering about Iraq...which was good.

Clinton seems to be playing a very dicey game now, walking a thin line. Frankly, if he's getting a rush out of it, I hope it's not clouding his judgment. Personally, I think he should shut up for awhile and also shut up about Hillary.

[magnolia]

26. This is EXACTLY what I think!

The right-wing, which includes the MSM, are experts at diverting attention and re-framing (read Lakoff's book) to push their agenda. If Clinton makes any comment whatsoever relating to anything that even smells of impeachment, he has handed them a whole new headline on a silver platter. It would be all about CLINTON SEEKING REVENGE.

Clinton is a lightening rod and he knows it. Whatever he gets involved in becomes all about him. We are guilty of it too. He is trying to bring more awareness to Tsunami victims...but all we are talking about is his friendship with poppy Bush.

It's the same with Dean. After he made his comment regarding Republicans being mostly white Christians...how many people said...well, actually that's true. No...it became all about him. How dare he, he needs to apologize, etc....

If you want to kill the DSM story fast, then get Bill Clinton to become it's spokesman!!!

On edit: I am not defending or excusing Clinton. I don't know why he says or does what he does. My impression of his "what's that" response, was that it was sarcasm because he went on obviously knowing about it. I personally do not want him to be involved in this issue because he becomes center of attention wherever he goes and whatever he is involved in.

After what he went through, he deserves to just sit back and watch the Bush Impeachment Reality Show from his comfy chair! Maybe his friendship with the Bushes is his front row seat when the House of Bush collapses.

[KoKo]

29. You make good points and I agree with you about this.

Nothing Repugs want more than to bring Clinton back into the picture while their guy is failing in the polls. Any comments Clinton makes will be misinterpreted or lied about and used against us.

He probably knows exactly what the DSM is about. He might have even been told before they were released. His not commenting is good. It's not his business anymore what trouble the Chimp has gotten himself into.

I might not like his making nice with Poppy, but many here are glad that Wes Clark has joined Faux as a commentator. So, I'm willing to give Clinton a pass on this. :shrug:

[notadmblnd]

31. So do you think he's living by the old adage...

keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer? Because I'm really beginning to think, he's one of them.

[KoKo]

39. Well he was forced to compromise with them because of his behavior

with Monica so I blame him for much of the misery we Democrats have had to go through for the last decade. I was against Nafta, Media Deregulation and many other of his "compromises," also. But, I'll give him a pass on working with the Bushies on aid for Tsunami victims and not speaking out and taking the spotlight away from Conyers and others working on holding Bush & Co. accountable for Iraq Invasion.

I don't think his speaking out now is going to help us reform the Dem Party or will do us any good. He's too controversial. :shrug:

[magnolia]

36. Apparently...

...Mike Savage said this morning that the DSM hearing was for the purpose of advancing Hillary Clinton's presidential bid!!! Sheesh!!!

Clinton speaks out regarding DSM = Bill campaigning for Hillary.

You are right KoKo01...it's not his business!

[msanthrope]

42. You got it---it would be too easy to conflate the Clenis and DSM. n/t

[Snivi Yllom]

47. I think he's thinking about his radio show (NT)

[NJCher]

8. I was disgusted

He just asked "what's that?" when Letterman asked him about the DSM, He was handed an opportunity to bring it to the forefront. I believe they call it a "softball." His response was indefensible in my opinion.

Oh please. I missed the first part of it and saw the rest of it only because a friend called and alerted me.

I was thoroughly disgusted with what he said about "we're here now" and yada yada. What crap.

I was once one of his biggest supporters and was among the first to take to the streets in his defense in the witch hunt but now I am just disgusted with him. He's lost my support.

Let's not make excuses for him, either. The man can multi-task quite well. No, he just doesn't get it, nor does Hillary. Get up to speed, Bill, or get the hell out of the way.



Cher

[stillcool]

10. I couldn't watch...

and I used to love to listen to him speak. He fell off the pedastal I had him on around the time of the election, and it's probably good practice for me,.. because I have a feeling a few more will be falling down anyday. The fact that I choose to elevate another human being to a status that is unsustainable to the mere mortal is what truly pisses me off.

[ClassWarrior]

12. Big kudos to Dave for bringing it up and being more accurate...

...about it than most Corporate Snews Whores. But I agree, Clinton was definitely disappointing.

NGU.

[senseandsensibility]

13. Yes kudos to Dave

Seriously. :loveya: Thanks for trying, Dave.

[FreedomAngel82]

17. Yep

I'm glad he brought it up too. Maybe now people will go to the internet and google what he's talking about.

[medeak]

16. "Cheney visited the CIA many times"

come on DU... the big dawg was great IMO

[Proud_Lefty]

18. Everything we see says something's up

He's become real chummy with Sr. Bush while Hillary is coincidentally becoming the front runner for the 2008 election even though she hasn't officially said she's even running. And the (right wing) media seems to have already decided that she's the Dem ticket. Why? She doesn't really seem all that popular amongst the democrats. This whole situation smells a little foul.

[GreenArrow]

35. "Luke.

I am your father."

