WES CLARK -- Stop Killing People in the name of GOD! Hear that RW?

[FrenchieCat]

I just finished watching a video of Wes Clark on Fox from an appearance that he made this morning (7/8/05).

What I found fascinating, was the two pronged religious message that Wes laid out to be heard by the Religious Wrong (as he terms them) aka, Fox viewers--those who are so Gun-ho for war and retribution and supports this administration.

He discusses the War on Terror and the ideology behind it, and what can be done about it (yes....actually offers concrete suggestions!)

Although Fox viewer might think they are only hearing one side of the message intended, I think that it is nearly impossible for those watching to escape the fact that they are supporting the exact tactics of ideology that they claim to abhor coming from the terrorists.

The fact that a Dem is on Fox talking about religion, God and such is a new development, and I think that it may reap some fruits. As a religious individual myself, I think that his tact bears watching. I think that the discrepancy/hypocracy between those so-called "pro-lifers" supporting Warmongering Bush is highlighted very well.

Please check out the video, and tell me what you think about his approach, the message, etc....

http://www.yellowdogdem.com/070805.WMV

Thanks.

[stellanoir]

1. he consistantly

makes more sense than most given air time. His knowledge of history and foreign relations is astounding. I don't begrudge him being on the god awful Faux station. At least he makes sense and tells the truth unlike most of the others.

[Totally Committed]

2. I just watched it, too...

I thought that his talk about about the religious leaders taking the lead in making sure young people don't get whipped up with hate was a direct reference to the Saudi Arabian schools where the Wahabi teach nothing but hate of the West. By not saying that blatantly, but rather hinting at it, Wes got FOX to allow him to challenge the Bush support of the Saudi Royal Family, and get in by implication that it was their schools and mullahs teaching hate that led to all this terrorism in the first place. I thought it was subtle and masterful.

Wes is really using this FOX gig as a tool to reach the FOX viewer. I say, good for him!

TC

[FrenchieCat]

4. That's a good observation, TC....

That I had not noted.

However, my question is this: Did you get the message that he was saying that God does not want the killing innocent people (although using Islam as an example....he does leave out reference to it when making his most passionate plea at the end of the segment), which is what the Bush administration has done with its war in Iraq?

I note that many pro-lifers support the President who seems more about revenge including killing, more than just about anything else.

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. Well it's a double edged sword (pun intended)

The Cristian Right is a complete paradox. They talk about a "culture of life" and support a Political Party that cuts life saving benefits in programs for poor Americans. They talk about a Culture of Life and are eager to invade other countries, by no means War "only, only, only as a last resort". But they also may a lot of noise about Abortion being murder and God forbidding it. They also made a lot of noise about not pulling a feeding tube if someone is in a permanent vegetative state. So in their mind supporting Bush in those regards "stops the killing of innocent people."

So I see your point, but they may not. However another thing that Clark is doing here is preventing the Right Wing from having a monopoly on even the mention of God in any context. Clark is quite comfortable talking about Religion when it is relevant to a point being made. The Right wants the public to believe that only Republicans acknowledge God, because Republicans know that most Americans are "believers". Clark never lets them get away with that, though he never uses Religion to divide people, or judge them.

[FrenchieCat]

9. Thanks Tom,

for your wonderful take.

But when Wes looked into the camera, and said....
"This needs to be a discussion about religion, about God and about the Koran....and about what God expects from his men, his women and children on Earth..."

"to those who believe, as we do, that there's just no excuse for murdering innocent people"....

I felt that he was talking to those who would support a war waged against those who have not done anything TO US.

I think that is planting a seed of doubt...for the next time that we see Bush standing up there talking about killing folks.

[dogman]

15. I believe that is the ultimate endgame.

They need a discussion of what God wants, but so does the Christian community. Opening up this dialog sets up discussion for other religions as well. Are we seeking what God wants fundamentally or what the fundamentalists want God to be. This is where the followers of any religion must think about their "values" and how they are best upheld. The believers in all faiths must determine if they are going to be bullied by the dictatorial leaders or follow the teachings of the founders of their religion. The majority of faiths, if practiced as established, would lead to peace and harmony.

