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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:44 AM
Original message
A Must-Read! -- NYT Magazine Cover Story: "The Framing Wars"...
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 09:45 AM by Totally Committed
The Framing Wars
By MATT BAI
Published: July 17, 2005 (NYT Sunday Magazine)

First Four Paragraphs:

After last November's defeat, Democrats were like aviation investigators sifting through twisted metal in a cornfield, struggling to posit theories about the disaster all around them. Some put the onus on John Kerry, saying he had never found an easily discernable message. Others, including Kerry himself, wrote off the defeat to the unshakable realities of wartime, when voters were supposedly less inclined to jettison a sitting president. Liberal activists blamed mushy centrists. Mushy centrists blamed Michael Moore. As the weeks passed, however, at Washington dinner parties and in public post-mortems, one explanation took hold not just among Washington insiders but among far-flung contributors, activists and bloggers too: the problem wasn't the substance of the party's agenda or its messenger as much as it was the Democrats' inability to communicate coherently. They had allowed Republicans to control the language of the debate, and that had been their undoing.

Even in their weakened state, Democrats resolved not to let it happen again. And improbably, given their post-election gloom, they managed twice in the months that followed to make good on that pledge. The first instance was the skirmish over the plan that the president called Social Security reform and that everybody else, by spring, was calling a legislative disaster. The second test for Democrats was their defense of the filibuster (the time-honored stalling tactic that prevents the majority in the Senate from ending debate), which seemed at the start a hopeless cause but ended in an unlikely stalemate. These victories weren't easy to account for, coming as they did at a time when Republicans seem to own just about everything in Washington but the first-place Nationals. (And they're working on that.) During the first four years of the Bush administration, after all, Democrats had railed just as loudly against giveaways to the wealthy and energy lobbyists, and all they had gotten for their trouble were more tax cuts and more drilling. Something had changed in Washington -- but what?

Democrats thought they knew the answer. Even before the election, a new political word had begun to take hold of the party, beginning on the West Coast and spreading like a virus all the way to the inner offices of the Capitol. That word was ''framing.'' Exactly what it means to ''frame'' issues seems to depend on which Democrat you are talking to, but everyone agrees that it has to do with choosing the language to define a debate and, more important, with fitting individual issues into the contexts of broader story lines. In the months after the election, Democratic consultants and elected officials came to sound like creative-writing teachers, holding forth on the importance of metaphor and narrative.

Republicans, of course, were the ones who had always excelled at framing controversial issues, having invented and popularized loaded phrases like ''tax relief'' and ''partial-birth abortion'' and having achieved a kind of Pravda-esque discipline for disseminating them. But now Democrats said that they had learned to fight back. ''The Democrats have finally reached a level of outrage with what Republicans were doing to them with language,'' Geoff Garin, a leading Democratic pollster, told me in May.

Entire Story (Long, but crucial reading for all Democrats and other Progressives!):

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17DEMOCRATS.html?


TC
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. kick...
I hope people are reading this...
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MsConduct Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. Mind Blowing to say the least! Thanks and KICK. n/t
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Language matters...
NGU.


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central scrutinizer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
64. All DUers should read George Lakoff
His booklet, "Don't Think of an Elephant" which costs less than $10 and is a distillation of several of his longer, more scholarly works is a must read on framing an issue. The foreword is by Howard Dean.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. I side with Harry Reid, "I'm not involved in any of that gimmickry.''
And also the author of the article, Matt Bai, sums it up rather nicely at the end, "The right words can frame an argument, but they will never stand in its place."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17DEMOCRATS.html?pagewanted=all

The Democrats need to come together as a party and distinguish themselves from the Republicans, in the way they vote--until they do, we will keep losing.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Of course you need the substance to go along with the style, otherwise...
...you're a Republican.

NGU.


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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Obviously you need meaning to go along with the marketing, otherwise
you're a bullshit artist
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Fortunately, our side HAS the meaning.
We don't need to lie. Just to tell the truth more effectively.

NGU.


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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Well-meaning phrases are capsized by perceived cynical superiority
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 12:15 PM by omega minimo
The salt o' the earth, independents and undecideds that Democrats need to reach are repulsed by euphimistic, think-tanked marketing-speak. You say "we don't need to lie" but modern marketing techniques (and Luntzcraft) are founded on untruths and manipulation. The public recognizes it IMMEDIATELY.

