Nobody is putting the puzzle pieces together...

[kentuck]

Rove leaked an agents name. The agents husband said there was no connection between yellowcake and Niger. Bush put that false hood in his SOTU speech anyway. They lied intentionally. They knew Saddam did not have any WMDs and that he was not a threat. They knew. But they had to convince the country and the world that Saddam was a threat. So they lied us into an unnecessary war. How serious is that? Ask the families of those 1760 GIs killed in that place? They indeed did "fix" the intelligence. That's why they went after Wilson - he did not go along with their plan to fix the intelligence. It is traitorous beyond description. Nixon would be hard-pressed to attempt such a daring move. But nobody is putting the puzzle pieces together,...yet... in my opinion.

[earthside]

1. See the BIG Picture

To put the puzzle pieces together, you've got to have an idea what the BIG picture is ....

So, we shouldn't get too obsessed with just the Rove scandal.

Rove outed Plame to discredit Wilson ... somehow his report on the Niger/uranium connection to Iraq was suspect because his wife worked at the CIA.

But the overarching motive for the crime was to protect the WMD lie at all costs.

That's why the Downing Street Minutes are important. The deceit is unravelling ...

See my commentary at: Earthside.com.

[Syncronaut Seven]

4. One hypothesis is that they wanted Plame out of there.

How could they do their dirty work with dedicated agents on the ground. Disrupting the WMD monitoring network seems to have been a high priority goal of theirs. Remember how they felt about Scott Ritter?

[Desperadoe]

11. That's the real deal

I think the whole purpose of this evil little scheme was to stop whatever Plame was working on. She is the key and not Wilson.

There was something in Iraq that Bushco could not let the public find out about and both the Blix people and the CIA/Plame were hot on the trail. This is why Blix had to be neutralized by pulling the inspectors out of Iraq and going to war and then Plame had to be neutralized by outing her and blowing her cover and her investigation.

Whatever that "something" is it was worth lying to start an illegal war, manufacturing intelligence to minimize the CIA and any legitimate intelligence and brutally imprisoning and torturing certain members of the so-called Al Qua da network and former Iraq insiders.

Everything else is just smoke and mirrors. Find out what was so important that they made a beeline to the oil ministry and the former government offices, all the while ignoring any and all weapons sites.

There was some kind of obvious evidence of a major criminal action on the part of members of the Bush regime inside Baghdad that they had to cover up or destroy because if found, it would have destroyed them.

In other words, good old Saddam was blackmailing the blackmailers and they were beginning to panic. They had to risk it all and try to cover their ass on the crime of illegal invasion and violations of human rights later.

This may never be fully known but it ain't about Rove and Wilson, and you can take that to the bank and deposit it.

[Syncronaut Seven]

16. That IS the real deal

"There was something in Iraq that Bushco could not let the public find out about and both the Blix people and the CIA/Plame were hot on the trail."

I suspect Poppies presidential records are being withheld for the same reasons. Bet dollars to donuts that's what happened to Noriega too.

Nasty, nasty people. Who do you get to take on the mob, when the mob has siezed control.

[Booster]

25. If they would subpoena Halliburton's records of what they were

doing at that time, I think a few crimes would come to light and Cheney would have to have a massive heart attack to explain it. Why is it taking so long for Hussein to come to trial? I really doubt that the Bush cartel wants him to tell all he knows.

[SpiralHawk]

27. Oh what a tangled web we weave

when first we practice to deceive.

N.B. G.W. Bush & cronies

[Al-CIAda]

2. Isn't lying during the State of the Union treason?

I agree and would go further. This SHOULD be tied in w/the DSM by our so-called 'leaders'. Sorry ass wimps who are afraid of telling the TRUTH to a criminal enterprise that has taken control of the government and press.

[carnie_sf]

5. Everything these assholes have done

starting with stealing the 2000 election, through the USA-PATRIOT act and the illegal invasion of Iraq has been treasonous.

[barbaraann]

7. Everything.

I don't even think the English language has a word to describe the breathtaking scope of the evil they have perpetrated.

[KansDem]

12. We do now: "Bush"

Meaning "'intense evil' or 'acting in an intensly evil manner' that cannot be described with any other words."

As a noun: "Ignore world opinion and let's get on with this this bush in Iraq!"

As a verb: "Well, we could have a real 9/11 investigation, but I think we need to bush this in order to hide the facts."

As an adverb: "We have bushly stopped the recount efforts in Florida!"

As an adjective: "The White House mob is both bush and dangerous!"

As a past-participle: "Several bushed operations can be traced to a single White House official."

