So is Rove going to get away with Plamegate?

[CoffeeCat]

Their latest "spin" is that a media member told Rove about Plame. So...Rove was not the source of the leak--he was just a recipient of the information.

Guys...I don't like this. At all.

Is this how they're going to slink away from this--without accountability?

[evlbstrd]

1. Ignore the spin.

It's in the hands of the prosecuter and grand jury, not the media.

[bvar22]

7. Public Perception is EVERYTHING.

The Media is spreading several memes (FRAMES). If successful, Rove may be prosecuted, but the ignorant voters will see it as a Partisan Attack by an overzealous prosecutor and Activist Judges.

Public Perception is EVERYTHING in Politics and Elections!

[lancdem]

They can't accuse Fitzgerald of being partisan

He's a registered Republican.

[lancdem]

29. They can't accuse Fitzgerald of being partisan

He's a registered Republican.

[bvar22]

33. They have ALREADY claimed this is a "partisan" attack!

The bush* White House has no regard for the TRUTH.
They use their CorpoMedia to "manufacture" reality.

A LITTLE thing like Fitz being a Republican won't stop the slime machine.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

2. Is Rove confirming or denying this?

Seems to me that this "anonomous" source is just another big leak of classified information or just made up crap.

[emulatorloo]

3. fitzgerald and grand jury do not care what GOP spinners say

EOM

[tandem5]

38. exactly... they can spin themselves silly for all I care! nt

[lancdem]

4. This is not about spin

The prosecutor is the one holding all the cards, and he doesn't give a rat's ass what's in the press.

[bvar22]

5. If Rove discovered....

...that CorpoMedia personalities were spreading the identity of Undercover Agents, wouldn't he be required to IMMEDIATELY notify the FBI.

Isn't this a National Security matter?
By keeping silent, isn't he an accessory?

Officially Confirming that Plame was indeed a CIA operative is THE SAME as OUTING her!

[CoffeeCat]

12. Excellent point...I feel better now.

Your point is well taken.

If Rove knew that a reporter was outing an undercover CIA operative--wasn't he obligated to notify the authorities? Excellent point.

Furthermore--Why has Rove sat on this information for TWO years? If he's so innocent, why did he claim that he had NO involvement? If he was just simply a recipient of the Plame info--via a media member--why not come forward and say that?

Thanks for your thoughts....

[Carolab]

6. Rove is LYING. Read this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1931761

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4112344

[CoffeeCat]

14. Thanks for those links...very helpful (nt)

[Imagevision]

35. Rove I believe is light-weight - just the tip of the iceberg >

Rove already has the distincction of being fired by poppy Bush involving an episode also involving Novak -- now it's Rove said-,but Novak said...

If Fitgerald lives up to his reputation Bushco will be in for some bad weather. Bush/Cheney, whaT DID THEY KNOW AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT??

[KamaAina]

8. Looks like they're throwing Novak under the bus

to try and save Tokyo Rove.

Bush**co is getting more and more Nixonian every day.

[pk_du]

10. "Tokyo Rove" ....love it!....... n/t

[Imagevision]

36. IF SOMEONE HAS TO BITE THE BULLET, BUSH WOULD DUMP

ON NOVAK THE SAME WAY BUSH SR. DID -- BUT, SOMEONE SHOULD GO TO PRISON FOR THIS, SOMEONE HAS TO BE THAT "STAND-UP GUY?

[jimshoes]

9. I say we get the turds

under oath. Until then they can say Santa Claus told Karl and it can't be disproved.

[stray cat]

11. It all will come down to Fitzgeralds findings....

[longship]

13. Repeat after me...

"It's not in the hands of the media. The Media does not control this. Neither does the White House."

Got it? ;-)

It's in the hands of a very capable special prosecutor and a grand jury who seem to be going in the correct direction. Hard to tell, though, because they work under a veil of secrecy. But they are the ones controlling this thing.

But understand this, the White House is completely upside-down about this. They are not in control for the first time in over four years. The most powerful people in the country right now are Fitzgerald, the grand jurors, and the judge. Also, realize that this pisses off the White House immensely. They realize what could happen and they can't put a stop to it.