[FrenchieCat]

21. That is how I see it.

I believe that there is a very concrete cognitive dissonance in the world that the Religious Wrong reside in and their choices in politics....and there is the same discrepancy in the world of the extremist Jihadists.

Pointing to it can only make one hide or see the truth, depending on one's sincerity.

It's like the message one might receive from his/her pastor at church on Sunday; God loves a cheerful giver. Well, those same folks who hear that message, are oftentimes the same folks that will gripe about taxes, and how they are paying for others in our society, yada yada yada....

I like the undertone of Wes' message because it is saying the truth to those who would prefer not to hear it, in a manner that doesn't make them feel like turning away. They first hear the message as being addressed to others....but I think, they also, in their hearts of hearts, have an inkling that extremists can be anywhere.

[Totally Committed]

22. "I like the undertone...

"... of Wes' message because it is saying the truth to those who would prefer not to hear it, in a manner that doesn't make them feel like turning away."

And that, in a nutshell, is the brilliance of Wesley Clark. He can get a message across, and you just cannot turn away. It is his elegance of thought... he thinks super intelligently, but talks so he is understood, as it turns out, on many levels.

TC

[Tinksrival]

33. Kick Kick kick, You are so right dogman

I wish people, dems and repubs, would just listen to what General Clark has to say!
I just watched this again Frenchie, Thanks for the post.

[Jai4WKC08]

18. One thing I've never understood about the "Christian Wrong"

They claim "murdering the unborn" is wrong because they're innoscent whereas capital punishment or war is not, or not so much so, because the people being killed are responsible for their actions.

Do they really have NO clue as to how many "unborn" babies die in war? Not to mention the just-born, recently-born, just-a-few-years ago-born... you catch my drift. And are they so removed from the reality of military life that they don't realize that even "enemy soldiers" are just young people, little more than kids, doing what they think is their duty just the same as our young men and women are? Geez, I don't know many professional soldiers who don't realize that, especially if they've ever seen the elephant for themselves.

Ya know what I think? I think a helluva lot of the so-called "Right to Lifers," especially those in the Republican party who support the war, don't care about the unborn dead in Iraq, or the kids, or the troops, because they're brown unborn etc, whereas they picture in their minds that the unborn etc from this country are white. The reality doesn't matter--a disproportionate number of our soldiers are NOT white--only the perception really counts. It may even be a sub-conscious differentiation for many of them, but I think that's a lot of it.

That's why a Terry Schaivo or that poor girl in Aruba catches their imagination so. There are cases of life-support removal and missing people all over the world every single day, but they never seem to get any attention unless they're white. Attractive helps too of course, but that's a television thing.

And look at the female soldier who was wounded and captured in the early part of the war they made such a hullabaloo over. Her Native American comrade in arms was killed--who even knows her name? And her African-American comrade was captured, and exposed to nobody-knew-what at the time, and we didn't hear much about her either.

We still live in a very racist society, and all of us grew up in it and have been influenced in one way or another. How much more so among those who have insulated themselves from anyone too different from themselves for most of their lives.

I could get on my soap-box now about the draft and how it forces people from very different backgrounds to live and work and sometimes go thru hell together, but I'll spare you. ;) Guess I've rambled enough for one post.

[Tom Rinaldo]

19. Bingo. BRAVO!

Selective outrage is an outrage. It is holier than thou hypocrisy. It is presuming guilt and innocence how where and when it conveniently supports their world view, and that world view also conveniently supports their self interests.

[Totally Committed]

20. Jai, her name was Shoshona Johnson...

She was part Arapaho and part Black. She was the only other female captured with Jessica Lynch.

