Fire Karl Rove? ? This IS "Damage Control"***Don't buy it!!!

[bvar22]

Have you noticed the coordinated CorpoMedia attempt to Frame this issue?

The ubiquitous Media Polls "Should Karl Rove be fired?"

This is an attempt by the Republican Media Machine to FRAME this issue. These are Push Polls!!

Someone is FIRED for showing up to work late. TREASON is a MUCH MORE serious issue. The sudden appearance of the "Fire Rove" Media Polls and coordinated calls from the Establishment Wing of the Democratic Party are an attempt at damage control and Perception Control by FRAMING this issue as a relatively MINOR offense!

This plan does two HUGE things for the Beltway Establishment.

*It diminishes the seriousness of the offense by equating it with a Firing Offense. Almost everyone has done something for which they could be fired. It implies a momentary lack of judgment that results in a minor embarrassment, NOT A CRIMINAL ACT!

*It prepares the public to accept a minor penalty for a serious criminal offense! Firing Rove would have NO EFFECT on his ability to provide strategy, guidance, and influence in the White House. He would simply phone in his diabolical schemes! He would IMMEDIATELY be picked up by a friendly Republican Revolving Door lobbying firm, and may still regularly visit the White House in his New Job with a huge increase in pay!

*It Sets Up the PUBLIC to be satisfied with a Rove Firing as an END to this issue.


The CorpoMedia are already using these polls to influence the public perception of Rove's Treason.
the Results of the Push Polls are being reported:
The MAJORITY of Americans agree that Karl Rove should be Fired for his offense.

I have yet to see a POLL that offered these choices:

*Karl Rove should be fully prosecuted as a criminal

*Karl Rove should be imprisoned

*Karl Rove should be considered a TRAITOR

*Karl Rove has helped the terrorists

*Karl Rove has damaged the National Security


Don't buy this frame by agreeing that Rove should be fired.
Support the FULL CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION and PROSECUTION of EVERYONE INVOLVED!

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Agreed

[Bluebear]

2. Agreed & nominated wholeheartedly. nt

[samsingh]

3. i think you're right.

[Rockholm]

4. Seconded.

[Citizen Jane]

5. Good point!

I was just reading Lakoff's essay about framing (in Don't Think of an Elephant) today and your thoughts on this being a framing issue are extremely important.

We can't let the Rethuglicans outframe us on this issue!

[Debi]

6. George Bush the first fired Rove

This time he needs to go to jail.

[rocktivity]

7. Then you'll like this LTTE I wrote the day on yesterday

It is time for the spinning, stonewalling, weapons of mass distraction and talking point wars that have protected the Bush White House to come to an end.

Now that Karl Rove has turned out to be an outer of undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame to the press, he should be relieved of his Cabinet-level access immediately, and he must be compelled to reveal who gave the information on Plame to him. But while Mr. Bush has promised to fire the leakers, that is much too good a fate for anyone who deliberately endangers the lives of those who devote themselves to serving America--especially if the reward is as vindictive, juvenile and self-serving as political payback.

The time has come for public hearings, punishment to the fullest extent of the law, and for Mr. Bush to keep to keep at least one of his political promises.

:headbang:
rocknation

[bvar22]

9. Good Letter.

Let us know if it gets published.
This should be reposted as a template for a Nationwide DU Campaign of LTTEs.

[rocktivity]

15. I did return a confirmation call from the newspaper yesterday

I didn't see it today, so I'm assuming they're holding it until Sunday when it will get maximum exposure...

:eyes:
rocknation

[Stephanie]

8. Absolutely correct

Please send to Eli Pariser at MoveOn.org

[many a good man]

10. Fire first. Firing squad later

after conviction. This may go a lot further than just Rove. Won't the spinners be surprised!

[Carolab]

11. Yes, true. It's no solution at all. This is CRIMINAL. n/t

[kster]

12. Agreed .nt

[sandnsea]

13. Fire now, prosecute later

They are playing tapes of Bush saying he would "take care of" the leaker. At the very least, he should fire him. He's not, he's protecting him. It shows that even their "god appointed" President is nothing more than a partisan shill.

Of course, there are always those who come around to divide the Democrats by rounding up a small group to take aim at the "establishment Dems". Here they are, right on time. Because we all know the Democratic Party is the real enemy. :eyes:

[bvar22]

14. And also "right on time"

...are the apologists for the Establishment Dems who have forgotten their roots and their responsibilities to the Working American.

"Protect the Status Quo" at ALL costs. Don't let ANYTHING threaten the "Money Machine".

BOTH of our Poitical Parties will Close Ranks to "protect the system." Wittness Carl Levins defense of Norm Coleman at the Galloway appearance before the Senate.

