To Kerry and Reid: Please Don't ask for Rove's Resignation....

[Laura PourMeADrink]

IMHO, Rove is a slimy bastard. And he is diabolical. He is into the Plame fiasco neck deep. BUT, he has had plenty of time to cover his ass and figure out a way not to get indicted.

I don't understand why we can not wait for the GJ to conclude before demanding his resignation. What is the rush, Democrats? Why not wait?

Think strategically. We can gain and not have a thing to lose by waiting for the GJ to conclude.

Wouldn't a cautious, reasoned statement like "We would hope that the most trusted advisor to the president is not involved in a serious felony, but we believe that people are innocent until proven guilty and we will wait until the Grand Jury reaches a conclusion before commenting."

By taking this angle, no one can accuse us of playing politics like they are already.

[garybeck]

1. we don't need the grand jury

the documents have been released.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

9. I know, but they might not technically prove, in a court, that he

knowingly outted her. I KNOW HE DID, but proving that in court is another matter. Let's say they do prove it. I would wish that more than anyone. We still accomplish the same thing - getting rid of him. But waiting adds one benefit -- it makes us look less politically motivated.

[Al-CIAda]

14. You are quite naive. Speak out with AUTHORITY and CONVICTION!

ALL dems (who have the balls) should sing a chorus of TREASON, LYING US INTO WAR, TORTURE,etc...


SHOUT the TRUTH and NEVER back down.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

16. I AGREE with you 100%. I am not saying to be quiet, I am saying

not to ask for Rove's resignation. And I am not naive, thank you very much.

[laugle]

29. From one Laura to another, I understand what

you are saying. I constantly have this knawing feeling, that the Bush administration is laughing at the dems demands and petitions, and dumping them right into the garbage! It might very well be a good idea to think more strategic, rather then just making demands that we all know will fall on deaf ears. Certainly, when there is more concrete proof of Rove's treasonist acts, we should all demand his resignation otherwise, you are correct, in the RW spinning it as "just politics".

[Laura PourMeADrink]

36. I think the same way about the petitions. I wish we had a grander

more sophisticated plan to oust these crooks. I guess that is what happens when you are the minority party - you really don't have the benefit of a true leadership that you can follow in a unified way to carry a consistent strategy and message. Repugs are very, very good at that. To a fault. I am very optimistic though that this is the beginning of the end...

[laugle]

48. I just heard the dems want to pull Rove's

national security credentials, that sounds like a much better idea than asking for his resignation. I think the public would agree with that on both sides, since it is already known that the cockroach, as I call him, talked about Valerie Plame. Most of all, the dems must keep a united front, it is one of the few options they still possess. Anyway, you took alot of heat for your post, and I don't understand why people don't understand that you are only referring to resignation, and still believe that we should keep up the heat!

I couldn't help but think, when I saw Hillary and Kerry, that both of them may run for president. It just looked way too political.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

55. I agree "too political" w/ Kerry and Hillary. It was just too easy

to do and didn't accomplish much. Maybe now that the press has got this story hot, everyone will back off a little bit and let nature take it's course.

I don't care about getting heat here - not one iota. What's bad though, is when you are totally surprised by the way what you say is taken and you wish you had articulated more effectively.

peace

[laugle]

58. Laura, you articulated just fine my dear,

some people just have a thick head! You just never know, maybe people skim the posts, or they are just tired. The one that said you were naieve got my dander up a bit. It was so obvious to me, that you are extremely bright, thoughtful and articulate. Anyway, sometimes you connect, sometimes you don't! That's life, right! Peace to you, and by the way, I like your name. LOL

[NewJeffCT]

2. If James Carville or a Senior Clinton official had done it...

There would be RW demands for mass firings on the news every night. Having Kerry & Clinton call for his resignation keeps the story in the news even more.

[Mass]

3. I understand your thinking,

but it seems a little late for that. 17 Congresspeople, led by Conyers and Waxman also asked for his firing, as did Dean, in addition of a few senators.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

13. You're right. The thought really just dawned on me when I saw

Kerry and Hillary on tv, asking for the resignation. It struck me then, why? Maybe some of it was good to keep the story going. But it's red-hot now - no need to add the partisanship anymore.

[napi21]

I look at this a little differently. Show the public that Shrub will

defend Rove to the very end! When Rove goes down, he's leave a giant smear on Shrub too!