The concept of carefully crafted language is valuable. However, Democratic "framing" fans fall into the trap of thinking they are superior to or separate from the folks they need to reach.

Focus on delivery of "loaded phrases" and pretty soon you need a catapult.

Especially if the "framing" further distanced the audience from the intended meaning of the message.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:30 PM
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
79. how does "framing" further distance the audience from the intended
meaning of the message?
Can you cite how Lakoff advocates this at all? Or are you talking about republicans again? and if so, why? no one here advocates following the republican way of spinning lies, even though you seem hell bent to believe that.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. Meanwhile
you just seem hell bent.


"even though you seem hell bent to believe that."


How can folks advocating improving communication be so hostile towards discussion? Not much of an endorsement for "framing."
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. no answers, huh?
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 10:03 PM by bettyellen
you keep saying using frames involves deception somehow, yet most other people here have tried to explain it doesn't.
so, i think hell bent was accurate. did you however, just call me bent? tsk tsk.
and no answers, nothing to explain your position. nothing to correct everyones feeling that you just aren't getting it.

"Using language that is simple and accessible and changes minds" is unacceptable to you?
so, you'd prefer we'd be inacessible and unpersuasive?
oh, please explain further how that will help.



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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Correct. My questions met with resistance but no answers were offered
I'm sorry dear, you have already ended the discussion. Now you return to pick a fight. That is bent.

I am still curious about why some "framing" advocates are unable to discuss this rationally.

Maybe that's why the NYT called it "The Framing Wars"

Good luck, BE
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. no answers, just trashing lakoff, and you think that's rational.
look at your own posts, they are dripping wirth bitterness and non-sensical cliches. most of them got deleted, LOL.
you failed to score any points for your argument here. i guess it's the old chomsky bitterness thing. how fun for you.
:boring:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:43 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:02 AM
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LonelyLRLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
95. Framing doesn't have to be equivalent to lying
That's what the Bush admin and repukes do - "no child left behind" - "clean air act" - "death tax" and on and on.

IMO there is nothing wrong with using language effectively to accurately convey an idea.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
108. I disagree - They made up the word 'Pro-life" and they are anything
but! I think we should remind people that Roe V Wade is about "Privacy" and people who are truly "Pro-life" do not endorse the death penalty or war.

Now maybe that is "framing" but they are the ones who "framed" the term "pro life".

I really do not understand your argument. I do not think explaining Roe V Wade and its' inconsistency with respect to Pro-lifers as think tanked and untruthful. It is really just a better way to explain the obvious to the tunnel visioned.
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navvet Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
114. We are already coming across as arrogant and
condesending to a lot of people I know. They can relate to union blue collar people in my neighborhood.

But they have a stereo type of the upity white educated look down their noses because we are smarter than you liberal democrat. At least that is what I have seen.

The only reason they keep voting for Democrats is because of union influence.

And in other parts of Kenosha county they vote GOP and in growing numbers.

"Especially if the "framing" further distanced the audience from the intended meaning of the message."

If we continue to do what omega points out then we continue to lose.


Not every one who voted for the GOP last year is a bible waving foaming at the mouth fundy with little or no brains.

We would do well to remember that.


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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
45. but we don't have the voting machines nt
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Gay Green Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. In other words,
a Republican.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
100. Dems already have the substance
They just need to learn to market themselves better.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. "Give me gimmickry or give me death!"
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 11:28 AM by omega minimo
....No, that doesn't sound right.....


Framing is marketing manipulation.

The public recognizes it for what it is. It will backfire on Democrats who presume to creatively manipulate an audience they consider beneath their level. Framing does not engage-- it distances the audience from the message.

"Republicans, of course, were the ones who had always excelled at framing controversial issues, having invented and popularized loaded phrases like ''tax relief'' and ''partial-birth abortion'' and having achieved a kind of Pravda-esque discipline for disseminating them."

"....Pravda-esque discipline for disseminating them." Fight propaganda with propaganda and what have you got?

"But now Democrats said that they had learned to fight back.'The Democrats have finally reached a level of outrage with what Republicans were doing to them with language,'' Geoff Garin, a leading Democratic pollster, told me in May."

Democrats have not reached a level of outrage with what Republicans are doing with language-- they want to replicate it! They are not "fighting back;" they are fighting bullshit with bullshit.