But, I agree with you on this being a racist society. I remember how lovely Shoshona was when she spoke on behalf of Wes during the primaries. She was intelligent, well-spoken, and imformed. Just a lovely young woman.

TC

[LandOLincoln]

23. And the Hopi woman who was killed was named

Lori Piestewa.

[Totally Committed]

24. Ah...........

Lori Piestawa! Yes, she was killed, rest her soul.

This war just sucks, and it never stops sucking.

TC

[LandOLincoln]

36. I agree with you about Shoshana Johnson.

She was absolutely amazing the one time I saw her, when she appeared (via satellite, IIRC) with Wes on Larry King.

She needs to run for office, and I mean NOW.

[Totally Committed]

37. Now, SHE would be a candidate...

I would love to see run!

TC

[FrenchieCat]

25. But sometimes I don't know who takes the "greater" interest

in stories like Terri Schiavo and Missing Girl in Aruba. I tend to think that these stories are actually forced upon a large number of us, and that we are given very little option on what our news priority, as the mass public, will be.

If one turns from one channel to the next, and only see these stories on display, it becomes a matter of not watching these cable channels or following the story. For some, watching the car wreck at the side of the road is almost an instinct...an inate reaction.

One of the reason that Schiavo actually did more damage than good to the Repugs is that this was a story that many people really didn't want to know about, because they felt that it was "personal". I think that a lot of their "disapproval" of that entire issue stemmed from the fact that it was forced onto them, and there was no getting away from it. This blatant show of power by the news media, in its insistence in overly covering a story that people preferred would disappear, did as much damage to the media's credibility as it did the Pubs. I think that it awaken a lot of unsuspecting folks, to just how far the attempt to manipulate them could be taken.

I think that the American people are not as culpable as the media is in many of these cases (including the Jessica/Iraq story).

I believe that this is the bigger problem; the media is trying to determine the values that we are to hold, instead of allowing the public to set the tone and have the media be the mirror in where we can see our reflection.

[Totally Committed]

26. Well, they are probably still all pumped up

from choosing our Presidential Candidate for us (and look how well that turned out...) Why not try and choose the stories that reflect their values for us?

This media BS has really gone too far. I am so glad you are all over the problem!

TC

[Totally Committed]

7. I did get the message you speak of...

But Wes has given voice to that at least a few times -- especially during the Primaries. When he spoke of true spirituality, he said often that "God does not want the killing of innocent people", or words to that effect. Absolutely.

My guess is that Wes is trying to make people think, and also inspire their thoughts. It's his way.

TC

[FrenchieCat]

13. That's certain.....

If anyone can get someone to think, especially when discussing the issue of war, it's certainly is Wes!

[Totally Committed]

16. I just rewatched, and checked it out

with a family member who is Muslim... Wes did say "Wahabi" and "Wahabist" in that interview. I was told this applied to the Muslim taught in the madrassas in Saudi Arabia where the boys are taught nothing but hate of the west (especially America), and western culture.

He is making direct reference to the Saudis here. I thought so. He knows that the 9/11 terrorists were overwhelmingly Saudi. He knows that the Bush Family has close ties to the Saudi Royal Family. This is a subtle challenge that went out over FOX to the Saudis to clean up their act... and to the Bushes to quit supporting them if they don't! Bet on it.

Wes is so subtle, and so smooth.... this almost went unnoticed.

TC

[berni_mccoy]

3. I have to admit, first I was skeptical of Clark on Fox

Now I think it may, *just* may, be a good thing.

I'll keep listening to reports of his good doings... but I still won't watch Fox.

Clark on Fox is just a desperate attempt to get Democrats to watch... I won't fall for it.

[FrenchieCat]

5. Well, did you watch this clip?

Cause if you did, in wouldn't affect Faux rating. LOL!

[Totally Committed]

8. Maybe he doesn't watch because it just makes him queasy...

I know, it does me! LOL! But, I watch the clips to hear what Wes is saying.

