Talk me out of transferring my support of Gephardt to Kucinich

[anti-NAFTA]

I was devastated on Tuesday when I learned that Gephardt had dropped out. The only "major" candidates left were freetraders who, if it hadn't been for Gephardt, would never even have given us the phony lip service to displeased workers. But I don't care that Kucinich isn't going to win the nomination (no, he doesn't have AOL Time Warner $$$ and $$$ from other huge corporations and firms), I will vote out of pure spite for our political system in which the two parties serve the interests of rival corporations and firms. When Kucinich comes down to Florida, he'll have my vote.

[burrowowl]

1. I won't

stick with Dennis!

[morgan2]

2. Its a primary, vote who you think is the best candidate.

No reason to feel guilty voting for Kucinich. Who cares if he wont win, the more people who vote for him the more clout he will get. Everyone who votes for him is doing something positive.

[BlueStateGirl]

3. I am for Clark, but Iwon't try to talk you out of it.

Dennis has a lot of good things to say.

[Bucky]

15. This is weird...

two different Clarkies advise a Geppy to stick with Kucinich. Why are we like this? What is it about Clark supporters that makes so many of them, I dunno, pathologically even-handed?

[blm]

4. I say support Kucinich.

He deserves every vote he gets and then some.

[snoochie]

5. Why would I do that?

It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. :)

[Paulie]

6. Based on your board name, Kucinich is your only choice

It's sad there isn't anyone else worthy like Dennis, isn't it?

[KaraokeKarlton]

7. Being totally against NAFTA isn't good for workers either

You're absolutely right that NAFTA is having bad results for workers by sending jobs out of the country. No one would argue that point with you. At the same time, there are just as many workers who rely on the exporting of their products to keep their job. It's a catch 22. I think Dean is exactly right in what he says about NAFTA. The real problem with NAFTA is that it only internationalized the rights of corporations and didn't do the same thing for workers and the environment. Dean wants to change that so that it's not so beneficial for companies to send jobs south. He thinks the unions should be able to go wherever the corporations do internationally. Did you know that when Dean was governor of Vermont that he stood up to the states biggest hospital and supported the nurses and helped them form a union? He won a Wellstone Award for that.

[anti-NAFTA]

17. I respectfully disagree.

NAFTA leaves little room for negotiations. NAFTA should be done away with and trade policy should be conducted bilaterally with the interests of the US in mind. Agricultural products from Canada and Mexico's poor worker's rights and lower costs are threatening America's core.

Dean may say that he wants to make it beneficial for companies not to send jobs south, but what exactly does he propose? What about Canada? Mexico isn't the only problem, you know. What about Europe which taxes the shit out of our products, but when the US tries to raise its tariffs against Europe (mind you it doesn't ever come close to matching), we get threatened with a trade war. I'm not sure I can even trust Dean, who praised NAFTA back in the day. I still have sick memories of Gore debating Perot about this and killing any debate about it between the two major parties.

One of the things I hate about Chimp is that he talks a lot of trash about how he doesn't give a hell about the international community and he's patriotic and blablabla, but when it comes to trade policy he's all for raping his own country. Patriotic, my ass.

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. I lived under Dean's leadership for over a decade here in Vermont

And I will tell you this about him...I have NEVER heard him make a promise he didn't keep. The man delivers and is as trustworthy as they come. If he tells you he will address the problems to stop the hemmorhaging of US jobs, he will move heaven and earth to do it. Rather than me tell you second hand what his positions are....I think you should go to his web site, click on the Issues section and read what he has to day directly. www.deanforamerica.com

He doesn't talk only about NAFTA, but the WTO as well, and all international trade. He says he will put international workers rights standards, human rights standards, environmenatl standards and fair pay standards internationally, not just in Mexico...but everywhere...including the right to organize and form unions.

I can understand why you wanted to stick with Gephardt because he went to bat for workers pretty consistently. I don't even think Kucinich could just "cancel NAFTA and the WTO" without the lawmakers anyhow. Besides that, he doesn't stand a chance of winning. The others do have different positions and records of accomplishing what they set out to. Dean has a great record delivering what he says he will. He might not offer exactly what you want, but I would guess that he offers better than the others, and he DOES stand a chance. You should at least check out his positions and then weigh your options. If you could vote for someone who you at least think will improve things over voting for someone who won't win, you might want to consider it. However, you should vote your own conscience and gut. I'm just saying you should take the time to see where the others stand on the issue first.

