Daily Kos purges the tinfoil hat crowd

[geek tragedy]

http://dailykos.com/story/2005/7/8/114856/8349

<snip>
Today I did something I've never done before (not even during the Fraudster mess), and wish I'd never had to do.

I made a mass banning of people perpetuating a series of bizarre, off-the-wall, unsupported and frankly embarassing conspiracy theories.

I have a high tolerance level for material I deem appropriate for this site, but one thing I REFUSE to allow is bullshit conspiracy theories. You know the ones -- Bush and Blair conspired to bomb London in order to take the heat off their respective political problems. I can't imagine what fucking world these people live in, but it sure ain't the Reality Based Community.

So I banned these people, and those that have been recommending diaries like it. And I will continue to do so until the purge is complete, and make no mistake -- this is a purge.

This is a reality-based community. Those who wish to live outside it should find a new home. This isn't it.

Update: I've been reinstating some of the banned accounts as they email me. Some people wondered why there wasn't any warning. There have been warnings from others -- repeated pleadings for people to ground themselves in reality.

It's telling that I have NEVER done something like this before. Because this has been an extreme situation. This isn't about disagreeing with what people are saying. If that was the case, everyone would've been banned by now. The myth of the "echo chamber" is just that. A myth.

But as for warnings, well, this has been my warning. I wanted it clear that I was serious, and I think that has come through. I am reinstating those who ask to be reinstated. But the message has been sent.
<snip>

:spank: :applause: :popcorn: :headbang: :yourock:

[Moochy]

1. A worthy response

Ahh, but "purge" fits so well (none / 0)

With the new pseudo-Communist site redesign! Ha!

by strandedlad on Fri Jul 8th, 2005 at 13:47:55 PDT

[MisterLiberal]

350. A chill

I tell you what; once it gets to the point that we are silencing OUR OWN MEMBERS, we are in trouble.

What happened to freedom of speech? I mean seriously, some of it may be wacky but a lot of it is thinking out loud.

What happens now over there? Must someone fill out an application to think out loud?

I don't know about you guys, but stuff like this is scarier than Shrub. Even THINKING that someone <i>on our side</i> is now censoring us.

That's electronic FRAGGING!!! We're supposed to COVER each others' backs! If someone gets outta line, approach them offline to straighten up. If they still don't, THEN ban them!

But a blanket "anyone who posts something not in step will be banned" is crazy!

The rightwingnuts are no doubt giddy with their "I told you they're crazy" posts.

This does NOT HELP OUR CAUSE!

What's next?

[seemslikeadream]

356. Must someone fill out an application to think out loud?

I like it

Thanks

[bluestateguy]

2. I agree with him

I have a pretty high tolerance for conspiracy theories too, enough so that many of my colleagues consider me wacko, but I have my limits too. Fact is that Bush does not have the power to do many of the things the tinfoil crowd accuses him of doing. Even conspiracy theories have to be grounded in some degree of real evidence and a testable hypothesis.

[Moochy]

3. Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary evidence

I agree that folks jumping to the conclusion that bush did it, for every bad thing in the world needs to be stopped.

Kos reinstated anyone who was purged, if they requested. Sounds like he exercised some editorial control, which maybe was necessary.

He could use a Public relations guy though, as they would have made him use another word than "purge". :)

[H5N1]

8. Once bush allows an exhaustive investigation of 911

and that investigation turns up no major implication
on the part of the US we can drop the 'tinfoil hat' theories.
Seems foolish to do so at this time.
Bush proves time after time there is nothing they will not say or do
to meet their ends.

[Moochy]

17. Kos has a right to exercise his editorial discretion

I agree with you regarding the need for an exhaustive non-compromised investigation, and am a skeptic of the official 911 story.

Even DU has it's forum where these topics are given some attention, but interestingly enough you can't recommend a topic for the front page.

And to be fair he allowed those deleted to come back, and warned them to back up their claims with evidence, and not fact-free speculation.

[ooglymoogly]

345. there are questions about 9 ll that baffle the honest brain

and the bush admin puts up a brick wall at every turn...until these questions are answered...i do not put anything past this admin.

[H5N1]

24. We live in extraordinary times

and I do not mean extraordinarily good.
Bush runs in a super-top-secret environment
for a reason.

[shance]

58. And Extraordinary Times require Extraordinary actions and examination.

These are extraordinary times.

[Jack Rabbit]

4. That's a pretty strong statement

I feel sorry for some of those being removed from the site, but I certainly support Kos' efforts to prevent his site from becoming a cesspool of wild fantasy.

Bush and the neocons are evil, but they didn't invent Osama.

[Eloriel]

7. So, what date was it that bin Laden was taken off the CIA payroll?

I'd like to know, and a link for my records would be nice too.

[seemslikeadream]

9. I don't know Eloriel let's first look back to when he was hired

The C.I.A. & The Muslim BrotherhoodHow the CIA set the stage for Sept11
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2268109

CIA & The Muslim Brotherhood How the CIA set the stage for 9/11 Pt.2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2272207

[geek tragedy]

12. By the early 90's at the absolute latest.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/190144.asp?cp1=1

Unless, of course, you think that Bill Clinton was funding him.

[seemslikeadream]

16. and Rwanda didn't happen either

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. Eh?

Maybe your meaning was obvious, or maybe I'm confused...

[Minstrel Boy]

51. Since British intelligence paid al Qaeda to assassinate Qadaffi in 1996

maybe Osama has "free agent status."

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,9174,837333,00.html

[geek tragedy]

68. Because a book written by two conspiracy loons proves that fact! eom

[Minstrel Boy]

73. Call people loons, nuts and tinfoilers, and think your job is done?

A portion of Brisaud and Dasquie's Forbidden Truth was originally commissioned by French Intelligence, and resulted in the closure of a number of al Qaeda linked charities.

And what they said corroborated the account of MI5 veteran David Shayler, who had a D-Notice slapped on him, just as Sibel Edmonds has been gagged, because what he was saying compromised "national security."

[Name removed]

264. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

196. He didn't work for Bill Clinton...Clinton was also never part of the CIA..

The same can't be said for Bush 41, and I'm not at all sure about Bush 43.

And what two Middle Eastern families have been VERY friendly with the Bush family over the last few decades?

And how many of the 19 hijackers were Saudi nationals?

And how many of the 19 hijackers attended US military schools?

Why did Mueller of the FBI state in a public speech that no paper trail could be found linking the hijackers to OBL/Al Qaeda?

Lots of good questions that have yet to be answered, but you go ahead and be as insulting as you want to be.

[Frederik]

261. A Dutch parliamentary investigation

conducted a couple of years ago concluded that US military intelligence had clandestinely brought Arab "mujaheddin" into Bosnia between 1993 and 1995 (in collusion with Iran, no less). Bin Laden probably carried a Bosnian passport at the time. He was also involved in the Kosovo Liberation Army before and during the NATO war against Serbia in 1999.

And if you're willing to believe anonymous French intelligence sources, quoted by Le Figaro and The Guardian, the CIA station chief in Dubai had a meeting with him in July 2001.

When did the relationship end? Who knows, but he was probably allowed to escape from Tora Bora, and we haven't seen much of him since.

As for Clinton, the US government is not a monolith where the guy at the top is in charge of everything that is done by every agent in every agency.

[H5N1]

14. He may still be on the payroll, but I'll bet we gouged his pension!

Incredible how some who come here every day
have not noticed how utterly corrupt Bush is.
How utterly evil in every way. This is no time to
be dismissing anything.

[Eloriel]

174. Amen

I have no idea WHAT happened or who caused it, but I'll be damned if I'll dismiss out of hand reasonable speculation about one country or another's possible intel being at cause. Nope. Stranger things have happened. We owe it to ourselves to be vigilant about what the possibilities are.

This was 4 little bombs. It would've been SO easy for some CIA agents to deposit them here and there. I DO NOT KNOW IF THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED< but I also don't know that it didn't. And I can't count on any corporate media to tell me the truth necessarily, either.

:shrug: That's just the way things are these days. Actually, AFAIK, that's just the way things have been since November, 1963 -- but most of us didn't get the memo.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

197. Nah...the NeoCons probably gave him a big bonus.

[bobbieinok]

200. reminder to all----watch bushflash video on Saddam

http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html

it ends with statement to the effect 'Saddam,--he was always ours'

Eloriel, I'm sure you're familiar with this info

reminder is for everyone else....it's a mind-blowing history

[seemslikeadream]

211. Eric Blumrich must be banned from KOS won't see him there

TOO TINFOIL

[loftycity]

15. They just hired him..

:think:

[blm]

22. Poppy's deal for US bases in Saudi Arabia invented Usama and backlash from

the Muslim world.

Poppy's arms dealings with Islamic extremists which included training helped create Usama the warrior and the Taliban.

[Jack Rabbit]

48. Small correction

Using and training Islamists in Afghanistan was a policy continued by the Reagan administration. However, it was the brainchild of Dr. Brzezinski, President Carter's National Security Adviser. This began almost as soon as the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979.

Osama himself appears to have begun funneling money to the Mujahideen in 1984, well into Reagan's tenure.

[blm]

84. I always thought that Brzezinski was influenced by the Poppy/Kissinger

voices whispering the latest maneuvers.

[Jack Rabbit]

102. No, they were all Cold Warriors

They started with the same set of axioms and worked on similar problems; therefore, they arrived at similar solutions.

[ChiciB1]

320. He's Sounding Much More Critical Of Neon-Cons Of Late....

Yes, I meant NEON-Cons!!

[Frederik]

269. Another correction

By Brzezinski's own admission, the destabilization of the Communist government in Afghanistan by the CIA began six months before the Soviet invasion, precisely to lure the Soviets into invading. Z-big planned to create a "jihad" in Afghanistan before the Soviets even invaded. He had been persuaded by British "historian"/Foreign Office intel officer Bernard Lewis of the desireability of creating an "arch of crisis" along Russia's southern rim.

As soon as Reagan took office, CIA director Casey took over the project and ran it with great enthusiasm. It became the most massive covert operation ever conducted by the CIA.

Osama worked closely with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, whose group was the main recipient of US aid. He (Osama) may have travelled to the US with the CIA on a fundraising tour at this time. Mujaheddin were probably trained in the US, they received their visas in the CIA-infested US consulate in Jeddah, as did 15 of the 9/11 hijackers.

Paul Thompson has, if not the full story, at least the fullest story on Osama available:

www.cooperativeresearch.org

[seemslikeadream]

283. PAUL THOMPSON but he posts in Tinfoil Central

geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-09-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #83
90. Here's the link to Tinfoil Central:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

[tavalon]

207. Um, actually, in a way they did

The CIA taught him everything he knows - in the pursuit of driving the USSR out of Afganistan and hopefully bankrupting them at the same time. They didn't realize their star pupil would one day turn on them. Oops, bad planning.

[Jack Rabbit]

245. I wouldn't disagree with that

However, they didn't do that with the intention of spawning September 11. That's what I mean by that remark.

[blondeatlast]

333. "Bush and the neocons are evil, but they didn't invent Osama."

One of the best lines I've read on DU, ever.

[Rob_G]

390. well, not in an Emmanuel Goldstein sort of way...

...but in a CIA-propping-up-tinpot-dictators way, yeah, they sort of did....

[Jack Rabbit]

409. See post 245

And welcome to DU.

[whatever4]

5. Oooookay

Then if I feel the need to discuss it, I will do so somewhere else. I do appreciate the warning.

[BornaDem]

6. Makes sense to me. It's not even possible to keep track...

of all the nutty conspiracy theories generated by our side anymore. I thought the conservatives were bad when Clinton was in office with their off-the-wall stuff, but we had put them to shame by the end of Bush's first year in office.

[wyldwolf]

10. good for KOS

[erpowers]

219. David Sorata

I saw some of you quotes at the bottom of your post. Are you using those in sarcasm or do you really not like David Sorata. I am one of those that believes that Democratic Party should stop trying to be centrist.

[wyldwolf]

248. tell you what

Read the David Sirota piece then read the two pieces that debunk what he says.

The Democratic party has always been moderate centrist.

[unlawflcombatnt]

304. David Sirota

I like everything I've ever heard David Sirota say. He is a populist Democrat, and definitely believes Democrats should stop trying to be centrist. I think he is also very anti-free trade, which I also like. Sirota doesn't believe in compromise regarding corporate malfeasance. He's definitely one of my favorites.

[wyldwolf]

317. he also wrote a piece ...

with a few factual inaccuracies..either intentionally - which says something about him, or unintentionally - which also speaks volumes.

[JackRiddler]

397. Well, I'm shocked ...

since you set up every post as an official DLC advertisement, I'm oh-so suprised that you approve of a purge of those with deviant thoughts.

[shance]

11. Kos would rather trust Bush and Blair than those searching for answers?

It seems Mr. Kos would rather "purge" those offering suggestions and potentially important information worthy of consideration from his website, than those that need to be "purged" from Pennsylvania Avenue and Downing Street.

Why? What is Mr. Kos so afraid of?

How many more innocent deaths will it take before individuals like Mr. Kos will stop trying to eliminate important discussion and/or try to smugly appear superior to those that truly care about the truth and the direction this country and this world continues to move toward.

Seems that Mr. Kos has consistently has had an inability for tolerance of peoples opninions other than his rather narrowminded views and his need to remain in the ever snug, illusionarily safe box of conventional thinking.

Can't think TOO much can we? That may mean we may actually have an opportunity to save the planet. Nope, can't go there.

He certainly has a right to censor and eliminate any other suggestions that may provide clearer answers, but then his site will remain the marginal, luke warm, "eh" site that it is.

Real change will never come from playing it safe. Rest assured, all illusions and fantasies aside, these are not safe times.

[earth mom]

138. Agreed-The rigid thinking is one reason that I don't like KOS.

And these kind of tactics are too reminiscent of freeperville.

:tinfoilhat:

[brentspeak]

203. Freepers sometimes pose as extreme left-wingers on DU

say some ridiculous comment about "US troops being war criminals" or whatever, just to pi$$ off the average Democrats. It's worked, apparently; a lot of average Democrats have left DU.

[earth mom]

226. Huh.

I've never thought of extreme left wing views as a turn off. I'm more turned off by everyone having to toe some kind of party line with everyone loving Clinton and conforming to what everyone else thinks. If people leave because they can't handle other peoples point of view, maybe DU wasn't the right place for them in the first place.

What drew me to DU initially was the stolen 04 election and the fact that many here believed it was stolen. Sure, some didn't. But at least it was openly discussed instead of being pooh poohed as a conspiracy theory as it was done on KOS and elsewhere. Kudos to DU for letting us discuss it, I say! And that goes for the September 11 forum too!

:applause:

[Frederik]

279. Well, some troops are war criminals

And that needs to be said.

[shance]

303. I hope you are not talking to me Brent.

I don't know what your point is.

[brentspeak]

306. I'm not talking about you

I'm not even pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I was just responding only to TheGoldenRule, since he mentioned Freepers. I just know that it's gone on, as Skinner mentioned in an earlier thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2907807&mesg_id=2907807&page=

I don't think Democratic Underground is a threat. But I do think that some people have figured out that they can use extreme posts from Democratic Underground to paint all Democrats as extremists.

This is nothing new. Right-wing websites and radio programs have been doing it to us for years: Pick out something extreme from an anonymous message board, and then post it on your own site as "proof" that liberals are nuts. In fact, if you can't find something extreme enough, then all you have to do is create an anonymous login and post some extreme stuff yourself. (To be clear, I'm not accusing the Times or Fox News of doing this. But it does happen.)

