I need your help fellow DU'ers

[navvet]

last night I was in a discussion with very old and good friends (we are all over the age of 45). One of whom is very conservative and thinks that Tommy Thompson was the best thing to ever happen to Wisconsin and Bush 2 and Reagan were the best Presidents in the last 60 years.

We got around to the Plame affair and he said that he did not give a fig about it, that the Dems should STFU about it. That if they did not care about clean government when Hillary was misusing FBI files at the White House and the those billing records just magically appeared from an angel in the White House one night, then they have no right to rant and rave right now.

He said Bush should tell the Democrats to stuff it in a hole, that this was all a political witch hunt because Rove continues to out smart them.

I told you he was very conservative.

I have known him since age 14 and we have a rule; no name calling or harsh language.

How should I go about refuting him.

He had several others nodding in agreement with him.

I tried to reason that Rove did break the law of at least facilitated the breaking of the law but it was a hard sell.

A lot just did not seem to care at all one way or another.
:spank: :wow: :dem: :shrug:

[eleny]

1. What is more important to them - country or party?

That's what I'll be asking people.

[Dhalgren]

2. I hate to be cold, but get new friends...

[Beaver Tail]

6. My sentiments exactly.

[ET Awful]

3. Simply point out to him that the Democrats did NOT start this

investigation. The CIA requested it, and Fitzgerald is pursuing it. The Democrats did not say Rove outed Plame, that was said in Grand Jury testimony by a journalist who tried to protect his sources until threatened with jail time. The Democrats had nothing to do with those threats and nothing to do with his testimony.

Sorry, but what Democrats say in reaction to an investigation initiated by the CIA, encouraged by the administration, and carried out by Fitzgerald is not a political witch hunt.

Your friend seems to be completely ignorant of the background of the matter.

[redqueen]

5. What... ignorant republicans?

You don't say!

[Wetzelbill]

18. I have never heard of such a thing

[navvet]

8. That would not surprise me

that he has not paid attention to the matter.


He only pays partial attention and then always to the GOP side.

But I keep trying.
:hi:

[fooj]

4. If Rove is the one who outed Plame, he is a treasonous traitor!

Ask your friend if he is comfortable with the truth that assertion holds. He compromised the national security of our country...you know, the thing that Shrub brags about the most. You also might want to ask him about those "precious" WMD! Who does he suppose will give us the intelligence on that now that this administration has successfully undermined a 20+year WMD intelligence program? Finally, I'd ask him if he bases his response on partisanship or patriotism? IMO, a true patriot behaves ethically, as well as morally. There is a RIGHT. There is a WRONG. Period.

Good Luck!

peace.

[navvet]

14. My guess is that he is mostly partisan

he has never to my knowledge questioned GOP orthodoxy going as far back as Reagan.

But I grew up with him and we have been and seen each other through some tough and lean times. Hard to just walk away from that over politics (as important as it is).

I have gone to the left of him in the last 15 years (since I got done with the USN, you would not believe how easy it is to be conservative in the military but that is for a different day). Heck I am even to the left of my wife on some issues.

Still I can't get him to understand that Iraq did not need to happen and is not good for us.

Thank You.

:toast:

[fooj]

22. Maybe he is partisan because nobody has ever challenged

him on his PATRIOTISM. How about his ethics? Morals? Does he understand the significance of a NATIONAL SECURITY BREACH?

peace.

[CTyankee]

7. "Filegate" was totally discredited

Ken Starr's successor cleared the Clintons of filegate, the Vince Foster suicide, Whitewater, and travelgate. Don't let this guy get away with repeating lies. And don't let him change the subject! If the issue is the Repubs, then keep it on the Repubs. I'm sure you can find that report by googling it. Print it out and hand it to him!

Since I am having similar trouble with a relative, I have begun to keep a Truth Portfolio. I anticipate what his talking points will be and have refutation on lots of issues. Right now I'm collecting the Rove stuff. The only drawback is that this takes time. I am now semi retired, which is why I can devote lots of time to my portfolio.

Du is great for suggesting resources. I suggest you ask again but on more specific topics. I've found DU folks to be really knowledgeable and they have given me invaluable suggestions for background material.

[wryter2000]

13. Yup

After all the years and all the money, the only thing Starr could make stick was that Clinton had sex with an intern. Susan McDougall went to jail for refusing to testify. I don't think anyone in the administration went to jail. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Contrast that to Iran/Contra where many people were found guilty of crimes.

[navvet]

19. I thought the Attorney General

at the time went to jail, maybe I am wrong.

But did not some one from the justice department do time over whitewater??

[wryter2000]

29. Hmmm...

The Attorney General of the US? On edit: Wouldn't that be Janet Reno? I kind of don't think so. The Arkansan who went to jail over Whitewater might be Susan McDougal. She and her husband (who was psychotic) were involved in the Whitewater deal with the Clinton's.

[Gildor Inglorion]

9. Find new friends...remember the maxim about dancing pigs:

"Never try to teach a pig to dance. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Your friend is beyond hope. Let him enjoy wallowing in his own sty.
;-)

[MindPilot]

10. I'd break the no harsh language rule

but that's just me. It's probably futile, but the facts speak for themselves. Which is worse, covering a blow, or blowing a cover?