[cobaindrain]

19. he knows exactly what it is

and he knows when and where to speak about it.

the dems are being smart with this, they're going to let it build slowly over the summer.

[Al-CIAda]

21. "he knows when and where to speak about it" -um, yeah, thats it.

He's playing stupid for the reasons he always does. He's a lying sack of shit.

[cobaindrain]

59. go back to freerepublic, clinton haters have no place here

[Dover]

22. If Clinton and much of Washington were aware of what Cheney & Bush

were up to (recognized they were manipulating intelligence to support an attack on Iraq) then WHY did they sign onto the War?

When Dems were asked this by outraged constituence, remember they argued that they all trusted Bush to keep his word and assumed the intelligence they were presented with by Bushco was accurate. So they said they were, essentially, tricked into signing on for the War.
Most of us here at D.U. were incredulous that they could have been taken in when everything pointed to these sorts of manipulations.
So, apparently, the Dems who signed on WEREN'T tricked. They knew.

And of course Kerry has HAD to take up the DSM cause, acting all outraged, because he had claimed he was taken in, like the others, regarding the intelligence.

[DemBones DemBones]

23. Yep. They weren't fooled at all, they just went along to

get along. I think they knew what was in the PATRIOT Act, too, but since it's so awful, they use its quick passage in the aftermath of 9/11 to give themselves deniability.

Clinton's performance last night was very telling. He pretended not to know what the DSM is but waxed poetic on the joys of his new relationship with the Bush family.

IMO, the powers that be have decided to put Hillary in the White House in 2008 (so what if Dems don't want her?) to sustain the myth that we are a democracy with a two-party system. In reality, we have no power, voting means nothing. Maybe making a lot of noise convinces them to back off on something, maybe not. But we should continue making noise; it's the only hope we have.

[patricia92243]

24. Didn't see it. Could he really not have known what it is. He has been

out of the country. And the fact is that most Americans don't know what it is.

Just wondering.

[slor]

25. Sorry for my late input...

but did you hear him admit moments later, that he had heard about it? He seemed to want to tone down his comments, maybe to not threaten his new pal poppy thug

[trapper914]

28. Didn't see it...

...so I'm probably talkin' out my ass here.

Could be that by playing dumb, he was making a subtle dig at the MSM for their lack of coverage. "How would I know what DSM is? No one is covering it?"

Politically, he may not want to say much at this point since so many of the sheeple have heard nothing about DSM. If they hear it first from Clinton on a comedy talk show, they may not take the information as seriously. Besides, I'm sure Big Dog would rather let Hillary lead the charge on this, since she's the Clinton who is still active politically. If Bill becomes the attack dog on DSM, he diminishes Hillary and other active Dem Senators.

OR

Maybe he's been bangin' chicks two at a time and really hasn't heard about DSM.

[Coexist]

30. I am WAY disillusioned with Clinton

can't even watch him anymore.

[flpoljunkie]

32. Am not amused Bill would like H.W. and Babs to adopt Hillary. Clip below.

http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/#

[Coexist]

33. that's just friggin' creepy

I can't believe how much I used to love that man.

[ElectroPrincess]

38. I'm with you ... yes he was a moderate and save for the witch hunt

his Presidency was successful. I agree with Michael Moore, Clinton was one of the best Republican Presidents. These "New Democrats", the DLC and tired old ba*tards that roll over for Republican tummy rubs (Biden, Lieberman, etc) are not IMO Democrats.

Twenty years ago, these folks would have the courage to DECLARE themselves Moderate Republicans. I want those days back because I can respect honesty and they do make many good points when comes time for a genuine compromise.

But no, I have come to the conclusion that Bill Clinton is a professional politician with a Republican Lite view of the world. Thats not all bad, but again, IMO he don't qualify as one of the Democrats I have known over the years.

[Boredtodeath]

34. Not defending him, but

As someone whose husband had open heart surgery, I will say it changes them dramatically.

I think it's about facing one's morality; understanding that one is not immortal.

They have a sudden rush to "accomplish" that which they think defines them as a person - to record their legacy.

Just sayin'......

[senseandsensibility]

56. Well, I understand your point

but I don't understand what "legacy" he thinks he is accomplishing by playing dumb. :shrug:

[Boredtodeath]

62. Perhaps?

Hillary as President? You don't think his buddying up to the Bush family is to accomplish that legacy?

The Clinton Political Dynasty.

[itcfish1]

41. The Whole DSM

scares me a bit. What if the whole thing is a Rove Plot? Remember who broke the Story? Rupert Murdoch.

[karynnj]

44. Didn't see the show, but wonder if it might be that he wanted to control

what he talked about. I am surprised that he didn't give a response similar to Kerry's that at least implied this had to be investigated - by the media or the government.

I think one conclusion may be that the Clintons were possibly more informed and aligned with Bush on Iraq than we currently know - it would make sense in that (from memory) neither spoke up as Bush ignored the fact that Iraq let the inspectors in and even destroyed missiles that would on the borderline of allowable. (They went too far when not carrying bombs.) Kerry spoke up very strongly at this time (Feb 2003) as did many others - but I don't think the Clintons did.