[sled]

402. Exactly...

If they didn't already exist, Karl Rove & company would have to invent them...they're the first ones, to go on the attack, with outrageous rants & juvenile name-calling, etc., when someone doesn't toe the PC line...& the first to applaud, when another Dem gets thrown overboard...it's a political "tragedy"... IMHO

[SoCalDem]

191. Mr Kos has "graduated" from young guy typing away into cyberspace

a la Drudge, to young guy who's a regular on AAR, and invited guest on tee-vee...so of course, he's 'cleaning house'.. There's money to be made here, and unless he "fits" the MOTR mold, they'll pass him by and get another one.

[KoKo]

228. You said it So Cal! Ain't that the truth!

Been watching this since all the "hoo hah" over him in an article after the Dem Convention where they talked about his prominence and that he would be writing for the "Guardian." Kos did a great job on "Jimmy/Jeff" and other issues but I guess this means "Shut Up," because
Biden is calling for "unity" in the Party setting up his 2008 run.


Big time calls them like "moths to a flame."

[trebizond]

328. bullseye! -nt

[tavalon]

209. Um

He's afraid of having his site marginalized by all of this premature conjecture. I think some of the conjecture is going to shake out as being valid but some of it won't shake out. He will likely allow the discussion when more evidence comes to light.

[JackRiddler]

399. Four years after 9/11...

What's premature, exactly?

[WhoWantsToBeOccupied]

13. How does he know what happened?

How does ANYONE know yet what caused the London bombings? Everyone is THEORIZING. And there was obviously a CONSPIRACY to bomb London.

The theory that Islamic terrorists did this is also a CONSPIRACY THEORY at this point!

DailyKos is wrong. There's little evidence of anything at this point. Banning people who argue for one theory over another is censorship.

For the record, I personally suspect London is a LIHOP (let it happen on purpose), not a MIHOP (make it happen on purpose) or an intelligence failure.

[Last Lemming]

56. Here, here

[earth mom]

142. I'm with ya.

:tinfoilhat:

[Old and In the Way]

274. I agree.

Almost 4 years since 9/11 and we still don't have the alledged 9/11 mastermind caught nor do we seem to know anything more about this mysterious AQ terrorist organization. We do, however, know a lot about war profiteers, war criminals, and an administration that, at best, is guilty of criminal incompetence in their disregard of impending attacks that caused 3000 to lose their lives on 9/11.

If I knew that my incompetence could get me indicted, charged, and found guilty of 3000 counts of manslaughter as well as untold thousands of lives lost in Iraq due to lies told to promote a war that was unnecessary, would I do everythng in my power to steal an election and maintain my grip on power? You betcha. I might even let another event occur so I could suspend the Constitution altogether and become the dictator I always wanted to be....

[Frederik]

282. Actually the alleged mastermind is caught

His name is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and he is probably held at Diego Garcia. He was - allegedly - caught in March 2003 and that's the last thing we know. Fat chance we'll ever see him tried, as I can't imagine they have much evidence against him (as FBI director Mueller said, there's no "paper trail" connecting anyone to 9/11).

[trebizond]

329. well said! -nt

[Al-CIAda]

18. He thinks the election was fair. Need more be said? n/t

[seemslikeadream]

20. Thanks Al-CIAda I didn't know that

no loss then

[H5N1]

27. That just about says it all

[sadiesworld]

49. What next?

No more discussion of kooky conspiracies about Bushco manufacturing intel to support the Iraq War?

Blech!

[bloom]

135. also "Kos has no patience for the "sanctimonious women's studies set"

as long as we're piling on....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=341&topic_id=55&mesg_id=249&page=


I guess Kos must be for mainstream anti-feminist types. :shrug:

[Moochy]

153. Feminneonazis anyone

Yeah I'm not a big kos fan of late, not really for this but for other statements he's made that don't resonate with me.

Are US Marines known for their support of radical feminists? just wonderin.

[bloom]

162. Is he a Marine?

I don't know much about him. But I know there was a huge flap about his anti-feminist comments on various boards.

[Rob_G]

396. Well, it certainly seems a little inconsistent...

... that he wants free speech for women's mud wrestling, but not for people on his own site.

[dbeach]

247. Al qaeda= All CIA Duh!

ban all speech then bush can declare himself the second comin of christ and the repukes will have completed their goal of silencing all critics of der fuhrer
plus get their rupture...oops I mean rapture..

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. Excellent!

[vickie]

23. Good for Kos. DU should also be leery of wild conspiracies...

[leesa]

221. You mean like the ones put out there by the White House about Muslim

terrorists? The Neocons are the ONLY ones to benefit from this crap. Why do you choose to remain blind?

You prefer state sanctioned conspiracy theories?

[adolfo]

25. Conspiracies

Sometimes government conspiracies can be frightenly true.

Examples:

MKULTRA CIA program
Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment
HUMAN RADIATION EXPERIMENTS, 1946-1974

Not trying to justify anything, just pointing out a basic fact. I agree we should maintain some kind of decorum.

[whatever4]

42. And if there's a problem with YOUR post

Then I've got a problem with DU. Unfortunately, another problem external to myself.

[adolfo]

62. Oh well

If you are easily offended by basic facts why should I censor myself?

[BenTrem]

241. "Conspiracies" and "Big Lie Theory"

"Sometimes government conspiracies can be frightenly true."
Yaa ... that's what I was thinking. Not that I'm a huge fan of restricted debate (but doesn't DU have explicit policies concerning posting arguments like those by "our political opponents"?), and I think banning is a really blunt instrument i.e. big stick ... and most conspiracy talk I've read is a variation of anti-realism ... but, but but, sometimes folk really do need a good stroke with the clue stick.

And yet ... the more outrageous the action the less likely it'll strain plausible deniability. Folk don't want to believe in actual evil ... and the psychopaths know that.

Hey, surely there must be something like Skeptical Inquirer for conspiracy theories ... no?

p.s. my first post ... greets to all ... http://livejournal.com/~gnodal is my project blog

[adolfo]

246. I'm honored

Welcome to DU!

[FourStarDemocrat]

255. Welcome to DU BenTrem!

I think that Kos probrably should have just kept on dissuading posters at DKos who unsubstantiated 'tin foil' theories, but should not have done the purge. That purging action just brings the fact that the site had numerous such posts to light. He's probrably doing this to raise the level of prestige that his site is afforded by MSM. However, I'm a casual reader of that site and read several of the blog posts and comments there every day, and I have not come across many conspiracy-laden comments. I don't think they're all that noticeable.

[Douglas Carpenter]

26. good for kos

I don't like the idea of banning people...But, come one...we have to protect some credibility

[shance]

35. And Bush, Cheney, Blair, 'mainstream media' - they have "credibility"?

Why are there those of you that still give these individuals and mediums power when they have betrayed our trust and our well being to such an unlimited degree?

I don't ask this angrily, I simply want to understand this concern over looking "not credible" more than finding out the truth?

[Douglas Carpenter]

335. No they don't and I don't believe in Bush/Cheney's conspiracy theories

either. And I am sure the kos doesn't. Pro-democracy forces should and must have a higher standard.

The Kos simply stated that if something sounds a bit far out--there should be solid evidence.

There are right wing groups that claim "proof" that the National Education Association is a socialist conspiracy. Proof takes more than speculative connecting of dots in a way that fulfills ones own wishful thinking.

[leesa]

222. Open your eyes. Just try, once.

[Rob_G]

398. I think banning people...

...is more damanging to Kos's credibility than just letting people post.

The right has always characterized the left as censorious, citing speech-purges on left-leaning college campuses and all that. Kos is playing right into their hands, giving the right and their vast echo chamber one more example of a well-known left-wing blogger indulging his censor-impulse.

Meanwhile, censorship on the right goes unchallenged.

If Kos is happy to be Air America's darling, and he wants Air America to be more than a ghetto so that Kos can get all famous, then he has to fight the exclusion of the left by the MSM. And he can't fight that exclusion when he's censoring people on his own board, and expect to have any credibility.

[Moochy]

28. Reality based my ass

Feeling schizophrenic, I thought I'd jump on the YAY FOR SHUTTING UP THE TINFOIL HATTERS bandwagon. :sarcasm:

But I'm not sure I know which emoticons to stuff into my message that indicate scorn, ridicule for those who might slip up and venture off the beaten path.

Kos is the owner of the site, nuff said. he can ban whomever he wants for whatever reasons.

sigh

[JohnnyBoots]

30. Anyone know of or willing to set up a site

that allows for this kind of conversation?

[Minstrel Boy]

60. Since you asked,

I have a discussion board associated with my blog that encourages such conversation.

[dbeach]

256. done

see ya there..

[BlackVelvet04]

Here you go.....

forum

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. May I suggest...

[Moochy]

33. Snark on

snark on

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. Sorry, I don't have a snark emoticon.

But I thought the union of those four came somewhat close to "snark"

[Moochy]

40. Figured you'd know given what I've read

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. Indeed.

[Moochy]

47. Better to just post on forum.porno-freaks.nl or FR?

Yeah its tiresome to read about all these threads about election reform, corruption. better to just put those into the forums where I dont have to click on them. Like the 911 forum.. keep em separated.

:eyes:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

53. I seem to have missed...

...something on the way to this argument. Not saying I didn't toss a grenade earlier, only that I toss them indiscriminately.

[seemslikeadream]

61. Maybe you didn't miss it Maybe it was CENCORED!

and you just didn't get a chance to read it

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

70. My head hurts.

[seemslikeadream]

232. Objective achieved

[JohnnyBoots]

34. Your tolerance knows no bounds

[Rob_G]

400. "Kos is the owner of the site, nuff said."

That doesn't mean it's a good idea to ban people, just because he has the right to do it. He created a public forum, attracted a lot of attention to it, and is now banning legions of people for having the wrong viewpoint. That does not speak well of progressive commitment to free expression.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

29. Dont allow ANY comments then.

Would Yahoo think of deleting users because they spew garbage on their message boards?

lol.

[shance]

39. Thank you. Let's make sure everyone answers in the SAME way.

So Mr. Kos and those who need to censor and control everyone's answers can feel comfortable, even if what they may be saying is the TRUTH.

[geek tragedy]

41. No, his point is that the CT'ers indulge in wild fantasies instead

of dealing in reasoned discussion. Those people wouldn't know the truth if they sat on it.

It's like debating evolution with fundies.

[whatever4]

45. Funny though

It sounded a lot broader than that. And it didn't sound good to me at all.

[JohnnyBoots]

46. Early on evolution and the idea that the Earth is round were

whacked out theories too.

[geek tragedy]

66. And the EVIDENCE supports the 'round' theory.

Speculation that Bush or Blair did the bombings is nothing but idiotic, insane blather from people without a halfway decent command of logic and reasoning.

[JohnnyBoots]

72. So you know who is

responsible and can back it up with concrete evidence right now?

[geek tragedy]

94. I know that there is circumstantial evidence that Islamists are involved.

Given the long string of Islamist terror attacks in the past decade or so.

I also know that there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that the British or US government were involved.

[JohnnyBoots]

97. The CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence is strong on both sides

[geek tragedy]

100. No, it's not. There is no circumstanial evidence to suggest that Tony

Blair was responsible for the bombing.

Sorry, but the CT'ers have little grasp on how to weigh evidence vs. their own idle fantasies.

[JohnnyBoots]

109. I never said Bush or Blair was involved.

[geek tragedy]

116. But, you maintain there is "strong" circumstantial evidence pointing

to US and British governmental involvement in the bombings, when there is actually none.

[JohnnyBoots]

119. No I never said that either, I just have an open mind as

to who it could be. Anything is possible. I think it irresponsible to be so dismissive of differing points of view.

[geek tragedy]

123. Read your own post title: "The circumstantial evidence is strong

on both sides."

[JohnnyBoots]

127. Both sides meaning the MSM version and the

other side of the argument that says that MSM might not be exactly on point.

[Frederik]

284. There is strictly speaking very little

circumstantial evidence to suggest any perpetrator. If you want to consider previous attacks as circumstantial evidence, then the attack bears a close resemblance to the Madrid bombing, which was carried out by Moroccon jihadists (some of them police informants), as well as to the Bologna train station bombing in 1980, which was carried out by a neo-fascist group on behalf of Italian/US/NATO intelligence.

[JohnnyBoots]

99. Way to genralize with term Islamist too. Terrorsit is

much more appropriate. Should we refer to the IRA as Catholic Fundementalists?

[geek tragedy]

103. Call them Catholic nationalists if you want. But, the sheer number

of terrorist bombings conducted by Islamists is considerable.

[JohnnyBoots]

113. What does that make us Manifest Destinists?

[geek tragedy]

117. What's your point--that Islamists aren't responsible for a great deal of

terror? Or can't you tell Islamists and Muslims apart?

[JohnnyBoots]

126. The term Islamist paints

a picture in the mind of Joe Lunchbox that all followers of Islam are terrorists. I have many muslim friends and would hate to see them put in harms way of becoming victims of a hate hate crime because of dangerous genralizations like that. Terrorsts, AQ operatives, whatever is much better than bringing Islam into it. These terrorist follw a bastadized form of the religion that bears no resemblence to Islam in its purist form.

[geek tragedy]

131. Sorry, but that's PC nonsense. Their motivations and ideology are

certainly relevant to a discussion of their campaign of terrorism.

Islamist is perfectly accurate. If people aren't smart enough to grasp the difference between Muslims and Islamists, they need to be educated.

[JohnnyBoots]

133. People aren't smart enough to differentiate that

is why it dangerous. Some neo-nazi sect associate themselves with Christianity, does that make all Christians white supremacists? No it doesn't

[geek tragedy]

137. Which is why they're called Islamists instead of Muslims. Dominionists

and Christian fundamentalists are perfectly valid descriptions of the Jerry Falwell crowd.

[JohnnyBoots]

140. You don't get what

I am saying in your average non-politically inclined person, terrorism instills fear. Usually fear of the other. That fear is labeled with Islamist. Which is then equated with Islam, putting alllaw abiding practioners at risk.

[geek tragedy]

146. People are fully aware that the folks who bombed the WTC pray to Allah.

Using PC terminology isn't going to change that awareness.

[JohnnyBoots]

152. It's the escalation of violence towards followers of

Islam who had nothing to do with anything. The way you talk just strengthens the bogeyman perona that law abiding Islamic US citizens have to live with.

[geek tragedy]

155. Sorry, but the truth is not something to be hidden. That the terrorists

attacking places like London, Madrid, Bali, and New York share a religious/theocratic agenda is most certainly worth discussing.

[JohnnyBoots]

157. We're talking about two entirely different things

[Frederik]

287. In Western countires,

the number is not considerable. In fact, it is much smaller than the number of bombings carried out by Catholic extremists, whether in Ireland/England or Italy.

[geek tragedy]

322. Terrorism kills people across the globe--my analysis is not Euro-centric.

[shance]

50. What and how you define fantasy is not relative GT***

One man's fantasy is anothers reality. Fantasy is also akin to the word 'terrorism'. It is both vague and non specific.

There are many things Kos may not agree with, that's fine. However if he is going to have a site which offers a place to post, he shouldn't claim ominipotence on issues that he has absolutely no idea what the truth is. Mr. Kos is not the truth patrol. In addition to eliminate important subjects from being discussed does neither him any good or anyone else any good. Don't have a site and pretend you are "progressive" (hahahaha) if you censor things you simply don't like to read.

I believe we can all pretty much decipher what is totally outlandish. Patterns and information backing up patterns of wrongdoing need to be looked at, no matter how difficult and/or frightening. We won't get through the tough stuff if we don't.

[seemslikeadream]

54. We are not capable, we are children someone has to decide

what is appropriate for us to read.

[Moochy]

57. Freedom of the press

is for he who pays for the ink? or in this case the bandwidth. KOS and his advertisers and supporters. Not trying to muddy the waters here but I'd heard that Kos has ties or at least communicates with the DNC.

You know ... the patriarchs (father figures) of our party.

[geek tragedy]

64. Suggestions that Bush or Blair did the bombing are PURE idiocy.

No factual support whatsoever. No evidence. Nothing. Zilch.