What if the prime minister outted James Bond in the Daily Mirror while he was on a secret mission to save the world? That's exactly what Rove did.

[navvet]

15. Hey I like that one!!!

"What if the prime minister outted James Bond in the Daily Mirror while he was on a secret mission to save the world? That's exactly what Rove did."

Can I use it??:yourock:

[MindPilot]

30. by all means navvet

And if no one has done so already, welcome to DU!!! :hi:

[Wetzelbill]

11. Everything he said was bs, Hillary never misused FBI files

and those billing records she found, were information that the Whitewater investigation already had, sure the records were new, but nothing in them were, tell him the political witchhunt was Whitewater which was nothing, and the abuse of the FBI was done by the Republicans in Congress because they wasted millions of dollars investigating a case that didn't exist and it took money directly out of counterterrorism efforts, which it did. You might want to add that at the same time his boys where sniffing Monica's panties trying to overthrow him, Bill Clinton proposed significant anti-terrorism legislation that the Republicans voted down.

[EVDebs]

12. If I remember correctly, the army was using those FBI files in the WH

this being sometime after a small plane had crashed into the WH during Clinton's presidency, 9-11-94. Not sure about why the files were requested in the first place.

http://www.geocities.com/roboplanes/cessna.html and also see
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V114/N40/crash.40w.html

See 'filegate' under Salon.com archive at http://archive.salon.com/nov96/scandals961118.html

Army connection via Anthony Marceca
http://www.netmagic.net/~franklin/GF1.html
goes into more depth. Also, the DeltaForce wanted Clinton out of office badly and a secretary, Ms. Tripp, had connections to that branch of the military. DeltaForce blamed Clinton for 'pulling out' of Somalia, a mission GHWBush initiated. Clinton was following the Powell Doctrine.

[Totally Committed]

16. This is what I don't get...

The RW will tell you they are the party of "God-loving", "Clean-Living", and "Patriotic" people. As any of them... most times they'll tell you without being asked, but ask 'em.

But, when the shit hits the fan, and it is the Constitution that is being gutted, "sins" being comitted (read: crimes), but it's their partisan electeds doing the dirty deeds, all of a sudden, it's "politics", and they don't wanna hear about it. What's up with that?

When faced with your same problem, I told my Republican "friends" that if they were prepared to get all hot and righteous over Bill or Hillary Clinton's doings, they'd better never be so hypocritical as to blow me off about similarly "egrigious" offenses by their Party. I told them if they ever did, our friendship was over, because they were not the people they were when we were growing up together any longer. Out of five friends I said that to, I now only have one left. People grow up, they grow apart, and you may need to tell them to shove off.

He has a decision to make, and you need to tell him he needs to make it.

Just my opinion.

TC

[navvet]

17. Well reasoned and stated

but there is a lot of years and burdens we have born for each other.

Rejecting him would not be easy.

Still you make a heck of a point.
:think:

[LittleClarkie]

25. It's a kindergarten response isn't it

"They did it first"

To which mom would reply, "But that doesn't make it right."

[1monster]

20. By outing Plame, Rove and his henchmen also blew the cover off of a

CIA front business that they had been using for over twenty years. It is really difficult to get that kind of operation going. Rove blew that cover out of political opportunism and pure spite.

Ask your friend how he defends that kind of operation.

[LittleClarkie]

21. For one thing

Tommy was a RINO. Tax and Spend Tommy. And Bush ain't no fiscal conservative either. So is your friend a fiscal conservative?

[navvet]

23. In theory he is a fiscal conservative

at least he says he is.

still he has not raised much of a fuss about the deficit.

[Catherine Vincent]

24. Tell your friend to take his head out of Bush's ass long enough to

learn the facts! This is a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY!

[fooj]

26. You know what I say when I run into hardline RWers?

I simply say that the people occupying the WH at this present time are NOT TRUE REPUBLICANS. They are imposters that have infiltrated the party and they are simply using the RNC as a cover. I guarantee they'll look at you like you have 10 eyes...but ask them to please give you an example of how Shrub and his fiscal policies fit the Republican "Model" of a conservative. Ask them what else they can point to that underscores the values and beliefs of a TRUE REPUBLICAN. Then, sit back, smile and know that you have done your job well.

peace.

[demo dutch]

27. Don't worry, there are some people you'll never convince, even

if they agree with you they'll NEVER admit it. I have a father in law like that! The fact that the Washington Post printed that the WH fears indictment says just how serious it is.
http://washingtontimes.com/upi/20050714-104442-6075r.htm
So, just wait. This is developing slowly and the truth will be revealed eventually. The talk show hosts and politicians will have nothing more to spin and your friend will (have to) smell the coffee. And if he has any balls he'll admit that you were right all along.

[Ian David]

28. I don't remember the GOP saying, "Just let Ken Starr do his job"

They were hammering on MonicaGate all day, every day, on every channel from C-SPAN to FOX to QVC.