As an imperative: "Bush you, and every bushing person who looks like you!"

_____
"They lie like a Bush" has become standard parlance in my house.

[barbaraann]

14. Very good.

That works for me. :-)

[donkeyotay]

29. You just stop catapulting that propaganda, ya hear?

Stop yer disassembling right now. Don't you know there's a war on? And praise, this humble servant of God is working hard to make the world safer and peacefuller.

[mwb970]

33. I agree.

Imagine what the history books of the future will say about this time. Thousands of people will get their PhD's studying What Went Wrong With America in the 21st century.

[AndyTiedye]

3. And They BLEW The Network That Actually LOOKED for Illicit WMDs

So now, NOBODY is looking for them. :nuke::nuke:

[WinkyDink]

37. Exactly!!

I posted this thought elsewhere (so many threads we have! LOL!).
Agent Plame and her network knew the TRUTH of the NON-existence of WMD's; Agent Plame's HUSBAND knew the TRUTH of the non-existence of attempts by Iraq to acquire yellow-cake uranium from Niger.

Ergo, DESTROY THEM BOTH.
How conveeeenient for Bushco that these 2 are married. It's a two-fer!

P.S. The agent who got shot protecting the Italian journalist? Maybe he knew something about the forged---by the Italians---"Niger" document? IOW, what bloom posts below (which I just read!)!
This story is WAYYYYY huge, IMMENSE.
I predict some major player will be found dead before it's over.

[bloom]

6. Ledeen and Rove & Plame and Niger

Those are pieces to put together.

And Iran and Iraq and Pakistan and London

[gratuitous]

8. Walk before you run

I don't think the general public is willing to contemplate the magnitude of the fuck-up the corrupt Bush administration has perpetrated on us. They're trying to keep too many balls in the air right now, and the Plame matter is the bowling ball right now.

We'll lob in other Brunswicks as public opinion gets used to the idea of the Bush adminsitration's corruption. Lord knows there's plenty more bowling balls on the rack.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. We're starting to. I put a lot of that in my LTTE, and so are many others

[bloom]

10. Nicola Calipari (of SISMI -"executed") & “yellowcake”, ROVE

"Soon after the September 11, 2001 attacks, the Italian intelligence service, SISMI, will provide the US with information it has about the trip and will suggest that the motive behind the visit was to discuss the future purchase of uranium oxide, also known as “yellowcake”.<5>

http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Plame_Leak_timeline

A number of SISMI agents and assets have also been tied to the group, including Francesco Pazienza, an SISMI agent, and Rocco Martino, who said he was the source of the faked Niger yellowcake uranium documents that were laundered through Rome and used as proof by the Bush White House that Saddam Hussein was shopping for uranium in Niger. That charge prompted the CIA to send Ambassador Joseph Wilson to Niger, resulting in a retaliatory outing of Wilson's wife as a covert CIA operative and exposure by the White House of the CIA's covert weapons of mass destruction counter-proliferation network.

Italian sources report that the Milan case against the Americans and the Genoa case against the private Italian network may be linked in another way. The reported CIA station chief in Milan, Honduran-born Robert Seldon Lady (whose name may be an alias and whose CIA connections may be incorrect or overstated) was, prior to his assignment in Milan, in charge of a covert American unit in Honduras, El Salvador, and Nicaragua charged with penetrating anti-American groups and taking them over. It is now believed that Lady was in charge of a similar operation to turn Abu Omar and others into intelligence assets for the Americans. Abu Omar, according to Albanian intelligence sources, assisted the U.S. with intelligence on Islamic militants in Albania.

It is also believed that the late deputy SISMI chief, Nicola Calipari, became aware of information in Iraq that linked the control of terrorists in Iraq and elsewhere to a "third level" in "an anti-terrorism country." Calipari was shot to death by U.S. troops while transporting freed Italian hostage and journalist Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad International Airport. The U.S. ruled the shooting an "accident."

Abu Omar may have become a hot potato for the Americans after Calipari discovered links between the Americans and terrorist groups in Iraq and elsewhere—and a decision was made to conduct a "rendition" of the imam to Egypt to get him out of circulation. Abu Omar, also said to have been a credible intelligence source, may have also become aware of U.S. connections to terrorist groups.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/070605Madsen/070605madsen.html

[flpoljunkie]

13. Wilson's trip in February, 2002.His op-ed on July 6, 2003, after war began

Wilson was, however, not the only person who had gone to Niger and reported back to the Iraq Survey Group in the White House what they did not want to hear.