TC

Edited: because, Tom is right -- I am not a heckler, and I meant "hear" the whole time! LOLOL!

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. TC

Did you mean "hear what Wes is saying?" Knowing you, I doubt you are a heckler, lol.

[Jai4WKC08]

11. Well, ya know, any network would do that

Of course you're right in saying, "Clark on Fox is just a desperate attempt to get Democrats to watch" ...from Fox/Murdoch's point of view. But what corporately owned media outlet carries anything or anybody except in an effort to get more viewers?

Fox has sort of maxed out the right-wing--the wingnuts won't watch anything else--and got the majority of the middle already too so not much room for growth there. If they're gonna grow, or even hold steady with the overall ebb in 24/7 news viewership, they have to go after moderate or uninformed (about Fox) Democrats.

CNN and MSNBC, otoh, are mostly trying to steal market share from Fox, instead of reaching out to the left. Stupid on their part, imo, but that's what they're doing.

In any case, they all hire or contract with people they think/hope will bring in a different or larger demographic. Heck, even AAR only hires people who they think will attract an audience, granted they're small enough to still have major growth potential on the left. And AAR has no serious competition.

So anyway, I don't think it's fair (and I'm not saying you're doing this, but some are) to judge what Clark is trying to accomplish, and whether he can or not, based on what Fox wants out of the bargain. As in almost every employment-type situation, they can, and do, have completely different motives. Nothing unusual about that.

I suppose there's a valid question as to whether Clark will further Fox's goals more than his (and our) own. Honestly, I don't think that many more Democrats are gonna watch Fox than do already. Maybe some. The Clark base, for example. How many that is is anyone's guess. But Fox management seems to think enough will to make it worth whatever they're paying him, and they're not stupid when it comes to making money.

But I think we have to ask ourselves, are the new-to-Fox Democrats, however many of them there might be, likely to change their party affiliation or voting habits based on watching Fox? If ANY of them do, will they be more in number than the independents and moderate Repubs who already watch Fox and might consider voting for a Democrat where they wouldn't have before? I think that question comes down to the power of truth, Democratic ideas, and Clark's personal persuasiveness. And I happen to have a lot of faith in all three.

One more related observation. I listen to Alan Colmes' talk radio show sometimes when I drive home at night. It may be my imagination but it almost seems like he's growing a pair since Clark has been speaking his own mind on Fox. Point is, there's something to be said for the idea that when one person shows the gumption to stand up and confront the monster, others are more likely join the battle. Maybe, just maybe, we'll see more of the usually limp liberals on Fox (and other news programs) showing a little more spine. That's called leadership by example, and it's one thing Clark is all about.

[FrenchieCat]

14. One day, we might even hear Colmes say....

Colmey don't play that...to Hannity! :rofl:

[xultar]

34. He's not trying 2 get u to watch Faux. He's trying to get Faux viewers

to watch him and get off the kool-aid.

Get it now! Can't you see. WE weren't reaching Faux kool-aid drinking viewers. They the kool-aid drinkers were only getting their news of us through Faux.

See what he's doing! Clark is opening the front. He knows not to preach to the choir.

[faithnotgreed]

12. thank you frenchie for sharing this. so VERY needed and true

thank you wes for this truth

[judy from nj]

17. Just saw this

I was at work when this was on, but it was truely a needed message. The right wingers want to foster hate for Islam, Wes wants Islam to show its good side. He is very effective in addressing the issue of cooperation among all people. I hope he gets a change to lead us so that we can move in the right direction in the future.

(He looked tired and like he was coming down with a cold. He works so hard.)

[roguevalley]

27. Wes Clark is a genuinely good man. May I get the pleasure of

being a delegate for him in 2008.

[Totally Committed]

28. roguevalley, Wes IS a genuinely good man...

so I appreciate your lovely post. I hope you get to be a delegate for him in '08, too. What state are you in?