If you have an issue with the substance of my OP, then lets hear it.
If you have a personal issue with me or others that are disappointed with the Establishment Wing of the Democratiic Party,
THEN START YOUR OWN THREAD!
:eyes:back at you!

[oxbow]

16. Unfortunately, Moveon.org and others are the loudest voices for Firing Rov

see the rally they held yesterday at the WH, for instance. This is not coordinated spin, but just unorganized misinformation

[Mass]

26. No, this is GOOD politics

I am not an expert in law, so I do NOT know if what Rove did was unlawful or not.

What I know is that it was UNETHICAL and for that he should be fired.

CANT YOU RECOGNIZE RIGHT FROM WRONG?

Getting tired of Dems pushing a political agenda and not understanding what it is about.

[wiggs]

17. Yep. Not only that

the story goes beyond Rove...another aspect they are trying to head off by firing.

[MH1]

18. Patience, grasshopper.

Okay, I'm no expert. So this is just opinion. Please don't shoot me.

* will NOT fire Rove. At least not in any timely fashion. This is a GOOD thing (provided Fitzgerald is really going to do his job, and those are the indications). Why good? because more people will realize what a partisan, unethical pile of crap this administration is. And realization of the truth is indeed a good thing.

Also, the concept of "firing" someone has some cachet these days, thanks to Donald Trump. Maybe - just maybe - using the word "fire" grabs people's attention.

Now, I'll agree that our Dem leadership can be terribly thick about framing. But I'm not sure they got it wrong on this one.

Look, if Rove is guilty, and Fitz does his job, the man's going down anyway. It will be up to a court, not up to the media. Meanwhile the "you're fired!" meme is striking a chord with the sheeple and just maybe waking them up. So they will be more attentive when the real shit that these bastards are guilty of is spelled out for them.

Just my opinion, though.

[ginnyinWI]

27. I agree

It's bad for them politically to have so much media coverage, and as long as Rove is there, this thing will keep simmering. I think Kerry and others know * won't fire Rove except under the most dire circumstances, but calling for it makes good press. The real action is happening with Fitzgerald and his inquiry. And I think he's angling for some even bigger fish than Rove.

[MH1]

32. Oh, I do hope you're right!

I don't think Kerry believes in a million years * will fire Rove, at least not until he's indicted. But as you say, it makes for good press, and the more press we get on this the better.

And I don't think Kerry took as much risk as some people might say, when he so publicly claimed that * should fire Rove. After all, most people are beginning to get a sense of the corruption of this administration and grok that Rove is a big part of it. Still, there is some risk, and the fact that Kerry (once again, like DSM) is leading the charge, shows the man has balls and knows how to use them.

[ginnyinWI]

33. latest poll on *

McLaughlin had a poll on--only 41% believe that * is honest! This is down 9 points from January. People are starting to wake up to his Fraudulency's real agenda. (Conquest of all of the world's resources he can get!)

[Imagevision]

19. Exactly, Rove should wish he has the option to get fired avoiding

prosecution. A dollar to a dime Bush & Cheney knew all along!!

[welshTerrier2]

20. Plame = DSM

this is not about revenge to get back at Wilson ... this is not about embarrassing Plame or Wilson ... don't get hung up on the People Magazine aspects of this story ... the media will turn this into the OJ trial or the Michael Jackson drama ...

the Plame affair was not just petty vindictiveness ... it had a much larger purpose ... the goal was to destroy those in the CIA who refused to go along with the fabricated evidence bush needed to justify the invasion of Iraq ...

the Plame affair is exactly the same thing as the DSM ... it was all part of "fixing the facts around the policy" ... by destroying the careers of those who stood up for the truth about Iraq, bush hoped to send a cold chill through the CIA and other government agencies ... he wanted to teach them a lesson not just on Iraq but on who had all the power ...

the real crime here was not the outing of a CIA operative; it was the destruction of the autonomy of the CIA ... agents were never told what they had to do; they were shown what would happen to them and their operations if they failed to go along with the administration ...

the treason here was much broader than destroying a covert operation; it was the destruction of a critically necessary check and balance between the WH and the CIA ... this was a power grab by one part of our government of another ...

the BP is correct ... they are letting Rove soak up all the "bad guy points" to protect, you might say cover up, the larger operation ... the US government has been taken over by treasonous criminals; let's make sure we keep the focus on what really happened and on who's responsible ... getting Rove fired is fine as a first step but exposing the corruption behind the entire Plame/DSM incidents is the real story ...

[Sparkly]

21. I say fire him, because it's a first step.

It implies guilt, or at least "the appearance of impropriety."

Get him away from the White House and strip him of any & all security clearance for the safety of the nation. I think that's a nice, strong message.

