Howard Dean Slams Conyers' DSM Participant

[Pryderi]

Can the Dems stop stepping on their collective dicks?

"One witness, former intelligence analyst Ray McGovern, told Conyers and other House Democrats that the war was part of an effort to allow the United States and Israel to "dominate that part of the world," a statement Dean also condemned.

"As for any inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could 'dominate' the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America, let me say unequivocally that such statements are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric," Dean said.

"The inferences are destructive and counterproductive, and have taken away from the true purpose of the Judiciary Committee members' meeting," he said. "The entire Democratic Party remains committed to fighting against such bigotry.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/17/AR2005061701249.html

[coloradodem2005]

1. I don't entirely understand what the hell is going on.

[Pryderi]

2. I think the Washington Post is purposely sabotaging the Dems.

[sandnsea]

26. Ya think?

I thought that was an AP article. If it originated with the Post, it's worse. Because Howard was responding to a WaPo article written by Dana Milbank and they make it sound like he just up and attacked the forum out of the blue. If the WaPo wrote both of them, just wow.

Total sabatoge.

[Just Me]

84. Yes. And if they are intentionally engaging in sabotage,...

,...we should collectively step on their proverbial dicks.

This is really, really making me angry. :grr:

[meppie-meppie not]

95. and the Dem's need to wake up and realize this. I watched the

hearing twice and taking this quote out of context and not even accurately reporting McGovern's words is just a smoke and mirrors routine by the GOP's once again. Let's not deal with the true content of the hearings no, let's just throw out a red herring to divert attention away from the real issue which is to IMPEACH THE CROOKS!! Damn this pisses me off!!!

[flpoljunkie]

47. Read what McGovern said "allow the UNITED STATES & Israel to dominate..."

One witness, former intelligence analyst Ray McGovern, told Conyers and other House Democrats that the war was part of an effort to allow the United States and Israel to "dominate that part of the world," a statement Dean also condemned.
__________________

Unwarranted and paranoid criticism of a "straw man" assertion that McGovern did not make.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bvar22]

108. More bitter flailing and blame from the "Republican Wing"

of the Democratic Party.
Al Fromm of the DLC blames the liberals in the Democratic Party for the losses of the last 8 years which were engineered by the Corporatist Democrats. According to Fromm, if we just get rid of all the Labor Union rabble rousers, environmentalists, low class working people, and the Millions who like Michael Moore, the Democratic Party would be a nice place for the decent folks like him and his RICH friends.

Maybe Al Fromm is right.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FightinNewDem]

129. Oooh, the "freeper" charge!

Listen, kiddo, spend some time in the real political trenches, and maybe, just maybe, you can come back and throw the "freeper" tag at me. I'll venture that I've been electing Democrats and passing progressive legislation for a lot longer than you've been on the scene.

[Clark2008]

127. Hmmm... seems to me the Dem with the most foreign policy

experience - even more so than any Republican - is Wesley Clark, who is NOT a DLCer.

Judging from the sheer numbers of letters and emails the national media is receiving from its reader/viewerships, the DSM *IS* striking a chord outside of Berkeley, Madison and Cambridge.

[FightinNewDem]

130. Oh. here we go with the DLC angle

Funny...Clark's speech in Manchester last week struck a lot of DLC themes.

Oh, and tell me why Clark's people distributed "Waging Modern War" at the '02 DLC conference in New York?

And tell me why Clark has addressed DLC conferences and submitted articles to DLC publications?

Oh...sorry. Let's not tamper with DU's favorite shibboleth, shall we?

[Clark2008]

136. Funny, Clark is not on the New Dem list.

Oh, and tell me how many DLCers came out against the war before it started? Clark did.

And tell me how many DLCers are funded by huge corporations? Clark took the least money from corporations than any of the other Dem candidates in the 2004 primaries.

Oh... sorry to bust your bubble.

BUT, if you like him as a "new Dem," all the better to unite the party, I say.

[me b zola]

134. Dana, is that you?

I believe you have a larger forum, WAPO, with which to undermine any hope of restoring democracy:grr:

[Melodybe]

3. Judy is jewish, maybe he took McGovern's remarks personally.

Or maybe the Washington Post is a POS RW newspaper!?!

[Pryderi]

4. I just finished watching the meeting on C-SPAN2, if Dean didn't watch it

and didn't understand the context in which the statements were made, he should shut up until he finds out the facts.

[rodeodance]

6. I did not hear McGovern say it that way!!--and i watched it twice so far.

Sorry to see Dean say this--crap.

[Nikki Stone 1]

27. What EXACTLY did he say?

The EXACT quote.

This looks like the press was willing to throw ANY mud possible at the Conyers protest. God forbid anyone should look at the DSM!

[digno dave]

113. What, Dean speaking w/o thinking first...never!

[Imagevision]

74. Hey, Howard Dean - why so silent on DSM -give your supporters

A CLUE??!!............

[bettyellen]

138. Hey! why not start several threads about that...

and ignore the answers?
LOL.

[On the Road]

5. Dean is Strongly pro-Israel, pro-AIPAC

That's probably his least attractive quality IMO.

[theplutsnw]

9. then why did he get blasted for saying

we need to be even handed with Isreal and Palestine during the primaries?

[Guaranteed]

12. Great point, but let's drop it all. nt

[theplutsnw]

15. totally agree, this is pointless.

[sandnsea]

28. Because words have meaning

The words he used described specific Israel/Palestine foreign policies. I don't remember the details now, but I know I tried to explain it at the time. The words meant a kind of policy that hadn't gone over too well and we had moved to not dealing with Arafat. Even-handed and honest broker implied not taking sides at all and dealing with Arafat again or something along those lines, IIRC. We have moved to a more honest position of being a clear friend to Israel lately, for better or worse.

[On the Road]

58. Yeah, That Was Incredible

Any American politician is going to use the phrase "even-handed" in describing his attitude. How anyone could be criticized for saying that is completely beyond me.

However, Dean himself has specifically described his policies as being close to AIPAC. It not an accusation -- that what he himself says.