Just a bunch of deranged loonies who decide to make shit up and then call it "the truth" despite what the sane portion of the planet thinks.

If you have no evidence, your theory is shit. Period.

[Moochy]

75. The yahoo story re: Israel was red herring

The mistake made by the press early after the bombings, was to print that Netanyahu had changed his plans before the bombing. That story went out on yahoo, and was later corrected by everyone involved, AP Israel's ambassador to britain etc.

It was posted many times by people who were likely shocked at seeing the story at yahoo. It doesnt follow that people who were suspicious were "deranged loonies who decide to make shit up and then call it "the truth"...

So, the yahoo story was false evidence, and cause for concern for the first hour or two when the story went out on AP. When AP and the Israel ambassador clarified the misunderstanding I discounted the story.

Period.

[shance]

78. Who suggested anything about their involvement? However, what is your

PROBLEM with asking questions GT?

What are you afraid of?


Would you rather believe something that is being told to you which isnt true, than actually investigating, researching and actually knowing the truth so you can DO something about it?

If it is so and somehow our leaders were involved, wouldn't you rather know the truth than not?

Either way, their leadership is very much a part of what happened in London.

No one has the answers. No one will ever have the answers if frightened people shut off the spiggot of investigation.

[Moochy]

82. Don't bother him with questions, he wants answers

My Patriotism(blinders) prevent me from considering that our government might be involved.

Once NYT has published something about it, I'll start paying attention. :sarcasm:

Until then Snark on...

[shance]

You have a point there.

Like the name "moochy" btw.

It's a goodun.

:)

[brentspeak]

210. I agree with Kos. It makes his website look like Roswell Central

His goal overall is to fight the Republicans and promote the Democrats. It's hard to do that when the angry conspiracy left-wingers are driving away the garden-variety Democrats.

[seemslikeadream]

235. Have you ever read the name of this site you post on?

Are you sure you're at the right place?

This is the Democratic UNDERGROUND

[bloom]

144. and yet people can talk about other theories without evidence?

what's up with that?

[geek tragedy]

147. What theories? eom

[bloom]

166. Nearly any idea about who might have been responsible

for the London bombing.

Most - if not all - just speculation at this point.

[The Magistrate]

236. Well Said, Mr. Tragedy

There is no evidence whatever behind these assertions; they cannot be taken seriously, and the people who make them cannot homestly expect that they be taken seriously.

[Frederik]

295. There is exactly the same amount of evidence

behind those theories as there is behind the theory that "al-Qaida" perpetrated Thursday's attck. That is to say, zero. Following your logic, anyone who might suggest the involvement of "al-Qaida" cannot homestly expect that they be taken seriously.

[Pepperbelly]

316. what evidence is there implicating ANYONE?

What IS the mainstream "truth" in this matter?

[NoPasaran]

One man's fantasy is anothers reality? No!

Reality has an objective existence external to human perception. If one claims to live on some plane of fantasy, one is delusional, divorced from reality, not existing in some alternate version of it.

[geek tragedy]

110. As someone once said, folks are entitled to their own thoughts, but not

their own facts.

[TruthIsAll]

224. Hey Geek, point out a solitary instance when Bushco told the truth.

Go ahead. Just ONE statement from Bush which did NOT turn out to be misleading at best.

Why then would you believe anything they say now?

FIVE YEARS OF LIES.
FIVE YEARS OF CONSPIRACIES TO COVER THEM UP.

[geek tragedy]

310. I could find something about him mentioning that the sun rises in the East

but then you'd just cook up bogus statistical "proof" to the contrary.

[TruthIsAll]

331. Very funny. Now ....answer the question.

/

[TheWatcher]

337. Self Delete

[shance]

120. Yes Pasarean, yes it is. There is no either or as you perhaps suggest.

You are coming from a literal point of view which is correct as well.

In addition, to make the point of this thread come full circle. Your suggestion is an opinion, a statement of your belief just like mine.

Neither of us are right and/or wrong. What you said is very true in a literal context. Mine in a more figurative, generalized sense.

Again, the definition of fantasy is in and of itself vague, not an absolute as you seemed to be pointing out with your statement.

[leesa]

223. His point is that he accepts the government sanctioned rationale without

question and we should too. There are many questions to be asked and he is a narrow-minded shill to forbid them.

[quinnox]

32. Although I don't visit that website and consider it crap, on this one they

got it right for once. Maybe DU should crack down as well.

[shance]

44. That's right. Maybe we should start installing mind chips in every DUer?

That'll shut of that alternative opinion you apparently dislike so much.

[wyldwolf]

52. I would just settle for...

..a general policy against groundless claims and accusations - giving those given to making such posts a time frame to provide evidence or the post gets deleted.

[JohnnyBoots]

55. How about a separate forum, that way it is contained and

if you don't like it you don't have to visit there.

[wyldwolf]

65. sure... a tinfoil hat wild conspiracy theory forum

...with a disclaimer that says: The OPINIONS here in no way represent the owners of DU, the DNC, or rank-and-file Democrats. This is the cellar where we keep our strange cousin.

[geek tragedy]

67. We already have a conspiracy loon ghetto. It's littered with far-right

and racist propaganda.

Further proof that idiocy, even when done by leftists, is indeed a rightwing value.

[JohnnyBoots]

71. Why such an angry tone?

[Moochy]

81. Angry Pooh Poohing

Constipation? they have so much fun pooh poohing.
:hurts: though that smiley doesnt look like he's having fun.

[wyldwolf]

76. where it be??

[JohnnyBoots]

80. Sorry, I ment in general

[wyldwolf]

83. huh? I asked where the "getto" mentioned was

[JohnnyBoots]

87. Placing people in imposed ghettos doesn't sound good....

[wyldwolf]

89. dude, follow the thread

Someone said we already have one. I asked where???

[geek tragedy]

90. Here's the link to Tinfoil Central:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

[wyldwolf]

95. heh! I've never visited that forum

Does it also include the Wes Clark "man breasts" theories, the Bush/Kerry "Skull and Bones" plan for world dominations theories, etc.?

[geek tragedy]

98. They talk about holograms and wonder what actually hit the Pentagon.

So yeah, that kind of stuff.

[TheWatcher]

268. There You Go AGAIN

Must we go through another round of what really happened on 9/11?

Sorry GT, the Official Story is the most implauable and idiodic "theory" of them all.

You've never, ever, not once been able to provide ANYTHING, no facts, nothing, NOT ONE ITOTA RESEMBLING A FACT that disproves LIHOP or MIHOP.

NO ONE has EVER been able to prove the Official Story.

So once again, I challenge you to do so.

And again, you will have nothing.

As for the tragedy in London, there is no conclusive evidence as to what happened yet.

EVERYTHING is just specualtion at this point.

[hang a left]

273. you geek, go home, n-frickin-t

[seemslikeadream]

77. Be a man and name the people you're trashing

[geek tragedy]

85. I'm just stating a fact--that the 911 forum contains dozens upon dozens

of posts that cite racist, far-right, and Neo-Nazi websites as sources of information.

Just try doing a search in that forum for:

tbrnews.com
serendipity.li
americanfreepress
thetruthseeker.co.uk
kaminski
vialls
rense

[shance]

124. There is not one statement of fact in your post. Just simplistic opinion

No facts.

Let's be clear.

[geek tragedy]

129. You apparently don't know the difference between factual and opinion-based

claims.

It is a FACT that there are dozens upon dozens of right-wing, racist, and Holocaust-denying websites that have been cited in the 911 forum.

You are not free to disagree with that statement, because it is not a matter of opinion.

Do a search for:

thetruthseeker.co.uk
tbrnews.com
americanfreepress
vialls
kaminski
rense
serendipity.li

in that forum. Those individuals and sites are all far-right, Jew-hating racist goatfuckers. And one can find an appalling number of their articles posted in the 911 forum.

[uncle ray]

229. that's seven

dozens upon dozens would be at least 48.

[geek tragedy]

311. Seven different sites and sources quoted dozens of times.

And that's not even counting other sites like whatreallyhappened et al.

[Frederik]

296. There might be some that occasionally post from

the sites you list, but there is certainly serious and informed discussion going on there at times as well. Paul Thompson posts there, and outside of intelligence agencies, I don't think you'll find anyone who has a more extensive knowledge about the events of September 11 and about the various individuals that have been connected with the attack and with al-Qaida in general.

[NMDemDist2]

291. As a Moderator I wanted to weigh in on this "hate site" issue. We

regularly remove any links to these sites when we see them or we are alerted to their presence.

With literally thousands of posts on DU daily, some will undeniably be missed.

We appreciate our members assistance in these matters. If you see such a link please alert the Moderators and we will take immediate action to remove them.

Thank you.

[geek tragedy]

313. Not faulting you guys. Abusive junk will be able to fly under the

radar on a site this big--it's a credit to your efforts that there isn't more of that crap.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

86. wrong..

THIS is a website that you can classify as a "conspiracy loon ghetto", and they like it that way.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/bbs/default.php


Enjoy!

[wyldwolf]

92. KATIE HOLMES - ENSLAVED!!!

[Chicago Democrat]

214. Brainwashed and probed by aliens

With giant probiscus'

[baby_mouse]

252. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

:rofl:

What an excellent site! I'm joining!!!!

[Moochy]

91. Moderate Centrist Propaganda

I think I see what a centrist moderate propaganda would look like now. thanks.

[wyldwolf]

93. where?

[Moochy]

101. your sig has some

All over your sig? Your links on David Sirota's Nation article, which I respectfully disagree with.

Moderate propaganda would seem to be mostly poll-driven and not ideology based.

[wyldwolf]

112. oh really?

So, Sirota writes an article and it shown by not one but two writers to contain factual inaccuracies, and to point that out is "moderate propaganda?"

ok...

Your post sound like what the right often does. They don't deny things, they just label it propaganda and insist it shouldn't be said.

[JohnnyBoots]

114. Polls are the basis for it isn't it?

[geek tragedy]

96. Well, I consider people who reject Neo-Nazi propaganda as honest

and sane.

But you're free to disagree.

[Moochy]

111. Woo race baited

And there we have it.

[geek tragedy]

121. It's a matter of plain fact that the 911 forum has a very large number

of posts that cite racist, anti-semitic, Holocaust-denying, far-right, Neo-Nazi sources as support for the various tinfoil fantasies that people push in there.


Why 911 conspiracy theorists are disproportionately members of the far right I leave to your explanation.

[Moochy]

125. I reject Neo Nazi Propaganda

I have seen plenty of that stuff on the sites that are set up by neo-nazis and online anti-semites. Please dont broad brush everyone who questions the official theory of 911 as anti-semites.

Your implication that I dont have to reject it is why im pissed at your posting.

[geek tragedy]

132. The point is that the wide acceptance that far-right sources

have in CT circles indicates that the movement is founded upon a disregard for the rules of logic and reasoning.

People who are interested in the truth don't go looking for it at Rense.

I commend you for your willingness to condemn the Neo-Nazis who try to infiltrate the skeptics' movement. However, they have had FAR too much success to avoid negative reflections upon the entire movement.

[TheWatcher]

270. Why 911 conspiracy theorists are disproportionately members of the far rig

You have no conclusive evidence of this either.

Just more of your boad brushed generalism we've come to know and laugh at.

[Lithos]

292. Ms. Tragedy

You should use the alert system whenever you see a source you feel is from a bigoted source. The moderators are dependent on users to help identify such things.

Lithos

[geek tragedy]

314. And I do--as those who have read my countless alerts can attest.

Just pointing out that certain topics tend to bring out such inappropriate references more than others. It would not be reasonable to expect any moderator or team of moderators to sniff out all of the junk that people throw at this site.

And that's Mr. Tragedy to you. ;)

[NMDemDist2]

293. As a Moderator I wanted to weigh in on this "hate site" issue. We

regularly remove any links to these sites when we see them or we are alerted to their presence.

With literally thousands of posts on DU daily, some will undeniably be missed.

We appreciate our members assistance in these matters. If you see such a link please alert the Moderators and we will take immediate action to remove them.

Thank you.

[Frederik]

298. You are wrong

911 conspiracy theorists are not disproportionately members of the far right, if by conspiracy theory you mean people who are aware of the countless inconsictencies, anomalies and outright lies of the official story as presented in the 9/11 Commission report.

[geek tragedy]

312. Then why do so many of those sites wind up being cited in the

conspiracy theory forum?

Why do propagandists from The American Free Press get speaking gigs at skeptics' conferences?

[Old and In the Way]

128. Do you think the Reichstag Fire was an accident?

Was the simulated attack by the Germans on their own radio station near Gleiwitz on the Polish border, the incident that triggered WW2, a ridiculous conspiracy theory?

How about Prescott Bush supporting Krupp Industries and trading with the enemy during WW2?

Were those groundless conspiracies? Would you have trashed those people questioning those events back then as loonies?

Or are you just selective in your conspiracy theories?

[geek tragedy]

134. There's evidence for all of those. It's not asking too much to demand

that people making outlandish claims provide at least prima facie proof of their claims.

[Old and In the Way]

149. Thing is, those truths were not in vogue while Hitler was running the show

If you think you know the truth about 9/11 while Bush and the Republicans are controlling the government, you are being naive.

[geek tragedy]

154. I don't trust Bush at all. But there is no evidence for the silly MIHOP

theories.

I fully believe that Bush dropped the ball on 911 because he surrounds himself with incompetent boobs--the same kind of people who thought we'd be greeted with flowers in Iraq. Of course he's not going to be forthcoming--otherwise he'd be held accountable for his horrible negligence.

[JohnnyBoots]

163. That is a lot of incompetence

[geek tragedy]

168. Iraq alone shows that these boobs are capable of unlimited incompetence.

[JohnnyBoots]

175. I think it is more hubris than incompetence

[geek tragedy]

179. Hubris is a form of imcompetence. eom

[JohnnyBoots]

183. Excessive pride and incompetence the same thing, I guess

it could be more or less.

[drdtroit]

290. Planned chaos ...

Everything is right on track in Iraq.

[Old and In the Way]

167. So incompetence that leads directly to the deaths of 3000 Americans

yet no one is held accountable.....no impeachment, no firings, demotions, nothing. Hmmmm. Do you think there is a conspiracy to not try him for manslaughter?

Lies on the Causus Belli to invade/occupy Iraq.....no impeachment, no firings, demotions, nothing. Hmmmm. Do you think there is a conspiracy to not try him as a war criminal?

[JohnnyBoots]

169. Tennet got a medal for that incompetency

[geek tragedy]

173. The Dems were gutless--they should have demanded accountability

But, they didn't want to be 'divisive.'

:puke:

[Old and In the Way]

189. Anthrax will do that to you.

Whooops! Another conspiracy theory.

[drdtroit]

294. You got that one right! n/t

[Moochy]

181. No such thing as a conspiracy

Silly conspiracy theorist! pshaw.

Cui bono? you conspiracy theorist.. they are just opportunistic.

Great points btw, in case i didn't lay on the :sarcasm: thick enough.

[Moochy]

177. Vigilant Guardian

So you deny that there were any secret wargames on 911?
Apparently you have access to the redacted section of the 911 commission report?

The war games on 911 had the goal of: (choose one, or more)

a) providing cover for plausible deniablity of the stand-down order

b) catching the terrorists ? and they let one happen, stop the rest.

c) ostensibly training the military in anticipation of the attack that allies warned us was coming? but not exactly when?

d) gumming up the air defense system

http://www.newsociety.com/titleimages/rub_war.pdf

[TheWatcher]

276. And just what DID happen on 9/11 GT?

The Official Story? Pray tell, Enlighten us once again with ALL the links and documents that support what you think really happened.

[drdtroit]

289. I think that is exactly what they want people to believe.

It maintains an atmosphere of non liability on their part. And the people who support them are either making so much damn money they don't care, or they are you garden variety of 'sheeple' whose lobotomizing has been completed.