The salt o' the earth, independents and undecideds that Democrats need to reach are repulsed by euphimistic, think-tanked marketing-speak.

The concept of carefully crafted language is valuable. However, Democratic "framing" fans fall into the trap of thinking they are superior to or separate from the folks they need to reach.

Focus on delivery of "loaded phrases" and pretty soon you need a catapult.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. No, The Public Certainly Does NOT Often See It For What It Is.
For instance, "Pro-Life" is a suggestive, loaded term that crept into our collective vocabulary and it's only recently that the Left has woken up to the need to counter it.

And "Framing" is NOT market manipulation.

It's how you build your case, whether it's a political issue or an essay written for school, a resume for a job or even a casual conversation.

Framing is a Universal Principle.

It's part of how things move from the realm of Archetypes and Potential to the realm of Physical Reality.

And a successful job at Framing means you'll have a structure that can withstand outside forces.

Please read my signature line.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Different audience-- Democrats are not Dittoheads
And "framing" IS market manipulation. Luntz techniques are based on marketing manipulation. Google "Wise Use Movement" and see where that gets you. Or maybe "Frank Luntz Newt Gingrich."

The concept of carefully crafted language is valuable. However, Democratic "framing" fans fall into the trap of thinking they are superior to or separate from the folks they need to reach.

The salt o' the earth, independents and undecideds that Democrats need to reach are repulsed by euphemistic, think-tanked marketing-speak.

"A successful job at framing" will derive from those who do not distance themselves from the pubic they hope to communicate with.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Luntz HAS to lie. He has nothing else.
We have the enviable task of framing - or, in other words, effectively communicating - the truth.

And why on earth would you assert that Democrats are our audience, given the fact that they're already on our side? "Independents," moderate Repubs, and nonvoters are the people whom we need to reach..

NGU.


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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
39. Please read it more carefully
:hi:
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. you are SO right about this
i realized way back in the 80's that something weird was going on with language and the republican party when i heard people who didn't know each other and lived on opposite sides of the country say the same phrases WORD FOR WORD in defense of Reagan. These were intelligent people, moderate republicans - not 'dittoheads'.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
99. False choice
As we've said repeatedly, Dems already have good values, good vision and a proven record of success with their entire agenda.

But that's not enough to beat Repubs, you have to have message discipline and communications strategies, too.

Dems have a good product, they have to focus on selling it.

Reid is dead wrong to assume he has to sacrifice anything in order to do a better job of framing the message. Please tell me our Dem leaders aren't that dense.
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rexcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. It looks like the Democrats in Congress are...
getting the point on "framing" the debate, albeit some of them kicking and screaming the entire way.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. Has any body stopped to consider that
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 11:23 AM by Vincardog
Republicans, of course, were the ones who had always excelled at framing controversial issues,

Because they own the MEDIA? that the statement that
Republicans, of course , were the ones who had always excelled at framing controversial issues,

Is the best example of 'FRAMING' to be found?

Remember who owns NYT?

Did any one ever stop to think that perhaps the Vote Counting Machines are the reason WE WON but did not get sworn in?

We have to quit being distracted into investigating lies and focus
on ELECTION reform and FAIR CLEAN ELECTIONS.
Anybody who votes against a transparent electoral process WANTS TO CHEAT.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
73. Thank you Vincar - great points.
n/t
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
107. What are we supposed to do? Really, give us concrete things
that we can do NOW that will make the next election fair. I think we need a think tank just for this.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
9. Can someone come up with a list of framing phrases we could
use? I would but I am way busy right now. The far right gives their people "talking points". We should do the same.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Abortion is about PRIVACY no body is pro abortion we are just
in favor of everyones privacy in their medical decisions.

Gay Marriage is about equal protection. How can letting one man's husband get insurance coverage hurt hetro mirages? Doesn't everyone deserve to be treated the same? IF it hurts insurance companies profits that is their job.

Stopping the the wet backs is not the answer to immigration reform. Paying decent wages in the answer to all those illegals there are plenty of Merikans willing to work for a decent wage. So what if tomatoes cost an extra penny a pound?
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
106. I really wish you hadn't used that terminology. It's derogatory
Just a reminder for the future.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Another great resource for all who want to learn more:
Tom Ball's "Framing Project" for PoliticalStrategy.org... A comprehensive framing and tactical assault project which uses the work of Lakoff, Frank Luntz, and more.

