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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 12:47 PM
Original message
"Novak's own statement contradicts story he told Rove about Plame..."
From John Aravosis, americablog.com...

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/07/novaks-own-statement-contradicts-story.html

Novak's own statement contradicts story that HE told Rove about Plame, and not vice versa
by John in DC - 7/15/2005 01:09:00 PM

<>Today's big story is that Rove supposedly never gave Valerie Plame's name to Novak - but rather that Novak mentioned Plame was CIA and Rove said "yeah I heard that too," or something to that effect.

In fact, here's what Novak said in his first interview that we know of just after he leaked Plame's name in print:

Novak, in an interview, said his sources had come to him with the information. "I didn't dig it out, it was given to me," he said. "They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it."

Read that again. I didn't dig it out, it was given to me - they gave me the name. That does not jibe with Rove's anonymous buddy telling the NYT that it was Novak who first brought up Plame as CIA and NOT Rove.

<>So who's lying - Novak or Rove?

PS Another possibility is that Rove wasn't one of the "two administration officials" who told Novak about Plame. In that case, we've got two more, and not one more, Bush administration traitor on the loose.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's not the claim.
The claim is that the psychic journalist with no security clearance told rove and rove told novak, but rove forgot who the psychic journalist was:

"Rove told the grand jury that by the time Novak had called him, he believes he had similar information about Wilson’s wife from another reporter but had no recollection of which reporter had told him about it first, the source said."
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Also take note that what rove told the GJ is NOT mutually exclusive
of his having his OWN firsthand knowledge of Plame's status or even secondhand knowledge from Bolton or Libby or Cheney from having second or thirdhand knowledge from the psychic reporter. He simply referenced the portion of knowledge that fit the situation.

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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. It was Novak's claim, however, right after the story broke in 2003.
Novak, in an interview, said his sources had come to him with the information. "I didn't dig it out, it was given to me," he said. "They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it."

Novak statement then seem to contradicts the latest Rove concoction of his role in Plamegate.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Aha! So they caught him on something at least. Juicy! n/t
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Here's the link and much more from the actual 7/21/03 Newsday article...
Edited on Fri Jul-15-05 02:32 PM by flpoljunkie
http://foi.missouri.edu/voicesdissent/columnistnames.html

Novak, in an interview, said his sources had come to him with the information. "I didn't dig it out, it was given to me," he said. "They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it."

Wilson and others said such a disclosure would be a violation of the law by the officials, not the columnist.

Novak reported that his"two senior administration officials" told him that it was Plame who suggested sending her husband, Wilson, to Niger.

A senior intelligence official confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked "alongside" the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger.

But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment. "They were aware of who she was married to, which is not surprising," he said. "There are people elsewhere in government who are trying to make her look like she was the one who was cooking this up, for some reason," he said. "I can't figure out what it could be."
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pgh_dem Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Exactly...it's win/win for the good guys
Either Rove wasn't Novak's source, and there were two others, or Rove just got caught in yet another public lie.

How many fallback positions can a guy take before people start running headlines like 'Rove tries out another desperate, stupid, false-on-its-face ploy'?
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TrueAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. The press, even Robert Novack is not
Edited on Fri Jul-15-05 12:54 PM by TrueAmerican
They are not going to print or say anything without at least two sources. Rove was most likely the second source that confirmed what the first source told Novack. The WH/Rove knows any legimate news organization wouldn't print anything without at least 2 sources. That's why there was a coordinated leak campaign coming from several sources in the admininstation. This is a CONSPIRACY.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. My guess: Rove gave the info to Novak's first source.
Novak then called Rove who confirmed the info that Rove had leaked through a backdoor channel.