Myself, I'm going to continue to watch them squirm, savoring every moment. I have visions of West Wing staffers scurrying around like ants in an anthill trying to stop this thing. But they can't do anything without triggering a full-blown Constitutional crisis. So they do the only thing they can do, and that's release their stupid, daily talking point memos. The public aren't buying the spin, so they scurry around even more. There's a meltdown happening and the more they try to mess with it, the worse the situation gets for them.

This is a completely, totally, lovely time. I'm smiling. It's gonna be a fun time to be a Democrat.

[CoffeeCat]

15. That's true...they're scrambling...

...and I almost forgot that BushCo has no control of Fitzgerald, the grand jury and the judge. They're investigating without the influence of outside forces.

You are soooo right. I feel better now. Thanks.

This must be why Junior and Rove are shown smiling and joined at the hip--several times daily. They're freaking out so bad--they feel that they must project the exact opposite of what's happening behind closed doors.

Can you imagine how frazzled they all are?

The number of banana-moon pies that Rove has ingested in the past few days must be unimaginable!

Awesome thoughts...and so true!

Ok, time to stop listening to CNN.

[longship]

18. banana-moon pies!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:spray:

[Dr Fate]

17. The court of public opinion is the only one that matters.

And the special prosecutor can be broken. If he has no secrets, well I'm sure he has relatives.

Rove will walk, and DEMs will let it go, like always.

See: Gannon, DSM, Enrongate, Cheney's secret meetings, WMDs, Harkengate, Swiftboats, Rathergate, etc, etc,etc.

[longship]

20. I'm glad I don't share your pessimism.

I couldn't sleep at night.

As I said in my post, the WH is trying to fix this thing but they can't do it without triggering a full-blown constitutional crisis. Offing, or firing, a special prosecutor would be a very serious thing. During Watergate, public opinion turned seriously against Nixon when he fired Archibald Cox. It was serious enough that the entire top chain of command in the Justice department almost resigned.

That system is still in place. At some point you have to trust the system we've got. If you sit back and observe, you'll see that the WH is going completely crazy right now. They don't know what to do.

[Dr Fate]

34. See Gannon, Swiftboats, election fraud, Newsweekgate, DSM, etc, etc, etc.

Unless the DEMs have hired new "strategists", then expect the same results- this story will be "old news" in a few weeks. No one in the media and no DEMs will be on TV talking about it.

We actually had a curious media, or somthing close to it during Nixon, that was 30 years ago.

The White House KNOWS what to do-they are not "completely crazy" at all- but calm and assured. Our fatal flaw is to assume they will "fall on their sword" instead of stabbing the bastards.

[longship]

44. The media does not control this.

This is in the hands of a special prosecutor, a grand jury, and a judge overseer. Just like in Watergate, the press, the Repugs, and the Dems can only help with public opinion. It's the legal side which is the controlling element.

The pace of revelations, and the pace of the case in general is all up to the SP, GJ, and judges. The media and the pols have to wait, just like the public. So if the story dies, it's because nothing is coming out of the grand jury just yet. The Watergate story wasn't a day-by-day thing. There was a long time between some revelations. The story died a thousand deaths along the way. It took 18 months for indictments to be sent down.

One gets the definite feeling that Fitzgerald is going after big fish here. We do *not* want this thing rushed. If he's got Cheney, Rice, and/or even Bush himself on the hook, we do not want them slipping off.

Patience. Nobody is laying down on this, least of all the Dems.

[LunaC]

19. Rove "The Muzzle" has been muzzled

and the MSM is thinking "Pay-back time....." Let the feeding frenzy begin!

I, too, am enjoying the show and am fully stocked with popcorn.

[Dr Fate]

16. Remember how Democrats handled Gannon, DSM, Swifboats, WMDs, etc, etc

Unless they have hired new "strategists"- look for similar results.

[lancdem]

30. They didn't involve a special prosecutor

Big difference.

[imenja]

21. He will be indicted

and there may be another White House staffer prosecuted as well. If he is convicted, W will probably pardon him, but the indictment will cause a huge stink.

That's my guess.


Rush and the GOP can spin all they want. As long as the issue is still in the news, it hurts Bush.

[Imajika]

22. I doubt much comes of any of this...

I rather suspect Rove will not be indicted, nor anyone else of any signficance.