[bribri16]

55. I am part Jewish and I AM THROUGH WITH DEAN!!!

I am so sick about this nation and its leaders.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bribri16]

88. Well, I am not a "freeper" and that was not me but I will repeat what

I said in another post:

It's a tactic used by the RW here and the Likud in Isarel
When the evidence is against you, cry anti-Americanism or anti-Semitism and scare people away from telling the truth. I just refuse to buy it. If anti-Israel literature was passed out during this hearing I'll bet anything that pro-Israeli and pro-neocon supporters did it to try to discredit the hearings and the people involved. It's a tactic that they have used for decades AND it has worked. But we must not let them get away with it now. Our very nation is at stake.

[dorktv]

123. Look, could you stop with the hysteria for about five seconds and

wait until we find out what Dean ACTUALLY said, how many times have you seen him being quoted comepletely out of context?

And he is married to a very lovely woman who is Jewish and has raised his kids (from what I understand) in the faith. So maybe it did hit close to home. Who knows? :shrug:

[aquart]

76. Well, I'm all Jewish and I'm not.

I thank him for insisting that anti-Semitism is NOT a liberal cause. Because sometimes it's damned hard to tell.

[Tigress DEM]

117. Because he stood up against pulling Israel through the muck with BushCo?

I think, as usual Dean may have been taken out of context and the Washington Post has already carried one bad article, "Democrats Play House to Rally Against the War." which I have asked MoveOn to use as an example to press everywhere of how not to cover political events. (ie with eyes and ears closed and your head up your rear.)

Conyers himself was not aware of the content of those flyers and said that the purpose of the rally was not to accuse Israel of wrong doing. Dean may know more than we do (ie what is the equivilant to a freeper at a political rally who hands out damming materials to bring shame upon the rally itself?)

The rethugs were really afraid of this event. They denied Conyers a regular meeting room and stuck him in the basement. They scheduled 11 floor votes during the 3 hours his Conference was scheduled to run - so that those who did support Conyers had to run back and forth to get their work done.

I wouldn't put it past them to plant someone to distrubute literature that would take away from the legitimacy of the event.

[Andromeda]

124. You're overreacting...

to something Dean may or may not have said in the context he may or may not have meant it to be in. The WaPo is notorious for misquoting Democrats and stirring up trouble so don't get your knickers in a knot over nothing.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with Dean defending Israel, so what's your beef? Just because you may be a liberal that doesn't mean you have to be anti-Israel.

[Andromeda]

125. I don't find it particularly attractive

to parse Dean's words either. There's nothing "unattractive" about Dean taking exception to comments that cast aspersions on a particular group of people. One of the least attractive traits to me is the assumption that Democrats aren't supposed to "like" Israel for whatever twisted reason you have for saying what you said.

[Pepperbelly]

131. are questions about Israel's activities and motives aspersions ...

against all Jews?

If so, does that mean that Israel's activities and motives should not be examined by anyone else? That seems to be a pretty privileged class of nation-state if so.

[tandem5]

7. the neocons are fishing and we're jumping on the hooks nt

[Bravo411]

103. Send Pryderi a message ...

Tell him to go fishing somewhere else.
--------------------------------------------
He got me at first, but it only took a couple minutes for me to get myself free from his line. You may be able to fool a Democrat, but only for a short time.

[Wetzelbill]

8. Our Dems make me totally sick half the time

It's like watching the Three Stooges or something.

[Guaranteed]

10. This is seriously pointless. We oughta drop it right now.

No one should have said anything about Israel, either McGovern or Dean. No one should have brought it up, or responded.

Let's NOT do this.

[kerrygoddess]

23. What the?

McGovern did not say anything wrong, nor did did he say anything the American people don't have a right to know and understand. He made no inuendos and justified his comments.

As Joe Wilson said more than once in that hearing they were there doing the civil duty.

[janx]

128. Dean's concern has nothing to do with McGovern

It has to do with the "literature" that someone distributed at the DNC.

[stillcool]

11. the Post strikes again?

Ray McGovern in his letter to Dana Milbank http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/ expounded on this point nicely. Why Howard Dean feels it necessary to parse words, or feign indignation is beyond me. This hands-off type of posturing by party reps...re the 'truth', is disturbing. Once again, the silence is deafening.

[rodeodance]

14. read this paragraph-- (but his comments are still confusing to me)

.....According to Dean, some material distributed within the DNC conference room implied that Israel was involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

"One witness, former intelligence analyst Ray McGovern, told Conyers and other House Democrats that the war was part of an effort to allow the United States and Israel to "dominate that part of the world," a statement Dean also condemned.

"As for any inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could 'dominate' the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America, let me say unequivocally that such statements are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric," Dean said.
........

[stillcool]

17. it sounds to me like...

the doctor made comments in response to someone's interpretation of the hearing, rather than from his own impression.

[kerrygoddess]

22. hmmm....

If I am noot mistaken McGovern justified his Israel statements. No big secret, the O.I.L. acronym!

I can see being ticked about anti-semitism literature being passed around the DNC but not about McGovern's comments.

[anitar1]

29. I distinctly remember McGovern prefacing his OIL

remark, by saying he would be called anti semitic for mentioning this.If one even questions Sharon or the US policy, then you are labeled anti semite.We are supposed to hate the Palestinian people according to who? McGovern was NOT making anti semite remarks. He was speaking of policy. And I do not believe that hate material about Jews, was being passed around. If so , why did so many congress people speak, who happen to be Jewish?? This is pure Puke crap.

[Clark2008]

53. This is exactly the case.

I've been called anti-Semitic because I question Israel's policies.

Which is the funniest damn thing I've ever been called because my ex husband is Palestinian (Arabs are ALSO Semitic), my son is half Semitic and my current beau is Jewish - and he agrees with my assessment of the hard-assed policies of Sharon.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. Kinda like Frist diagnosing Terri Schiavo without seeing her in person,

isn't it?