TC

[Texas_Kat]

29. I think what I love about listening to General Clark

is his ability to frame his message in terms that everyone can understand and relate to.

He doesn't ridicule 'cos he knows this is serious business. He respects the values and intelligence of his audience and truly believes most people will do the right thing if he can just explain it well enough.

I used most 'cos I know even HE doesn't think Rush 'I have a 4F due to this big boil on my butt' Limbaugh will ever have a clue...:banghead:

[Gloria]

30. Part of Wes' comments were used to back up ROVE today....

My freeper mother was listening to the radio; I think it was Limbaugh or it sure sounded like him...

They played the last bit regarding terror/its murder/horrible--all that stuff and then the RWer said "And that proves Karl Rove is 90% right!"

I don't know what came before that, so I'm not sure of the context...but Wes' words were definitely used to bolster Rove....

[FrenchieCat]

31. And Rove was tearing Wes up just a few days ago....

so, what is Wes to do? Not say anything in fear that Rush will twist his words.

Maybe Rush was reffering to the interview that I linked. Of course Rush is gonna take things out of context to prove his point. What's new?

I mean when a pig smear a general and turns around a minute later and uses the general words to bolster his own point...what's a General to do?

I say that Rush is the one looking weird here.

[Jai4WKC08]

38. Rush Limbo is an asshole

No surprise there.

I didn't hear the broadcast, but ran across a short transcript in google news link below. He basically just took Clark's comments out of context and says that it proves that liberals want talk instead of action. As if Clark had said (or any other prominent Democrat would say) that the ideological component is the ONLY part of the problem we should be addressing. Which, for anyone who might not have listened to Clark's words, couldn't be farther from the truth. Which makes Rush a liar as well as an asshole, but that's no surprise either.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070805/content/stop_the_tape_2.guest.html

[Tinksrival]

32. Events have been so depressing lately

I tried to turn on the TV in the past couple of days but the talking heads seriously drive me nuts.
Seeing and hearing Wes Clark gives me hope. I know it sound corny but I got to say, I really think this man can lead us out of these dark years that have decended upon us.
Wes is good for America, Wes is good for the world.

Change can not happen fast enough!

[Totally Committed]

35. Could this be a response of Wes's plea to the Muslim Religious Community?

NYT: New (Finsbury Park mosque) Imam Calls for Help in Catching Bombers
New Imam Calls for Help in Catching Bombers
By CRAIG S. SMITH
Published: July 9, 2005

LONDON - The new imam at the Finsbury Park mosque, once a hotbed of radical Islam, had a message for those who gathered for prayer on Friday, a day after four bombs killed at least 49 people: help identify the bombers, he told them. Show your anger at what happened here.

His call to cooperate was a stark and deliberate contrast to a former imam, Abu Hamza al-Masri, now detained and facing extradition to the United States to face terrorism-related charges. Under his leadership, the Finsbury Park mosque became a recruiting center for jihadists for holy wars from Bosnia to Afghanistan.

It is that image the residents of this North London immigrant neighborhood are working hard to shed, eager to demonstrate to an increasingly anxious country that they are not to blame for the attacks on Thursday and that Finsbury Park has rid itself of extremists....

>snip<

The struggle in Finsbury Park reflects the broader divide between two Muslim worlds in Britain - the majority of moderates and the radical Islamists who live among them. For years, a relatively small band of radical Islamists hijacked Finsbury Park's image and threatened its economic rejuvenation.

But the moderates are reclaiming the mosque. They installed a new board of trustees who brought in the new, moderate imam. The mosque now offers a course on Islam for non-Muslims. The neighborhood's other, smaller mosque has thrown open its doors in an aggressive program to show London and the world that they do not harbor terrorists. It holds regular "open mosque weekends," in which all comers are invited to tour the mosque, watch videos about its charitable programs and eat from a buffet of halal food....

Link for article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/international/europe/09muslim.html?

Link for DU thread that posted it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1614429

TC