I think calling for his firing or resignation is fine. We all know Shrub won't do it, so let some of the yuck rub off on Shrub and the rest of the slime.

[blondeatlast]

49. But notice Shrub subtly distancing himself--remember last week's heated

DEFENSE of his "friend" Alberto Gonzales?

I certainly didn't hear ANY defense of the man largely responsible for Shrub's occupation of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. today.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

54. no, you are right ! I wonder if that is a conscious effort - hell it was

probably something Rove told him to do. Stay clear of me (I am innocent) It will make you look good now and later

[LSparkle]

4. I agree -- who knows what the Grand Jury will come up with?

It may be even sweeter than just having the Rat resign (or be fired). This investigation has been going on for over two years, and I predict there's more to this than currently meets the eye.

"Let him dangle ... "

[berni_mccoy]

5. Bush has said NUMEROUS times that

If anyone in his administration is involved in the leak (not necessarily found guilty), that he would FIRE THEM.

Rove is definitely involved, and we don't need a GJ to determine that for us.

Bush needs to make good on his promise.

[endarkenment]

6. Uh, no.

It is now uncontested that Rove was a source of the information that revealed that Plame was a covert CIA operative. Rove may not have broken the law - that is an issue for the grand jury - but he has committed a gross ethical violation and he needs to be fired for doing so. Bush is already on record stating that whoever is responsible should be fired. He needs to be held to account.

We endlessly worry about the nuances and strategy of opposition. Screw that. Go after them at every vulnerable point they have. Put them on the defensive. Force them to react. Stop worrying about the what-ifs. They are starting to panic and it is good to behold.

[Zenlitened]

11. "Put them on the defensive. Force them to react. Stop worrying..."

"... about the what-ifs."

Absolutely. :applause:

[Laura PourMeADrink]

15. Uh, yes ! I don't give a shit about their strategy. I am talking our

strategy. The longer this whole thing drags out the more we gain. Besides, this is the best time, IMO, since the election. Savor it !

[endarkenment]

17. ok color me confused

we should lay off rove to drag out the whole thing? Is that what you are saying? I thought you were saying we should lay off rove 'cause it smacks of partisanship.

Screw the 'smacks of partisanship' nonsense. Everything they do smacks of partisanship and class warfare, and then we run around worring if we are being to partisan or not coddling the rich and elites enough.

As to drawing it out - you do that by keeping their feet in the fire, not by hoping that the criminal prosecution will do it for you. The administration is being hounded right now by a press corp that has grown balls and a democratic party that is finally up for a fight. lay off? no way.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

22. sorry I confused you. No, I don't want ANYONE to lay off - just

not ask for the resignation - since he will probably weasel out somehow.

I love the way the democrats and the press are hammering on this. We know there are other crimes besides the particular accusation against Rove. Would love for it to turn into - why the hell was the administration pushing so damn hard and going to such great lengths to defend a decision to go to war?

[still_one]

7. I disagre, we need to keep the pressure up

if we don't the media will not pursue it, and keep it alive

[blm]

8. Kerry demanded Rove be fired 3 weeks ago. This leak just added another

grievance to illustrate that Rove is bad for America.

[TayTay]

10. Because he could, theoretically, damage someone else

and should be removed from his position before he has a chance to do it again. Rove has proved that he cannot be trusted with this position of power and incredible influence.

I applaud Reid and Kerry and Clinton and everyone else who has called for his firing. How many outed agents does it take before the PResident of the United States realizes that he has a damaging security leak and ought to take action and eliminate it. The safety and security of the nation should not have to wait for this basic act of common sense.

[jarnocan]

12. Betrayal!

I just signed this petition telling the Bush administration to come clean on the CIA leak.
With your help, we can keep the pressure on ...
<http://www.democrats.org/page/petition/clean/klbui>

Quote:
George H.W. Bush said "... I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors." That's from a speech on April 26, 1999.
Someone in the BushInc. did a (from an e-mailed petition) from Howard Dean)
Quote:
"treacherous, potentially criminal thing: a senior administration official leaked the identity of a covert CIA operative. They endangered the agent's life and compromised our national security in a time of war."

so many petitions and open letters to BUSH!!! - <http://www.workingforchange.com/act...fm?itemid=19325>
<http://action.truemajority.org/campaign/rovemustgo>
<http://www.moveonpac.org/firerove/> plust the pink slip one and one at care 2 . kind of funny! I guess we just have to keep doing whatever we can.
<http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/rove.php>

[LittleClarkie]

18. Kerry was calling for his resignation based on

that "Liberal" comment he made a couple of weeks ago. The GJ stuff is more to add to the pile I think as far as he's concerned.