[Frederik]

340. A question to you, Mr Tragedy

Do you really believe the anthrax letters were sent by a "lone disgruntled biowarfare specialist" who wanted to "make people aware of the threat of bioterrorism"? Even though the Federation of American Scientists' report concluded that there were probably more than one person involved, and that the preparations probably started before 9/11?

The American biowarfare milieu can't be all that large. Why did the FBI end it's investigation without making any arrests or having any suspects?

I suppose it is of no significance that among the recipients were Senators Daschle and Leahey, who were the most sceptical voices in the Senate to the Patriot Act (until they received the letters), as well as Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw.

I mean, since we're talking about silly "mihop" theories for which there is no evidence.

[geek tragedy]

347. I'm agnostic on the anthrax letters. My suspicion is that it's

a rightwinger who was connected with the United States WMD programs.

[TheWatcher]

271. I agree with you

"There's evidence for all of those. It's not asking too much to demand that people making outlandish claims provide at least prima facie proof of their claims."

The Government should be forced to prove the Official Story of 9/11.

Do you disagree?

[Old and In the Way]

108. Here's blast from the past......Balogna, Italy, 1985

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=46709&mesg_id=46709

Back then it was the LW commies....today it's those fundie ME people....tomorrow ????

[erpowers]

225. What Doest It Mean

What does BFEE stand for?

[Old and In the Way]

227. Bush Family Evil Empire

Profiteering in war since 1914.

See here: http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/BFEE

[drdtroit]

286. Where might that be? n/t

[Frederik]

297. So speculation without evidence

should not be allowed, in your opinion?

[wyldwolf]

365. I didn't say that

I said "groundless claims and accusations."

HUGE difference between "speculations" and "claims," don't you agree?

Claim: To state to be true, especially when open to question...

Speculation: A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture. Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. YAY!!! AWESOME!!!

Great fucking stuff, Kos. At some point the loonies have to be shown the door if anyone expects to get serious work done. Let them start their own loony blog where they can fellate their bizarre members in relative seclusion.

[springhill]

59. Well isn't that just special?

I am one of those nutty, out of touch with reality people you seem to pooh pooh. And to think that I thought I could express my thoughts to the DU family. I thought it was the only place where I could really let it all hang out and not be worried about the responses (as with friends, family).

Very disheartening, indeed. Gee, I wonder how Iran-Contra would have gone over on this board? Just a wild-eyed conspiracy thoery is how I'm thinking it might have been judged. I mean our government certainly can't be capable of drug-running? Yea, right.

And please, someone explain to me something I have never understood. If Osama was really the mastermind behing 911, why in the world did Bush say he was not concerned about him anymore. I mean, come on, if he really was responsible for up to 3,000 deaths, there is no way in hell he would be put on the back burner for a war in Iraq.

[Moochy]

69. Disheartening indeed

I've read that the "real" reason were not going after OBL, is that they have a tacit agreement with Musharraf to not go after him.

They claim that spec ops & whatnot are respecting Pakistans' national integrity. I beleive it was Woolsey on CNN a few weeks ago who intimated that Musharraff would have a popular uprising if Bin Laden was caught in that "no-man's" zone near the Afghan border.

You see, the argument goes, his government will fall to extremists who will demand a theocratic fundamentalist state. And they'll have nukes. :nuke:

So, yeah damned if you catch him (not) and damned if you dont? (not really, since Al Zarqawi is the villain du jour.)

It makes me wonder about the christian dominionists long term plan, you know for jesus-land on earth?

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. Actually, Iran-Contra always made perfect sense to me

Sorry to disappoint.

As for acceptance on this board, you are accepted here, even by me. The rules of this board don't preclude ridiculous conspiracy theorizing, so open arms, really. You should not expect, however, that everyone agrees, or even finds many of the zanier points even remotely plausible, and if they think a point is kooky, they get to say that too. Open arms, then, never meant automatic acceptance.

Why would Bush say he wasn't concerned? Two reasons: 1) Because Bush is a fucking idiot. 2) Because the persistent at-large-dom of Osama bin Laden is an embarrassment to his administration, so he has been trying to downplay it. Pretty simple explanations, none of which require that forces within the Bush administration caused 9/11 (by anything more than their own deep incompetence).

[shance]

107. Am so glad to hear that Iran/Contra 'resonated' with you.

And Im equally grateful to know that you like a few others have all the answers for us mere truth seekers, that we should just come to you guys. Who needs facts when there are those like you to tell us everything that happened!

[seemslikeadream]

115. I hear Fawn Hall is lookin' for a new pair of boots

[alcibiades_mystery]

161. Truth seeking is one thing

Deranged fantasy spinning is another. And you don't need me to regulate your kooky theories. rely on common sense alone, and you'll be A-OK, kay?

[leesa]

220. Yes. Let's all swallow the Neocon crap about Muslim terrorists hook, line

and sinker once again! Just like after 9-11.

[TheWatcher]

281. OH YEAH!

[Frederik]

299. Yes, applying those standards

the loony CT of Bush & Blair fixing the WMD intelligence around the policy would never have been suggested.

[whatever4]

38. I've gone from polite to "nutty" again

Sorry, these posts are starting to strike a nerve.

Do we or do we not have the nuttiest, most corrupt government in recent history? Have we, or have we not, witnessed some of the most insane legislation, the most blatant acts of greed, mismanagement, bullying, possibly spying...need I go on?

Please keep in mind that the reality of our political situation is insane.

And due to the fact that we are facing that extreme, I'd appreciate it if those less suspicious could perhaps not become too upset when some of us mull over the possible *other* ways in which this government of ours might be misbehaving, these nasty neocon thugs in charge. Sometimes it very much IS a case of dreaming up what someone might do, how they might do it, or why, when dealing with opposition. Isn't this a valid point? I don't mean to be difficult. I believe we have to out think these monsters, and think it's correct to call them monsters. What they have done and allowed to be done is monstrous.

It's not as if there is a disagreement here as to the nature of this administration; they're bad. It's not as if it isn't very close to a definition of a conspiracy right now. Whether they bombed anyone or not. If they truly offered up the name of a cia spy to achieve a minor political victory of intimidating a man complaining about the lack of WMD, isn't that itself indications of an administration covering for a man who basically committed treason? That's starting to sound like a conspiracy to me.

Ban away, if you think it's a good idea. I'm FAR more worried about what happens if there's any truth to rumors than I am worried about being disappointed if they're completely baseless. I won't be disappointed at all. I hope I'm a big idiot on the subject, that would be fine.

[Frederik]

300. An excellent post, Whatever

[whatever4]

307. Thanks! :)

And it goes without saying, I mean it sincerely. I want to be wrong. But I'm not convinced I am. Until then, I'm taking a VERY dim view of anyone that sees the need to put me or my views down.

Hell, I can get that from any garden variety neocon without even trying; why deal with it here??

[Frederik]

341. Latest on the investigation in London

The police is suspecting "white caucasian" bombers. But if you dare suspect anyone other than "al-Qaida", you're a loon according to some.

"Police and intelligence agents are investigating the theory that a gang of white "mercenary terrorists" was hired by al-Qa'ida to carry out last week's devastating attacks on London."

"Among new revelations about the highly sophisticated nature of Thursday's attacks, intelligence officials disclosed that they were examining the prospect that so-called "clean skins" - who could have been Muslims from the Balkans with no previous links to terror groups - were recruited to evade heightened security in the capital.

The theory was given credence by the fact that the security services had no advance warnings, suggesting that the bombers were not known extremists. Police and intelligence agencies admitted yesterday they were caught off guard."

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298105.ece

[JohnnyBoots]

63. I am fairly new here, was there this much of a

rift after 911? Or is this a new phenomenon?

[shance]

88. Things get pretty lively around here from time to time.

Glad you're here JB***

[JackRiddler]

405. After 9/11...

In the months after 9/11, DU was abuzz with research on what happened. Many of the breakthrough items in 9/11 research were first disseminated here. "LIHOP" was invented here.

People were for the most part excited about it. Polls showed overwhelming numbers supporting some variation of "inside job," and I'm sure the next poll will show the same.

That was back when DU was really something like "the Underground."

From the 2002 election forward, the "centrist" (collaborationist) forces and high command of the Democratic party discovered the power of this site and other places like it. The success of Dean made it all the more obvious what could be accomplished via the Internet.

Increasingly, a lunatic fringe of Party Über Alles fanatics have been attacking the most original and interesting aspects of this site as "conspiracy theory" and trying to shut down discussions with the sort of generalized ad hominem name-calling talking points repetititions filling up this thread.

If anyone thinks there's "no evidence" for 9/11 inside job (which is the central "conspiracy theory" at the moment and implicitly in this discussion) it's only because they are too busy sneering to even read it.

Go here:

www.Justicefor911.org

Later!

[Old and In the Way]

74. Would the fact that no WH reporter has asked a question about

Rove's outing of a CIA NOC at a WH briefing qualify as a conspiracy theory?

Would Iran-Contra be considered a government conspiracy?

Gee Kos, if there were no conspiracies for keeping information from the public, why are blogs and the internet such a popular place for information?

Would elections using machines controlled by supporters of one party be suspectible to rigging? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

How about that 9/11 Whitewash Commission?

Would this administration's actions qualify, in general terms, as a conspiracy against the best interests of the US?

He can do whatever he wants with his site, but purging people who are interested in learning the truth seems a bit self-defeating. Perhaps Kos is more interested in being viewed as 'legitimate' in the eyes of the corporate media.....and that's the price for entry into the club.

[Jose Diablo]

359. Ah yes, corporate money buying into KOS

Thats a good motive for whoever it is that runs KOS, for sure. If the corporation/globalists cannot control it (internet blogging) then they buy it. But it's his/her site, he/she can do what they want. I doubt they will get as many hits after the purge though, sort of self-defeating, purging I mean, if ad money is the object.

Thats one thing I like about DU. DU depends on money from the users, not ad pop-ups and whatnot. Reminds me, I need to make a contribution, soon.

Just like the the new vision for governance people, cannot control it, buy the politicos. It's the tried and true method to steal a government. Just look at South America to see how its done. I am sure though there are many that will just call that a silly CT also. But if you ask the Bolivians, they know exactly what it's all about and how it's done.

But thats just another silly CT without any basis in 'facts', whatever 'facts' mean in this age of corporate media. As for reality based testing of CT, how can this be done when practically everything is classed secret by the government? So much for relying on 'facts'.

BTW, good post OITW.

[TankLV]

104. Well, I'd take our "tinfoil hat" theories over their proven LIES anyday!

And so far, us "tinfoilers" are batting pretty much 1000.

Right about WMD

Right about BUSH* CRIMINALS pushing Iraq and WMD for POLITICAL PURPOSES WITH NO EVIDENCDE!

Right about US approved and sanction of Torture of POW's

I could go on, but, so far, every fucking horrible thing we've believed about this gang of CRIMINALS in OUR White House has been proven TRUE!

But it's OK to ignor REALITY as opposed to KOS FANTASY WORLD!

Of course, bushco always tell the truth and never "mistates", let alone "lies", right?

Maybe they are purging them because they are getting awfully close to the truth? - a truth that makes many people understandibly uncomfortable?

They must be hitting a real raw nerve - otherwise the tinfoilers would be laughed off - but to have to ban them - hmmm - creates it's own tinfoil hat theory!

Watch out for cornered animals - that's when they become the most dangerous.

First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Etc.

[geek tragedy]

139. No, Kos is pointing out that we were right about those issues BECAUSE

we demanded proof and logic and evidence.

There is less proof that the US and British did 911 and the London bombings than there was that Saddam had WMD's.

[Terran1212]

105. Totally wrong for him to do that : WHY

Governments have a long history of secrets, coverups, and all out backdoor conspiracy. SOMEONE needs to think about these things. Can you say our government lying to us through 5 presidents on Vietnam?

[seemslikeadream]

106. Please post topics DU members believe shouldn't be discussed at DU

I'll start

Irish Potato Famine

[shance]

136. Well SLAD you beat me to the punch again.

I think it's pretty safe to say there is no topic more controversial and inflammatory here at DU than the hot potato famine.

I personally wouldn't 'touch' it....

[seemslikeadream]

141. I will spend 24/7 following you around to make sure

so watch yourself, cause I'm watching you

http://www.artlex.com.nyud.net:8090/ArtLex/p/images/propgnda.groh.lg.jpg

[Guaranteed]

118. I think these things go in cycles. Maybe 18 months ago

the centrists were controlling DU. After the election, the site moved to the left (which needed to happen). But, then it went too far...

In the past few of months, there's just been too much nuttiness here. I guess Kos was seeing it, too. But it's always gonna go like that, one way or the other. The pendulum swings. I'll probably always think DU is either too centrist and complacent or too crazy leftist.

[bloom]

156. really?

"the site moved to the left.... But, then it went too far..."


I thought if anything - there are too many centrists and an awful lot of trolls.

[Guaranteed]

Still?

Even though most of the centrists have left, seemingly?

18 months ago there was a much stronger pull from the center to fight against. Now the pull is coming from the other direction, and we're losing balance again.

I'd say about the best two months of DU that I've seen, and it's just my opinion, was around January and February of this year.

[bloom]

178. It doesn't seem to me

that they left - and if some did - it seems like more mainstream types of people have filled in. Which I think is bound to happen as DU is more in the mainstream news, etc.

I would hope that enough people on the left stay to articulate the problems/viewpoints.

[Guaranteed]

186. Having more mainstream people here could do our country,

and DU, a lot of good.

[bloom]

188. If DU just repeats

what the mainstream media says - it isn't doing anything.

[Guaranteed]

372. That would never happen. For one, the MSM is Republican.

For two, people here actually think and look for new angles and ideas on issues. Third, in any case we have to address the issues in the MSM, and give them our own spin. Fourth, "mainstream people" are not the MSM. A good portion of them understand exactly what is going on in this country. A little commingling with those who feel left out might do both some good.

[uncle ray]

233. then the name of this site shoud be Democratic Mainstream.

but it's not. the name is Democratic Underground. to me that certainly inplies anything but supporting the mainstream opinion.

[Guaranteed]

373. This site is here to support Democrats and Democratic ideas.

I'm pretty sure that the Democrats WANT to be part of the mainstream- don't we want to get control of the House, Senate and WH back?

Or are we trying to sink our own ship?

[geek tragedy]

378. If the site is going to call itself DEMOCRATIC underground, it sure

as hell should be grounded in what real, actual Democrats think. The CT'ers are not a significant constituency in the Democratic party.

:toast:

[formernaderite]

122. It's a private site...

he can obviously do as he wishes. Now a repub capitalist would see a niche available for promoting a kooky conspiratory website, for all the banned folks.

[shance]

148. Since when did Kos become a "private" site?

What is a "private site" exactly?

So, why then, does Kos have a interactionary site? Why does he bother to invite poster input and "progressive/Democratic" participation, when oh wait, only when HE agrees with what they're writing. THAT's right.

The kooky conspiracy website would best serve those who are thinking of every possible way to stop others and themselves from viewing the facts and the truth, whatever that may or may not be. No one has a copyright on the truth. To suggest as some are trying to do these days is behaving in exactly the same way as those in the White House and those others in the media they are so quick to criticize. If they want fantasy and kooky conspiracy theories like those in the White House have our best interests at heart, they would be best suited to be shown wall to wall Arnold Schwarzenegger movies.

[geek tragedy]

150. His money, his site. eom

[shance]

171. Yes, but his site certainly has depended on public interaction and

interplay.

He does have the right to do with his site whatever essentially, however he is increasingly showing his true colors and his penchant for a Kos monarchy.

His choice, but people are becoming aware of the not so attractive, exclusionary, bigotted tone. (See the above post about Kos's sanctimonious feminist thoughts)

[formernaderite]

184. He owns the site doesn't he?

This site that we're on is also a private site....the owners can see fit to change the rules as they wish.