I think most DUers posting on this issue have gotten way ahead of themselves.........again.

For the long time members, just think how many times Bush or Rove or Cheney were about to go down if you believed what you read here... It never happens.

Could Rove be indicted? Sure, lets hope so. But my reading of it is that the laws are very specific, and I am not so sure Rove technically did anything illegal. Ethically and morally, ofcourse, but what he did has to actually constitute a real violation of a very specific law. Perhaps, Rove lied and they can get him for perjury, but I have my doubts if ole' Karl would be that stupid.

We'll see, and I could be wrong, but I bet the people who thought this would sink Rove and seriously damage Bush are going to be very dissappointed.

Imajika

[lancdem]

31. This investigation is about much more than that

[Imagevision]

37. ROVE-NIGER-YELLOW CAKE-DSM-PLAME - THIS THING HAS JUST BEGUN.

I'LL PUT MY MONEY ON FITZGERALD -- NOT TOO SHABBY SO FAR.

[skip fox]

23. All this because of 16 words/an admin. who ignored evidence to go to war.

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." --W.

IF Novak told Rove Plame's information, that only makes the case for multiple contacts, sources, and confirmations, requiring coordination by Rove. Fitzgerald will nail him, but Republicans are tryignt to divert attention to minimize political damage.


We know there were 6 calls because 6 contacts were made (Miller, Cooper, Novak among them). We know 3 contacts confirmed their stories with another "high administration official."

Therefore

1.) 1 man (named Rove by Cooper) made all 6 calls (which reduces the contention of "unknowingly" providing Plame's identity laughable). But he would have had to make sure that there were a few other "high administration officials" ready and willing to confirm his story, which strongly suggests coordination. Did Rove mastermind this portion before "unknowingly" releasing Plame's identity 6 times? Was this coordination "unknowing" as well? What does "knowing" mean? Repeated deliberate acts and coordinating with others for future support suggest a strong and clear intentions. It has knowledgeable design written all over it.

or,

2.) more than 1 person (Rove and at least one other) made the 6 calls. (The fact that one source released Cooper from his agreement of confidentiality but one source did not release Miller suggest at least 2 sources.) Rove would have more to coordinate! To establish guidelines like: No source should call another's contact, Pitch the information off hand, not as the main subject, Make the contact think the source is trying to do him or her a favor ("Don't go too far out on this Wilson thing, I don't want you burnt."), etc. AND Rove would have had to field a group of officials to support the sources stories.

I say Rove coordinated because it is obvious he did so since anyone in the administration in possession of the Plame-Wilson-CIA link would have gone straight to the world master of deceitful politics, and now we know Rove was at least one of the leakers.


So, in the first case we have at least 2 indictments for Rove (exposing and conspiring to expose) and (perhaps) 1 or more indictments for others (confirming and condoning the exposure while furthering it).

But in the second case we have at least 2 for Rove (same as above, but more evidence of conspiracy) and 1 or more clearcut indictments for others (both leakers and confirmers for exposure).

And then we haven't even begun to ask the question of how Rove got the information. (Doesn't leaking the information to him also constitute a crime?) Did Plame give information to officials as one report suggested? Why did Ashbery recluse himself? Did Rove have the proper clearance prior to becoming Deputy Chief of Staff to have seen the material? Or were other federal laws broken to the effect that classified information was used for political purposes? Etc.

I think the great thing we have going for us on this case is Patrick Fitzgerald. By all accounts a fine prosecutor.

[snippy]

24. Based on the Ct of Appeals opinion in the Cooper/Miller case, I doubt it.

In reaching the conclusion that any possible journalist's privilege concerning the identity of Cooper's source would be overcome by the grand jury's need for the information, Judge Tatel wrote:

Cooper asks us to protect criminal leaks so that he can write about the crime.
The greater public interest lies in preventing the leak to begin with. Had Cooper
based his report on leaks about the leaks—say, from a whistleblower who
revealed the plot against Wilson—the situation would be different. Because
in that case the source would not have revealed the name of a covert agent,
but instead revealed the fact that others had done so, the balance of news
value and harm would shift in favor of protecting the whistleblower. Yet it appears
Cooper relied on the Plame leaks themselves, drawing the inference of sinister
motive on his own. Accordingly, his story itself makes the case for punishing the
leakers. While requiring Cooper to testify may discourage future leaks, discouraging
leaks of this kind is precisely what the public interest requires.