[FreedomAngel82]

110. Have you ever read the PNAC plans??

The neocons are VERY pro-Israel. Part of their plans, along with getting the oil from the middle east, is to make it to where Israel rules the middle east. I've studied these people and all their plans. You can read about it yourself on PNAC website's. If you visit http://www.newamericancentury.org you can read all of their plans there. Also visit http://www.informationclearinghouse.info and you can watch the video "The War Party" which is about the neocons. It's true what McGovern says. The neocons are VERY VERY VERY VERY pro-Israel and want them to rule the middle east. Damn everybody else. Israel could have WMD's and while Bush is damning everybody else in the mid east for having nuke's will give Israel a pass and they could bomb another country around them (like Iran shall we say) and they wouldn't even bat an eye or care.

[Blue_In_AK]

13. WTF? I've never understood this "anti-semitism" thing...

Just because a person questions the policies of the government of Israel and our administration's alliance with that government doesn't make that person anti-Semitic. That's ridiculous. There's no racism involved in such criticism. Semite is a RACE ... and includes Arabs. I mean, if somebody in Africa doesn't like the policies of George Bush, does that make them anti-Caucasian? It doesn't seem to follow.

I watched the hearing twice, and I personally thought Mr. McGovern's point was well-taken.

[Frederik]

46. Read "By way of deception"

by former Mossad case officer Victor Ostrovsky. He details how Israel/the Mossad, through organizations such as the B'nai Brith, seek to target as "anti-semites" every opponent of right-wing Israeli policy. In this case, it's just ridiculous on its face to use the label "anti-semitic" about McGovern and his statements. Dean should apologize to McGovern, or I'll really start to lose my respect for him.

[Frederik]

51. Hmm, he didn't actually condemn McGovern?

If it was only about pamphlets being handed out, then ok. They could have been "vile, anti-semitic" for all I know.

[Eloriel]

82. Here's how the anti-Semitic meme came about -- by design!!

Halper: Yes. Anti-Semitism feeds on the idea that Israel is a victim. The Foreign Ministry of Israel invented a new form of anti-Semitism in the last few years called the 'New anti-Semitism,' and they then found some professors willing to give it some academic credibility. The New anti-Semitism that is now being spread all over says that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism, period. And it has been very effective.

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/module.php?mod=book&op=print&id=806

The whole article is worth reaading.

[ProudDad]

16. THAT ISN'T WHAT McGovern Meant

God DAMN IT.

Even f*ckin' Dean can't get it right!!!!

I heard it and saw it live on CSPAN-3, I doubt that Dean did.

Dissing Israel's right-wing wing-nut government, their vicious occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and their illegal apartheid wall is NOT anti-Semitic!

Also, for those of you who can't seem to understand what anti-semitic really means;

Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/semites.htm

To be pro-justice and peace in the Middle East is hardly "anti-Semitic" but rather the opposite.

And as long as the state of Israel is propped up to the tune of over $3 Billion a year to be part of the U.S. empire, they deserve all the condemnation that the peaceful people of the world can heap upon them.

[Blue_In_AK]

18. Thank you, you said that much better than I did... n/t

[meppie-meppie not]

96. hear, hear!!! Well said and TY because I'm so sick of hearing

the "anti-Semitic" charge bandied about anytime one criticizes the Israelis.

[IndianaGreen]

19. Dean is kissing AIPAC's ass by using a strawman argument

He should concentrate on demanding the impeachment of Bush and Cheney for plunging this country into a war of aggression.

McGovern never said what Dean accused him of saying.

[bklyncowgirl]

32. Dean did not mention McGovern in his statement

Unless you are talking about some other statement Dean made the official DNC statement only references literature that was passed around at the overflow hearing that was hosted at the DNC.

Please see my post #30 below.

McGovern was careful in his statement and did not, in my opinion, say anything anti-semetic although some people may construe it as such.

The people who distributed the conspiracy literature at DNC did something which could seriously damage Conyers work.

Conyers and Dean are essentially on the same page on this and I strongly recommend that people read both statements before hurling insults.

[ProudDad]

114. I DID read Dean's statement

before I posted.

Dean said, "As for any inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could 'dominate' the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America, let me say unequivocally that such statements are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric." http://democrats.org/news/200506170001.html

I assumed the "inference" Dean was talking about was Mr. McGovern's statement which was the only mention of Israel I heard during the entire hearing.

If I was wrong, I apologise to Mr. Dean.

The point is that he SHOULD HAVE PILED ON. All of the Dems should be "ON POINT". They should all be hammering the little asshole in the White House or they will continue to be the impotent minority party they are at the moment.

He should have said that the evidence so far indicates that the Congress should impeach shrub.

:nuke: shrub

[Idioteque]

20. Condeming Sharon isn't anti-Israel...

...just as dissing Bush isn't anti-American. Unfortunetly, some irresponsible people were handing out literature saying that Israel played a part in 9/11. Somehow, this got mixed with Mr. McGovern's factually accurate statement about American-Israeli relations.

Dean had every right to condemn the literature but Mr. McGovern did not say anything remotely anti-semitic, anti-zionist, or anti-Israel.

I love Dr. Dean as much as everybody else. However I was in a web chat with him a while ago and he kept spelling Israel "Isreal". He did it like 5 times. For a Yale and Columbia educated doctor who cares so much about Israel, maybe he should learn to spell it correctly.

[FreedomAngel82]

111. I personally

haven't read anything about Israel and 9/11. Mostly about the Saudi's helping.

[laugle]

122. I totallly agree with your post,

I am Jewish and can't stand what Sharon is doing, it certainly doesn't make you anti-semitic. However, because of the Iraq war and 911, I have noticed a rise in anti-semitism. And it is disturbing.......

[Idioteque]

126. There has been a rise in anti-semitism and anti-arabism

I've noticed that anti-semitism seems to be situated at the extremes, the far left and the far right. Anti-arabism, however, has become a common part of "mainstreem" Republicanism. If you listen to Hannity and Limbaugh or read FreeRepublic or protest warrior, you often see "Islam is a religion of hate." and "Arabs are animals."