Here is a partial listing of what you will find there:

Framing: Primer for a Progressive Revolution

Part I -- Philosophy and Rational for Framing (02/01/05)
Part II -- The Nurturant Parent Vs. the Strict Father (02/02/05)
Part III -- Techniques, Rules, and Execution (02/03/05)
Part IV -- Strategic and Slippery Slope Inititiatives (02/03/05)
Part V -- Implementation: Respond with 'Value-Based' Answers (02/16/05)

----

Foundation: "Take Back America"

Introduction: Here's the Plan (03/23/05)

----

Keywords

-- Use 'Keywords' To Frame the Debate

-- Describe your Opponent with 'Words of Weakness' (02/4/05)

----

Frank Luntz "Straight Talk" -- Searchable Text-Version

Environment: A Cleaner, Safer, Healthier America (04/07/05)

----

Also Available in PDF:

Frank Luntz Republican Playbook for 2006 -- Searchable Text-Version

PART I "Introduction" (02/24/05)
PART II "Setting the Context and Tone" (02/26/05)
PART III "Growth, Prosperity, & Restore Energy and Economic Security" (02/27/05)
PART IV "International Trade: Promoting America's Competitiveness" (02/28/05)
PART V "The Budget: Ending Wasteful Washington Spending" (03/01/05)
PART VI "Tax Relief & Simplification" (03/02/05)
PART VII "Social Security = Retirement Security" (Part a) (03/03/05)
PART VII "Social Security = Retirement Security" (Part b) (03/03/05)
PART VIII "Lawsuit Abuse Reform: A Commonsense Approach" (03/04/05)
PART IX "An Energy Policy for the 21st Century" (03/06/05)
PART X "Appendix: The 14 Words Never to Use" (03/04/05)

Complete project and all articles:

http://www.politicalstrategy.org/
(Go to Left-hand Column, and click on "The Framing Project")

TC

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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Reframe the issue of raising taxes...
Instead of talking about the issue in terms of raising taxes...frame it as:

1) Giving back to our country and our military
2) Providing a secure future for our children

In the immortal words of John F. Kennedy: "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country." Simply put, paying taxes is form of patriotism.


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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. there is my website
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. Better than a list to memorize, learn HOW to frame here...
http://www.politicalstrategy.org/

Scroll down to "The Framing Project" and "Tactical Assault Project" in the left menu bar.

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll eat forever." - Arrested Development

NGU.


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central scrutinizer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
84. an example
Repukes scream: Tax Relief - it's your money!!

Better frame: Taxes are your investment in the future - education, infrastructure, etc.

Much more in Lakoff's book - highly recommended
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
11. Framing doesn't matter a damn bit if the votes aren't counted as cast.
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 11:31 AM by Fly by night
Nothing irritates me more than continual hand-wringing about our message being the problem and how we need to massage it (or make it more conservative).

Bullshit. We could "frame" until the forests are gone, we could learn the secret handshake and how to hold our mouths just right, and we will still get our assess handed to us in each and every election. Until we require voter-verified paper ballots, mandatory random manual recounts/audits and capital punishment for traitors who illegally thwart the "consent of the governed", we will get nowhere.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I think about the massive Voter Fraud all the time...
I believe it a huge puzzle-piece to the larger puzzle that includes "Framing" as a piece as well.

We should be working on making sure every piece of the puzzle fits and is in place by 2006, and 2008.

Just my opinion.

TC
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
92. i TOATALLY AGREE ON VOTER FRAUD OVER-LOOKED BY MEDIA!
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Let's set our secret decoder rings
At a MoveOn.org Lakoff house party in Jan. '05, right after Congress endorsed the illegal re-selection of Nov. 2004, one of the group leaders, in response to concerns some had about election fraud, came up with instant framing for it:

"Sour grapes."

Waitaminute-- isn't that REPUGNANTAN framing?

All these folks were worshipping Lakoff and playing with Post-it's and ignoring the Rather Large Elephant In The White House. Why were people SO eager to skip over the subject of the second hijacked election and move on to Next Time?

You're right.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Understanding how to frame the debate will make change possible
Framing is essential if voters are to understand what is happening to them. Two-word phrases like "election fraud" and "vote-rigging" are good, but are they easy to understand and remember? Are they valid points to the average Jane or Joe?