"TRAITORS IN THE WHITE HOUSE" by Will Pitt

http://www.populist.com/03.19.pitt.html

Joseph Wilson was the man dispatched to Niger in February of 2002 by the CIA, after Vice President Dick Cheney asked the CIA to figure out whether there was any substance to the charge that Iraq was attempting to procure uranium "yellow cake" from that nation for the purpose of starting a nuclear weapons program. Ambassador Wilson went, investigated and returned eight days later to state flatly that the evidence was garbage. He has claimed since that his analysis was one of three intelligence reports debunking the Niger story. Ambassador Wilson told this to Cheney's office, the CIA, the State Department and the National Security Council. Despite the fact that Wilson made it clear that these allegations were untrue -- it was revealed that the "evidence" to support the Niger uranium charge was a pile of crudely forged documents -- George W. Bush used the Niger uranium evidence dramatically in his 2003 State of the Union address.

In July, Ambassador Wilson went very public, criticizing the White House for using evidence to support war that they knew was patently false. One week later, Robert Novak reported that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, was a CIA operative. As it turns out, two senior White House officials cold-called six different journalists and informed them of Valerie Plame's status as a CIA agent, according to an anonymous administration official quoted by the Washington Post. None of the journalists ran the story. That same administration official was quoted about these revelations as saying, "Clearly, it was meant purely and simply for revenge." Joseph Wilson likewise charges that this act was done as an act of revenge for his vocal criticism of George W. Bush and the administration's actions leading up to the Iraq war. Specifically, he views Karl Rove as being possibly involved in, or at least condoning, the cutting down of his wife.

The facts of this story are singularly grotesque. Taken at the top layer, you have a White House that appears perfectly willing to go after the family members of its critics. Valerie Plame's career is destroyed, period. The act itself displays a level of viciousness that is dangerous to the functioning of this, or any, democracy.

http://www.populist.com/03.19.pitt.html

[Nederland]

18. Wilson is a Liar

...and Democrats are stupid if they pin their hopes on him in this case. There are better ways a demonstrating the this administration is a corrupt bunch than relying on the words of a man that was completely discredited by a bipartisan Senate investigation.

Yes, Rove and Bush need to be held accountable for what they have done, but please don't try and use Wilson to do it. He is damaged goods at this point and too flawed a messanger to be worth anything.

[flpoljunkie]

21. It is my understanding that the minority report signed by only 3 of 9 R's

on the Senate Intelligence Committee trashed Joe Wilson with No Democrats signing on. Their accusations are suspect--both partisan and without foundation.

Wilson not a perfect messenger, but what he wrote in that op-ed really pissed off those in the White House who had lied us into war in Iraq.

[Nederland]

24. Yes, but certain facts are indisputable

1) He lied about his wife's connection to his trip.
2) He lied about seeing the forged Niger documents.

No one can deny these facts, and these facts make him a liar. There are plenty of better ways at getting to Rove and Bush, and defending a proven liar simply takes time and energy away from that task.

[flpoljunkie]

26. Your "facts" are anything but indisputable. Read from Wilson's op-ed.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm

From "What I Didn't Find in Africa" by Josesph C. Wilson, 4th
July 6, 2003

In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.

snip...

(As for the actual memorandum, I never saw it. But news accounts have pointed out that the documents had glaring errors — they were signed, for example, by officials who were no longer in government — and were probably forged. And then there's the fact that Niger formally denied the charges.)

As for your other charge regarding his wife...

The entire contretemps at the White House this week centers on whether Mr. Rove tried to discredit Mr. Wilson by suggesting that his mission to Niger was the product of nepotism, and that Ms. Wilson had arranged for it. Why a mission to Niger would be such a plum assignment is still a mystery, but the Senate Intelligence Committee, in a report last year, quotes a State Department official as saying that Ms. Wilson had suggested sending her husband. She denies it. (Wonder who that State Department official could have been?)

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/13/politics/13memo.html ?...

[Nederland]

34. LOL

As proof that Wilson isn't a liar, you quote his book?

Please...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html

[flpoljunkie]

36. That's not from his book, that's the op-ed he wrote on July 6, 2003.

Read what Larry Johnson wrote in my other reply to you.

[Nederland]

39. You're missing the point

You are using Wilson's words to prove that Wilson isn't a liar. Doesn't that strike you as a bit ridiculous?

[flpoljunkie]

40. And you are taking the words of Senate GOP Republican hacks who are WH

rubber stampers. Will put Joe Wilson before them any day of the week.

[atre]

51. Read more carefully

He's using Wilson's words on subjects on which you are saying he is lying to prove that he is not. There is a big difference.

