ROVE DID SAY HER NAME!!!

[whatever4]

Yes, he did. Think about it; he used the name of her husband. Her family name. A name to which she is legally linked.

He used a "different" name

But he DID name her.

Else, what is the name Wilson to her?

Push this, I think it's relevant. He named her spouse, by name, by a name legally linked to her. A name to which she is entitled to, a name to which she is now, and will forever be, linked to. It's not an alias. It is by marriage. It is HER name. It identified her uniquely.

And that was the point, to identify her uniquely. Which he did. By name.

Rove did leak her name. By name.

[RubyDuby in GA]

1. Marriage records are open

So, yes he did call her out.

[Goldmund]

2. Of course

This "defense" is too lame to even address. Anybody can look up anybody's spouse's name -- a TIME reporter especially can find that info out.

[Chicago Democrat]

3. Franken was saying that the law says "identify" so saying its

Joe's wife is the same as saying her name. Not an issue apparently just chaff from their side as usual.

[Moochy]

7. Super duper double secret background cross my heart

even if he pointed, or used eye gestures to identify her, he identified her.

no take-backsies allowed.

[whatever4]

28. I agree, it's their "usual side issue", fight fire with fire

Because, in effect, their straw arguement is easy to knock over in this case. Pathetically easy.

It has the added benefit of playing on all the traditional, Christian evengalical types. They can't even FRIGGIN argue with it; family values and marriage is all they seem to CARE about. It's all they talk about. Can't argue with a women taking a mans name. Can't argue with the convention.

But they'd likely try anyway. Slimy bastards.

[meppie-meppie not]

33. your absolutely right. To identify her, i.e., "Wilson's wife"

according to the law, is the VERY same as naming her. They are not mutually exclusive.

[wryter2000]

4. Her name IS Valerie Wilson

Wilson states in his book that when they got married she took his name. Her name is Valerie Wilson. I have no idea why we all ended up calling her Plame.

[Dulcinea]

6. Maybe she used her maiden name professionally?

Lots of professional women do that.

Of course, I don't mean she used her maiden or married name while under deep cover!

[Seabiscuit]

30. That's what I've heard - Valerie Plame is her maiden and professional name

Valerie Wilson is her legal married name. Rove identified her for purposes of the criminal statute when he referred to her as Wilson's wife. All the right wing spin and Rove's lawyer's blatherings are nothing but that - purely irrelevant blather. Certainly not a legal defense. Rove blew her cover. Simple as that. End of discussion.

[Double T]

13. 'Plame' is a republican insertion so they could use the very excuse.....

they are trying to pass through NOW. It has taken two (2) years to place the 'Plame' name through the media so that it became the 'common' reference for the CIA agent that was outed. Always remember, this bush administration is capable of anything!!!!!

[Richardo]

5. I say we drop the 'name' part and substitute 'identify'

...because he did obviously identify her, whether using her name or not.

[fob]

10. You're right. Here's how it should go;

bush*enabler: rove did NOT say her NAME!

DUer: It doesn't matter, he IDENTIFIED her.

b*e: but he DIDN'T SAY HER NAME! (Loud fuckers ain't they?)

DUer: OK, did YOU know her name AND/OR what she did for a living 2 years ago?

b*e: No.

DUer: Do you know her name and occupation NOW?

b*e: Yes.

DUer: Then STFU.

[slutticus]

12. And that's the real issue here.

If he had said "Valerie Plame" is Wilson's wife, it wouldn't have mattered. He revealed her Identity as a CIA operative. As if the fucking name is so hard to find out anyway.

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. "Wilson's wife" or Plame is the same fucking thing.

It's sad how they are trying to protect the little fat worm.

[LiberalFighter]

29. If someone were to say Hillary Rodham would they know?

If someone were to say Clinton's wife would they know who it was?


I know windbag would because he mentioned her as Hillary Rodham I believe yesterday on his show.

[libertypirate]

9. Rove was the first to link the ambasadors wife, to her clandestine

activities and until rove's lapse her identity was protected by the CIA in publications by use of a codename.

[ET Awful]

11. Whether he actually used her name is irrelevant, just saying

she was Wilson's wife is sufficient. Marriage certificates are public record and a competent journalist could find out her name in a matter of minutes just by knowing Wilson's name.

Simply by saying she was Wilson's wife he revealed her identity, that's all that're required by law.

