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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 09:39 PM
Original message
IS PNAC good or bad? Discuss...
I was reading through the PNAC (Project for the New American Century http://www.newamericancentury.org ) goals and mission statements again today, and I started thinking. Do they have a point?

The basic gist of PNAC's agenda is that we should use or military to aggressively protect our interests across the globe. We should ensure that America is #1, through force if necessary, for as long as we can. Aside from simply responding to threats however, we should feel obligated to preempt possible percieved threats in the interest of avoiding a large scale conflict later (and possible loss of influence in that region, both economic and political). The key issue is that we should do this through military force. This force should be capable of fighting many wars at once, in different regions of the world. Our nuclear supremacy should be maximized by not dismantling our weapons, but ensuring that our non-allies do. By doing so we might "build upon the achievements of past decades," and "shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests."

Now here is why they might be right. Why shouldn't we fight to shape a century that is favorable to us? It is not wrong or immoral to want to see a century in which America is the world leader in all things, with the best economy, best democracy, happiest most comfortable citizentry, longterm sustainability, basically Utopia! We are all stupid if we don't agree with this statement, and there is nothing wrong with agreeing with me on this. I didn't say that everyone else should be living off our scraps like they currently are, but we all would like to envision a future in which we all live a happy and prosperous life.

So that is where I agree with PNAC, it IS the right thing for us to work towards securing American interests abroad! BUT, the major flaw in the neo-con theory is that they are WAY to fond of the military.

Just as I would expect EVERY American citizen to want to see the best for his/her country in the future, I would also expect every other citizen of any country in this world to want the exact same thing! Even in the Bible (or any religious text for that matter) it was not written that America shall rule the globe. So who gave us the right to impose our interests on other countries, especially with military powers. Trying to secure your interests through military power, and practicing this ideal actively as our current administration does, is the equivalent of EMPIRE building, and there is NO OTHER WAY YOU CAN POSSIBLY FRAME IT!

It is exactly what Britain did to the America's and India, what the Dutch did to Indonesia, the Spanish and Portugese to South America, the Romans, the Mongols, Alexander the Great, Hannibal, the Persians, the Assyrians, I could go on forever. Securing YOUR personal interests through military action is IMPERIALISM by definition!

Why can't some people in this country see that. Either they are blind because they think we're too moral to do something like that, or they're selfish and think that's how we should be doing it. The administation is selfish, and that's why they're playing this game of russian roulette with our future. It is way to dangerous for us to expect that we can keep our allies by engaging in preemptive military campaigns against whomever we feel has threatened our interests. It is equally dangerous to expect every campaign to go successfully (as we are starting to observe with their very first preemptive war). They don't seem to understand that with their plan, our enemies have nothing to gain by complying with our demands, therefore they have nothing to lose by dying trying to fight us.

We would be much more successful building our "empire" through diplomacy. We can always be #1, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage, and even help other countries to raise the status of their citizens to a point at which their lives are peaceful and sustainable. Instead of using their citizens as cheap labor for our evergrowing capital machine, we could expand their to help them as well. Don't exploit everybody around the world, that just makes enemies! Help them, everyone in this world deserves food, shelter, drinkable water, basic medical care, and a tiny bit of dignity. The people around the world are not ATM machines, they are PEOPLE, and they have every right to expect better for themselves and their children, just like we do.

That being said, of course there would be crazy leaders of outlaw regimes in this world that would pose serious threats to our interests and our lives. But don't you think it would be easier to deal with these individuals in a world in which America was seen as the good guy, the country to turn to for guidance, the world-leader in an economic, political, moral, and military sense.

PNAC's ideals are correct, but the road they wish to travel in getting there is by far the more treacherous route. You don't make many friends when you're the schoolyard bully. There is no reason why we can't have civil discourse with other nations around the globe and work with them to create a more peaceful and sustainable world. Yes, we MAY end up in a War we can't win, but if the neo-cons have their way, there will be NO WAY TO AVOID IT!
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is this a serious question????
n/t
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. All I have to say about that is ...
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. You're kidding, right? (nt)
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. HOLD ON! Maybe some countries don't wish to be "America Junior"
"Why can't some people in this country see that. Either they are blind because they think we're too moral to do something like that, or they're selfish and think that's how we should be doing it."

If America wants to dictate to the world how to exist, then that is not America, that is an imperial tyranny.