[anti-NAFTA]

30. All I've found is

this:

"Governor Dean believes that international trade is essential to the continued growth and health of the American economy and to the creation and strengthening of the middle class throughout the developing world. Promoting middle class societies is not only the right thing to do; it's also in our own self-interest. Our efforts will create consumers for our goods and improve our national security because nations with middle classes are generally more stable, more democratic, and less likely to foster terrorism. So the question is not whether one is for or against trade: The question is under what rules should trade be conducted, for whose benefit should the rules be drawn, and how should they be enforced. "

[KaraokeKarlton]

32. I know he has more than that on his site somewhere

Let me go dig up some links for you. I'll post them on this thread once I locate them.

[anti-NAFTA]

33. Alright. Thanks. n/t

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. Links for anti-NAFTA

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_labor

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_economy_trade

On this second link, there are sub-categories on the right hand side that you probably missed when you found the statement you pasted. Click on those as well.

[Bucky]

8. I'm not a fan of strategic voting, but I think you should stick w/Dennis

Free trade is gonna carry the day, make no mistake about it. The only thing we're really gonna end up fighting on is the terms under which we come to free trade agreements. I'm pro-free trade myself, but I want unions to have a strong presense at the negotiating table when the country re-hammers out our trade policy.

For the Democrats, that means we need Dennis Kucinich riding our asses on this issue. Being from North Carolina, Edwards might be your second go-to guy here, I think. I also believe my candidate, Clark, would be strong on any issue that touches on jobs issues, which is the real story behind the free trade and NAFTA debates.

[lcordero]

9. that makes the two of us then

[Ficus]

48. awesome sig line

Russ Feingold rox!

[Silverhair]

10. Why?

Like the poster above says, "It's a primary." A Democrat is going to win anyway.

[youngred]

11. Why would I do that?

Dennis is a great candidate.

[HereSince1628]

12. Follow Dennis' advice straight off--give it to Edwards

Why do a half measure?

[snoochie]

18. That only applied in the IA caucus negotiations. n/t

[youngred]

23. What bullshit

Kerry and Gep had the same kind of deal.

Dean literally bought off Carol Mosley Braun. WHich I find to be much worse than Kucinich making a smart political deal with someone with similar beliefs

[Feanorcurufinwe]

13. Kerry supporter says: give to Kucinich

He is worthy.

[XanaDUer]

35. "Another Kerry supporter says: give to Kucinich"

He is more than worthy.

[MuseRider]

14. Talk you out of it?

No way. Welcome to the campaign. He is the best and for me the only. I will vote for the nominee but DK is the one I believe in.

[Iverson]

16. No.

Kucinich is respectable.

[pop goes the weasel]

19. Go with DK

How else will we make sure that who ever wins the nomination understands that voters are aware of the current trade agreements and are unhappy with them? A vote for Kucinich is a wake-up call for American politics.

[Democrats unite]

20. You want to vote for Gephardt be my guest.

eom

[Mass_Liberal]

22. go with kucinich

he's a good guy, I sometimes wish I had the guts to vote for him.

[no name no slogan]

38. You sound like me in 1988

I organized a couple of precincts for our caucuses in 1988 for Dukakis-- although I agreed more with Jackson and Simon on the issues.

Why? Because I wanted to support somebody who was "electable"-- whatever that means. Paul Wellstone was not electable, either, and he still won two elections to the US Senate.

The primaries are the only time that we, as Democratic voters, can send a message to our party leadership about what issues are truly important to us. It's really the only time that they bother listening to us, IMHO.

Howard Dean is a great candidate, and if you truly support his positions, then you should vote for him in the primary. But, if DK is more in line with your opinions and beliefs, you've got nothing to lose by voting for him.

He may not win, but it's still important for us, as progressives and Democrats, to send a message to our party.

:D

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Paradoxically

if you really believe that DK "can't win," then there's no harm in voting for him, since you believe that no one else will be.

But win or lose, supporting him is a way of sticking it to the people and corporations that are ruining this country.