In effect, he's showing that Wilson did not say the things you said he said.

[calimary]

44. And you believe everything you read in the Washington Post?

The Post's coverage has, itself, been compromised, and suspect, MANY times in this era of bush. In their desperate jones for access to the "in" crowd in the White House, they sought to report only one side in the run-up to the war (as did most of the rest of the mainstream press) and any voices objecting to the war or citing conflicting information that punched holes in the administration's case for war were either ignored or given perhaps a sentence or two WAY down in the copy, buried on page A-23 or some other no-man's land where it would very likely not be seen. The Post has since admitted this (and rather sheepishly, too), although not very loudly. Further, when I see the Susan Schmidt byline, I automatically hesitate. She's been a water-carrier for this White House for some time now.

I'm not sure the case that Wilson is a liar is proven. I haven't seen anything in his writings or his various grillings on camera that indicate he's telling anything untrue. On the other hand, you do have to consider the large collectives of people who are trying to pile on him and sling mud, and THEIR track record for "truth-telling" - which is about as valid as bush's is. MANY repeat and unrepentent liars, cheats, and snakes calling Wilson and his wife a liar. And I should believe them...

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy...

[Nederland]

59. No

Do you believe everything you read at DU?

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. And as proof that he IS a liar we... what... ignore what he says?

If he says "I didn't see the memos" and the truth is he didn't see the memos, then in what sense is he a liar?

[flpoljunkie]

31. You might also read what Larry Johnson, former CIA, has to say about it...

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/13/04720/9340

But don't take my word for it, read the biased Senate intelligence committee report.  Even though it was slanted to try to portray Joe in the worst possible light this fact emerges on page 52 of the report:  According to the US Ambassador to Niger (who was commenting on Joe's visit in February 2002), "Ambassador Wilson reached the same conclusion that the Embassy has reached that it was highly unlikely that anything between Iraq and Niger was going on."  Joe's findings were consistent with those of the Deputy Commander of the European Command, Major General Fulford.

The Republicans insist on the lie that Val got her husband the job.  She did not.  She was not a division director, instead she was the equivalent of an Army major.  Yes it is true she recommended her husband to do the job that needed to be done but the decision to send Joe Wilson on this mission was made by her bosses.

At the end of the day, Joe Wilson was right.  There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.   It was the Bush Administration that pushed that lie and because of that lie Americans are dying.  Shame on those who continue to slander Joe Wilson while giving Bush and his pack of liars a pass.  That's the true outrage.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/13/04720/9340

[Nederland]

38. Great Idea

But don't take my word for it, read the biased Senate intelligence committee report.

An excellent idea. Let's see what the report says:

Section II.B

February 19, 2002, CPD hosted a meeting with the former ambassador, intelligence analysts from both the CIA and INR, and several individuals from the DO’s Africa and CPD divisions. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the merits of the former ambassador traveling to Niger. An INR analyst’s notes indicate that the meeting was “apparently convened by wife who had the idea to dispatch to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue.” The former ambassador’s wife told Committee staff that she only attended the meeting to introduce her husband and left after about three minutes.

Section II.U

The former ambassador also told Committee staff that he was the source of a Washington Post article ("CIA Did Not Share Doubt on Iraq Data; Bush Used Report of Uranium Bid," June 12, 2003) which said, "among the Envoy’s conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because “the dates were wrong and the names were wrong." Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the "the dates were wrong and the names were wrong" when he had never seen the reports. The former ambassador said that he may have "misspoken" to the reporter when he said he concluded the documents were "forged".


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/senateiraqreport.pdf

[flpoljunkie]

43. Could not load file. Could the part you cite be the Republican minority

report, signed by only 3 out of 9 Republicans and by not one Democrat.

The INR analyst is less than definitive when he says "apparently convened by wife who had the idea to dispatch to use his contacts to sort our the Iraq-Niger issue."

He also notes she introduced her husband and left after about three minutes.

That she may have suggested to her cohorts at the CIA that he may be appropriate to send to Niger because of his contacts there--I don't see what your problem is about that. It means squat.

Also remember what Joe Wilson said in his op-ed:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm

From "What I Didn't Find in Africa" by Josesph C. Wilson, 4th

July 6, 2003

In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.

snip...

(As for the actual memorandum, I never saw it. But news accounts have pointed out that the documents had glaring errors — they were signed, for example, by officials who were no longer in government — and were probably forged. And then there's the fact that Niger formally denied the charges.)