:eyes:
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da_chimperor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bye. n/t
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instantkarma Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm sure Che would have approved
all that dominatin' and subjugatin'...
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. I kept looking looking at the picture of Che
while reading the article praising PNAC, it seemed just a tad out of place. I don't want America to dominate the rest of the world. We need global cooperation. Wanting to control other people's lives is what repugs do, they try to legislate morality and we don't need to do that on a global scale.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. as a matter of fact, I'm sure he would have
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. The PNAC ideals
are to make the PNAC members and their toadies filthy rich.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. Maybe your history is deficient...
... but empires always fail. They especially fail when they wish to finance imperial ambition with foreign debt--precisely the case with the US now.

Let's take some of your statements in order:

"Why shouldn't we fight to shape a century that is favorable to us?"

You fail to define "us." There are conflicting interests in any imperial adventure, and foremost among those now are those of the ordinary people of this country, of multinational corporations which use their influence to engage our military for their interests, and then there are the interests of those around the world whose lives are made worse, in one way or another, by US imperial actions. Who is really benefitting here?

"It is not wrong or immoral to want to see a century in which America is the world leader in all things, with the best economy, best democracy, happiest most comfortable citizentry, longterm sustainability, basically Utopia!"

I'm wondering where you learned your ethics. It is wrong and immoral (and illegal) to use military force to accomplish those aims at the expense of the people of the rest of the world--the ultimate effect of imposing our will on others.

"We are all stupid if we don't agree with this statement, and there is nothing wrong with agreeing with me on this."

Most assuredly there is something wrong with agreeing with your statement. We are not entitled to usurp the sovereignty of others for the sake of the profits accruing to our multinational corporations or for the political ambitions of people such as George Bush.

"I didn't say that everyone else should be living off our scraps like they currently are, but we all would like to envision a future in which we all live a happy and prosperous life."

You didn't say it, because it would invalidate your argument. In fact, that is precisely what has been happening for decades in the rest of the developing and undeveloped world. We cannot extract wealth, in colonial fashion (something you approve of in the quest for an American utopia) for our benefit without the further impoverishment of such peoples. And, in fact, that is what has happened. The activities of the United States in recent decades have made poor nations poorer, have thrown a monkey wrench into their programs for social improvement and have intentionally contributed to their political instability.

More simply, your belief in the exceptional nature of the United States is predicated on our willingness to spend more money on weapons and a standing army than virtually all other countries of the world combined, and our willingness to use that military force to benefit our corporations. That's contrary to international law, our own laws and by any measure of human decency.

It will also ultimately cause our own downfall, as with every other empire in history.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. HEAR, HEAR!!
Our downfall will also be one of the most rapid in history as well...

Can you say "peak oil", children? This stupid economy is floating on the sea of cheap oil that is running out.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. cough cough
keep reading

especially that part about how they needed another pearl harbor

cough cough

damn! 9/11 was PERRRRFECT!
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Geezus.....
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
11. And WHO exactly would be doing the real policing and fighting?
Surely not the rich war profiteers, so what you are asking is that our kids and our kids, kids grow up to be good little soldiers...
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. Gee, I dunno...but!!
Most of the original signers of the PNAC are acting members of our current admin...or are in some part of gov't somewhere, doing something (secret/behind the scenes)...so tell me...what do you think of the things they've accomplished so far, on the road THEY DECIDED we should travel in our effort to become THE WORLD POWER in the 21st Century. IF that doesn't give you your answer about whether the PNAC has good or bad ideals, ideas, whatever...then I really don't know what to tell you...but your post did confuse me just a hair and seems as though it contradicted itself somewhat...
windbreeze
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
13. I prefer a Global Village to a Pax Americana.
With almost instant satellite communications making Marshal McCluhan's "Global Village" a reality, we are on the verge of an interdependant global environment where securing the interests of one country means securing the interests of all. A true "no man is an island" world.

For America to become the policemen of the world means Empire. Empires have a tendency to become oppressive, breeding revolution and chaos.

Building an Empire through diplomacy still creates an Empire, which eventually finds some "justification" to switch from diplomacy to police action.

Yes, I would like to see America as a world leader - a leader in ideas and ideals, not self-interest.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
15. That sort of thinking really worked well for
Persia, Carthage, Egypt, Greece, Rome, the "Holy Roman Empire", Spain, England, the Third Reich, the Soviet Union or any of the hundreds of "empires" in human history, didn't it?