Here on the centre-left, we try to discourage all forms of prejudice. As an arab-american, I do everything I can to stop anti-semitism and hatred of Israel. My Jewish friends try to promote tolerance of Arabs and muslims. It appears that folks on the right are unable to see that ANY prejudice is wrong. In their opinion, hate is only wrong when it is aimed at the wrong people.

[Proud_Lefty]

21. Why are you falling for the bait again?

:shrug:

[Pepperbelly]

132. Who fell for it? Dean or his detractors? Or both? nt

[ngGale]

24. Understand what he said, but...

I don't believe he said it.

[sandnsea]

25. Yes can we

The media is on high spin mode on this and we can either buy into it or call them on their shit.

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=1102

[Disturbed]

31. "Ray McGovern was NOT making anti semite remarks.

I agree. Howard is usually correct but not this time.

[sandnsea]

62. *sigh*

The accusations from Milbank are out there, the stupid 9/11 literature is out there. Dean had to respond.

The story is the media creating an anti-semitic story, requiring Dean to respond, then turning around and portraying Dean's response as an attack.

And I'm no Dean apologist either.

[bklyncowgirl]

30. Please stop taking GOP bait--Dean and Conyers on the same page here

From Conyers letter to Washington Post

"In what can only be described as a deliberate effort to discredit the entire hearing, Milbank quotes one of the witnesses as making an anti-semitic assertion and further describes anti-semitic literature that was being handed out in the overflow room for the event. First, let me be clear: I consider myself to be friend and supporter of Israel and there were a number of other staunchly pro-Israel members who were in attendance at the hearing. I do not agree with, support, or condone any comments asserting Israeli control over U.S. policy, and I find any allegation that Israel is trying to dominate the world or had anything to do with the September 11 tragedy disgusting and offensive.

That said, to give such emphasis to 100 seconds of a 3 hour and five minute hearing that included the powerful and sad testimony (hardly mentioned by Milbank) of a woman who lost her son in the Iraq war and now feels lied to as a result of the Downing Street Minutes, is incredibly misleading. Many, many different pamphlets were being passed out at the overflow room, including pamphlets about getting out of the Iraq war and anti-Central American Free Trade Agreement, and it is puzzling why Milbank saw fit to only mention the one he did."

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Congressman_Conyers_hammers_the_Washington_Posts_D_0617.html

"From DNC Chairman Statement on Anti-Semitic Literature
Washington, DC - Howard Dean, Chairman of the Democratic National Committee, issued the following statement condemning the distribution of anti-Semitic literature at an overflow room of an event organized by staff of the United States House of Representatives Judiciary Committee:

"Yesterday members of the Judiciary Committee held an important hearing on the so-called Downing Street Memo and its implications. Unfortunately, some members of the audience took it upon themselves to distribute anti-Semitic literature at the Wasserman Conference room where an overflow crowd observed the proceedings on television. We disavow the anti-Semitic literature, and the Democratic National Committee stands in absolute disagreement with and condemns the allegations.

"As Americans we believe in the right to free speech, and as Democrats we open our doors to a variety of opinions and perspectives from our fellow Americans. Unlike the current administration, we do not believe that closed hearings, restricted audiences, and carefully scripted meetings are good for our democracy. But anti-Semitism and bigotry are unacceptable and un-American, and they have no place in civil political discourse. As for any inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could 'dominate' the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America, let me say unequivocally that such statements are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric. The inferences are destructive and counter productive, and have taken away from the true purpose of the Judiciary Committee Members' meeting. The entire Democratic Party remains committed to fighting against such bigotry."

http://www.democrats.org/news/200506170001.html

This anti-semitic crap is being used to discredit and divide the movement. I for one would not be surprised if the fliers in question were being passed out by people hired by Karl Rove.

[FrenchieCat]

33. Loved this part....

"I for one would not be surprised if the fliers in question were being passed out by people hired by Karl Rove. "

You and me, dear insightful Chairman Conyers!

[Pepperbelly]

133. Please explain to me how ...

"... inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could 'dominate' the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America" are, in Dr. Dean's words, "... are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric"?

Isn't that a question of fact rather than rhetoric? Either those things are true or they are not. I do not understand why asking the question is anti-Semitic.

[LightningFlash]

34. This entire thing was a totally bad misunderstanding.

It seems like every dog and their mother took issue of this misunderstanding, which sets to distract from the absolute importance of the hearings.

For crying out loud, this was statements made in literature passed out at the DNC which specifically targeted Israel. There was no statements made during the meeting, by McGovern, or anyone regarding anti-israeily rhetoric.

There was statements regarding PNAC. PNAC clearly as evidence shows had a deal with Israeli's PAC team which is full of extremists. That was not part of the record and there was no bashing Israelis.

It had to do with clear cut sects of government-- Extremist Israelis, Extremist Christians, those groups and their profiters. EXTREMIST, and Howard Dean has since dropped this issue.

My god everything gets taken out of context today, don't let it happen to you.

[Boo Boo]

35. OK, Dean just pissed me off!

This is obviously coordinated because Conyers said the same thing, almost verbatim, although in his letter to the Post he did not name names. I take this as appeasement of certain factions---AIPAC, etc.

Equating criticism/recognition of right wing elements in Israel with anti-Semitism plays right into the hands of the PNAC crowd---it is exactly the language used by Kristol, et al any time someone dares to point out that Wolfowitz, Perle, and Feith (to name a few) have coordinated their machinations with the Israeli right wing (Netanyahu, Sharon...). Obviously, this is a hot potato and I can understand why the DNC would want to distance themselves, but accusing someone like Ray McGovern of anti-Semitism is way over the top, IMO.

OTOH, McGovern, et al should focus like a laser beam on the impeachable offenses and not use DSM to try to "blow the lid" off of PNAC. The media has pointedly ignored PNAC for quite some time now. They are fully aware of it, and will not give it fair coverage. Milbank's hatchet job is what you can expect for daring to talk about it. Don't fuck up a good thing (DSM) by overreaching. Wanna know when the MSM will cover PNAC fairly? The day the FBI busts somebody like Perle or Feith for spying on the US for Israel, that's when. Otherwise, fuggettaboutit.