To ensure that voters know what's at stake and what the neocons have done to our democracy, we must make the progressive message clear and understandable to average, busy people. In fact, the words and phrases we use must be "viral".

Republicans have excelled at this for years, and it's not entirely due to their control of mass media. Yes, Frank Luntz is a scumbag, but he is also a genius when it comes to using language that is simple and accessible and changes minds.

We must be as good or better at framing, or we risk being swept away.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. You're right: "it's not entirely due to their control of mass media"
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 12:43 PM by omega minimo
IT'S BECAUSE THEY LIE AND THEY DON'T CARE.

"Republicans have excelled at this for years, and it's not entirely due to their control of mass media."

"Yes, Frank Luntz is a scumbag, but he is also a genius when it comes to using language that is simple and accessible and changes minds."

"Using language that is simple and accessible and changes minds" is propaganda. A means to an end. Are Dems trying to replicate "a scumbag" genius, and let the ends justify the means? THAT WILL BACKFIRE ON DEMOCRATS. WON'T WORK.

"We must be as good or better at framing, or we risk being swept away."

We have already been swept away into a Hall of Mirrors, where NO ONE can keep up with the spin and the bullshit. The president goes on TV and tells the public that he needs to constantly repeat himself, to "catapult the propaganda," to deliver lie after lie after lie. TO OUR FACES.

If Dems demonstrate we are talking about "framing" ON OUR TERMS, I am on board. If Democrats try to imitate the same techniques, applications and attitudes as Repug framers, they will fail.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. You're confusing "framing" with lying...
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 12:50 PM by ClassWarrior
...or what Lakoff calls "Orwellian speak." They're two separate things entirely. Which you would know if you had read "Don't Think of an Elephant" or any other significant examination of this subject in order to have an informed opinion.

NGU.


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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. You're adding your own meaning to my words
I did not for an instant suggest taking up the RW Spin Machine's tactic of "Lie-Rinse-Repeat" and I defy you to show me where I said anything remotely like it. If that's what you read into it, then maybe you don't understand what "framing" means.

Read Lakoff, Thomas Frank, and yes, even Luntz. Framing does not mean lying. It's a way to triumph in the public arena and ensure that the Democratic narrative is heard and understood.

Example:

Repubs say: Compassionate Conservative
Progs say: Corporate Conservative

Repubs say: Death Tax
Progs say: Paris Hilton Tax

Would framing in this case be spreading lies?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
52. Response in digi-discussion wasn't an attempt to "spin" your meaning
If Dems demonstrate we are talking about "framing" ON OUR TERMS, I am on board. If Democrats try to imitate the same techniques, applications and attitudes as Repug framers, they will fail.

:hug:

We may have dueling premises here:
Do the "framing" faithful insist that "Framing = Not Lying"?
Do the "framing" faithful acknowledge that marketing techniques and framing as utilized by the Repugs are all about untruthtelling?

Your insight will be doubleplusgood, if you care to give it.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #52
96. Apologies if I am being hypersensitive.
:hug: backatcha.

The "framing faithful"? Excellent...you definitely get it! I agree that if the Dems resort to lying and distortion they are doomed to fail. Progressives aren't terribly fond of bullshit no matter how much it makes the garden grow.

What IS paramount is that progressives, liberals and Democrats need a narrative, and every narrative needs a framework on which to build. That's what makes framing so important. It's how we can start rebuilding a progressive voter base. Once people catch on to a few simple phrases they will start listening to the message. If the message is compelling, they'll stick around and listen some more. And that's the way our viewpoint will be understood and our story gets told.

As for the narrative, I think it should go something like this -

Elite corporations are manipulating you through their control of politicians, natural resources, the stock market, and the mass media. The Republican party is the means through which they maintain and amass power. Elite corporations desire to drive down wages and to eliminate legal remedies and social safeguards of benefit to the average citizen in order to increase their profits and amass ever more power.

Progressives are committed to equality, human rights, and a fair chance for all Americans to achieve a happy and fulfilling life. Progressive representation in government ensures that all American citizens' voices will be heard, not only those of the powerful and connected.


OK great. So, how do we get the message out there? How are folks going to know what we stand for? The answer is, by building a framework that gives structure to the message. A framework that makes the narrative understandable and useful to the greatest number.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #96
113. In a nutshell
"Once people catch on to a few simple phrases they will start listening to the message."