In that sense, the Bush Cabal loses political points and credibility no matter what happens, and meanwhile the implied admission could be a stepping stone toward public outrage and demands for a full criminal prosecution.

So I say, fire him!

[WinkyDink]

22. ITA

And if he's fired, he's old news = boring!

[liberalla]

23. I agree with what you wrote... but in this case...

I think the CorpoMedia took their cues from us. The progressive / lefty / liberal / Democrats started the whole Fire Rove! thing. Didn't Kennedy, Kerry, Conyers and Slaughter all call for his firing? (seems they did, but I would have to check to be sure)

**Seven distinct Fire Karl Rove petitions in one handy location**

http://action.truemajority.org/campaign/rove_must_go
http://action.dscc.org/campaign/firerove
http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/rove.php
http://www.petitiononline.com/fireturd/petition.html
http://votelouise.com/page/petition/rove
http://www.moveonpac.org/firerove /
http://www.workingforchange.com/activism/action.cfm?ite ...

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=18143&mesg_id=18143

There's more than a few of these "Fire Rove" petitions/threads here at DU.
Plus, I signed a Fire Rove petition at Randi Rhodes website.

http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/



georgie probably won't fire him. As Randi says that would be like Pinnochio firing Gepetto (sp?),
or Kermit firing the hand.

I agree with your message and I appreciate your fervor!
The case you make for investigation and prosecution is one that needs to be made in the mainstream. The good news is they seem to be noticing and hearing us with regards to Rove betrayal. Thanks to Fitzgerald and the Grand Jury, etc., they can't ignore us completely. They followed us on the "Fire Rove" bandwagon. Where else will they follow us? We need to do our best to redirect their focus!

[cleveramerican]

24. I don't think he will be fired

right now the "ongoing grand jury investigation" line is working more than you think.
This will be followed by an" ongoing criminal investigation"
Which will be followed by some other stall Tactic
This could go on for years

[Mass]

25. So should slam Conyers, Waxman, Dean, ...

(may be we should just burn them alive, I dont know), not to forget MoveOn.

This is silly and you know it. What you are doing is exactly what the WH wants.

The solution is what Waxman and other are proposing:

1/ Rove should be fired because, whether what he did is contrary to the law as it is written or not, he is still using national security issues for political gain.

2/ The inquiry should continue and if there are proof that he is infringing on any law (which is NOT clear at the time), he should be judged.

One is NOT independant of the other; unfortunately some here are falling in the RW trap and are ready to let Rove walk, thinking that way they are tougher.

[bvar22]

28. Strawman Fallacy

Description of Strawman

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself.

I didn't suggest that we should "slam Conyers, Waxman, Dean, (may be we should just burn them alive, I don't know ), not to forget MoveOn."

Statements prefixed with "So what you are saying is..." are almost always Strawmen.




Here is what I DID say in reference to calling for Rove's Firing:

*It diminishes the seriousness of the offense by equating it with a Firing Offense.

*It prepares the public to accept a minor penalty for a serious criminal offense!

*It Sets Up the PUBLIC to be satisfied with a Rove Firing as an END to this issue.


AND here is MY recommendation:
Support the FULL CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION and PROSECUTION of EVERYONE INVOLVED!

[Mass]

29. One DOES NOT exclude the other

I am just seeing you as the strawman (involuntary may be, but still straw man) of the RW agenda.

It works that way:

Let's push claims that at best cannot be proven,

Show that they cannot be proven and say they are false

Make clear that nothing was wrong.

- Remember Rathergate where Rather had a perfectly valid case until he added a couple of documents whose authenticity could not be proven.). Immediately the case focused on the authenticity of the document and the case was dismissed and the story disappeared with a lot of damage to the antiBush camp (Rather became equivalent to the SBVT).

- Second case with Newsweek and the Koran.

- We are exactly in the same trend here. The laws ruling what Rove (and others) did are very vague and the media are already floating that he did not do anything ILLEGAL and dismissing the fact that it was unethical at best. Claiming that he (and anybody else in the same situation in the WH) should be fired , is claiming the moral high ground. It does not prevent what you are asking for, just remind people that things that may be lawful may still be immoral and that we should stand on both principles.

So I still feel free to disagree with you.

[Doctor_J]

30. I wrote this same thing two days ago

but sadly was soundly renounced. * will at some point "fire" Rove, and his treason and all the other crimes of this WH will be white-washed by this non-punishment, and the Chimp will garner mounds of political capital from the photo-op. Subsequently there will be blowback - some high-profile Dem will take the fall for some little non-offense.

Once again the media is working for the BFEE.

[SF Bay Area Dem]

31. If he is indicted he loses security clearances..

If that happens and he discusses anything having to do with policy and national security with the president will find him in greater trouble than before...

[proud patriot]

34. good point , will do

:hi: