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Totally Committed (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 09:44 AM Original message |
A Must-Read! -- NYT Magazine Cover Story: "The Framing Wars"... |
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Goldeneye (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 10:36 AM Response to Original message |
1. kick... |
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MsConduct (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 10:48 AM Response to Original message |
2. Mind Blowing to say the least! Thanks and KICK. n/t |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:01 AM Response to Original message |
3. Language matters... |
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central scrutinizer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 03:07 PM Response to Reply #3 |
64. All DUers should read George Lakoff |
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flpoljunkie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:08 AM Response to Original message |
4. I side with Harry Reid, "I'm not involved in any of that gimmickry.'' |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:13 AM Response to Reply #4 |
5. Of course you need the substance to go along with the style, otherwise... |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:36 AM Response to Reply #5 |
13. Obviously you need meaning to go along with the marketing, otherwise |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:45 AM Response to Reply #13 |
16. Fortunately, our side HAS the meaning. |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:10 PM Response to Reply #16 |
20. Well-meaning phrases are capsized by perceived cynical superiority |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:30 PM Response to Reply #20 |
23. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:03 PM Response to Reply #23 |
33. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:10 PM Response to Reply #33 |
37. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:38 PM Response to Reply #37 |
40. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:43 PM Response to Reply #40 |
42. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:00 PM Response to Reply #42 |
48. Deleted message |
bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 07:56 PM Response to Reply #20 |
79. how does "framing" further distance the audience from the intended |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 09:44 PM Response to Reply #79 |
85. Meanwhile |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 09:49 PM Response to Reply #85 |
86. no answers, huh? |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 10:54 PM Response to Reply #86 |
89. Correct. My questions met with resistance but no answers were offered |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:18 PM Response to Reply #89 |
90. no answers, just trashing lakoff, and you think that's rational. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:43 PM Response to Reply #90 |
93. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 12:02 AM Response to Reply #93 |
94. Deleted message |
LonelyLRLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 12:11 AM Response to Reply #20 |
95. Framing doesn't have to be equivalent to lying |
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Maraya1969 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 03:30 PM Response to Reply #20 |
108. I disagree - They made up the word 'Pro-life" and they are anything |
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navvet (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-19-05 11:01 AM Response to Reply #20 |
114. We are already coming across as arrogant and |
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ooglymoogly (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:49 PM Response to Reply #16 |
45. but we don't have the voting machines nt |
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Gay Green (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:39 PM Response to Reply #13 |
27. In other words, |
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OzarkDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 07:32 AM Response to Reply #5 |
100. Dems already have the substance |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:17 AM Response to Reply #4 |
7. "Give me gimmickry or give me death!" |
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KittyWampus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:44 AM Response to Reply #7 |
15. No, The Public Certainly Does NOT Often See It For What It Is. |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:26 PM Response to Reply #15 |
22. Different audience-- Democrats are not Dittoheads |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:34 PM Response to Reply #22 |
24. Luntz HAS to lie. He has nothing else. |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:30 PM Response to Reply #24 |
39. Please read it more carefully |
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Matariki (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:52 PM Response to Reply #15 |
30. you are SO right about this |
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OzarkDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 07:31 AM Response to Reply #4 |
99. False choice |
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rexcat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:16 AM Response to Original message |
6. It looks like the Democrats in Congress are... |
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Vincardog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:18 AM Response to Original message |
8. Has any body stopped to consider that |
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shance (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 04:35 PM Response to Reply #8 |
73. Thank you Vincar - great points. |
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Maraya1969 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 03:22 PM Response to Reply #8 |
107. What are we supposed to do? Really, give us concrete things |
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Maraya1969 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:20 AM Response to Original message |
9. Can someone come up with a list of framing phrases we could |
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Vincardog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:30 AM Response to Reply #9 |