The caution I tried to offer (and inadvertently came off as against any "framing"-- well done or otherwise) is that in crafting those simple phrases or narrative frameworks, that hazard for Dems is in suffering from "ivory towerism." If in its conception, the framing arises from an intellectual separation from the audience, the message will never affect "the greatest number." Unless of course they ARE Repugs, reaching for Dittoheads, creating oversimplified and untruthified jingoistic catchphrases.

Framing is marketing manipulation. That is a true statement. The techniques of marketing used to manipulate the market. Are those words evil in and of themselves? No. Do I mean the techniques can not be used constructively (non-cynically) for Dems? No. Do I think "framing faithful" need to consider the industry origin (and Republican applications) of the techniques and and not swallow whole hog? Yes. Am I Donald Rumsfeld answering my own questions............ well, there is an ongoing investigation.

I was unaware of the "Chomsky bitterness thing" and "old feud" until a rabid guardian at the Gates of Lakoff brought it up..... perhaps those of us who raise concerns are lumped in with all the arguments some "framing" folks think they have heard before. Democratic "framing" efforts would be better served by inclusivitiy, including on DU.

wli in #97 makes the point about the grassroots. The trap for "framing" enthusiasts is imagining an intellectual gap b/w themselves and the "greatest number." wli revealed an important truth and was met with "yeah but there are a lot of ignorant people."

"Framers"! Don't get stuck in the ivory tower. The serfs already know:

"Elite corporations are manipulating you through their control of politicians, natural resources, the stock market, and the mass media. The Republican party is the means through which they maintain and amass power. Elite corporations desire to drive down wages and to eliminate legal remedies and social safeguards of benefit to the average citizen in order to increase their profits and amass ever more power."

If folks feel they are getting another sales pitch from an equally spinzoned team, they will not be persuaded.

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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. You said it: "The 'serfs' know"
Edited on Tue Jul-19-05 03:03 PM by Spiffarino
Problem is, nobody is standing up for them in any real way. The Dems gave up on them long ago and went to feed at the corporate trough. The Republicans came and filled in the void by playing on their fears and hatreds.

Your points are well-taken. The message only means as much as they match the actions that follow them. This is why the Republicans are beginning to lose their grip.

Their "moral values" end after every election. What follows are more tax cuts and handouts to the obscenely wealthy, but very little action on anti-abortion and homophobe-friendly legislation that make the hardcore fundies drool. And the fact is, the Repubs can't let it happen. Without hot-button issues, the Republicans have nothing to offer them.

No, we can't allow our side to do that. If we offer greater opportunity, fairness, and freedom, it has to be more than words or we will end up worse off.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. What we say as important as how we say it
Edited on Tue Jul-19-05 11:41 PM by omega minimo
Those who are most brilliant and inspiring, somehow those become the same thing......

"The Dems gave up on them long ago and went to feed at the corporate trough. The Republicans came and filled in the void by playing on their fears and hatreds."

There are many aspects to the techniques Repugs use. One reason I am concerned about the success of how Dems adopt "framing" principles, is that we will be battling the aftereffects of 3 decades of political crazymaking and hyperactive marketing inflicted on the public.

Several folks here mentioned that the FACT of unverifiable electronic elections is a priority perhaps greater than how to build a better mousetrap. That FACT was distracting me in Jan. at the Lakoff party I attended where the Bush selection issue was shrugged off as "sour grapes."

Thanks to the suggestion of someone on this thread, I found an interesting piece that addresses marketing, imagery and elections:

http://www.counterpunch.org/chomsky03122005.html

Both Parties Try to Exclude People from Voting

The Toothpaste Election

By NOAM CHOMSKY

<snip>

People who voted for Bush tended to assume that he was in favor of their views, even if the Republican Party platform was diametrically opposed to them. The same was largely true of Kerry voters.

The reason for this is that the parties try to exclude the population from participation. So they don't present issues, policies, agendas, and so on. They project imagery, and people either don't bother or they vote for the image. The Gallup Poll regularly asks, "Why are you voting?" One of the choices is, "I'm voting for the candidate's stand on issues." That was 6% for Bush,and 13% for Kerry-and most of those voters were deluded about the positions of the candidates. So what you have is essentially flipping a coin. Each candidate got approximately 30% of the electorate. Bush got 31%, Kerry got 29%.

<snip>

If you listen to the presidential debates, you can't figure out what they're saying, and that's on purpose. The last debate was supposed to be about domestic issues. The New York Times commented that Kerry didn't make any hint about possible government involvement in health care programs because that position has, in their words, "no political support." Well, according to the most recent polls, 80% of the population thinks that the government ought to guarantee health care for everyone, and furthermore regard it as a moral obligation. That tells you something about people's values. But there's "no political support."

<snip>

The elections are run by the same guys who sell toothpaste. They show you an image of a sports hero, or a sexy model, or a car going up a sheer cliff or something, which has nothing to do with the commodity, but it's intended to delude you into picking this one rather than another one. Same when they run elections. But they're assigned that task in order to marginalize the public, and furthermore, people are pretty well aware of it.

For many years, election campaigns here have been run by the public relations industry and each time it's with increasing sophistication. Quite naturally, the industry uses the same technique to sell candidates that it uses to sell toothpaste or lifestyle drugs. The point is to undermine markets by projecting imagery to delude and suppressing information-and similarly, to undermine democracy by the same method.

<snip>

Why don't people care if the election is stolen? The reason is that they don't take the election seriously in the first place. They reacted about the way that people react to television ads. It's a mode of delusion. If the Democrats want to succeed in that game, they're just going to have to figure out better ways of delusion.

There is an alternative, and that is to try to run a program that's committed to developing a democratic society in which people's opinions matter.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
72. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. Deleted message
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
78. In it's essence, framing does mean setting the terms.
so, welcome aboard.
:hi:
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
80. "Using language that is simple and accessible and changes minds"
is unacceptable to you?
so, you'd prefer we'd be inacessible and unpersuasive?
oh, please explain further how that will help.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Exactly! But first we have to give people a reason to vote for Democrats!
And that means actually demonstrating their differences by the votes they cast and the principles they fight for--like economic justice, civil liberties and individual freedom, responsibility for our children's future, and that of the planet.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Yes that is an excellent point - We won the last two elections
but as long as we allow them to be fixed it will show that we lost. I have no idea how to fix the problem except demanding paper receipts and having a Democratic Representative at every voting station. And if they lock the doors you just BREAK IN!!!
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
28. The Power Party vs the Truth Party
The Power party is of course the Republicans. They are interested in power at any price and have been quite successful at it since 1968. Now they control two and a half branches of government (the holdouts are the 9th Circuit Appeals and a margin of one in the Supreme Court). The Power part will say anything to get power and do anything to maintain power. Of course they frame the debate.

The Truth party (Democrats) thinks that speaking truth is sufficient to frame the debate. Of course it is not. They must learn how to frame the truth to get it through.

Ultimately in the long run, truth triumphs over power, just like mathematics rules the universe. However, that long run can take a long time.

The Democrats and progressives and libertarians must not abandon the truth, but they must learn how to frame the debate, and quickly. Framing the debate is not merely manipulating the vocabulary or spinning, but it is also directing the media's attention.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
31. Deleted message
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. I disagree... it's not JUST telling the truth...
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 01:06 PM by Totally Committed
Framing is telling the truth in words carefully chosen for effect.

Howard Dean has always been willing to tell the truth, but when he decided to include words that showed the "weakness" and the "cynicism" of the Republicans, he started scoring some really positive hits! I believe he has read Lakoff, and is using the priciples now in every single speech he gives.

His NAACP speech just this weekend was a brilliant use of the combination of balls, truth-telling, and framing. Read it from that perspective, and you'll see it's true!

TC
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. What's the difference?
"Framing is telling the truth in words carefully chosen for effect."

Truth should should be carefully stated also.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Here's the difference:
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 01:24 PM by Totally Committed
Pro-Life instead of Anti-Choice. By repeating the phrase "Pro-Life" when referring to the Republicans, many Democrats unwittingly call their own Party "Pro-Death". By simply changing that one phrase, and referring to Republicans as "Anti-Choice", sunliminally we become the party of a woman's right to choose. Not all women, when given the right to choose, choose abortion. The Democrats support a women's intelligence and morality when they support her right to choose her own destiny, and plan her family the way she sees fit.

Do you see what I mean? They have cynically framed their position on a Draconian view of a woman's right to choose to their own advantage by making it about abortion, and not about choice.

That's all I'm saying.