[Minstrel Boy]

130. Hey Geek, I'm curious:

Ever heard of Operation Gladio? ("A decades-long covert campaign of terrorism and deceit directed by the intelligence services of the West -- against their own populations. Hundreds of innocent people were killed or maimed in terrorist attacks -- on train stations, supermarkets, cafes and offices -- which were then blamed on 'leftist subversives' or other political opponents.")

Ever heard of the "Strategy of Tension"? ("The name given to the collusion between parts of the Italian state, fascist terrorists and provocateurs in the 1970s" that resulted in acts like the Bologna train bombing, pinned on the Red Brigade patsies to discredit the Italian Left?)

I wonder, did you know that Michael Ledeen was an advisor to Italian military police when its fascist elements were blowing shit up and blaming the Left?

I wonder, did you know, right now, there is a major spy scandal in Italy, as secret, Gladio-type links are uncovered in the country's counter-terrorism units? ("Up to 200 police officers and former intelligence operatives are being investigated by Italian magistrates on charges of organising an illegal "parallel" police force to combat terrorism....its accused commanders Gaetano Saya and Riccardo Sindaco, both with links with the Italian far right.")

From sworn testimony by Gladio agent Vincenzo Vinciguerra:

"You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force ... the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security."

Do you know and understand any of this history? This living history? Because it doesn't sound much like the world you seem acquainted with. It sounds, I dunno - conspiratorial. A state's security apparatus participating in the bombing of its own citizens? Unheard of! Well, to you, perhaps.

Help me out - are these just phantasms percolating under my tinfoil hat? I'd really appreciate your imput.

[Old and In the Way]

143. You're being silly MB...this is simply another kooky conspiracy

theory. Like the Reichstag Fire, like the simulated attack on the radio station that lit off WW2, like the Gulf of Tonkin incident against the USS Maddox. All wild-eyed conspiracies!

[geek tragedy]

145. Gladio was a "stay behind" operation put in place much like

Saddam set up his insurgency to create havoc after the US invasion.

Some of its cells did wind up getting into terrorism, but there's no evidence that they were directed by NATO instead of launching wildcat strikes. Given the type of characters who would have been attracted towards being anti-Communist insurgents, such a possibility should have been foreseen.

[Minstrel Boy]

159. "no evidence they were directed by NATO"

Should I assume, since you apparently have mastery of the evidence, you've read Ganser's book and have dismissed it?

NATO's Secret Armies: Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe.

[geek tragedy]

170. To clarify, there's no evidence that NATO was directing the terrorist

operations. Of course NATO was supervising the stay behind operation itself.

[Minstrel Boy]

180. So the false flag, fascist terror campaign to discredit the Italian Left,

waged by admitted NATO and CIA proxies, had nothing whatsoever to do with the agenda of their international patrons?

Genser:

"During the Cold War, the national military secret services in the countries of Western Europe differed greatly in what they perceived to be an emergency situation. But there was agreement between the military secret services of the United States and of Western Europe that communist parties, and to some degree also socialist parties, had a real potential to weaken NATO from within and therefore represented a threat to the alliance. If they gained political strength and entered the executive, or, worse still, gained control of defense ministries, an emergency situation would result. The evidence now available suggests that in some countries the secret stay-behind armies linked up with right-wing terrorists and carried out terror attacks that were later wrongly blamed on the political left in order to discredit the communists and prevent them from assuming top executive positions."

Before you accuse others of living in a fantasy world, please ponder your own willing suspension of disbelief.

[geek tragedy]

185. As I said, wildcat operations. Given the shady characters involved,

it's hardly a remarkable proposition.

[Minstrel Boy]

187. And you don't think Intelligence services have use for

"wildcat operations"?

The words Plausible Deniability mean anything to you?

[Minstrel Boy]

172. Italian secret police confirmed NATO and CIA had been running Gladio

Ganser:

"After the Cold War had ended, then Italian prime minister Giulio Andreotti confirmed to the Italian Senate in August 1990 that Italy had had a secret stay-behind army, codenamed Gladio – the sword. A document dated 1 June 1959 from the Italian military secret service, SIFAR, revealed that SIFAR had been running the secret army with the support of NATO and in close collaboration with the US secret service, the CIA. Suggesting that the secret army might have linked up with right-wing organizations such as Ordine Nuovo and Avanguardia Nazionale to engage in domestic terror, the Italian Senate, amid public protests, decided in 1990 that Gladio was beyond democratic control and therefore had to be closed down."

[LibertyorDeath]

217. Thanks for all the great info you provide

An open mind is always a refreshing thing.

Nothing like taking them off at the knees with the REALITY
of the crimes committed by Intelligence services against those they have sworn to protect.

Many people refuse to believe this type of evil exists. They see the state as benevolent. They could literally sit in on a meeting where this kind of black ops covert action was being planned & they would still refuse to believe it.

I was taught me to question everything.
It has served me well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=46709&mesg_id=46709

[adolfo]

160. Great work

Very interesting

[seemslikeadream]

151. THE DREAM POLICE

Words and music by rick nielsen

The dream police, they live inside of my head.
The dream police, they come to me in my bed.
The dream police, they’re coming to arrest me, oh no.

You know that talk is cheap, and those rumors ain’t nice.
And when I fall asleep I don’t think I’ll survive the night, the night.

’cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.

The dream police, they live inside of my head.
(live inside of my head.)
The dream police, they come to me in my bed.
(come to me in my bed.)
The dream police, they’re coming to arrest me, oh no.

Well, I can’t tell lies, ’cause they’re listening to me.
And when I fall asleep, bet they’re spying on me tonight, tonight.

’cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.

I try to sleep, they’re wide awake, they won’t leave me alone.
They don’t get paid to take vacations, or let me alone.
They spy on me, I try to hide, they won’t let me alone.
They persecute me, they’re the judge and jury all in one.

’cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.

The dream police, they live inside of my head.
The dream police, they come to me in my bed.
The dream police, they’re coming to arrest me.

[zulchzulu]

158. Why not ban the "PNAC is Evil" crowd too while you're at it, Kos

How dare we think that PNAC had anything to do with avoiding warnings pre-911 and letting that event happen....yeah, they said they needed a "new Pearl Harbor" to get the public to go for an Iraq attack...but these are men who are Americans and who have served in some of America's finest and most successful corporations that make products to protect people like little Jimmy, a young lad in Cleveland with a mild cough and his poor sweet momma.

:sarcasm:

[seemslikeadream]

164. Oh DU has one of those too DO NOT GO THERE!

I'm warning you, you will read things you shouldn't be reading

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=307

[KoKo]

193. Yep...you said it....

PNAC is NOT part of a "Reality Based Community." It's only folks who are anti-Semitic who think that PNAC is a problem.

:rofl:

[fujiyama]

165. I can't say I blame him

I have a high tolerance as well for nutty posts, but after a certain point, it gets tiresome - and it makes forums unreadable and a pain to navigate.

The 9/11 forum is a great example. Among some on the left there is an unwillingness to admit that Islamist terrorism even exists - and instead that every terrorist attack taken place during the last few years was done by this administration.

This administration is undoubtably evil, but that doesn't mean they are the only evil ones in this world.

[Old and In the Way]

176. Why not take care of the evil in our own backyard 1st, before trying to

fix the rest of the world's evils?

[JohnnyBoots]

182. Are there any real checks and balances when

it comes to the Admin. and for that matter the MSM? Seems like everything is unquestioned,which I think is what I had rolling around in my head to begin with.

[Minstrel Boy]

190. Gee, then I guess KOS won't want to hear this:

Shades of 9/11, there were simultaneous exercises in the London subway, at the identical stations, at the exact time of the blasts:


On a BBC Radio 5 interview that aired on the evening of the 7th, the host interviewed Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants, which bills itself as a 'crisis management' advice company, better known to you and I as a PR firm. Peter Power was a former Scotland Yard official, working at one time with the Anti Terrorist Branch.

Power told the host that at the exact same time that the London bombings were taking place, his company was running a 1,000 person strong exercise which drilled the London Underground being bombed at the exact same locations, at the exact same times, as happened in real life.


POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.

HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?

POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they'd met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision that this is the real one and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from slow time to quick time thinking and so on.

Yes, I know - omigod, the link is to "Prisonplanet"! - but the original source is the BBC, and its clip can be heard here.

[JohnnyBoots]

208. Can you put this in LBN with BBC as the souce, because

the one referng to this has been locked?

[Frederik]

302. At precisely the same railway stations

That's no friggin' coincidence. It could of course indicate that the emergency services have been infiltrated by terrorists, but in that case the infiltrators should be easy to find. And of course there are no news stories on this, just like after 9/11. We don't want to get into that loony stuff do we.

[KoKo]

192. hmmmm.....Kos says his site is a "Realtiy Based Community." Didn't

Ron Suskind say that's what Rove and the Bushies are saying? "We make the "Reality" and you follow what we say is Reality?" (not an exact quote but pretty close.)

I wish Kos had used a better choice of words on this statement. :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

194. Well done, Mr. Kos!

If only DU could do the same!

IMO, a good percentage of those who spread these whacko conspiracy theories are rightwingers attempting to make the left look bad.

[seemslikeadream]

201. Maybe you should clarify that statement

It sounds like your trashing a good friend of yours

[Minstrel Boy]

202. well done

That's a "tinfoil" halo.

[Walt Starr]

237. Nope, not trashing anybody

except some Freeper disruptors who come on here spewing nutball theories to make us look bad.

IIRC, one outted himself on election night. His pet conspiracy whackdom to spew related to Skull and Bones.

I realize some DUers buy into these things, but rationality requires extraodinary evidence to support extraordianry claims, IMO.

[seemslikeadream]

239. Alright then do you consider Gannon stuff in your nutball theories?

Let's start getting specific and start there

[Walt Starr]

242. Depends upon what Gannon stuff you're talking about

If you're talking about the male hooker stuff, that's been demonstrated quite adequately.

If you're talking about Johnny Gosch, show me the evidence.

[seemslikeadream]

249. That's not the point Walt

We should be able to talk about it. Are you saying it's alright to talk about Johnny Gosch here or not? I'm not out to prove it one way or another in fact I could care less but it should be able to be discussed here without people being trashed for it.

[Walt Starr]

253. Well, I know a lot of Johnny Gosch threads were locked

Discussion is fine. Compilation of evidence is fine, too. Throwing out things that don't even rise to the level of the hypothetical, such as Bush ordered the London terrorist attacks, with nothing to back it up starts getting into the realm of bogus consipracy theories.

If you can present some evidence, great. If you can't, get some, then come back to the topic.

[Old and In the Way]

259. Curious Walt........

You have added Andy to your sig line "One of DU's greatest". I agree.

But Andy was a big proponent of the Franklin Savings/GWH Bush pedophilia scandal. Do you think that was a nutball conspiracy theory?

[Walt Starr]

346. At this point, it is nothing more than a nutball conspiracy theory

Sorry if that puts a damper on your world, but it's a fact. There is nothing to corroborate the extraordinary claim that Guckert is Gosch. Extraordinary claims require exraordinary evidence.

[Old and In the Way]

258. Gannon/Gosch is a perfect example of what makes DU great, IMHO.

I followed those threads, though I didn't contribute a lot.

It started with idle speculation by Andy Stephanson, IIRC, on how Gannon might be tied into the 1989 Washington Times expose that got squashed. A big part of the Gannon threads were trying to locate his past....he seemed to have had a remarkably undocumented one. Along the way, Gannon got tied into an observation that he might be Johnny Gosch. Someone did a morphing picture which looked startling, to me, in the similarity between the two. Once actual research proved that that lead was a dud...it went away. It's like doing science...you create a hypothesis, do experiments, and based on the experiment results you confirm or reject the hypothesis. Perhaps the problem is that the hypothesis and experiments were done in the open? That's too bad if that's the case. The empowering leverage of this site is when you can ask questions and harness the investigative energy of many people to look into the question to prove or disprove it. That one didn't pan out....but what if it had?

IIRC, Gannon's 'exposure' was the result of questions asked over at dKos which eventually led to research that brought his alter ego to the public's attention.

[seemslikeadream]

260. Oooops THERE IT IS!

Thanks Old and In The Way, somebody gets it

[geek tragedy]

315. Contrast that with the people who refuse to believe that Flight 77

hit the Pentagon.

[geek tragedy]

319. There were also many Gannon threads linking to fabrications from

tbrnews.org that talked about Karl Rove and orgies at the White House.

How many times do you think peope posted Voice of the White House crapola here--100? 200?

[Minstrel Boy]

240. Since you mentioned it, you should know

that Andy, "one of DU's greatest," knew that Seventhson - he of the "nutball theories" - had his account hijacked on election night. Andy told me so on the phone.

Seventhson hasn't been allowed back, but Andy believed him.

http://p097.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm7.showMessage?topicID=565.topic

[Walt Starr]

243. This is America where all are free to believe what they choose

If you want to convince me of any theories, show me the evidence.

[LeftCoast]

195. It's about time

Frankly, all the wild accusations and unfounded conspiracy theories on DU have been driving me toward Kos for a while now.

[frictionlessO]

198. So no more talk about PNAC? No more talk about BFEE?

No more talk about the insane amount of coincidences surrounding poppy and lil boots amdins on the ME?

I mean I can understand wanting to tamp down on the London thing as we dont know whats what yet, but I think Kos intends to take it all the way down the path. If so dKos just became another DLC mouthpiece which isn't all that bad except they already have the controls over most of the entire party.

Is Kos going to purge Conyers as well, if he gets to far out there with Election Fraud? Or the DSMs or Gannon or Plame? I know that some DU'ers hate ER&D an dthink it ruins our good name, let me tell you something there is no name to ruin here folks. Even if you are a moderate you are still a subversive gay terrorist america hater. All your nice and long reasonable preambles only confirm it to those you seem so worried about.

I find this so very disenheartening not because of his stated reasoning regarding London (thats understandable), but I get the feeling he wont stop there especially with everyone cheering him on...

In fact the cheering here on this thread just made me realzie that most of you don't like me or believe I help the cause and in fact am detrimental and possibly a freeper. Didn't know I was so unamerican as to make the left abandon me... but then again I cant seem to even see a left anymore.

[bloom]

199. I think it's one of those things

where the people supporting KOS on this are talking the most / the loudest.

But there has been a lot of censorship around here as well. I don't know how many threads that I've tried to post on and had them locked or deleted before it went through lately. I would guess a dozen anyway.

[frictionlessO]

204. See I dont have a problem with the level of censorship here, none, but

what is truly freaking me out is according toi geek tragedy if you even think that LIHOP is a real possibility. You're stupid, an idiot, and completely screwing up any kind of cause we might take on.

I understand that some theory is not meant to be uncorked on this board or I guess any board where the truly smart and reality based dems are is not a place for any CT. I guess Im just a deluded idiot as are a large chunk of my friends here on DU who have been fighting the Election Fraud are just stupid idiots.

I guess its a lot more than just Geek Tragedy as well... seems like a lot of people I thought would help fight this admin are just as bad as about automatically believing what the governement says.

I mean hey, they lied us into what may ultimately become the worst possible kind of response to terror, they may lie to us about Social security, bankruptcy, and homeland security, but they'd never lie about all those nasty things people that I disagree with say they do.

FWIW though GT is right about some of the sourceing in the 9/11 forum, bad stuff.

[geek tragedy]

205. To put it more clearly: We must hold ourselves to the same standards

that we seek to hold our government to.

If you have proof to support your claim, provide it. If you don't have proof, don't claim it.

There is nothing wrong with skepticism--Bush has never accounted for his incompetence and there has been much CYA action going on. However, silly theories like holograms, missile pods, and controlled demolitions indicate a disconnect from reality similar to the "last throes" Neocons.

[frictionlessO]

212. And what do you have as proof? Nothing, because most of it is suspect.

As just about every god damn thing these days is.

9/11 is LIHOP to me because there are so many instances of incompetence that I fail to see it as anything but willfully ignoring the threat. Thus to me they let it happen on purpose. Lets not forget all the wild conspiracy theories over what PNAC ( who you right well know is endorsed by the majority of this administration) has said, or Bush family connections to the house of Saud and Bin Laden, or how poppy LET Saddam do his thing to Kuwait which brought about GW1 and GW2. Thats some of the circumstantial evidence GT....

What about Election Fraud? You think we're all stupid idiots as well?

Im sure Gannon was nothing as well.

Im sure all those "theories" about Rove last year were put forth by "stupid" " idiots".

Suffice it to say if you want us all banished from DU go ahead and start campaigning for it. Start many threads about how we are destroying the credibility of the dems. Please make sure you use "idiot" and "stupid" so we know you are talking about us.

You dont want us in your party thats fine, you dont want to take into account that some of us are absoluetly petrified over what is happening in this country thats fine as well. However understand this... all sources are suspect these days, whether its MSM, Blogs or just some "stupid" "idiot" trying to swim through their own constant information betrayal on a board.

What you have done here is try to call us out by using broad brush strokes, intellectual intimidation, and name calling. Good on ya maybe we will all just run away so you can maintain the status quo while having no empathy for your fellow DU'ers who might have a very personal reason for having that tinfoil. There hass even beeen allusions here in this very thread that we are freepers in disguise... thanks.

Hows this, Im not going anywhere until Skinner bans me and I most certainly hope none of my fellow DUers dont. Even though we are apparently on the same side with people who'd just as soon stick a knife in our backs... thanks for the wake up call! I know I sure needed another one this week.

As far as as skepticism goes yeah I don't buy into holograms, missle pods, demolition of WTC7 and Vapor trails. That is not however all that you were reffing about earlier in this thread at all.

I know it doesnt matter to you in the slightest but this really hurt. You chose one helluva time to post something like this. Why?



edited: to clarify a bit as I am a "stupid" "idiot".

[Old and In the Way]

238. Maybe we can get a special symbol so people will know we are

a "conspiracy kook". Apparently, all questions were answered by the 9/11 Commission, so there's no reason to question anything anymore.

BTW, if I were Republican Op who wanted to destroy a vibrant opposition board, I'd pose as a sensible Democratic moderate and I'd start going after the people who ask questions. Shut them up and the rest don't matter.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm able to listen to the pro's and con's on any issue and make my own decision on what theories make sense and which ones I don't buy. What I find most interesting on the 9/11 forum are the posters. Not the ones who post questions or start threads that are "out there", but the ones who find all questions about 9/11 ridiculous, yet they can't seem to stay away. Know what I mean, Gene?

[geek tragedy]

318. And if I were a Republican op, I'd pose as a crazy CT'er in order

to paint progressives as lunatics and get them to waste their time trying to prove such contemptible fantasies like "Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon."

I'd also post links to sites like The American Free Press, Prison Planet,whatreallyhappened.com and rense in order to support the case that liberals hate Jews and are really crypto-fascists.

[frictionlessO]

355. So start a campaign to censor DU already then!

Go on!

Lets fight this out then. Since you dont need us and you dont want us here. Since we are so bad for the party to the point of you essentially calling all CT'ers holocaust denyers and freepers.

Go on and start a campaign! Go and yell it from every board.

Just dont forget to define it, since it is all about your claims and your view point and you wouldn't want anything tro escape from such scrutiny as yours or those you deem worthy.

Did you know something like 60% of the people in NYC think the administration had something to do with 9/11?

You and your friends have insulted so many DU'ers with this obvious flamebait set of posts in this thread, this so very VERY broad brush you use that Im dumbfounded you haven't been banned. You want to get me banned or toe your idea of a party line, you want to get rid of me and my ilk!! Most of the CT'ers around here are some of the most active members. You want to change that though...

Why?? Why do you want to hurt DU'ers that have easily given as much as you have???!!!

Why do you insist on using such broad brush strokes???

Why haven't you bothered to respond to my other posts to you here? They were thoughtfully worded, and yet you act like they don't exist.

Hows this, if you dont like DU than request Skinner or Admin to change it instead of purposefully starting a flame war were you make any CT'ing DU'er seem like an anti semite freeper undercover. You and your cohorts have repeatedly done this throughout this thread. You come perilously close to treating us as badly you'd treat the freepers.

So what about Conyers and Boxer, I guess you don't think they should be allowed to post here either, eh? With their wild theories about Gannon and Election fraud and DSMs and Plame and Rove.

Yep you just believe what you want and condemn everyone who might think outside your 100% positive proof (or was that circumstantial evidence). Your ego is showing. Your empathy is lacking. Your purpose is self evident, this is surely a vendetta against any CT'er on DU. The vitriol that you have spewed all over with such BROAD BRUSH strokes is obvious to any who read this thread.

All you do is defend exactly what your government says has happened like they need your help, like youre providing some great insight that isn't everywhere in every mainstream pub out there. Give me a break and get off that high horse, that you keep on casting aspersions at every CTer on DU from. Which according to your own broadly defined terms includes all LIHOP'ers. You repeatedly used the words "stupid" and "idiot" to describe myself and all other CT'ers (all LIHOP'ers and beyond). You and your allies in this endeavor further added insult to injury by implying that we all our holocaust denying freepers in disguise!!!!!!!!!!!

I really want to know why. I really want to know if you know this to be a fact? I really want to know if you wanna come on over and it tell it to my half Jewish ass??? You wanna tell me to my face Im some sort of holocaust denyer? No I dont think you do... So please just admit that you were wrong already by using such a wide swath for your own grandstanding for what are sadly just your beliefs like anyone elses... like everyones opinions, like everyones assholes.

I also dont think you will answer all questions that have been forth to you. I also dont think you have a clue as to how many on DU LIHOP...

Thanks again for the betrayal, its supposed moderates like you that make it hard decide the lesser of two evils. Always trying to get those repubs to the middle but never us CT'ing moonbats, eh? Or is it just Liberals in general now???

[seemslikeadream]

357. START?

Oh that happened a LONG time ago, frictionlessO

[frictionlessO]

364. Yes well since theirs seems to be going so well I just started my own here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1917801

I knew that there was ome back and forth about this but I had no idea that such broad strokes would be applied. they do realize that Andy was one of us right? That Andy was a CT'er of a high mind? Andy was the one that got me going... he was my most real inspiration. I learned so much from him... and then they come winging in here like black winged roses in the mouth of some angel of death. Their petals drop like acid rain on an open wound...

I am so raw....

[seemslikeadream]

367. Yes and sometimes even legit links have been banned

and then restored by Skinner when brought to his attention. These 2 have berated the mods and many DU'ers for so long now I am sick of it also.

[geek tragedy]

375. The Holocaust deniers have been made to feel welcome

in the Conspiracy Theorist community. That's not my fault.

I suggest you demand that loony-bin sites like Xymphora and all skeptic sites and conferences to have a zero-tolerance policy for Holocaust deniers.


They have an obligation--moral and intellectual--to purge the Holocaust deniers from their midst.

If they're not willing to take that moral and intellectual stand, they're not worthy of anything other than contempt.

And I live in New York, and have since before 911. I've never had a single New Yorker tell me they thought that Bush was behind 911.

The rule for me is simple: Provide info and facts and logic, not half-baked theories with no evidence. Don't sit there and scream that "the official account has no evidence either." Because that just makes you look stupid.

For the record, I don't support closing down the 911 forum. There should be a place where the conspiracy-minded should discuss their stuff.

[seemslikeadream]

379. I know CSPAN is SUCH A Conspiracy Theorist community

[Minstrel Boy]

380. What do you know of the "Conspiracy Theorist Community"?

What community is that, anyway? Do you attend their strawberry socials?

"Holocaust deniers made to feel welcome"

Noxious, know-nothing bile. :puke:

[geek tragedy]

381. Your blog links to anti-semitic sites, so spare me your dishonest outrage.

You're guilty too.

Google the names "Michael Collins Piper" and "Christopher Bollyn" and tell me why they still get invited to Skeptics' conferences. Tell me why The American Free Press, Truthseeker.co.uk and Rense get a very large number of links from CT sites.

I'll tell you why: A very large number of CT'ers lap up any material that disagrees with the official account without looking into the source. People who would never dream of linking to Fox News or even NBC news willfully post stories from Holocaust denial sites.

They are not equally skeptical towards all accounts of the 911 attacks. Who do they trust--civil engineers or the dude on the Internet who assembles a snappy little Flash animation? 95% of the time, it's the latter.

Xymphora links to your blog. It also links to Rense and thetruthseeker.co.uk.

Are you proud to be in such company? What does it say about the nutters running Xymphora that they have NEO-NAZIS on their blogroll?

You yourself link to at least two anti-semitic sites. So, clean up your own act and then you can bleat.

[frictionlessO]

410. WHOA!!! Thats it Last Fuckin' Straw!

Pointless baseless false accusations!?!? Again?!!

I never go to any of the sites you have mentioned, I once quoted TBRnews because of the voice of the whitehouse, and you set me straight on that. and I thanked you deeply and meant it. But that load of absolute shit that you just tried to attach to my name here on DU is damn close to other actions Ive seen by other compassionless twerps, and its WRONG!

Here on this thread you have advocated (and yes you have, please go back and read every single one of your posts on this thread you, implied it in bulk) that DU do away with us in a similar purge. You want it that badly than go and start posting for purges, start bugging admin to do away with us and draw people to your cause, and quit friggin' whining like you're being persecuted.

Just for once already, define exactly what you think should be allowed in what forum!! You just seem (implying if you will) to be saying anyone postulating LIHOP is wrong and an embrassment and is a "stupid" "idiot" "freeper" "holocaust denier". In fact you have said this over and over again to the point that I now believe you are trying to provoke some sort of physical confrontation. Why do you continue to insult me and my fellow DUers? If you keep trying to tie me into those sites you are mentioning and making me out to be what I am patently not, you will only look more the fool as I point out your ways. This is all so weird in my paranoid little world and is very rovian of you. Rove and you Geek... You and Rove.. Geek Geek Rove Rove... Ya know what fuck it, Ill give its very own line in this post of mine.

Rove and Geek. Rove trashes his fellow Americans with lies, as does Geek with his fellow DU'ers. Lies by association, the method to the monkey! Geek might love Rove to pieces but Im not sure really, other than he has very similar ways of trying to connect two wildy different articles. Saddam, Al Queda, terra terra, Iraq. Rove and Geek Tragedy using smears by association. Liberal terrorist therapy and what not, getting my point yet Geek?

Look at my last paragraph and see how assinine and childish it is to do what you have just tried to do with me, There was no need for you to try and associate me with holocaust deniers and freepy types but you do. There was no need to call all CT'ers idiots and stupid and the other names you used wantonly and witsh such wide strokes.

Here's an idea you go on ahead and purge us or sentence all talk of any CT that you do not agree with down to the cellars. I mean its not our site as well. So I mean you should get to censor us all you want. Don't you even see who you are sounding like?

Please make sure you let us all know the new rules, especially Admin and the mods.

..and to actually do you the favor of responding to your actual words (something so far you have neglected to do for me).

"The rule for me is simple: Provide info and facts and logic, not half-baked theories with no evidence. Don't sit there and scream that "the official account has no evidence either." Because that just makes you look stupid."

Whats half baked about 9/11 LIHOP??? DO you even understand the array of people that believe it was LIHOP now? I think you are living in the past. Seriously you know what was half baked? The official account. No argument it was with tha many holes and so many people much more important and knowledgeable about it than you and I can ever hope to be have as much as said so or wont your ego let you get that far? The evidience is all over the place even completely disregarding most of the theory that is out there, if you can't see the holes you are helpless or willfully ignorant or maybe both.

Also I have never sat here and screamed "the official account has no evidence either", so as you postulate immediately afterwards "it makes you look stupid", it sure does Geek, it sure does.

And for the record you not supporting shutting down the 9/11 forum came off as completely insincere or with contempt...

Seriously you have a moral obligation not to use such broad strokes as you have against your fellow DU'ers here it makes you look like you are here to hurt us more than help... and speaking of which, what causes have you been championing lately around here on DU? Besides trying to get all the anti CT'ers worked up and chanting purge with pitchforks in their hands that is.

I was wrong about the poll it was only about 50%... back in August last year. Hmm wonder if its gone up or down since then?? Hmmm I wonder, don't you Geek? I mean theres no evidence I have that says it went up but I have a theory... If you dont know anyone in NYC who thinks Bush had something to do with it by LIHOP'ing, then sadly either the people you know dont trust you or you have a very very limited circle of friends. How's this for proof?

Or does this not meet your conspiracy addled paranoia credentials.

Poll: 50% of NYC Says U.S. Govt Knew


†

Zogby International

Polling/Market Research
Public Relations Services
Marketing Strategies



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, Monday, Aug. 30, 2004

Half of New Yorkers Believe U.S. Leaders†Had†
Foreknowledge of Impending 9/11†Attacks and†
"Consciously Failed" To Act;

66% Call For New†Probe of Unanswered†Questions
by Congress†or New York's†Attorney General,
New Zogby†International†Poll Reveals

(Utica, NY) - On the eve of a Republican National Convention invoking 9/11 symbols, sound bytes and imagery, half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act," according to the poll conducted by Zogby International. The poll of New York residents was conducted from Tuesday August 24 through Thursday August 26, 2004. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5.




....and finally why one earth do you come to DU if you think it sucks so badly that you have to try and assisnate peoples character? Don't you think that DU works fine the way it is, pretty much? Don't like something you read then hit alert, dont like a thread and those mean old liberal moderators wont lock it for you then hit the ignore button. Certain people really piss you off?? IGNORE them!!! Anything esle is for the DU Admin and Mods to decide in as much as being innapropriate for this site or a particular forum.!!!!

AND THAT IS THE TRUTH!!!!

[Old and In the Way]

363. No, you've chosen the "sensible moderate" route to do your smearing.

There are other's who play the role of wacked out conspiracy theorists.

But I do like how you and a few others are now trying to link liberals who don't buy into the government-approved official conspiracy theory with hating Jews therefore are crypto fascists, though. I'm pretty sure that's a Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannity talking point.

I really don't care what you believe with regards to 9/11...fact is, no one knows the truth about the events that day, unless, of course, you believe the story that this administration is peddling. Given this adinistration's track record of truth telling, that'd make you either a very naive Democrat or a very cynical Republican.

[geek tragedy]

374. No, I'm actually a pretty damn liberal. The conspiracy loons

are not representative of the progressive movement in this country.

They have more in common with the "Klintoon killed Vince Foster" crowd than they do with the great majority of liberal Americans.

[Old and In the Way]

404. Oh, I see....a liberal who's not interested in the truth.

Or maybe a liberal who believes George Bush and Dick Cheney's undocumented, unsworn, non-public testimony in front of the 9/11 commission.

Ok, you're a progressive liberal that smears people who don't believe this administration's story about 9/11....feel better?

[geek tragedy]

408. That bin Laden did 911 is not "Bush's" story. It's John Kerry's story,

Howard Dean's story, Dennis Kucinich's story.

Now, if you want to accuse Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean of being Bush flunkies . . .

[TheWatcher]

325. Your hypocrisy is as usual, stunning.

To Quote you:

"If you have proof to support your claim, provide it. If you don't have proof, don't claim it."

And yet you constantly bash and gnash at those who believe in LIHOP/MIHOP, yet you never seem to have any facts or evidence to prove YOUR claims that those theories are the nonsense you CLAIM they are.

When challenged, you backpedal faster than Lance Armstrong going in reverse, because you know you have nothing to support your own loud screeching claims to the contrary.