[americanstranger]

46. Okay, this is going to sound a little wacky.

But is it time to start to consider whether Clinton was in on the planning of the occupation of Iraq?

Look at this press release regarding the construction of the prison camp at Guantanamo (http://www.defense.gov/contracts/2002/c07262002_ct386-02.html):

Brown & Root Services, A Division of Kellogg Brown & Root, Arlington, Va., is being awarded $9,700,000 for Task Order 0019 under a cost-reimbursement, indefinite-delivery and indefinite-quantity construction contract for construction of a 204 unit Detention Camp, Phase III, located on the windward side of the Naval Station, at the Radio Range area of U.S. Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Units will be of modular steel construction. Each unit measures approximately 6 feet 8 inches by 8 feet and includes a bed, a toilet, and a hand basin with running water. Work will be performed in Guantanamo Bay and is to be completed by October 2002. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The basic contract was competitively procured with 44 proposals solicited, three offers received and award made on June 29, 2000. The total contract amount is not to exceed $300,000,000, which includes the base period and four option years. The Naval Facilities Engineering Command, Atlantic Division, Norfolk, Va., is the contracting activity (N62470-00-D-0005).

How could Bush's thugs have submitted that contract prior to Bush even being president?

Food for thought. And more than a little disturbing.

-as

[PATRICK]

49. It matters who is in charge

He also had plans to bomb NK before they got to the stage where they are now. Gore had talked up the pro-active foreign policy moves. Yes, they planned on putting the screws to Saddam. Bush in fact had gotten to that point of near total satisfaction less regime change but never intended to stop there. Bush ruined, transformed, and surpassed all the already ill advised American foreign policy moves to curb rising threats.

All the relationships connecting him to American policy are tainted, proved wrong by their extreme application and pushed it to a gamble of PNAC or bust for American influence.

By their inability to sever their ties with a monster we may justly accuse "wiser" heads with more "benign" intentions of being on the wrong track or plain old dupes. It is well worth discrediting and exposing the fear show and 19th Century European political and foreign policy philosophy by letting a clown loose in the control room.

If we do survive this. The older generation of American leadership on the whole is a miserable and bloody and blindly arrogant failure.

The Worst Generation. The one that got us into the Civil War and crankily botched the peace got away with in the mists of dramatic victory and minimal emancipation. This one is naked and rootless from top to bottom, a failure by every definition and rationale including its own. With all the ghosts of yesterday shouting "Never again!" being
scoffed at by useless lapdogs.

[mandomom]

48. Clinton playing straight man

to the burgeoning DSM story in MSM. Had Clinton jumped in with any comment whatsoever the right wing tali-fascists would simply begin wallpapering the nation with distractions and wild distortions. Too many so-called Americans still hate Clinton too much to give credence to anything he supports. His comment allowed the Letterman quote to percolate and grow in the minds of millions who are asking the same question that Clinton asked: "What is that?" Planting the question leads to demands for answers. Isn't that what we want? Keep this process anchored in grass roots.

[sundancekid]

51. bigdawg looks like weenie wiesel to me ... my tinfoil 2 cents says:

cent 1. second blowjob in the making: "wish I could get them to adopt Hillary" -- no doubt; why? because he'll say later: "because I could" -- more evidence of self-indulgent power mongering even at this life stage; Yoda is soooooooo right: "fear of loss of power leads to the Dark Side."

cent 2. seems to me weenie-dawg may even be complicit (indirectly) in the DSM -- who do we think Blair might have called in the middle of the night when he figured out that the PNACers were set on preemption, and he, the Shrub Poodle, would get fudged BIG TIME in the International Court venue?? sometimes these folks are too clever by half, IMHO.

</2 cents>

[Ravy]

52. What could he have said ot advance the cause???

Nothing.

Anyone who would be swayed by Clinton is already firmly in our camp. People know Bush lied.

Having Clinton give his opinion would simply make this look more political. I am sure he knows about DSM, and that he has an opinion on it. It is just not wise for him to enter the discussion at this point.

[coolhandlulu]

53. And another thing...

Why does that ball breaker Babs keep giving the thumbs up to Hillary for '08???????????????????????

I'm so confused!!! MUST ESCAPE THE MATRIX!!!!!!!!

[THUNDER HANDS]

55. *cough*he supported the war too*cough*

anyone forgetting this?

[MadHound]

57. Why are you so suprised that Clinton is showing his true colors?

He's out of office, he doesn't have to worry about being elected again, thus, he is free to flaunt his allegiance to the two party/same corporate master system of government uber alle.

This is no suprise, Clinton is just another corporate whore.

[DemocracyInaction]

58. Just more reason that I do not want Hillary in '08......

I don't need another Georgie but with longer hair and boobs occupying the Oval Office. She would devote her presidency to "handling" the Dems and telling them that she has all sorts of 'bad news' to break to the people but that they will just have to get along because there is nothing she can do, blah, blah. And then she will cut the ribbon officially to the front door of the USA for total and complete corporate take over.

[senseandsensibility]

61. Good point

Any candidate that is pushed by the corporate media is either being set up to lose, or would be just as bad as the repuke.