Why the F*ck would anyone think that doing the same thing over and over will have a different result.

Empires can NEVER bring a world of peace and plenty, only a world of economic divisions and strife.

The greatest crime the bushistas committed was losing a golden moment right after 9/11. They could have (well, not them, they're troglydites, but someone rational in charge could have) said to the world, "We are very grateful for your sympathy and support. We have analyzed our own actions and their contributions to the retaliation we've sustained and have decided that we should become fully participating world citizens instead of selfish empire builders. Instead of grabbing more and more of the earths bounty for our own exclusive, selfish, consumerist economy, we're going to apply a large part of our prodigious talent, intellect and compassion to bettering the lot of those who up until now we've exploited. We do this to make a better world for all of us, to build a better future for every living thing on Earth."


I know, dreamer. But if noone dreams the dream, we'll continue to live the nightmare.
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Kenneth ken Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. nice post Dad
your children should be at least as proud of you as you are of them.

:applause:

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Kenneth ken Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
16. bad
Edited on Sat Jun-18-05 01:06 AM by Kenneth ken
I've recently been thinking about the phrase "national interests" - what does that mean exactly?

I've concluded it means corporate profits. Nothing more, nothing less.

Who benefits from our $400+ billion a year military might? Mostly the corporations that build the weapons. The humans who make the personnel of the miltary don't earn a lot of money; if they get wounded or killed in US adventures which really do nothing more than punish countries for not bending to the yoke of US imperialism, they are casually tossed aside, and replacement personnel are sought.

How many schools could have been built over the past 60 years by diverting most of the "Defense" budget toward actually improving life in the US? How many teachers hired? How much mass transportation provided? How much health care provided? How many people in the US lifted out of poverty if good paying jobs were considered a higher priority than corporate profits?

Regarding the rest of the world; why do they hate us? Because we interfere in their countries, and dictate to them policies which subordinate their own ability to care for their citizens to the greed and profitization of US corporate interests.

PNAC is nothing more than a tyrannical dream for global conquest. It has no concern for the majority of the PEOPLE of the US; only the consolidation of power to protect the few. Did the PNACers give a single thought to how many US lives would be lost in invading and occupying Iraq? Clearly not; As lean a force as possible, so that - in their own words - forces would be available for fighting other wars on other fronts.

Fuck PNAC and any one who even thinks for a moment their unquenchable lust for power has any merit.

edit to bump up the military might number.

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Actually it's $765.6 billion per year
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Kenneth ken Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. thanks
I put a + in my post. :) I don't really want to get into an argument with anyone over the precise numbers; just point out other uses to which much of that money could be put, and why that makes any PNAC "better America" junk nothing more imperialistic bs.

:hi:

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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
21. I've been published on PNAC.........
And I would say that they definitely are not a good thing. If you take the premise of promoting American ideals and interests (meaning Democracy and Economics) as well as the concept of reforming and modernizing the Middle East, it sounds good on paper. PNAC's manifesto "Rebuilding America's Defenses" is an interesting -in context, frightening - academic exercise. Yet, what it really amounts to is American Imperialism, in which, a few rich oligarchs and dictatorial politicians effectively own the world's resources. Also, the idea of fighing theater wars and using our troops for constabulary duties means that we are fighting perpetual war for perpetual peace. It all would never truly work. Too expensive and too bloody. Pretty evil stuff, really.
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LunaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
22. "It is important to shape circumstances..." - PNAC Stmt. of Principles
Any philosophical group that believes in lies, obfuscations, deception, betrayal and manipulation as a means to accomplish its objectives can never be considered beneficial. Those are sociopathic traits that are self-serving in nature.

Next.....

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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
23. Stalin, a BAD GUY or just misunderstood?
Thought I'd contribute something to the thread in the same vein. He wanted to create a utopia too.:shrug:
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
24. Why are you asking that stupid question?
Do you not know better? If not start studying - or, is this a joke?
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
25. Dear B in B,
Any comments?
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Hit-n-Run Post
Maybe he's just embarrassed.
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Sure seems so
Welcome to DU! :hi:
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
27. It would have had Hilters 100% endorsement.......n/t
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
30. Interesting post, interesting answers.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
31. Bwahahahahhaaaaaaaahahhhhaaaa!
:rofl:
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