Typical Rovian MO.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Could that be Miller?
That would make perfect sense, why she refuses to testify even though she was given "clearance" by Rove! There is more that she is hiding!!!
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. They printed this concocted story about............
Rove learning Plame's identity from Novak this morning with ONE source. The mysterious "Judicial member" who leaked the supposed info from the prosecutors office. Why will the media print a pro-bush story with only one source, but they're loathe to print an anti-bush story with myriad sources? Gee, golly, gosh. It's almost as if the media is protecting the idiot bastard son! NOOOOOO, not our famed 'Liberal Media'. :puke:
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wallwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. What a tangled web we weave...
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. God Damnit, can't we dig up the facts
and go to the video tape and figure this out? I get so damn sick of this. People in the media intentionally spreading misinformation should be prosecuted.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Hear, hear!
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cestpaspossible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. There's no law against that.
Is there?
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Not as far as I know
but it's really getting out of hand. A normal person has no idea what the truth is.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. They are muddying the water.
From the NYT article about Rove's conversation with Novak: That second source was Mr. Rove, the person briefed on the matter said, although Mr. Rove's account to investigators about what he told Mr. Novak was slightly different. Mr. Rove recalled telling Mr. Novak: "I heard that, too."

So, from whom did Rove hear it? The same person(s) who told Novak?

I don't give a rat's patooie if Rove learned and passed it on, or if he confirmed it. Any decent American knows that you protect CIA agents as if they were your own flesh and blood. To even hint that you know someone is as a covert agent is to engage in treasonous behavior.

Rove is a traitor, so is Novak. I hope we learn who the rest of them are, too.
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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You're forgetting Cooper.
Cooper's emails point to Rove being the first source for Cooper. Rove was probably the second source for Novack.

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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. My head is beginning to explode.
We need a flow chart. I'm sure Rove and his gang have one in their public relations war room. It's probably called "Operation Obfuscation"
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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Agree. Isn't that how Turd Blossom always works?
Edited on Fri Jul-15-05 02:01 PM by Verve
Create as many lies as possible so that it becomes so utterly confusing that eventually no one knows what to believe. It worked with the Iraq war and with Rather gate. I'm praying Rove's in too deep for it to work this time.

A Flow Chart would be great, though. It would be wonderful to have a time line so that those of us at DU could at least keep our heads above water.
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dbonds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. Can you say 'Coverup'
We know Rove and Novak are big-ass liars (big-ass is a descriptive term not a pejorative). Rove took a big hit, now he has made up a counter story. A story that may send his co-dirty-trickster to jail too.

We have a timeline already, DSM - faked documents, Wilson's Trip, Plame getting close to Bushco friends, State of Union Speech, Wilson's Exposure of the false info in the speech, Novaks story, Vanity Fair document. Okay, how does the rest 'supposedly' fit?
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Village Idiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. It's a VERY OLD game...
What you do, if you are Rove, is you tell one of your imp peons to give Matt Cooper at NYT and Novak at FauxNews a call to leak the information...

Then THEY call Rove back seeking confirmation.

It has been done this way since the dawn of time...

Politics may only be the SECOND oldest profession, but it is a dirtier calling than the OLDEST by FAR!!!
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dalloway Donating Member (744 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Agreed. Also, the WH is going SCORCHED EARTH policy on Novak
I think that they held out as long as possible--hoping that if they through a bunch of sh* for talking points that something would stick. When Wilson was able to deflect everything off and show it for the crap it was, they revert to their last resort: putting the spotlight off Rove and onto Novak.

I agree completely with Village Idiot and those above that saying Rove heard it from Novak doesn't mean squat--we always knew their was another leader there and VI's scenario is very plausible.

I think what we are seeing right now is the result the WH being backed up in a corner with no way out. If it wasn't dirty before, now it really is going to be. Watch out Novak--you are the most expendable piece of the conspiracy. They used you. Don't let work their effort to smoke out in public what you said under oath (so than can make sure their story works). Keep silent and let's Fitz do the work.

Tick, tock, tick, tock.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. I'll be pissed if it's two others and Rove walks. I want that bastard GONE
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
21. If Novak cut a deal for immunity, would his perjuring himself nix it?
Seriously, if he offered up all his information to Fitzgerald in the grand jury for guarantees of much lesser charges or full immunity, wouldn't his perjury while making those statements be another issue?