[cryofan]

25. Kucinich is tainting progressive issues with his kooky media image

Whether deserved or not, he has a image in the media as being kooky, eccentric, new age-y, etc. He has a great platform, but his image is tainting these progressive issues, and thus harming the progressive image. I used to be a DK supporter, but then I realized the harm he was probably doing....

You should consider Clark or Edwards or Kerry, IMO.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Frankly, I've never heard anyone say

"Because I don't like Kucinich's image, I'm going to start supporting NAFTA, urge Bush to nuke the Middle East, and encourage insurance companies to raise their rates."

[anti-NAFTA]

28. I kind of agree.

His image is pretty unappealing (his looks, his endorsement from numerous celebrities). But I don't vote on image.

[youngred]

29. Stock answer

brought out again. You still have yet to show proof of this "kooky" or "new age" stuff

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

37. Dennis doesn't even HAVE an image in the media

Nobody knows who he is. He never gets coverage. The corporate media basically ignore him. He'd be lucky to have an image at all.

[lcordero]

39. He's trailblazing, then the more traditional people suggest it

I still am a Kucinich supporter. Kucinich is pulling the Party back to it's core values.

[diamondsoul]

45. So will you drop you bitter comment into

every pro-Kucinich thread now? Just curious.

So far you've attacked volunteers, his staff and now him. Some supporter, former or otherwise.

[cryofan]

47. My support is more for Progressive Issues, not candidates, per se

I support candidates who are successful at propagating progressive memes. For example, Edwards and Clark have some progressive ideas about taxation. So those 2 are my top candidates. I wish they were more progressive. However, these 2 are still good for at least one progressive issues, because they project an acceptable mainstream image through the media.

DK, although his issues are the very image of progressivity, does not project a mainstream image through the media. THerefore, DK is an ANTI-progressive meme machine. He is turning people AGAINST progressive issues. Therefore, I no longer support him.

[redqueen]

52. Clinton had a great image

and 'propogated progressive memes' very well.

Didn't do much about them as far as useful legislation, but he talked a great game.

That what you want?

:eyes:

[Desertrose]

53. "they project an acceptable mainstream image through the media"?

It is true that DK supporters seem to be able to get past the "image thing" and see the substance, perhaps thats why you are a former supporter...

How you come up with ANTI progressive meme machine is a bit of a stretch just because DK does not conform to YOUR standards....

We get you no longer support him but is it necessary to inject your ideas in every DK thread?

Peace
DR

[leyton]

26. What's with all the "convince me of this" threads?

There seem to be a lot of these... "Convince me not to stick with Edwards." "Convince me to support Kerry." "Convince me..."

[LWolf]

31. No...vote for Dennis.

You can count on him to support workers' rights. You can count on him to oppose the corporate control of America. He's the right choice. If everyone who sees that votes for him, he'll win. If he doesn't, we know that his refusal to quit, his persistence, his constistency, and his enthusiastic support around the country will help shape the policies of the next democratic president.

For the first time in my life I'll be voting FOR someone; for someone who works for what I believe in. Join us!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

36. Gephardt was always my number one or two

I like Kucinich for other reasons, but I'd had have no problem voting for Gep in the primary. It's very upsetting that he dropped out. Other than Dennis Kucinich, every one else has drank the "free trade" kool aid. Edwards is pretty good on this issue - he ran for Senate on an anti-NAFTA platform, but (unfortunately) doesn't rock the boat too much about it.

Dennis Kucinich is the undisputed leader on this issue.

[arewethereyet]

40. It would not appear that your convictions allow you a choice

n/t

[ThirdWheelLegend]

41. If you are voting based on being anti-NAFTA, Kucinich is it..

Go Kucinich!

TWL

[goodhue]

42. Read these . . .

http://www.kucinich.us/supporter_resources/isuespdfs/WorkersRights.pdf

http://www.kucinich.us/supporter_resources/isuespdfs/TradeManu.pdf

http://www.kucinich.us/supporter_resources/isuespdfs/MinimumWage.pdf

http://www.kucinich.us/supporter_resources/isuespdfs/SocialSec.pdf

http://www.kucinich.us/supporter_resources/isuespdfs/JobInfra.pdf

http://www.kucinich.us/supporter_resources/isuespdfs/Economy.pdf

And then vote for the candidate who is from the house of labor!