. . .

Were the leak at issue in this case less harmful to national security or more vital to
public debate, or had the special counsel failed to demonstrate the grand jury’s need
for the reporters’ evidence, I might have supported the motion to quash. Because
identifying appellants’ sources instead appears essential to remedying a serious
breach of public trust, I join in affirming the district court’s orders compelling their
testimony.

http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/common/opinions/200502/04-3138a.pdf(Tatel, J. concurring opinion at pp. 82-83) (emphasis added)

Appellate Court judges typically write with a great level of precision. The other judges wrote of "possible" crimes. But not Tatel. It is unlikely that Judge Tatel would have referred to "criminal leaks" or "the crime" unless he had concluded that the leaks violated the law. These commments by Judge Tatel follow the several pages of redacted material in his opinion. That redacted material may have laid out why he concluded a crime had been commited. They almost certainly contained a great deal of Fitzgerald's arguments which were filed under seal.

I also found it interesting that he referred to "the plot against Wilson" as though such a plot was an established fact. Perhaps that conclusion also was in the redacted material. Rove certainly was involved in that plot.

Based on Judge Tatel's statements, I think Fitzgerald will indict several people on a variety of charges and I think one of those people will be Rove.

[Eloriel]

25. I don't know if he will or not, but I have to admit I'm having trouble

figuring out how this might shake out -- in either direction. I just can't imagine that he'll get in any more legal or even political trouble than he's already in. I similarly just can't imagine how this will damage Bush any more than it already has.

I just don't see that we have enough rsources on OUR side like we did for Watergate -- a press willing to actually do some investigating and reporting (hint: it wasn't ALL Woodward and Bernstein), and Congressmen (and they pretty much were all men) and Senators who were actually willing to do the right thing (I called them Statesmen, and consider that era pretty much the last of our Statesmen in Washington).

[Enraged_Ape]

26. They are only spinning up the media to try to soften the blow...

when the indictment(s) come down. This is about the fourth or fifth "explanation" we've heard from Rove's mouthpiece in a week. They don't even know what to say anymore. They're in serious trouble, and they know it, and so they're desperately trying to get as many excuses as they can out there before the excrement hits the air impeller.

[enough already]

27. Conyers should hold hearings on this.

Frankly, I don't trust a "prosecutor" selected by the Bush crime family/Injustice department. Conyers would get the truth out and do it in a big time, public way.

[lancdem]

32. Do you know anything about Fitzgerald?

If he wanted to whitewash this, he would've closed down the investigation a year ago. He brought down the GOP in Illinois.

[davhill]

28. Rove could probably

beat to death a little old lady in the middle of Pennsylvania Ave during rush hour and get away with it. He has friends in high places!

[bermudat]

39. In a word, yes. bush and his minions get away with everything.

Over the past several years, every so often something happens that makes all of us say, ' this definitely is the one thing that will do bush in' and he keeps on going. He will finish out his 2nd term, protected, and then go on to become baseball commissioner. Rove is going nowhere. At the end of bush's term, he'll probably become CEO of Halliburton. They get away with murder and no one, nothing will stop them.

[Imagevision]

40. Is Bush & Cheney going to get away with plame-gate??

[Debs]

41. Oh Yeah.

If Bush himself killed and ate a baby live on TV, the rightwingnut attack machine would within an hour be explaining why it was all the liberal establishments fault and it shows the need to stand up for our strong (pause while I retch) leader. At least 40% of the people and a majority of congress would go along with it gleefully.

[bermudat]

42. i wholeheartedly agree.

[The2ndWheel]

43. They always get away with it

John Negroponte has been confirmed to important government positions how many times since Iran-Contra?

The worst thing that will happen to Rove is he might get a gig as a political analyst on Fox News someday.

They always get away with it. They always end up making millions after they get away with it. What's so special about this scandal? National security? Yeah, that's never been compromised before. Somebody could be killed? Again...

[jmcon007]

45. Fitzgerald will have a lot of explaining to do if he comes up dry.

We already know Rove perjured himself to the grand jury at a minimum. Saying he didn't know about Plame until after Noval's story is a proven lie.