After all, cooperation is premised on cooperation, and saying what you have and haven't done and what you know of the actions of others is STILL subject to the oath to tell the truth. In this case, wouldn't the original deal stick just fine, but not save Novakula from perjury prosecution?

Burn, baby, burn!
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
22. When did Rove and Noavk talk?
about Plame? The Cooper emails should date when Rove leaked to Cooper. If the Novak conversation was after that, it's another count of perjury.

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sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. According to the latest "who's on first" story ...
Wilson's column appeared 7/6/03
Rove talked to Novak 7/8/03
Rove talked to Cooper 7/11/03
Novak's column appeared 7/14/03

Novak's column was completed and available on 7/11/03 but we don't know if available before the Cooper/Rove phone call.

While many scenario's can be thunk up ... it's obvious that Rove leaked the info to Cooper before anything was in print.

It's also safe to say that Rove knew that Novak was outing Plame in his column.

In order to believe that Rove didn't know that Plame was a covert agent then we the people have to be stupid enough to believe that Rove just wasn't astute, smart, intelligent enough to first call the CIA to check on her status and if her name should appear in print as part of the agency.

Since we know he's not the janitor at the WH then we know that he knew her status and is guilty.

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truth4achange Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. Shameless
Watching the right parse this one to death over the last few days has been just amazing. And my fear is that, through their political arm at the RNC, they're making headway in obscuring the core issues with loads of irrelevant verbage about Wilson's credibility and all the rest. These people either have no shame whatsoever, or they take the American people for fools. The sad truth is its both.

for an additional slant: http://www.hairytruth.blogspot.com
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. but you know what.. they can muddy all they want we have fitzgerald
and a legal process

and yes they do take americans and the press and anyone they choose to be fools
we shall see how that ends...

welcome to du
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. Hi truth4achange!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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corky44 Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
25. What are the chances the Neo Cons
were trying to take out Brewster Jennings by outing Plame.
BJ was working covertly to get info on Saudi collusion with
extremists.
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. yes it is all an incredible web of destruction
no wonder its taking this long in the investigation
but it is most definitely all related
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. It's an outright contradiction of Rove - more lies and confusion
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liberalismresurgent Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. What the FReepers are saying
This is the conservative side of this ne Novak/Rove relationship revelation. Theirs is an "it's over" attitude, today at least.
They seem to be optimistic, or is it a nervous laughter?

Somehow I don't think Rove even spent two seconds worrying about it.

Does that mean the stupid liberals went down in flames yet again?

Take that, libs and MSM!

The Dems know they have lost again.

I suspect even the DUmmies are getting the news. How many "The fix is in!" and "I'm ashamed of my country" messages are being posted over there even now?
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
33. "Who's lying - Novak or Rove?" Bet both are serving up lots of whoppers.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Okay, here's my take, FWIW
I think we're going to end up getting an even better big fish than Rove. I think the "first source" for Novak's outing story was Cheney.

Why do I believe that?

Well, what pointed me that way, besides other tidbits I'd picked up in the last few days and my general understanding of Cheney's machinations behind the scenes and his true power in the WH, is that I've been comparing this whole juicy but scary story to the way Nixon's WH bit the dust.

I mean, who was the FIRST of the president's men to have to leave the WH, lost his job, left in disgrace? Does anyone remember? I'll bet you guess wrong unless you really think back to those days.

The FIRST of Nixon's nefarious circle to have to leave was ....

AGNEW!!

Yep, remember?

Just as the "third rate burglary" story was beginning to look to the Dems like it had a lot more meat on its bones than it first appeared, Ol' Spiro was out there on the speaking circuit putting his big fat elitist foot into his mouth every time he opened it. From every podium he mounted, he managed to say some very nasty things that offended some segment of the populace -- and very badly.

He called the anti-war protesters names I've managed to forget. He lambasted the press with vitriolic invective. He used big words (like some of those) to show how smart he was and try to excuse his petty name-calling, but that's what it was: name-calling.

The last resort of someone without a substantial argument in his favor.

I think once the Watergate coverup was into full swing -- and even then, mind you, the WH from Nixon to Dean to Haldeman and Ehrlichman and Mitchell, really BELIEVED they could assassinate the reputations of anyone who dared to try to uncover their secrets so they'd get away clean, just as W & Co believe now -- Nixon and others realized that Agnew was really making matters worse with his attitude and snobbery and big mouth.

So why not draw attention away from Watergate and the coverup by offering up that annoying old bastard to the public and the press?

Aha! someone thought. Ingenius!

Give them Agnew, a really high official in the administration, after all, and engage the old misdirection ploy. BUT they were too smart to let his fall from high places be due to anything connected to Watergate, mind you. They found something TOTALLY DIFFERENT that he could be brought up on charges for -- his tax evasion!

He didn't have to go to prison, he could plead nolo and simply leave office. And the press would be occupied with THAT story and let the Watergate coveruppers slide by without further attention or concern. Give the "sharks" (as I'm sure Nixon saw both the press and the people) somebody really high up in the administration, and let them feed on THAT carcass for awhile.

But it didn't work, of course ... we know that now, but I'm sure it seemed like a masterful play to the Nixon circle when they thought of it then.

Soooo ... just who was everyone saying was Bush's brains before we even knew who Karl Rove was?? Right: Cheney. Who had the experience and the savvy and the connections and the weight to swing around to make the Boy Wonder look good? Cheney.

And right now, whose name keeps getting mentioned in this whole Rove focus but then dropped as the WH keeps throwing out every other name in the story to lead us off in another direction? Cheney. He had the goods on people, the security clearances, the political pull, the motives ... in short, the ABILITY to set this whole blasted coverup in motion once the outing of Plame to get back at Wilson began to go terribly awry.

I have to think Daddy Bush is feeling quite uncomfortable about his boy's attacks on the CIA, too, btw. He's the former head of that agency, and I can't imagine he feels very good about how it's being treated these days....

But GHWB sorta learned from Nixon how to use dirty tricks and his pals at the CIA to "get" his opponents. And we all know how W thinks his pa's sh*t don't stink, right? So even though he probably doesn't consult him anymore about current matters of state or foreign policy, we know he idolizes his dad. He's said so many times. Wonder if he's talked to Dad lately, since this leak scandal broke??

Anyhow, I think we may see the first member of THIS administration to fall may once again as in Nixon's day be the VEEP, and I'd rather see Cheney out of the WH than Rove, frankly, if I had to choose. W could do it in a similar way to how Nixon did ... get his VEEP to leave for reasons OTHER THAN this scandal and his part in it. Cheney could beg off on health issues -- something that is, if you've heard the latest results of his recent checkup, quite plausible, for that matter. Those enlarged arteries behind his knees, that's not a minor thing. He's gotten by way longer than I expected without another heart attack, and anything to do with arterial issues is connected to heart health issues.

Frankly, I would be overjoyed if we could watch W's daddy's old crony who has quietly and masterfully steered his son through the treacherous waters on the ship of state quite well so far bite the dust as the first casualty in a long line of 'em sent marching from the WH!

Does anyone remember a French movie called "Zee" from the '70's? It was a foreign film but won some kind of Oscar, the first time that was ever done. It was a political satire set in some unnamed but clearly western country where at the end they showed the conspiracy connections all falling into place by putting first one player and then another in front of the camera spouting his or her flimsy excuses or attempts to deflect blame. The dominoes fell, one by one. Just like the Nixon administration ... and just like I expect or at least fervently HOPE we'll see happen to this administration in the near future!

I agree with those who say history will give W a very special place in our hall of leaders -- as the absolute WORST president the USA ever had to endure!

Liar, trickster, cheat, bungler, arrogant favored son -- and that's only the beginning of a long list that gets far worse as you go. Especially when you think about "his" war in Iraq....

So am I firing my arrows at the wrong bird here or what? What do you guys think???

:dilemma: :patriot: :D
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