[tiptoe]

15. A 2003 biography online identifies "Wilson's Wife" = "Valerie Plame" see:

A public biography of Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson had been available on the Internet at least 5 monthe BEFORE Novak's report. Rove's mere mention of "Wife" as CIA was sufficient for anyone to connect the name "Valerie Plame":


1) Feb 2003, last line of http://www.cpsag.com/our_team/wilson.html" target="_blank">Internet Listing: "WIFE" == "VALERIE PLAME"
2) Jul 2003, Karl Rove to Matt Cooper: "WIFE" == "CIA"

3) Therefore, anyone capable of a Google search: "VALERIE PLAME" == "CIA"


source: "ABC News, Wash. Post, Newsweek highlighted Rove claim that he did not actually disclose Valerie Plame's name, but a quick Google search would have produced it" (mediamatters.org July 11, 2005)

[ET Awful]

18. Even without that listing though, you can do a quick search of public

records and find the name, whether it was published on the web previously is also irrelevant.

My point being that marriage certificates are a matter of public record. If you know a persons name, you can find out if and when they were married and to whom.

You're right in that a Google search would have found, my point is that even without that biography, the mere reference to Wilson's wife as being CIA is sufficient because the marriage certificate would be a matter of official and public record.

[tiptoe]

20. Your point is excellent and *best* deflates the argument: "Saying

'Wilson's wife' is not the same as identifying her by name." (...and even then, the law may not even be conditioned on the latter criterion).

I wanted to provide quick link-access to information whereby readers could immediately "realize" the association between "Wilson's wife" and the name "Valerie Plame."

Fitzgerald's ultimate target is probably neither Rove nor anyone lacking opportunity to access information (legally or otherwise) at the highest levels...high enough to access NOC agent identities. (The possibilities would seem very few.)

Today, a one-time-CIA-classmate of Plame, Larry Johnson, revealed "NOC" was Plame's status "until Robert Novak betrayed her." Assuming Johnson is accurate, all the assertions about Plame's status wrt the law can be be ignored as lies or political smokescreen.

From The Big Lie About Valerie Plame by Larry Johnson:

...
For starters, Valerie Plame was an undercover operations officer until outed in the press by Robert Novak. Novak's column was not an isolated attack. It was in fact part of a coordinated, orchestrated smear that we now know includes at least Karl Rove.

Valerie Plame was a classmate of mine from the day she started with the CIA. I entered on duty at the CIA in September 1985. All of my classmates were undercover--in other words, we told our family and friends that we were working for other overt U.S. Government agencies. We had official cover. That means we had a black passport--i.e., a diplomatic passport. If we were caught overseas engaged in espionage activity the black passport was a get out of jail free card.

A few of my classmates, and Valerie was one of these, became a non-official cover officer. That meant she agreed to operate overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport. If caught in that status she would have been executed.

The lies by people like Victoria Toensing, Representative Peter King*, and P. J. O'Rourke insist that Valerie was nothing, just a desk jockey. Yet, until Robert Novak betrayed her she was still undercover and the company that was her front was still a secret to the world. When Novak outed Valerie he also compromised her company and every individual overseas who had been in contact with that company and with her...

* Peter King, R-NY "And we'll take care of the counting"

[LiberalFighter]

35. It is not just Valerie Wilson that was left out in the cold or exposed

[tiptoe]

36. exactly...And by the way...

...Have you voted the POLL below?

[LiberalFighter]

34. Voter registration data is public too

Search for Joseph C Wilson in the state of residence then switch to address index to see everyone at that address.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

14. The law says nothing about "naming" - only "identifying"

The law specifically says "any information identifying". Repeat:

"ANY INFORMATION IDENTIFYING"

It could be the person's social security number, their photograph, their fingerprints, their driver's license number, or the fact they are married to a specific person, for example.

In fact, it's conceivable that if someone never used their true name and someone revealed that name, it would not be illegal if it didn't identify that person (reveal their identity - where they lived, where they worked, with whom they associated, with whom they were married, etc.). Rove identified a covert agent, whether or not he named her. This is the weakest part of any defense he may or may not have. I don't think anyone's ever been prosecuted under this statute, but the court would probably construe the language as liberally as possible, giving the words "any information identifying" their broadest possible interpretation, in order to extend the maximum amount of protection to a covert agent, as this law appears in a section regarding "National Security" (presumably a matter of highest priority). It would be interesting to read up on the legislative intent that went into the drafting of this law. I believe it was a pet project of George H.W. Bush while he was head of the CIA.

TITLE 50--WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE

CHAPTER 15--NATIONAL SECURITY

SUBCHAPTER IV--PROTECTION OF CERTAIN NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION

Sec. 421. Protection of identities of certain United States
undercover intelligence officers, agents, informants, and
sources

(a) Disclosure of information by persons having or having had access to classified information that identifies covert agent

Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified
information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not
authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the
information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the
United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert
agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined
not more than $50,000 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(b) Disclosure of information by persons who learn identity of covert
agents as result of having access to classified information

Whoever, as a result of having authorized access to classified
information, learns the identify of a covert agent and intentionally
discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any
individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing
that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined not more than $25,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

(c) Disclosure of information by persons in course of pattern of
activities intended to identify and expose covert agents

Whoever, in the course of a pattern of activities intended to
identify and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that such
activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States, discloses any information that identifies an
individual as a covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such individual and that the United States is taking
affirmative measures to conceal such individual's classified
intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined not more than $15,000 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(July 26, 1947, ch. 343, title VI, Sec. 601, as added June 23, 1982,
Pub. L. 97-200, Sec. 2(a), 96 Stat. 122.)

[Zen Democrat]

16. Actually, she was going by the name Wilson, and not Plame.

[cindyw]

17. Last time I checked women used to be legally know as Mrs. Husbands Name.

So, legally yes, that was her name. Good catch.

[whatever4]

25. Thank you, it hit me...we accept mail addressed as Mrs his name

I can't see any way around it.

In this nation we are commonly addressed by our husbands name. In naming the wife of this man, Rove, in effect, named her BY NAME.

Even without marriage records, it's just a fact.

He named her by HER NAME.

Mrs Wilson.

If she is legally entitled to any and all forms of correspondence that would be addressed to her as Mrs Wilson, then how can they say this woman wasn't not targeted by name?

The family name is Wilson. The names of the children? Likely the his last name, though I don't really know. But if she has in the past used his last name, it only stands to reason their children would bear his name.

Family name. Wilson.

Rove said Mrs Wilson. Rove named her. Period.

He has nothing to fall back on now. I hope

[Lowell]

19. You think that might be important

to the nearly 90 people allegedly liquidated because of her outing? That makes all their nitpicking seem pretty petty and frivolous. How do the families of those who worked with her and are no long alive feel about it?

http://tinyurl.com/aj5jn

[Jane Austin]

21. Think of Novacula's column that set all this off.

It certainly sounds like someone mentioned her name to him, because he used it in that column.

[emcguffie]

22. That's what I say.

Even if he didn't name her at all, he clearly identified her. Once he says she's Wilson's wife, anyone can get her name. And it turns out she actually goes by Wilson.

[Don Claybrook]

23. Who is "The President"?

I brought this up yesterday but the thread sunk like a stone.

If you were to post something threatening to do bodily harm to The President, you'd be hauled off in short order, and you'd better not try any ridiculous semantics games with the judge.

I'm no legal expert, but I can't imagine this wormy sort of defense would work for more than about 45 seconds in front of a judge. You don't have to refer to a person by her given name to uniquely identify that person.

Start eating your last boxes of Twinkies, Karl, you fuck. I hope it hurts you for a long, long time.

[Spider Jerusalem]

24. Either way, he broke the law.

Whether he disclosed her NAME or not, the relevant statute says something about revealing the "identity" of an undercover agent. You can identify someone without naming them.

[Roland99]

26. The name isn't the game. This is media fodder. DSM is where it's at.

[rasputin1952]

27. The name is meaningless...the use of 'Wilson's wife" narrowed it down

to ojne individual.

There is not much that Rove can hide behind...he's toast...:D

[Eloriel]

31. He didn't have to name her -- she was well known in D.C.

They (the Wilsons) had a nice circle of friends, it was said at the time, and they socialized quite a bit. "Joe Wilson's wife" was all that needed to be said to completely identify her. And that nice circle of friends all thought she actually did work for the CIA front company she was said to have worked for, so Rove was DEFINITELY outing her -- AND her CIA front company.

[Imagevision]

32. stupid question!