The fact is for all your finger pointing and screeching about disconnect from reality, you aren't even able to give credibility to the one you so desperately want to believe in.

[geek tragedy]

327. Oh please. I can't disprove your damn religion.

The fact that there's no evidence of MIHOP doesn't matter to you people. It's an article of faith.

There's no proof of MIHOP/LIHOP, which is why they're rejected.

And anyone who claims there is no evidence for the mainstream account of 911 isn't living on Planet Earth.

Have a nice life tilting at those windmills.

[TheWatcher]

334. The fact is when you are challenged for such evidence that disproves

MIHOP/LIHOP

You can't give a single shred. Not one link.

Not one.

You've been challenged several times in this thread alone.

You only respond with backpedaling and insults.

There are so many holes in the Official Story that Swiss Cheese looks solid in comparison.

Have a nice life living in the Fantasy World the MSM Media and Government have created for you.

Such a Good Little Citizen you are.

The Official Story? Now THAT's an Article Of Faith.

You've definitely got more religion than I do, Greek.

Try proving the credibility of your own religion first.

This should be entertaining.

[Silverhair]

344. The burden of proof is on he who makes a claim.

There was a gun in Mississippi some years back who was selling a book about his claim of UFO alien abduction. As proof of his claim his ad said: ...and he has never been proved false."

You are trying to claim that if someone can't prove a CT wrong, then that if proof of it being right.

Logic doesn't work that way. It it up to YOU to prove, not merely claim, but to prove that your CT is right.

[seemslikeadream]

351. How can one prove something if it's not allowed to be discussed?

[Silverhair]

353. Start your own blog. NT

[seemslikeadream]

354. "No I'll stay here and fight for FREE speech. NT"

[Silverhair]

361. That freedom belongs to the owner, not to us who are guests here.

The owner of DU could turn it into an extension of the Republican Party, (Odds of that are extremely close to zero.)and there would be nothing we could do about it, and none of our free speech rights would have been violated.

Are Freepers rights violated by DUs policies? No. Neither or anyone else's. Free speech simply stops gov't censorship (Or rather is supposed to.)but allows private censorship to proceed.

Would your "fight for free speech" include allowing Freepers into DU?

[seemslikeadream]

376. KOS sure is free to censor if he pleases

and now we know that

[JohnnyBoots]

206. Remember though in all Greek tragedy, the

evil are vanquished by there own hubris. Let's hope it plays out that way.

[bloom]

309. I think what has bothered me lately

are the people who assume THEY know the truth when, in fact, nobody knows.

I'd be happy to have a speculation forum for people who want to toss ideas around. But I don't think the MSM ideas should get priority over other ones.


And I don't venture into the 9/11 forum much - but I'm not surprised.

[Chicago Democrat]

213. Kos is too conservative

Even though the theory is whack, liberal whackos are still LIBERAL, right?

[frictionlessO]

215. Nope not according to the DU'ers on this thread. Liberal CT'ers are

in fact rightwing CT'ers just here to fuck with all the true Dems. I think what we are witnessing is the Dems trying very hard to shed their Liberal persona. We are apparently detrimental to their election efforts so they have no need for us now.

[katinmn]

254. I agree

But the funny thing is, they NEED us, because we're the activists. We get out the votes.

[brentspeak]

216. Kos is not the only web-site owner to be concerned about this

Skinner pointed out that the conspiracy-mongers make DU look bad. In fact, Freepers may have "planted" one here just so they embarass us:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2907807&mesg_id=2907807&page=

[frictionlessO]

230. He does not in fact use the broad brushes that have been applied in this

thread.

Nor does he want to shut down all CTing, at least that is not how I read it. He may not personally agree with every CT that has ever flown across this board and I even doubt that he has come to believe a small percentage, because a lot of us are like that anyway.

What I am saying is that the broad consensus that you and GT and people who are saying all CT'ers (implicit in saying CT'ers with no caveat whatsoever) are bad for Dems (and in some cases implying that the bulk of us are in actuality freepers which is in of itself based in some truth but in no way the whole) is just wrongly accusing in much the same manner that most of you seem to accuse us of being part of.

Do you understand what I am saying here? I'm not trying to flame, I'm not trying to shut you down, I am not saying you altogether wrong... I am saying that shutting down all CT'ing inside the main forums will in fact be detrimental to DU's operating as any kind of think tank that isn't already out there. That that is in fact what you and many seem to be saying here, and if that is the case then you need to just quit implying what you mean, as in what is exactly CT defined as. Is LIHOP CT here on DU therefore liable to get you flamed and banned if you guys have your say? Where and what are exactly the boundaries because so far the seemingly anti-CT'ers haven't defined it at all yet... and that ain't no theory.

So please tell me whats true here. If I am not actually wanted or needed or may in fact be harming DU in any way, tell me.. please for all that is true in your heart tell me.

I hate being where I shouldn't ya know?

[Old and In the Way]

262. Reminds me of the Pro-Choice vs. Pro-Life Debate

(Note: No interest in starting a tangential flame war on that issue here).

As a Pro-Choice supporter, I can accept a woman's position on whether to have or not have babies. The Pro-Life position is limited to babies only, because their position is infallible, based on a personal article of faith.

As a CT'er, I'm open to any ideas, good or bad. I'm all for discusion and the debating of ideas. Those opposed seem to want to limit discussion based on their personal certainities of a subject.

What's the real harm in dialogue? If you don't agree say so and avoid the thread. Or don't open the thread at all. Or hide the poster so your sensibilities won't ever be negatively impacted again.

Kind of sad to think that some here are demanding a some kind of groupthink conformity....that's what the other side seems to do so well.

[brentspeak]

352. Well, I can't say anything about you, specifically

Frictionless. I don't know if I've ever read your posts. And, on this topic, I can't lump a bunch of people together as one. Since the election, however, I feel like DU is drowning in talk other than the kind of talk I'm mostly interested in: how to get Democrats back into office, and how to minimize the damage caused by the Bush Republicans.
I've had a lot of red state DUers tell me that, for various reasons, they can't relate to DU anymore. They also feel almost demeaned, ridiculed for being Southerners, implicitely accused of being bigots, etc. And when it finally dawned on me that the strength of DU was actually being turned against itself -- that red state Democrats were actually abandoning the site, perhaps even contemplating not remaining Democrats -- I became completely livid. Actually, the word "livid" is not adequate to describe how I feel about that.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that's you. Lately I've sort of been insisting that DU gets back on track for the Democrat cause, focus on that. I don't mind speculation, but sometimes it wanders into kooky territory. For example, if somebody suggested that Bush was totally negligent re. 9/11, I'd heartily agree with you. And if you told me he's using the Iraq War to line the pockets of his cronies, I'd also agree with you. But if someone insisted that Bush KNEW about 9/11 and let it happen for reasons of his own, my eyes would roll to the back of my head.

So rather than censoring threads, I think the best thing to do is to politely but firmly recommend to CT-oriented posters (or any poster, for that matter) that they carefully consider the value of what they're posting. Doesn't mean that the posts should be removed, though.


No, I'd say you're wanted and needed here at DU. I mean, I certainly want to feel that way myself.

[leesa]

218. Good to see him perpetuating main stream media mythology!

No proof of Muslim terrorist involvement, but hey...!

[dbeach]

231. when in doubt ..censor it out!

ya still got both bush and the CTs in the morning

the TRUTH..will be exposed..

purges ..what a very stalinist choice of words..

first they will come for the weirdos..then the tin foils ...then the CT ers..what it gets down to the dissidents..starts to get closer to home.

but it could NEVER happen in the USA..
ask germans or russki survivors..

[qanda]

234. What a sad day for left-wing blogs

When we can no longer speculate or ask questions. I've seen it creeping in all around us and I guess the sooner we all fall in line, the better off we will be.

My sister, who is NO conspiracy theorist, said today that she wouldn't be surprised if Bush and Blair planned the London attacks for their own benefit. I was absolutely SHOCKED! Well, she told me that after going to see the Enron movie and finding out what they did in California, she won't ever believe the government officials again.

[Old and In the Way]

250. Rmember when Clinton was President and we had Congressional

hearings and an impeachment based on RW conspiracy theories? Well, that was OK because the corporate media was encouraging it. We have real evidence of criminal conspriracy and incompetence where 3,000 Americans died. But because we can't investigate this administration and we have a media who clearly wants to discredit any Democratic organization that could threaten the status quo, we've become the problem. Hey, no need for investigations, no impeachment necessary because no one was at fault....the Bush stacked 9/11 'Bi-Partisan' Commission proved that. So why persist with these crazy theories? We make our Party look bad, we are like that odd Uncle who always farts at the table during Thanksgiving grace. The partisan Republican meme is catching on..."it's people like you why Democrats are losing elections" or, worse, "you're Republicans trying to make DU / Democrats / liberals / progressives look bad".

So the fight now is for respectibility, not truth. We become expendable (have you noticed how 9/11 skeptics are being label morphed into Holocaust deniers now?). The 9/11 kooks will go first, then the BBV crowd. The rest won't matter. But LBN won't change and the Lounge will still be fun!

[damnthetorpedoes]

244. Good

Hard to be taken seriously with all the crankery. As a friend of mine says, these guys are bad enough that all you have to do is focus on the proven crap and it's counterproductive to push things you can't prove. It's not like we need it.

Sure, it would be a beautiful apocalypse if Bush could be tied to 9/11. I don't even rule out LIHOP. Heck, in effect we already have the evidence for LIHOp, if that's a tale of incompetence and venality and not conspiracy to murder 3000 people. But most people hear this and say WTF. And it allows them to dismiss the DSM, the Iraq fiasco, Plamegate, etc., as cut from the same conspiracy cloth. The MSM doesn't bother to sort any of this out. Kos is interested in staying relevant and being influential, which he's certainly been good at. DU could learn a thing or two from him, if anyone here cares about shaping opinion outside our own circle.

Good on Kos. I'm a regular there, and I will remain one.

[snowbear]

251. Yeah, really..

As often as KOS is quoted on the MSM, I can understand why they'd go that route too.

[WLKjr]

257. Can't blame Kos

I would take bs threads off too. It just clutters the real discussions.

[Skip Intro]

263. 2000, 9*11, Anthrax, TERROR, Patriot Act, 2002, Iraq, Wellstone, Osama,

Cheney, Hallibuton, Rumsfled, Saddam, Iraq, Condoleeza Rice, Iraq, Terror Alert! - Never mind, Bush, Saudi Arabia, 9*11, Iraq, Oil, Halliburton, Enron, Dems=Terrorists, 9*11, Iraq..LIES DEATH DESTRUCTION CHAOS....

Yet we insist upon projecting some basic humanity on this group, on this crowd, this gang. We insist they have a line which they will not cross. Yeah, they've slautered tens and tens of thousands of people for fake reasons, but SURELY they wouldn't stage some even that took fifty or so lives.

And shut up talking about what is within the realm of possibility. And how dare you even think it. My God, what would the people on the right think?

:eyes:

[dbeach]

265. bush cabal =

endless lies,wars,confusion,profits,...


and the ravaging of Liberty but "hey what me worry"
but thanxs god"I'm a son of a bush".
bringing democracy and freedom to a nation near you if its got something to profit from..does N. Korea have any gold???

[burythehatchet]

267. thanks Skip. Well said

[seemslikeadream]

272. But I'm so tired of thinking, can't someone else do it for me?

http://kittycharm.homestead.com.nyud.net:8090/files/CALGON_1.gif

[candy331]

277. Of course some people would prefer to not mess up their beautiful

minds with thinking so they allow and beg others to tell them what and how to think. Surely there is a reason why the masses in America do not know history and are hastily rushing down the road to repeating it and worse. Some people in Merica think Africa is one country, do you? History is replete with dastardly deeds done by supposedly upstanding non dastardly people. Humans are capable of any and everything (remember the lynchings that just got apologized for)and the sooner ones pull the cover from over their faces the sooner they will enter the real world. Governments and their leaders have always used whatever necessary to control people and evoke their power, it didn't start now and it want stop now. AND BY THE WAY WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ARMAGEDDON THUMPERS ARE PUSHING FOR peace and love?

[burythehatchet]

266. Burythehatchet purges Dailykos from his bookmarks

and don't get me wrong, this IS a purge. Fuck him.

[moondust]

275. 1972.

What kind of wackos dreamed up these "embarassing conspiracy theories" about Nixon and some kind of dirty tricks squad and an enemies list and using the organs of gov't to cover up crimes? I mean gimme a break! That is NOT reality based at all and they're outta here!

...

In order to connect the dots one must sometimes feel around in the dark to find out where the dots are and where they aren't, what's a dot and what isn't. The dots don't always just appear in broad daylight waiting to be connected.

[Old and In the Way]

278. "Cept this time, we're on our own.

No Washington Post to do our heavy lifting. No Democratic Congress willing to investigate. If we can't do dot research here, not sure where it will happen.

[zann725]

280. Bit of a knee-jerk reaction?. Me thinks he protesteth too much.

Hopefully there is still room enough for BOTH rationality (whatever that is), AND open dialogue...particularly on the internets.

Sounds a bit too much like censorship to me.

Sooo...if we pretend to not even think the thoughts...or choose not to even discuss the POSSILITY...then of course it can never be true. Isn't that classic "denial?"

[Minstrel Boy]

285. There are a lot of preening, ignorant bullshitters

with little grasp of the evidence and no appreciation for parapolitics who contentedly squeeze greasy farts in the faces of researchers and activists who know what time it is.

Who's the disgrace?

[geek tragedy]

321. I assume you're referring to the tools who claim that Flight 77

didn't have the Pentagon.

Because I know you wouldn't associate with such morons.

[TheWatcher]

323. He isn't referring to people who actually believe the Official Story

either.

He would never associate with those type of morons either, and of course neither would you.

Oh, wait.....

[geek tragedy]

326. Yes, I associate with every credible analyst as well as every member

of Congress and every prominent member of the Democratic party.

Not to mention the left-leaning governments of Germany and Spain.

I guess people like you are just too smart to be Democrats.

:sarcasm:

[TheWatcher]

332. And some people are far too gullible and desperate

to tow the Official Line to consider that the path to the Truth sometimes lies outside of the traditional avenues and boundaries of said line.

Some people are too afraid of what the Truth might really be. Perhaps it's why they can only respond with broad brushed statements and loud screeching in an attempt to shout down those who are actually interested in finding out what The Truth is, because they cannot get it from the Government who refuses to represent them and lies to them constantly about everything from 9/11, to the War in Iraq, to the economy, to the Elections, etc, etc, etc, and the Media who serves as an enabling lapdog for the former.

Also, it's funny how when those same people who shout down others are challenged, they provide no facts or evidence to support their loud condemnations, only backpedaling and more diversion, broad brushing.

Too smart to be democrats? Hardly. Just not gullible enough to believe the Party Line at face value.

You should try it sometime. Maybe you wouldn't be so angry and defensive.

And, who knows, even YOU might learn something.

[Minstrel Boy]

338. More than truth, you want respectability.

As does Kos.

But some truths aren't seemly, because they transgress the assumptions of respectable society.

How close to the truth can one get by bobble-headed agreement with politicians, even "every prominent member of the Democratic party"?

[geek tragedy]

348. No, I just don't think the CT'ers are anywhere close to the truth.

Just because a group is fringe and generally not respected doesn't mean they're correct.

[Minstrel Boy]

349. But because a group is respectable, they are?

Because that is your assumption.

Searching for truth challenges assumptions, and it's a disreputable pursuit. It's not "fringe" - it's plumbing depths. And doing that can dredge up revelations which transgress the assumptions of respectable society.

[Minstrel Boy]

324. not all conspiracies are created equal

I've frequently written on my blog that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, and that to suggest otherwise plays into the hands of the criminals, their apologists and useful idiots who would marginalize informed and truely skeptical inquiry.

Yet some facile piss artists perpetually misrepresent all researchers as neo-Nazis, anti-semites and credulous fools.

Know what I mean?

[Helga Scow Stern]

288. Wasn't there some similar malarkey coming from DKos about the election?

Who has time for covering up the truth when finding it is hard enough?

On edit:

DU rules. There is much less of a group think dynamic here, I suppose in part because Skinner and others don't have their names, hence their egos, attached to the site.

Democratic Underground. The name says it all....it's not the world according to Kos or Skinner, but according to a whole bunch of diverse minds who collectively are a jillion times more efficient at sniffing out bs than any top-down controlled site could ever be.

[BigBearJohn]

301. There was a time when THIS story would have been considered tin foil too!

WASHINGTON -- President Clinton will apologize on behalf of the federal government for a medical experiment in which hundreds of black men were denied treatment for syphilis for 40 years, the White House said Tuesday.

"The president feels we have a moral obligation," a White House spokeswoman, Mary Ellen Glynn, said. Ms. Glynn said several agencies have been discussing how to express official regret for the experiment in which the U.S. Public Health Service withheld treatment from 399 men from 1932 to 1972 to study how syphilis spread and how it killed.

The experiment was carried out in Tuskegee, Ala., and a lawyer for the eight remaining survivors of the experiment said Tuesday that Tuskegee would be an ideal place for Clinton's statement.

SOURCE: http://mbhs.bergtraum.k12.ny.us/cybereng/nyt/race01.htm

[snot]

305. I have to chime in . . .

I'm certainly sympathetic to a fear of having serious concerns discounted.

But this administration has in fact given us every reason to feel distrustful and paranoid. It is in their power to dispel a great deal of the paranoia, if they would actually investigate anything. Instead, they've done everything in their power to suppress inquiry.

Under these circumstances, they should expect us to assume the worst. And we would be fools not to wonder whether the worst might be true. Personally, I'm afraid NOT to wonder.

[whatever4]

308. That's exactly where I'm at

And I think, judging from the attention this thread has gotten that MANY others of us have those concerns as well.

And I'd ask DU'ers on here to look at the comments being directed toward those of us having concerns. Look at the words, look at the tone; is this not similiar to the ridicule the neocons spit out all the time? Do we even WANT to sound like those people? Is THIS the discourse typical of democrats?

It IS NOT a question of our government not having a track record of illegal actions against individuals and groups. IT IS NOT a question of whether or not our government is capable of such acts. It is not a question of whether or not they are willing to commit acts of violence without reason; witness the early bombings of Iraq.

Had we heard rumors about the bombings of Iraq many months before the war began, would it have sounded like "ridiculous rumors" too??

And if so, what the hell good is this board then?

See here folks, it was folks like US that blew the lid of the war in the first place. And the DSM. The outing of the CIA agent. Stop with the trying to shut us up. Unless YOU ALL want to be complicit in these actions we fear. Seriously. Those that defend the actions of these monsters are, effectively, helping them get away with it. Whatever it may be.

Can't believe I've had to waste time defending this topic. Can't believe I have to have these arguments here. Sad. Now, I know we're sunk. If THIS is the democrats, we're done. There is no one to turn to. I thought they had a vested interest, I thought they were interested in defending the American people (and the world) from these monsters. Turns out, they're just like them, worried about their own interests and political clout.

They, like the neocons, are far more worried with how they look than what they are. From that, there is nothing but sorrow. Bye bye America. I feel like I grew up hardly knowing you, and as I grew up strong and proud, you became weak and sick. Just like any other mother in this nation, I'm so busy and so worried, by the time I discovered how sick you were, there was very little I could do but mourn.

Reading this thread, I'm mouring all the more. Turns out, the only other ones that care are left as helpless and bewildered as I am. They've run over us, and the more we realize it, the sadder it becomes. Like watching a nation of peoples getting slapped down, one by one, by people that do nothing but vent their pent-up aggression and fear. We consume ourselves, while our world falls down.

And they say we're crazy. We wish we were.

[sadiesworld]

330. Where DUers stand:

Support kos purge: 18
Disapprove of purge: 54
Not determined: 7

Interesting.

[seemslikeadream]

336. Censorship=18 Free speech=54

Thanks sadiesworld for the count. This is how I read it

[JohnnyBoots]

339. The tone between the two is very different as well, it

seems like fear/wanting to be liked by the cool table vs. open mindedness and exploration.

[Q]

342. It's interesting to note...

...that one of the first things out of Bush's mouth after 9-11 was to denounce 'conspiracy theories' about how and why it happened. To make sure this dictate was followed...he sent out his Brownshirts to threaten and intimidate anyone that wouldn't accept the official story. All of the Democratic Leadership fell into line...promising not to include the Bush White House in investigations... and most of the rank and file followed along.

Everyone wanted to go along to get along. This happened after the 2000 election. After Harken, Halliburton, Enron. Every scandal, every crime was treated like just another day in politics. Democracy is on life support and the Bush WH is officially ABOVE THE LAW.

And now? Fascism has come to America. But we can't talk about it in 'polite company' because the Brownshirts won't like it.

Kos is boring and uninspired. America needs more than that right now.

[ChiciB1]

343. OKAY, Why Don't We All....

Just Go Home!!! Get the Hell Outta here and SHUT Up!!!

I'm not sure how much more I can take!!! My question... are we EVER going to reach the DIM-Wits???

All I see as each day goes by is DEFECTION!! Drinking Kool-Aid, sliding down the slippery slope to anonymity and annihilation!



:mad: :puke:

[liberalfriend]

358. This is Terrible

The fact that KOS isn't letting people speak their minds, no matter how ridiculous it is is terrible. One of the best parts of the left blogosphere is our penchant for open dialog. Most rethug sites don't allow for people to talk and possibly criticize their "facts". This is just a step in the wrong direction, shame on you KOS for being afraid of free speech!

[ElectroPrincess]

368. I concur!

No, it's not appropriate to personally attack another member or even make accusations toward a political figure without giving a basic rationale. However, IMO, no matter how wacky a theory, if there's a possibility of someone's theory being remotely true and it does NO harm - IMO we should allow it to be expressed?

In other words, if a individual's theory seems bizarre but does not advocate any violence and has some semblance of plausibility, it at the least supports a CREATIVE process by presenting another angle - consideration in our problem solving / brainstorming endeavors, i.e., hey, it's free speech.

I'd also suggest that a significant portion of our discussions should consider ways of reaching those average Americans struggling with 1-3 jobs to support their families.

We must be able to communicate with "John and Jane American" before the PsyOps students from the numerous and well funded, right wing think tanks completely pickle their brains.

I don't know Kos's story, however, some people will NOT want to entertain a theory because the TRUTH would be more horrible for their psyche to consider.

Right now - what's happening to the American Sheeple - IS a massive blurring of the lines of both reality and morality. Stories that confuse us and push the envelope of tolerance and acceptable civil behavior.

Therefore, the last person I would promptly dismiss is a person with doubts about government actions. Albeit their points (Conspiracy Theorists) are often not nearly as well thought out or expressed as the AEI thugs revising American History on C-SPAN, I WANT to hear them out and judge for myself.

My point: IMO the American People are being informed, not only through a RW PsyOps filter, but also using highly funded and well orchestrated clutches of Right Wing talking heads. We are oh so very screwed until enough POWERFUL people WTFU and realize we are spinning out of control. Therefore, we need all the intelligent and talented people we can get to work together - at least, I hope, within this MB?
.
.
.
After all, we've always been at war with Iraq. Right?

[liberalfriend]

391. for the most part I agree with you

Yet is your final comment on Iraq a sarcastic one? Since the first gulf war I've had several family friends over there so I will disagree (assuming the comment was sarcastic) and say that for the most part we have been at war with Iraq for a long long time. Granted this war I'm am talking about is really just a cold war, however there where several flare ups during Clinton's tenure. That being said I also don't mean to criticize to much (but isn't that what this thread is about?) but it seems that a lot of people here have an extremely fatalistic sense about the world. Granted it is good to be cautious and be concerned about events that effect our lives but I have such a huge problem with the term "sheeple". Could we not also be called that? It seems to be such a subjective term when you think about it, and frankly I'd hate to give the republicans any fodder that they can use against us. I don't mean to be a rabble rouser but that is simply what I think.

[emcguffie]

360. Just curious --

-- how do you distinguish between conspiracy theories that are ridiculous and those that are not? Because some of them are not. Conspiracies have gone on since the beginning of history.

When you react in a knee-jerk fashion to any conspiracy theory, then you're doing just what those who conspire want you to do. And there are ridiculous conspiracies that are out there as red herrings, I believe. So you'll quit looking critically at the ones that look like that one, but which are real.

Hey, have you seriously looked into 9/11? Really? Maybe there wasn't a conspiracy, but maybe there was. There's a lot of evidence that there was. Sick as it is.

Not so long ago, I refused to read ANY conspiracy theories -- hey, those people are nuts, right? -- but do your own research and see what you find out.

The chemtrails are real. Maybe they're not biowarfare, maybe they're climate control. But they are real, and I know because I finally looked up. And there is available evidence that says they are quite real, and for a real reason -- the Kyoto Protocol cannot change the greenhouse situation fast enough. There are very serious papers suggesting that putting dust in the stratosphere, or metal particles, could reflect a significant amount of heat, and thus help our destroyed climate. And it seems they are doing that.

Look up every day for a week or two, go out somewhere where you can see a lot of sky, and do it. I know what real clouds look at, and I can make distinctions. If you use your own eyes, you might see something surprising. Call me a tinfoil hattie if you want, but I'm also pretty acute and perceptive.

Do you really think Bush won fair and square?

[Old and In the Way]

370. "Do you really think Bush won fair and square?"

I think the answer is obvious. Bush lost in 2000 by 1/2MM votes...but after 4 years of unbelievable incompetence and obvious criminal acts, we are to believe he won by 5MM votes? I did my own little local survey of the 2004 lection results. Out of 12 people who I knew to be Republicans, 2 voted for Bush...so where'd he get all the votes?

If I was incompetent to the point of complete negligence (best case scenario) that led to the deaths of 3000 people, then lied about the casus belli that makes me a de facto war criminal....would I be willing to rig an election using paperless machines owned by Republicans? You betcha. Bush and the Republican Party will never lose another national election....you can take that kooky conspiracy theory to the bank.

[moondust]

362. Joining the status quo.

Part of the admission price is a commitment to smothering ideas about "what could be" in favor of endlessly rehashing "what is" as disseminated by corporate interests. Of course there could be some big bucks involved.

[Name removed]

366. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ElectroPrincess]

371. Answer: Fear with a side of indifference.

Even MB Administrators must mull over the following concerns:

"It's not going to change, so if I am not going to be personally hurt by all of this intrusion, then perhaps, maybe I do love Big Brother after all? I'm not Muslim! Why should I care if the Government knows everything I do? I have nothing to hide. Anything to feel like I belong. To fit in. The media on the TV tells me I'm Un-American if I call myself a liberal. Perhaps I'm not a liberal after all? Oh, you know what?!? I'll call myself a "progressive" instead! The RW can't attack me now ... and I'm not a Muslim. I have nothing to hide. I want to be safe ... I want to fit in."

Get the point? :scared:

[theearthisround]

369. "Purging" people for "conspiracy theories"? Thats "reality-based"?

"I made a mass banning of people perpetuating a series of bizarre, off-the-wall, unsupported and frankly embarrassing conspiracy theories."

If they're bizarre, off-the-wall, unsupported and embarrassing conspiracy theories why "Purge" those who "believe" them?

"I can't imagine what fucking world these people live in, but it sure ain't the Reality Based Community."

"This is a reality-based community."

"Reality based community" is a *relative* term, unfortunately, not based in "reality". Sounds more like a cult-mantra to be honest. "They're not members of our reality-based community! Purge them for their thoughtcrimes!!"

[undeterred]

377. Daily Kos, I ban thee

for thy narrow-mindedness :tinfoilhat:

[seemslikeadream]

382. Mr. geek did ya know 3 million have died in Congo since 1998?

That's going on right now. Is that a Holocaust to you? it is to me and I've been posting about it for two years now. Don't you EVER call me a Holocaust denier again. I AM SICK of your insults.

[geek tragedy]

383. I never called you one.

I'm just questioning the moral and intellectual judgment of people who link to far-right sites that deny the Holocaust. If you don't post links to such places, good for you. When you notice your fellow CT'ers doing so, I can only imagine that you'll be the one loudest calling them out.

[Minstrel Boy]

384. monstrous insinuations

"I never called you one"
:puke:

[geek tragedy]

386. What's your point?

I never called that person a Holocaust denier--they were under a different impression.

My point is that many in the CT community--yourself included--are willing to link to racist and Holocaust denial sites.

The answer is very simple: Shun Holocaust deniers, racists, and fascists. Don't link to them.

[Minstrel Boy]

389. Your point

is to get me to rise to your bait, so you can alert on me.

:puke: :puke:

[geek tragedy]

392. Why would I alert? You're not posting racist material here.

It's a very legitimate question: Why do people who call themselves progressives link to racist and Holocaust denial sites that serve the agenda of the fascist right? How have the fascists been able to be so successful at their infiltration?

There are two answers: CT'ers either don't care whether someone's a Holocaust denier (e.g. Xymphora) or they choose not to scrutinize outlets that publish information that question the official account.

[Minstrel Boy]

401. You would alert if

I posted what I really think of your insinuations, smears and name-calling.

[geek tragedy]

403. Then your restraint is admirable. However, your unwillingness

to address the question of self-described progressives and 'truth seekers' linking to Holocaust denial and fascist right websites is not.

Do you think that a person can call himself a progressive but link to racist, fascist right, and Holocaust denial websites?

It's a very simple question that a few (Oil Empire, fromthe wilderness) seem willing to answer.

[Minstrel Boy]

406. for your information

I have written extensively on my blog exposing TBRNews and the hoax of the Voice of the White House.

Since you mention Oil Empire, I'll quote from its homepage:

"I have high regard for your bullshit detector."
-- Jeff Wells, Rigorous Intuition (one of the best sites with original analysis of 9/11 truth issues)

To underscore the obvious, that's me.

[geek tragedy]

407. Good onya then.

Now there's just the matter of Rense and whatreallyhappened.com--two blatanly anti-semitic websites that appear on your blogroll.

I don't think for a moment that you're racist or even that you are willing to look the other way. I just wonder why you link to such filthy sites.

[frictionlessO]

411. YOU DID IT RIGHT IN THIS THREAD EARLIER!!!!!

You insinuated it to hell and back that all CTers were holocaust deniiers and possibly freepers here to plant stories to do DU harm!!!

Take a look....

[seemslikeadream]

388. THEN WHY DON'T YOU FOLLOW EVERYONE AROUND

THAT LINKS TO MSM. BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BIGGEST HOLOCAUST DENIERS ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET.


Just like the good Germans that remained silent, that's MSM for ya.

Oh and BTW you have but maybe you've forgotten because you have accused sooooo many you just can not keep track

[geek tragedy]

393. The MSM denies that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and

refer to the Holocaust as a Zionist hoax?

[seemslikeadream]

395. No I am refering to Congo, please

[Name removed]

385. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

387. I never advocated banning such discussion here. I think the 911

forum is a great idea.

DU is a sounding board--it's for people to spout off stuff. That's a different agenda than Kos--who's an activist and is interested in winning elections.

[frictionlessO]

412. Well then for fucks sake let us spout off without associating every damn

one of us with holocaust deniers and freepers, and calling us names!

[Moochy]

413. AMEN!

AMEN!

There is some real mccarthyite crap in this thread.

When did you stop beating your wife?

[AX10]

394. If you disagree with KOS's actions, then I advise you boycott the site.

If you support them, then keep on visiting them.

[Moderator]

414. Locking

if you have questions or comments on the dKos site, may we suggest you contact them directly.

http://www.dailykos.com/contact