I wonder if it isn't having the opposite effect. Bush will likely chain himself to Rove, with his penchant for digging in his heels and being stubborn.

And the longer Bush shows he's more loyal to Rove than to the country, the better.

I dunno. We could second-guess this until the cows come home. If they took the diplomatic tack, some would be crying that they should be showing spine. Now that they're calling for Rove's head, some are saying that it should be more diplomatic. Eh. They can't win.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

19. I agree - I love the "showing some spine" - I was just referring to

asking for the resignation - since I think Rover will probably weasel out somehow.

I also love the way the press is acting. Last night Jon Stewart had the funniest line, showing the press conference, something like, "Oh my god, someone's gone and replace the press with real reporters"

[pgh_dem]

23. My 2 cents: They're winning with me by calling for firing/resignation

And especially by circulating that petition to fire Rove via email.

Still waiting for Kerry to turn into that Incredible Hulk, but what he's doing right now is mighty fine by me.

[scbluevoter]

20. To take a page from their playbook. . .

the reason he should not resign is because he becomes the rallying point for our '06 and '08 campaigns. He makes'em all look bad. By all I mean all republicans since they will stand by him 'til the end. Many repubs have gone on record saying that they never wanted Clinton removed from office; the impeachment proceedings were a means to an end. As much as I knew all the "bring integrity back to the WH" talk was all BS. . . I have to admit, in 2000 it was a damn good slogan for the 'pubs. History is so symmetrical!!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

24. very well said, and welcome to DU. Drag it out, the longer the better.

[lancdem]

21. Bush said he would fire anyone who was a leaker in this case

Rove obviously is, so Dems are trying to make Bush keep his word.

[kerrygoddess]

25. This makes no sense

He can still be prosected, fired or not. He's implicated in a federal offense and should at least be on leave!

[Imagevision]

31. I totally agree- don't fire Rove - let this be the start of the fall of

the Bush administration - Novak said he got his Plaine info from 2 senior WH officials! -- we should not be satisfied until we at least get the BOTH of them -- for openers.

[katinmn]

41. It will be easier to prosecute him if he's out of the safety of the WH

Now he's protected, insulated.

If he's fired and out from the protective wings, he's extremely vulnerable.

[welshTerrier2]

26. I agree; Democrats should NOT call for Rove's firing ...

i just read Howard Dean's excellent comments (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1926404) on the "high treason" incident ... i've also read all the replies in this thread ...

my conclusion? I agree with the BP; calling for Rove to be fired right now is not the best path for Democrats ...

Why?

because most Americans, no matter how much they believe Rove is guilty, believe that he should be entitled to his day in court ... how would you like to be fired from your job over allegations made against you before you had a trial? so, politically, i think calling for Rove's firing does a disservice to Democrats ... it shows disrespect for the legal system designed to protect us ...

if you haven't read Dean's comments, you really should ... it might help clarify where i'm coming from on this ...

I think it's fine for Democrats to talk about Rove being a target of the GJ ... I think it's even fine for Democrats to ask that he be put on leave until the matter is resolved ... both of those options respect the rule of law and respect the ideal that a citizen is innocent until proven guilty ... Rove, who may be guilty of treason, a crime punishable by death and a crime that may well have done serious damage to covert CIA operations, should not be allowed to remain in a powerful position where he could potentially do further damage to the country ... so, a leave is one thing, but calling for firing absent a trial may not sit well with the public ...

finally, rather than focus on Rove himself, and other WH jackasses, i think our hand is strengthened much more, as Howard Dean showed, by using prior comments from bush, gillespie and several former, republican CIA operatives to push for getting to the truth ... bush stated: "I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors."

some have raised the "damned if they do and damned if they don't" argument ... they say if Democrats hadn't called for Rove to be fired, they would be accused of having no spine ... Democrats can show plenty of spine by demanding that the WH cover-up be ended immediately ... they can demand that Rove be forced to take a leave of absence because he is being investigated for possible treason against the US and that it would be inappropriate to allow him to remain in a position of power risking the welfare of the nation until the issue is resolved ...

good politics is about making the right call for the country and protecting the civil rights of all Americans, even jackasses like Rove ... calling for his firing, while more than understandable, will not serve our best interests ... and so, I agree with LauraPackYourBags' conclusion ... and I admire her courage in raising an issue that was likely to be very unpopular here on DU ...