[corporatewhore]

43. If you aint talked out it will be Another victory for common sense

You vote for the cannidate who you agree with on important issues like "free"trade.I recently found out that he marched in seatlle against the wto and also is the only cannidate who is a member of a union any way
good job for supporting a cannidate for what you believe and not for who ted koppel tells you to :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[DemBones DemBones]

44. You should definitely vote for Dennis Kucinich,

because he's the pro-labor anti-NAFTA man in the race now and the more delegates he wins, the more influence he'll have in Boston on the party's platform and choice of nominee. He has stated that after the primary season plays out, he'll actually be the strongest candidate left in the race and have enough delegates to win the nomination. How? I don't know, but I'm ready to trust in Elfin Magic! As he's also said, "I'm electable if you vote for me."

THE DARK HORSE COMETH. . . DENNIS J. KUCINICH 2004

I was saddened to see Dick Gephardt quit after Iowa. A lot of people looked only at his IWR vote and not his record, which is hardly fair unless they also support DK, the only candidate who opposed the war long before it started and continues to oppose it now that it's an occupation/ guerilla war.

Gephardt was also ridiculed for his ethnic type, with his very pale eyebrows and eyelashes being commented on, just as Kucinich is said to have "bad hair," look like an elf, etc. Now Bill Maher has everyone saying Kerry looks like a talking tree.

Good thing Lincoln or FDR is not trying to get elected today, or MLK, either.

:shrug: :eyes: :shrug:


But here's Kucinich speaking truth (with emphasis added by me):

"The national unemployment rate in December of 2003 was 5.7 percent, up from 4.1 percent in January 2001. We have lost nearly 3 million private sector jobs. In the third quarter of 2003, America's gross domestic product surged at a rate of 8.2 percent, and corporate profits grew at an annual rate above 40 percent. But during this same period, wages and salaries grew by less than 1 percent. When someone calls that a recovery, they're telling you more about themselves than about the economy.

"To make matters worse, the Bush Administration has proposed ending eligibility for overtime pay, a critical source of income for 8 million workers, and the Department of Labor has issued advice to companies in its explanation of the proposal on strategies to avoid paying overtime. Among these strategies were cutting workers' base pay to subtract extra overtime pay costs and cutting workers' hours to strictly enforce a 40 hour work week. Under this proposal, 450,497 New England workers stand to lose access to overtime pay. In 2002, the number of Americans living in poverty increased by over 12 percent to 34.6 million.

"When NAFTA was signed in 1994, it was hailed by the national media and by CEOs for ensuring American 'global competitiveness.' Since then, America's trade deficit has exploded to $418 billion, and NAFTA has cost America 525,000 jobs, most of them in manufacturing. Tax cuts for millionaires have failed repeatedly to create jobs. Making permanent the tax cuts that were temporary, the ones that were supposed to give the economy a quick boost, would cost us another $1 trillion, but it won't create jobs. The Bush Administration's idea that the 'No Child Left Behind Act' or the new energy bill or limiting medical liability will somehow create jobs makes clear that jobs for this Administration are an afterthought.

"We must repeal NAFTA and the WTO and stop chasing jobs out of the country. I will make this my first act in office, and I will replace these with fair bilateral trade agreements that protect jobs. I will also create a WPA-style jobs program to provide 2 million Americans with work restoring our infrastructure."

(January 23, 2004)

From the Kucinich website http://www.kucinich.us

Page link is http://www.kucinich.us/statements.htm#NHNAFTA

[iowapeacechief]

46. Logical choice

Dennis is articulate and uncompromising on your issue, and there's no need to count him out yet.

He might have enjoyed lots more union (and other "fair trade") supporters in Iowa had not Gephardt been the local favorite who had earned their support and whose stakes were do-or-die.

[LuminousX]

49. That is a good transition, why would you want to be talked out of it?

[Ficus]

50. Go for Dennis!

he needs all the help he can get! I tried to caucus for him, but didn't have the chance (wasn't viable.) If you CAN vote for him, take the opportunity!~ You don't always get a chance to vote as progressive as that!

[Desertrose]

51. but honey, I don't *want* to talk you out of it....

:evilgrin:

Kucinich is the best choice we can make and I for one want to congratulate you for making a great choice....

:hi: and welcome to DU anti-NAFTA!

Dennis rocks...

Peace
DR