[calimary]

45. This would be enlightening to read, too, perhaps:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1925860

Further, the majority on this committee, specifically republi-CONS, do have an axe to grind here. I'm not sure many of these folks come by their positions in the most impeccable and nonpartisan ways. They can be expected to circle the wagons. Further, any traps they apparently tried to lay for Wilson may have been outlined for them by our friend the master strategist - a guy named kkkarl something...

[calimary]

46. As might this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1926872#1926878

[Beaverhausen]

30. What did he lie about?

[bloom]

32. Sounds like right wing spin talking eom

[Nederland]

35. Maybe so

And I suppose that if Repubicans told you 2 + 2 = 4 you'd deny that?

Whether or not something is true has nothing to do with who is saying it. That's a basic rule of rational debate that apparently you don't understand.

[bloom]

42. Some people believe the Republicans and some people don't.

I would need another reason to believe something than because they said it.

Apparently you don't.

[Nederland]

53. Some people are smart and some people aren't

Smart people judge things by the facts. Stupid people make judgements based solely upon who said them. Which are you?

[rman]

54. And some people think they are smart.

Now, what is Wilson supposed to have lied about?

[Nederland]

56. Read post #24 (nt)

[rman]

61. disputed. n/t

-

[bloom]

57. How can you assume that what Republicans are saying are facts?

What makes them facts? People repeating them over and over? What?

[Nederland]

58. I don't

I read the transcripts of Senate hearings and Committee reports. How do you determine what the truth is? So far it looks like you determine the truth by listening to what the Republicans say and then say the exact opposite. Not exactly a logical dispassionate approach to truth seeking IMHO...

[kentuck]

60. What exactly did Wilson "lie" about ?

Do you beleive his wife had the authority to send him on such a mission? Or did she only recommend him to someone else? What other lies can you tell us about?

[Nederland]

63. see post #24 (nt)

[WinkyDink]

41. If Wilson is such a known and proven liar

why are Repugs spending any more time on defaming him?
Cry me a river.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Syncronaut Seven]

17. Duck!

.

[Vinnie From Indy]

20. LOL

It looks like someone has been doing drugs with Rush Limbaugh again!

You forgot to add that square is really round, light is really dark and monkeys are gonna fly outta your ass any minute now.

[Marnieworld]

19. go to smirkingchimp.com

lots of articles today putting the pieces together.

[XemaSab]

22. Succinctly put.

And the DSM is the string that ties the package together.

[kentuck]

50. I agree...

The DSM ties it all together. Rove is further proof that the DSM is very legitimate. Bush's SOTU speech is further proof that it is legitimate. Their efforts to destroy Joe Wilson are further proof. They were intentionally lying to get us into the war in Iraq and they intentionally lied before the UN, Colin Powell, and they knew Saddam had no WMDs and no army to speak of. They intentionally lied. They did not believe Saddam had WMDs. They were almost certan that he did not. They lied to the American people and to Congress. How serious is it??????????????????????????????????/

[XemaSab]

52. Uh... very serious?

I think the big missing pieces are who Rove's informant was and who told Rove to leak the info (if they're not the same person). Rove's not a moran, and he would know how serious what he was doing was, and I can't see him deciding on his own initiative to find the information and leak it, simply because there's a lot of risk there with no visible gain.

[Ariana Celeste]

23. They are discussing this in congress right now, c-span

it's sounding good to me.

[bunny planet]

28. Yes, Bush lied in the SOTU, that in itself is breaking his oaths of office

and is grounds for impeachment I believe (someone who knows differently, please correct me if I'm wrong). Now we just have to prove it, hopefully Fitz can.

[patrioticliberal]

47. I can't post a new thread

But JOE WILSON will be on the TODAY SHOW tomorrow..

[calimary]

48. Soon enough you will be able to do so. And Welcome to DU!!

Glad you're here - to get to WORK!!! :hi:

[patrioticliberal]

49. Thanks for the welcome

I've been on Kos for a bit.

[rniel]

55. Most americans

Are completely clueless. They don't read anything but people magazine to find out what JLo is up to. They might know one little piece of this, but to put together 3 puzzle pieces of information together is just too much to expect of them.

[Jackpine Radical]

64. About a week ago I started a thread

saying essentially that the whole picture is so huge, so frightening, that the mind rebels against seeing the whole thing at once. It stretches from 9-11 to the Italian mob to, for all I know, the JFK assassination. Once you open Pandora's box, one HELL of a lot of stuff could come flying out. For example, if Bush goes down in flames, all those Presidential papers he sealed going all the way back to Reagan and Poppy are gonna come open. Nobody--NOBODY--is ready for that. Except maybe a few of us long-time tinfoilers.