[Mass]

27. Dean also called for Rove to be fired

Both are not incompatible.

[welshTerrier2]

28. but he did not in the statement he just issued

i think the statement he just issued (see link in previous post) was the best line for Democrats to take ... note that he opted NOT to call for Rove's firing in that statement ... this was a sound, political judgment; not an oversight ...

btw, my argument did NOT rest on whether Dean did or did NOT think calling for Rove's firing was a good idea ... i provided my reasons for taking that position ... i wish you had responded to the points i made rather than solely focussing on Dean's past comments ...

btw, here's something i should have been clearer about in my previous post ... even if Rove is NOT found guilty of a crime, if the evidence shows he was guilty of extremely poor judgment in the exercise of his official duties, he should be fired ... i did NOT mean to say that only the outcome of his trial, guilty or innocent, should form the basis of whether he can remain in his position ...

[Laura PourMeADrink]

30. You articulate so well what I wish I could have said. Except, (another

likely unpopular idea) I really do not believe Rove et al were purposely trying to out her as an agent for the sole purpose of putting her or her colleagues at risk. Not that they aren't evil enough, but that doing that would be enormously and overtly treasonous.

I think they were only outing her role in Niger to (1) discredit Joe and to (2) discredit the CIA who was not playing their trumped up intelligence game. The fact that it put her and colleagues in physical jeopardy, IMHO, could have been an unknown consequence at the time they hatched the scheme.

I would like to see democratic spokespeople concentrate on the far bigger picture. The orchestrated efforts to go to any lengths to perpetuate their case for war. These efforts might not have meant much now if they had been right, and Saddam had really been an imminent threat. But he wasn't. Pull the puzzle pieces together. These actions plus DSM show the bigger crime - murder.

[welshTerrier2]

35. discrediting the CIA

i agree that outing Plame to "punish her and her husband" was not at all the primary objective ... the real goal was to muzzle those in the CIA who would not go along with the lies leading up to the invasion of Iraq ... committees investigating whether CIA analysts "were intimidated and pressured to produce the evidence bush needed to support his call for invasion" ... the answer they received was "no" ... no one in the WH would have been that stupid or that direct ... it's really not their style ... what they chose instead amounted to the total collapse of Plame's operation ... far more effective, wouldn't you say?

the Plame case was indeed about revenge but it was not solely to punish Plame and Wilson ... they were little more than pawns being sacrificed in the chessgame ... the real mission was to squash the opposition, all of it, inside the CIA ... oh, and btw, it worked ... and so we went to war on "bad intelligence" ... that's because the "good intelligence" was bound and gagged by a lying gang of international outlaws ...

and to the larger point you raised, there is no difference at all between the Plame abuses and the DSM ... that IS EXACTLY the story ... both are about the same cherry-picking and manufacturing of information to serve the objectives of the imperialists ... each and every member of the bush administration who was a party to this should be tried first in an American court and then in the Hague ...

these evil people have no respect for the ideals of America ... they have done more damage to the American image in the world than we will be able to repair in a generation ... let's hope the bastards rot in jail for the rest of their lives ...

[gulfcoastliberal]

32. I think waiting 2 years is long enough for Fitzgerald to figure this out

And it's time the dems started speaking out on this treasonous SOB. The pukes have played the most disgusting brand of politics over the last 5-6 years and the dems have always taken the high road. What have we gained from it? Nothing.

[ScamUSA.Com]

33. agreed... f'ck his resignation I want the f'cker in handcuffs

[katinmn]

34. NO. If we don't demand, scream & stomp, this will get swept under the rug!

We can't wait for the media, the legal system or for Bush to just do the right thing.

Caution and politeness have gotten us nowhere -- or haven't you noticed?

I say fire the scum. Then he doesn't have access to WH legal aid. Then he WILL stand trial for treason.

As long as he's in that office, he's insulated.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

37. I would have said the same thing a month ago - but now the press

has hooked onto to this - maybe because it involves some of their own. This story is red-hot. At this time, keep the criticism up but let others call for the resignation. Or do like Welsh Terrier says - ask for him to step aside until GJ over.

Very interesting point about the legal aid. What do you mean "he's insulated" ?

[katinmn]

40. WH legal counsel report to him.

Can you imagine how many lawyers are working on his case on his behalf? Best lawyers money can buy. And plenty of them.

The press will be focused on this up until the next blonde gets kidnapped.

[WinkyDink]

38. I've been thinking this.

Rove keeps this story in the news.
Buh-bye, and listen to the huge sigh of relief by the media, who will say, "Well! Glad that THAT'S over! Now, where is Paris Hilton?"

[Imagevision]

39. I agree with Howard dean - and he agree's with George Bush

<snip> This is bigger than politics -- every American should agree that this administration needs to come clean immediately about this leak, and any White House official’s role in it. The only way to pressure this administration is to show that Americans will not tolerate this -- and that every American regardless of party will unite and publicly demand that they come clean.

[IndianaGreen]

42. Is the DLC afraid to draw Republican blood?

All hear from your post is the sound of Vichy Democrats. Ooooh, let's not upset our Republican brethren lest they become offended.

There is blood in the water, and it is Republican blood! Let's go sharks, let us feed on the wicked!

[Mass]

44. deleted

[LittleClarkie]

45. I thought you normally considered Kerry a "Vichy Democrat"

And yet, in this context, he wouldn't be, since he is one of the ones calling for blood.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, suggesting that, because the OP wants to react strategically he/she is DLC or somesuch, jumps that shark.

[NMDemDist2]

46. I didn't read the OP as not going for blood, what I read was a suggestion

to make them bleed longer and harder (rhetorically of course, no physical harm just good old down and dirty politics)

I think perhaps you misread the OP's intent?

[IndianaGreen]

47. Perhaps I did misread the OP's intent, but there is no doubt

that there is blood in the water and that we must feast on the Republican scum.

[LittleClarkie]

50. Still, it was alittle bizaare, as I said

because you brought in the DLC and Vichy Democrats, which unless I miss my guess, you consider Kerry as being. No?

[IndianaGreen]

51. Kerry has demanded that Rove be fired

That act alone strikes Kerry off the list of Vichy Democrats. There is such a thing as political redemption. Those that voted for PATRIOT and IWR can always redeem themselves by coming to their senses and voting to restore our civil liberties and bringing the troops home ASAP.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

52. Feast Away ! I am. (The OP). I have not felt this good since the

afternoon in Nov 04 when I thought Kerry would win.

[IndianaGreen]

60. Hello there, fellow Yankee fan!

Your superior intellect has been proven by your support for the best team in baseball, even when they trail the Orioles!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

62. I love it ! Yes ! Go Yankees ! Not too bad - what 2 1/2 out ? BTW

On my cable, there is going to be a week of free Major League package baseball starting tonight !

[Laura PourMeADrink]

53. thanks - yes, yes, bleed longer !

[AndyTiedye]

43. Whether or Not He is Provably Criminal...

...just the actions he has admitted to justify terminating his employment.

[paulk]

56. I understand what you're saying, but

calling for Rove's resignation points up that Bush himself said he would fire anyone who was involved in the outing of Plame. Drawing attention to this puts Bush's credibility (or lack of it) front and center.

The investigation will continue even if Rove is fired.

[genius]

57. Whose side are you on?

I don't trust people who try to hold Democrats back from doing the right thing.

[carpetbagger]

59. The facts are already manifest and admitted.

The best case scenario already involves Rove having acted with reckless indifference to national security and important secrets.

The best case scenario already involves Rove having lied to the press.

The best case scenario already involves Rove having either lied to Bush, or Bush having lied to cover up Rove's dealings.

While we need not to put our feet in our mouths, we also need to realize that "they're playing politics" doesn't get much attention with the electorate. Sure, Tweety might burst some blood vessels, but these charges, based on what's already known about the scandal, are quite enough to resonate with enough truth to carry itself.

The other images that come to mind are Kerry's failure to respond to the Vietnam smears, the image of the GOP saying "let's wait until Gray Davis is indicted", and an image of Bush talking about how justice has had its chance, the process works, he's asked for Rove's resignation, end of story.

This is not solely a legal matter. It is intrinsically a political matter, that the administration is coddling a man who has already shown himself to be capable of intentionally damaging American security.

[democracyindanger]

61. Drag it out? You can't be serious.

Leave a guy in place who did irreparable damage to our national security intelligence apparatus for political games? Great. So he's still in the White House, still has his security clearance, and can wreak more havoc.

Crazy.