It's interesting to compare the knee-jerk accusation of anti-Semitism, or the calculated use of it by PNAC types, to the criticism by the Daily Show the other night of the use of "Nazi" in political discourse. I'd say that everything Stewart said about using Nazi references can be applied at least in equal measure to accusations of anti-Semitism.

[bklyncowgirl]

36. Read Dean's statement. Did not mention McGovern

Dean's statement dealt with the literature that was handed out at the DNC.

http://www.democrats.org/news/200506170001.html

Unless you have a link to something else he said that specifically mentioned Mr. McGovern, I'd refrain from joining in the chorus.

Like it or not, allegations or antisemitism are exactly the sort of garbage that could doom anyone trying to take a hard look at the activities of this bunch of war criminals in the White House.

[Boo Boo]

38. Thanks for pointing that out, I had mistaken the

the first quote as a quote of Dean. I'm glad he didn't mention McGovern in that context. He's basically echoing Conyers statements in his letter to Milibank.

I absolutely agree that allegations of antisemitism are what you can expect. I think Dems should refrain from aiding and abetting those that employ that dirty little tactic, unless of course you just can't avoid it---unless something really is antisemitic. Otherwise, find another way to distance yourself from the subject.

OTOH, I haven't seen the flyers that were being handed out. Maybe there was something nasty there. I wouldn't put it past Karl Rove to send somebody down there to pass out flyers---it would be a classic K. Rove dirty trick.

[LightningFlash]

49. Conyers said something on the radio that those fliers were planted. n/t

[LightningFlash]

37. What the hell...

Conyers condemned the anti-israeli comments also!??!?

Either way everyone is taking this way too far, PNAC is full of israel extremists--That in no way shows full blind anti-semitism. The israelis in it do not represent the israel population.

Just like fundamentalists christians do not represent us in America.

[Boo Boo]

40. Yup. Conyers too.

But the news stories I've read don't say what was actually in the "literature." Both Conyers and Dean used exactly the same language to condem those that say Israel had something to do with 9/11. If that's the case, if somebody was passing out flyers that said that, then hammer away---Dems obviously have to distance themselves from that.

The thing that irks me is seeing "anti-semitic" and the PNAC-type stuff in the same breath. Reading the works of Perle and Wolfowitz, such as the "Clean Break" document they presented to Netanyahu, it's very obvious that their plan is to forge an Israeli/US alliance to dominate the region. That is the strategy.

Dems might want to distance themselves from that uncomfortable reality at this point, but don't (intentionally, or otherwise) confuse charges of "anti-semite" with that, because sooner or later we arent' going to be able to ignore the elephant in the room anymore and we really don't need the racist baggage. We should not be providing cover for those bastards.

Nonetheless, I wish McGovern and whomever else had not bothered with the PNAC stuff. It isn't required to prove Bush lied, and it provides an avenue of attack for charges of "conspiracy nuts," etc.

[LightningFlash]

50. Rove again: Distract, Distract, Distract. PNAC isn't the subject.

The subject and issue at hand is Bush and his thugs lied. Whether PNAC along with israeili extremists are involved isn't the issue--It's the lies about the whole war. Zero in on that, kill the distractions.

[LuPeRcALiO]

52. With full cooperation from the Washington Post

which first ran the phony charges (in Milbank's article), and now Dean's comments, which appear to condemn the entire proceeding, not just the 9/11 leaflets -- which, according to Milbank, were handed out at the DNC headquarters, not at the hearing.

Maybe they're jealous that Conyers is making them look like the fat slugs they are?

:shrug:

[Q]

39. I'm not sure who is behind this...

...but it's an effort to DISTRACT from the real purpose of Conyer's meeting/hearing.

The Democrats fall for this shit every time.

The subject is no longer that BUSH LIED THIS NATION INTO WAR.

Now it's about completely unrelated rumor and parsing of words.

I don't understand what Dean is up to. But he has sure become a disappointment.

[DemBones DemBones]

45. Yep, FOCUS on the ISSUE and ignore the sideshow.

If the media go off on a tangent about this, we need to be on their case to get back to the topic, back to the DSM, back to the fact that * lied to get his way and 1700 American lives have been lost (more Iraqi lives, I know, but many Americans don't care about them because they believe the * and Cheney BS about Iraqis being behind 9/11.)

[meppie-meppie not]

106. my thoughts exactly!

[mandyky]

41. Dean did not slam McGovern

Anyone know what this literature he was talking about is?

The actual title was "Dean Condemns 'Anti-Semitic Literature'".

[NYCGirl]

61. It was reported some flyers which strongly suggested that Israel had

a role in 9/11 were being passed out in the overflow viewing room, which was in the DNC offices.

[kentuck]

43. Enough already.

Who asked?

[Frederik]

44. Oh pleeease

Why the fuck did he have to do that? "vile, anti-semitic rhetoric"? Did he get a threatening call from the B'nai Brith or something? AAAARGH!!!

[Frederik]

48. Ok, he was condemning literature being distributed

That's something else then. I thought he was condemning McGovern. This smells like Rove to me, handing out anti-semitic pamphlets at Conyer's DMS hearing.

[Frederik]

54. Fucking Washington Post

writes than Dean condemned McGovern's statement, when he apparently didn't! How fucking transparent can they get? First Milbank's hit piece and now this? Unbelieveable.

[bklyncowgirl]

57. Divide and conquer--works every time--this string is an example

We're looking at it in microcosm here.

Conyers holds a hearing in which one witness (McGovern) says one paragraphy in a long statement which indicates that one reason that Bush may have wanted to have started the war is because it's in the interests of the Likud government.

The DNC, presumably with Dean's approval, offers the overflow crowd from the rally space to watch the hearing.

Someone from the overflow crowd passes out literature blaming Israel for 9/11 and stating that the war was started to further the interests of Israel.

Dana Milbank from the Washington Posts writes a hit piece on the hearings mentioning both McGoven's comment and the anti-semitic literature.

Conyers writes a scathing reply to Milbank in which he appears to distance himself from McGovern's remarks and slams the anti-semitic pamphlets.

Howard Dean writes an equeally scathing statement slamming the anti-semitic pamphlets and declaring that the Democratic party opposes anti-semitism.

Some DUers eager to attack Dean, who has at best been quietly supportive of the effort to expose the Downing Street Memos, accuse Dean of attacking McGovern, anti-war activists and Conyers himself. Had they bothered to read his actual statement, they would have realized that that was not the case.

This is nuts people. Conyers and Dean are slamming this anti-semitic literature because they know damn well that for this to get traction, mainstream Democrats are going to have to come on board. Guess what--no one is going any where near anything that smells of tin-foil hat, Jews rule the world, conspiracy bullshit.

If Karl Rove didn't hire the people who planted that literature, he damn well should have. Either way he's laughing his ass off.

[janx]

60. That's about the size of it.

As I said more than once last night, I wish we could find the person or people who handed out the literature.

[Cha]

102. It certainly works on this

board..some just can't wait to jump on Dean if they even think they smell blood in the water.

I've read this thread and the one in LBN on this..and it's all about distraction and even more than the usual suspects are falling hard.

Congratulations.

Dean is working HARD for our Party and I can see why he's pissed that the foundation he is building is being fucked with by blaming Jews for 9/11 when we all know it was bush who sat on his ass in crawford the month of August and didn't respond to the terrorist warnings from the Clinton Adminstration, and brushed off the August 6th memo!

As George Galloway said on Randi Rhodes.."Maximize Our Strenghts And Leave Our Differences At The Door"..if we're going to stand a chance in bringing down this Scourge on the Planet.

[ElectroPrincess]

56. Perhaps Dean is in on the warmongering "stay the course" SCAM?

Otherwise why would the power brokers of the DLC step aside and allow him to be Chair?

I think MANY of our Democratic Representatives are Warmongers. Gephart came aboard making statements recently.

I wonder if we could do some research to see where these spineless, but warmongering Dems have their WEALTH invested?

No longer is this a Republicans vs. Democrats fight to bring our troops home, it's the War Profiteers VS. The American People; The Investor Class VS. The Common Working American who lives from paycheck to paycheck.

Howard Dean is giving SOME Republicans hell, but his support of this illegal war and occupation troubles me greatly.

Make no mistake fellow DUers, the blackmail and deal making are going on within BOTH sides of the political aisle.

This is too complex for freepers but I believe you can see this?

[hemp_not_war]

59. yes I see it

ugly, I hope Dean is on our side. I thought he was. Sharon's government helped manufacture false WMD evidence for Bush and I have heard this is on record in their public government docs. Other then this we shouldn't mention Israel. Once the whole scandal plays out later, the issue of Israels influence over America can be debated but not yet. This anti-semitic accusation that sticks to people like the charge of child molestation, maybe karma coming back to hit the left because it has been used falsly on people on the right too in my opinion.

Why do we let the media get away with it? For instance Krauthammer's arguments on Arabs that "those people are incapable of understanding(diplomacy) anything but force" helped win support for the War on Iraq. Arabs are semitic, is this not anti-semitism? It is PC to be anti-semitic if it's against Arabs. When forces in Europe such as France opposed the war Krauthammer attacked them saying it was due to their "millennium-old urge of pent up anti-Semitism", putting forth arguments that indicate this man truly fears whites slaughtering Jews again. I personally think we are way beyond that, and no American I know would even let that happen. Support for Israel means preserving it as a racially pure state, to let people with Jewish blood immigrate, and keep the Palistinians in camps. I was once for this before realizing how racist it is and the U.S. meddling done by the Zionists.

[CTLawGuy]

65. how was your long nap through the 2004 primaries?

Dean is not and was not ever for the war in Iraq.

He is also against an immediate pullout, which both he and I feel would be irresponsible for the security of the region and the Iraqi people.

You can feel however you want about when to pull out of Iraq, but please don't claim Dean was for the war. That's just false.

[confludemocrat]

71. And what would the 2004 primaries have taught us?

Yes, this is Deans position from the 2004 campaign--antiwar before but prowar now. Ultimately his being antiwar before leads me to ask "so what's the difference" that he was antiwar before the war he and Bush have essentially arrived in the same place, who the fuck cares one got ther by an artificial "high road"?

I echo Electroprincess. Deans position is troubling as is the position of most leading Demos, left to nibble on the unsatisfying unnourishing gruel "we could run this illegal, corrupt, attrocious disaster better".

My heart aches at this. All the killing and corruption. We need new leadership untainted by the "positioning" they did for 2004. All that ilk are dead meat in my book.

[CTLawGuy]

83. here's the difference

Dean was against invading in the first place.

but now he is against leaving Iraq to fall into chaos now that we are there. He isn't for murdering civilians, or helping war profiteers or torture, but he is also for helping Iraq to become somewhat stable.

How are those positions contradictory?

I think if Dean were elected president, he would have an exit plan as soon as possible. But he would not have pulled the troops out on Jan 21st.

[confludemocrat]

85. So Iraq won't fall into chaos? So what do you call it now?

I appreciate Dean in so many ways, But not emphasizing how this whole thing must bend toward justice and not pushing for withdrawal openly and honestly is a problem. No shift from any major Demos on the reality that we must leave immediately and begin to set up means to finance reconstruction by any government or governments that eventually rules that land. Events are overtaking the Democrats on this, as the consensus grows that our illegal presence means nothing short of withdrawal and our destruction and scores of thousands of Iraqis based on lies and fabrications is a wrong that nothing short of ending the crime can suffice.

How has any other position short of this done other than bring the Democrats to the brink of oblivion?

[CTLawGuy]

86. its not open civil war right, bc our troops are somewhat keeping order

not saying it isn't a bad situation, but it would be 20 times worse if there is no dominant force keeping control of the country.

the government doesn't really have its own army to defend itself. Enterprising factions and maybe foreign forces might make a move against the government if that government had no army to defend itself and keep order.

This situation is one of the BIG reasons Dean opposed the invasion.

[confludemocrat]

98. Look at CNN today showing blown up neighborhoods in W. Iraq

The fiction continues that we are "making progress". Its is an illegal and unjust war. I hope Dean comes around and admits we need to get out.

[ElectroPrincess]

93. How many more thousands must we lose before we pull-out?

[Adelante]

63. Mediawhores at their dirty work again

Connecting McGovern, and the Dems by association, in the public mind, to controversial literature being passed out by activists. Dean and Conyers left with no choice but to dissassociate. More trickery. More bullshit. The media is the villain here.

[bklyncowgirl]

64. The media and whoever planted those pamphlets. nt

[Adelante]

66. If they were planted

Which I am perfectly ready to believe if that's proven some way. Unfortunately, we have our own idiots who don't care two shits for what happens to the Democratic Party. Either/or. We'll have to see.

[bklyncowgirl]

69. Damn straight and we're seeing alot of them on this thread.

Not to mention the thread in LBN.

Some of these people would be just as happy to see the Republicans in power as long as they can continue to spin their little tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

Now I can do tinfoil with the best of them but if it's hurting the larger cause it's time to recycle the tinfoil.

[KoKo]

90. I've got a post up asking who saw the actual flyer and the content....

I'm hoping someone who was there will post. Without knowing the content how do we know if the apologies were necessary.

[bpilgrim]

75. i didn't hear ANY anti-semitic remarks... anyone got a link to the actual

hand-outs in question? and the identity of the group handing them out?

tia :toast:

peace

[ClassWarrior]

67. Hmmm... another poster I've never seen before spreading manure...

...about our own people. Interesting.

NGU.

[maxrandb]

68. Allowing the Neo-cons to Define the Debate Again!!!!!! n/t

[janx]

72. People can't resist dishonest or sloppy media if the contents

fit their own narrow agendas. The media know this and use it all the time.

Edit: So does the rabid right.

[Eloriel]

73. Dean is wrong.

He isn't usually, but he is this time. We'll have to educate him on this issue.

[aquart]

77. Israel's domination of the US government? THAT issue?

[bpilgrim]

79. so who said that?

tia :toast:

peace

[bpilgrim]

78. *faint*

jk ;->


i didn't hear anything anti-semitic at the DSM hearing... does anyone know specifically what txt or remarks set him (or the M$MW) off?

peace

[AntiCoup2K4]

80. Has a copy of the allegedly "anti-semetic" literature surfaced?

I'd like to see what it actually says, before commenting further on what Dean said.

However, I WILL say the following, speaking entirely for myself...

PNAC is VERY connected to the Likud party of Israel. The "prequel" to the PNAC agenda was a document called "A Clean Break:
A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" and it was written in collaboration with the Netanyahu Likud government. Among their objectives was the removal of Saddam Hussein from Iraq. Syria is also specifically mentioned. Sound familiar?

That document can be read here: http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm

And of course, the PNAC manifesto itself, "Rebuilding America's Defenses" (if you haven't read it already) can be found here: http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

As for Mossad involvement in 9-11-01, that certainly has not been proven. But it's a hell of a lot more likely than a kidney patient in a cave commanding 19 morons with box cutters, when you think about it.

Better yet, I'll just flat out say it: LIKUD AND MOSSAD ARE FUCKING PIECES OF SHIT, WHO ARE CAPAPBLE OF JUST ABOUT ANY EVIL ON THIS PLANET.

So are the Bush Criminal Empire.

Whomever wants to call me an "anti semite" for saying so can kindly go fuck themselves, because I make no condemnation of Jews as a people, and am not opposed to the State of Israel's existence, only to their current fascist government. Just like I'm opposed to the current fascist government in this country.

Any freepers want to fuck with me, bring it on....

[bpilgrim]

87. i 2nd that notion

kick

peace

[Liberal Dose]

81. I don't believe there were pamphlets left at all.

If so, what was the exact content and why was that not reported? Plus, McGovern said, "Oil. Israel. Logistical bases. Oil, which is what we need. Israel, seen as an ally of the US in the Middle East. Logistical bases, which is part of the neo-conservative strategic vision in the region." ALL TRUE. Israel and the US are NOT official allies, yet we give them billions in aid every year. Why is it taboo to say anything bad about Israel? Speaking out against the policies of Israel does not equal racism. They've attacked us before, so who's to say it would never happen again?

http://www.ussliberty.org/

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

[bklyncowgirl]

89. Has anyone but Dana Milbank actually seen these pamphlets?

Conyers was responding to the Milbank article when he condemned their content. Dean was also responding to the article. Both were acting appropriately to ward off attacks of ant-semitism that were sure to come from the right wing noise machine.

I'd like to know if Conyers or Dean actually have copies of these pamphlets. I'd like to know if Dana Milbank has copies of these pamphlets or had he just heard about them from some--oh I don't know--unnamed source.

Maybe someone high up in the Bush administration perhaps?

[Behind the Aegis]

92. very good question

Who has seen the pamphlets? But, does it even matter now? The damage is done...the right will start to attack that Dems and liberals are all anti-Semites; and the left will protest in the ranks about what is and isn't anti-Semitic, branding those who did find the comment anti-Semitic, right-wing plants. The damage is done. Now, how do we stop the bleeding?

[ProudDad]

115. He probably printed them himself

on karl rove's orders.

[politicasista]

91. It's a Rovian trap to divide us again.

[ecstatic]

94. Was just about to slam Dean, then I read the statement

Which, as many people have already pointed out, did not mention McGovern's name at all. My understanding after reading the quote is that there was a separate set of literature being passed out at the meeting that truly was antisemitic---and that was what Dean was commenting on. However, spinmeisters in the media decided to link Dean's statements to McGovern because McGovern spoke about Israel briefly.

[bklyncowgirl]

97. Absolutely--this is about the media.

Milbank wrote a vicious hit piece on the hearings.

Dean and Conyers were acting to prevent the hearings and the Democratic Party as a whole from being tarred with an anti-semitic brush.

AP wrote an article which muddled what Dean actually said and added fuel to the fire.

This is the corporate media at work.

[Bravo411]

99. Anti-Semitic?

Then I guess Dean could also say that such statements are also anti-American. Anti-Semitic would have been if he said something like -those damn Jew bastards... Which he didn't. To claim anti-semitism just because Israel was mentioned is pure crap. It's something you'd expect from the neo-cons.

I was really liking Dean, up until now.

[Bravo411]

100. Just read...

-----------------------------
94. Was just about to slam Dean, then I read the statement
Which, as many people have already pointed out, did not mention McGovern's name at all. My understanding after reading the quote is that there was a separate set of literature being passed out at the meeting that truly was antisemitic---and that was what Dean was commenting on. However, spinmeisters in the media decided to link Dean's statements to McGovern because McGovern spoke about Israel briefly.
-----------------------------
I take back my comment. Damn that Rove and his media dogs - he's good at what he does, which is bullshit decieve people.

[Bravo411]

101. Follow up...

Deans back on the A list.

I read his statement on his website and what it was refering to.
The AP article takes things out of context in order to portray an untrue image of what really happened.

So did the person who started this thread.

[Cha]

104. So glad to see that..

at least you went back and read and retracted..how many haven't?

Edit~Welcome to DU, Bravo!

[Erika]

121. Your post makes no sense

What are you talking about?

[brindis_desala]

105. okay let me get this straight: we can bash France who basically

financed this country's war of independence (and in the meantime bankrupted their economy) but if anyone so much as suggests that America's interests are not conjoined to the wishes of Israel he is anti-semitic? It's enough to make one believe that AIPAC and Sharon have more clout both with the press and in Washington than the Democrats in Congress.

[KnowerOfLogic]

109. I do think that *some* dems should stop their reflexive Israel bashing. nt

[Don1]

112. A Time to Fight Back?

WaPo is trying to get Dems to fight by taking both Dean and McGovern out of context.

Perhaps it is time to respond to this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1866954

[Tigress DEM]

116. Actually, that participant's statement really was harmful.

We have to clean our own house first and this participant was expanding beyond that.

This rally is a preliminary step towards impeachment. We have to get that taken care of first. If Israel's involvement in all this is shady, we should deal with that after we've taken BushCo to task, otherwise it becomes all about Anti-Sematic rhetoric and provides yet another diverson for the press to jump on.

[orleans]

118. who said anything about israel???

i thought it was the bushie administration that wanted to dominate the middle east; i thought it was the bushie administration that had something to do with 9/11.

so...that would make me.....anti-bush? yes!

(really--i hadn't heard anything about israel--who said they thought israel is involved? did i not get the memo--so to speak)

[Wizard777]

119. Dean is right.

This has nothing to do with Israel. It's all about Bush/Cheney and they wouldn't have it any other way. Until it comes time to lay blame. Then it's everyone but them. This is Saudi and Bush Co. OPEC was allowed to reenter Iraq before the UN. Of Course the Arabs want to blame it on the Jews. That's just a Bonus to them. I think it's Bogus. The CIA laying Disinformation to cover Bush's ass and maybe even their own.

[Tinoire]

135. Dean is dead wrong. He undermined the main witness

1. You know, if there had been an "anti-Semitic" flyer, the AIPAC would have had it plastered all over the papers and up and down the Internet. I'm beginning to wonder if there was any flyer at all!

2. Dean just undermined McGovern.

"As for any inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could 'dominate' the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America, let me say unequivocally that such statements are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric," Dean said.

The session took an awkward turn when witness Ray McGovern, a former intelligence analyst, declared that the United States went to war in Iraq for oil, Israel and military bases craved by administration "neocons" so "the United States and Israel could dominate that part of the world." He said that Israel should not be considered an ally and that Bush was doing the bidding of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

"Israel is not allowed to be brought up in polite conversation," McGovern said. "The last time I did this, the previous director of Central Intelligence called me anti-Semitic."

Rep. James P. Moran Jr. (D-Va.), who prompted the question by wondering whether the true war motive was Iraq's threat to Israel, thanked McGovern for his "candid answer."


washingtonpost.com
Democrats Play House To Rally Against the War
By Dana Milbank

Friday, June 17, 2005; A06

And that's what Dean just did to McGovern again, inferred he was an anti-Semite repeating vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric. Dominate is the precise word McGovern used; his exact statement is that the that the "United States and Israel" seek to "dominate that part of the world" and that's what Dean attacked, in addition to this shocking invisible literature that no one can produce.

"As for any inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could 'dominate' the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America, let me say unequivocally that such statements are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric," Dean said.

Dean's not talking about a flyer here, he's attacking McGovern and paying Democratic Party's usual mind-blowing deference to AIPAC.


Howard, I am very disappointed. You need to read up on the PNAC, paying particular attention to the OSP before you get all huffy for the AIPAC and undermine Conyer's witness.

[Catrina]

137. Hi Tinoire

It seems that someone is trying to split this party right now. Last week we were defending Dean, and this week it's Dean undermining Conyers!

I saw references on Conyers' blog to supposed anti-semetic literature that was handed out at the hearing. That was posted on the blog by a rightwing troll, which was obvious.

I think they are spreading lies. So far, I have not heard anyone who was there say there was any such literature.

As far as being called anti-semetic for criticizing the Sharon government, then call me anti-semetic. We should not fall for this ploy.

No country in the world gets a pass when they do wrong, simply because critics have to fear being falsely accused of being anti-whatever! To single out Israel for this kind of special treatment IS anti-semetic, imo.

[Carolab]

139. Quit dragging this out. It's another DIVERSION. n/t

[Pepperbelly]

140. I would still like to see a copy of the material ...

that was alleged to be anti-Semitic. If it doesn't even exist at all, I wonder why Dr. Dean condemned it.

[Moderator]

141. Locking, the WaPo piece was debunked here:

Don't take the bait that seeks to divide us on this issue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1864394&mesg_id=1864650