10. Abortion is about PRIVACY no body is pro abortion we are just |
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Maraya1969 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 03:14 PM Response to Reply #10 |
106. I really wish you hadn't used that terminology. It's derogatory |
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Totally Committed (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:31 AM Response to Reply #9 |
12. Another great resource for all who want to learn more: |
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NightOwwl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:24 PM Response to Reply #9 |
21. Reframe the issue of raising taxes... |
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shoelace414 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:58 PM Response to Reply #9 |
32. there is my website |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:05 PM Response to Reply #9 |
34. Better than a list to memorize, learn HOW to frame here... |
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central scrutinizer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 09:15 PM Response to Reply #9 |
84. an example |
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Fly by night (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:30 AM Response to Original message |
11. Framing doesn't matter a damn bit if the votes aren't counted as cast. |
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Totally Committed (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:41 AM Response to Reply #11 |
14. I think about the massive Voter Fraud all the time... |
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Imagevision (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:34 PM Response to Reply #14 |
92. i TOATALLY AGREE ON VOTER FRAUD OVER-LOOKED BY MEDIA! |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:56 AM Response to Reply #11 |
17. Let's set our secret decoder rings |
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Spiffarino (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:00 PM Response to Reply #11 |
18. Understanding how to frame the debate will make change possible |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:38 PM Response to Reply #18 |
26. You're right: "it's not entirely due to their control of mass media" |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:47 PM Response to Reply #26 |
29. You're confusing "framing" with lying... |
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Spiffarino (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:41 PM Response to Reply #26 |
41. You're adding your own meaning to my words |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:12 PM Response to Reply #41 |
52. Response in digi-discussion wasn't an attempt to "spin" your meaning |
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Spiffarino (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 12:27 AM Response to Reply #52 |
96. Apologies if I am being hypersensitive. |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-19-05 10:14 AM Response to Reply #96 |
113. In a nutshell |
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Spiffarino (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-19-05 03:00 PM Response to Reply #113 |
115. You said it: "The 'serfs' know" |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-19-05 11:34 PM Response to Reply #115 |
117. What we say as important as how we say it |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 04:24 PM Response to Reply #26 |
72. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 07:31 PM Response to Reply #72 |
77. Deleted message |
bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 07:46 PM Response to Reply #26 |
78. In it's essence, framing does mean setting the terms. |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 08:04 PM Response to Reply #26 |
80. "Using language that is simple and accessible and changes minds" |
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flpoljunkie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:03 PM Response to Reply #11 |
19. Exactly! But first we have to give people a reason to vote for Democrats! |
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Maraya1969 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:36 PM Response to Reply #11 |
25. Yes that is an excellent point - We won the last two elections |
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Bernardo de La Paz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:41 PM Response to Original message |
28. The Power Party vs the Truth Party |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 12:56 PM Response to Original message |
31. Deleted message |
Totally Committed (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:05 PM Response to Reply #31 |
35. I disagree... it's not JUST telling the truth... |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:07 PM Response to Reply #35 |
36. What's the difference? |
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Totally Committed (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:23 PM Response to Reply #36 |
38. Here's the difference: |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:44 PM Response to Reply #38 |
43. And isn't the truth....? |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:49 PM Response to Reply #43 |
44. To tell the truth EFFECTIVELY. |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:55 PM Response to Reply #44 |
47. We can agree on that... |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:18 PM Response to Reply #47 |
53. Deleted message |
Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:24 PM Response to Reply #53 |
55. Deleted message |
ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:31 PM Response to Reply #55 |
56. So as long as he speaks the truth, a third grader will always win... |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:33 PM Response to Reply #56 |
58. Yes. |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:49 PM Response to Reply #58 |
59. Even if the Harvard student debates the truth more effectively? |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:51 PM Response to Reply #59 |
60. Then it would be a draw... |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 03:01 PM Response to Reply #60 |
61. So crying "scintillating conflagration" in a crowed moviehouse... |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 03:10 PM Response to Reply #61 |
65. Why would you yell "scintillating conflagration" in a movie house? |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 03:21 PM Response to Reply #65 |
67. Because you said the truth alone will set thee free. |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 03:56 PM Response to Reply #67 |
69. The truth - not a half-truth... |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 04:03 PM Response to Reply #69 |
70. Look it up. |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 04:10 PM Response to Reply #70 |
71. Still intentionally deceptive... |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 08:10 PM Response to Reply #71 |
81. So context is important... Hmmm... |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 09:04 PM Response to Reply #81 |
82. You say tomato... |
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Spiffarino (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 01:49 PM Response to Reply #31 |
46. That is why they're so afraid of Dean. |
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cestpaspossible (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:03 PM Response to Original message |
49. Matt Bai seems pretty upset that the Democrats have won a battle or two. |
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Hidden Stillness (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:07 PM Response to Original message |
50. Don't "Frame" like Know-it-Alls; Just Fight What Republicans are Doing |
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kentuck (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:10 PM Response to Reply #50 |
51. Well said... |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:20 PM Response to Reply #50 |
54. DING DING DING DING DING We have a winner! Thank you all for playing |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 10:25 PM Response to Reply #54 |
88. so you prefer strings of goofy cliches from TV shows..... |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 02:33 PM Response to Reply #50 |
57. Deleted message |
bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 05:50 PM Response to Reply #50 |
75. i am for reproductive freedom, for choice, for privacy + keeping the govt |
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oxbow (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 03:04 PM Response to Original message |
62. In my view, the most important part of this article- |
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gulliver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 03:07 PM Response to Original message |
63. The "framing" topic itself is misframed. We'd better watch it. |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 11:23 PM Response to Reply #63 |
91. yep, and this is mostly coming from |
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bleever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 03:16 PM Response to Original message |
66. Framing is inevitable. It is inherent in any statement. It is |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 05:39 PM Response to Reply #66 |
74. exactly. the concept of framing is understanding how to get your |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-19-05 08:25 AM Response to Reply #66 |
111. Wow, what you say is so true on so many levels. |
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AX10 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 03:35 PM Response to Original message |
68. kick |
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athena (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 06:39 PM Response to Original message |
76. Hello? Has no one noticed how pro-Republican the article is? |
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Totally Committed (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 07:18 AM Response to Reply #76 |
98. My feeling was this: |
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rman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 09:10 AM Response to Reply #76 |
102. Repubs: deliberate deceptive framing, Dems: intuitive ineffective framing |
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usregimechange (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 09:06 PM Response to Original message |
83. Abd we have to fall in line with frames, echo them collectively |
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WhoWantsToBeOccupied (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-17-05 10:05 PM Response to Original message |
87. NYT framing as "framing" when real problem is election theft!!! |
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wli (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 03:30 AM Response to Reply #87 |
97. underestimating the common man |
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WhoWantsToBeOccupied (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 12:16 PM Response to Reply #97 |
104. I agree with your broad point, but there ARE many ignorant Americans |
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rman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 08:56 AM Response to Original message |
101. Framing is inherent to language, it is not a gimmick, not RW, not lying |
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Redleg (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 03:40 PM Response to Reply #101 |
109. You are absolutely right. |
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Festivito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 09:46 AM Response to Original message |
103. ..framing, yes, but, it is NOT just framing. |
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Larkspur (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 02:53 PM Response to Original message |
105. Seeds of a Democratic progressive mantra can be found in Riane Eisler's |
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Bernardo de La Paz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jul-18-05 04:04 PM Response to Original message |
110. The New Meme (Frame) is: Bush Failed to Fire Rove . . . nt |
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ClassWarrior (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-19-05 10:13 AM Response to Original message |
112. Folks, you've just witnessed the birth of a new Radical RW frame. |
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omega minimo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jul-19-05 03:12 PM Response to Reply #112 |
116. Concerns about application of "framing" aren't RW or "Chomsky bitterness" |
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