TC
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. And isn't the truth....?
Democrats are not "pro-death" - but "pro-choice" because women must have control of their own bodies if we believe in what our Constitution and our nation believes in. By not responding to the "Pro-lifers" is a similar manner is only permitting yourself to be "framed". It is not so much about "framing" to me, as being willing to tell the truth and to speak up.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. To tell the truth EFFECTIVELY.
You can be willing to do anything - ride a bike, for instance. But you'll only succeed if you learn to ride EFFECTIVELY.

NGU.


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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. We can agree on that...
And why don't politicians tell the truth "effectively" ?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Deleted message
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. So as long as he speaks the truth, a third grader will always win...
...a Harvard debate?

NGU.


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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Yes.
.... :)
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Even if the Harvard student debates the truth more effectively?
Touche.

NGU.


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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Then it would be a draw...
Because the truth is still the truth and not a deceptive spin. :)
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. So crying "scintillating conflagration" in a crowed moviehouse...
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 03:03 PM by ClassWarrior
...is equally effective as crying "fire" as long as it's the truth?

NGU.


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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Why would you yell "scintillating conflagration" in a movie house?
Unless you were trying to be deceptive or had ulterior motives? Why not say "Fire!" A "scintillating conflagration" could be construed as something other than a fire? So it would not necessarily be "true".. We are talking about telling people the truth. But your phrasing does show the ambiguousness that many of our politicians have adopted in their language. I'm not sure we really disagree on this??
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Because you said the truth alone will set thee free.
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 03:23 PM by ClassWarrior
And it would be just as true to say, "Gee it's hot in here," to your fellow moviegoers. They're all true. So are they all appropriate? Or effective? Or the proper framing?

Never Give Up.


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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. The truth - not a half-truth...
like a "scintillating conflagration"...
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Look it up.
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 04:04 PM by ClassWarrior
It means "firey fire." That's not a half-truth. That's a double truth.

NGU.


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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Still intentionally deceptive...
Because most people would not know what you were talking about. You may as well be talking in a foreign language...There is a distinction whether you admit it or not.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #71
81. So context is important... Hmmm...
Sounds suspiciously like framing to me.

NGU.


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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. You say tomato...
I say tomato... :)
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. That is why they're so afraid of Dean.
And it's why the Spin Machine goes into overdrive every time he lets out a word. They were scared to death of him in the Dem primaries (which is why Rove showed up at his rallies) and they are pissing all over themselves now that he's in charge at the DNC.

Dean knows that the key is economics. That's why he talked about the Dems being the party of the guy "with the Confederate flag on his pick-up." Liberal purists hated it, but the fact is Bill Clinton had it right. It IS "the economy, stupid." The difference is that, with Dean, it's about economic fairness and leveling the playing field for every American, even the ones we progressives aren't too keen on.
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cestpaspossible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
49. Matt Bai seems pretty upset that the Democrats have won a battle or two.
He does his best to belittle Lakoff, but it all rings pretty hollow... the last half of the article consists almost entirely totally Matt Bai's opinion that the Democrats have no ideas, restated in various ways.
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Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
50. Don't "Frame" like Know-it-Alls; Just Fight What Republicans are Doing
I believe the whole political discourse has been poisoned by academic "framing," which hijacks the whole process as surely as Republican or DLC "consultants" insulting people with simple-minded jargon that even us simple-minded middle-class women can "understand." Democrats need to connect back with their own middle-class roots and begin solving people's problems again, to return to power. I think the attacks against us have stuck until this time because there was nobody doing anything else: Republicans attacking us, unanswered, media attacking us, unanswered, the DLC types have never criticized Republicans but instead only undercut us by stressing that they "are not liberals," "not old-style Democrats,"etc.--you couldn't have been sabotaged better. No criticism for Republicans from their own media OR US, and only attacks and jeering against us by Republicans, their media, AND THE DLC. There was no alternative to this presentation and therefore it seemed real. I believe this was the reason for their success--if only we are criticized, and they are never criticized, how do you think it is going to turn out; who do you think is going to be "popular"?

The proof of the failure of "framing" is right on this thread: the claim that we have no "good frame" for pro-choice on abortion, and Repubs are "so impressive" with "pro-'life'" yet most people favor abortion rights; Repubs are so "brilliant" with "tax relief," yet most people have never favored lower taxes at the expense of the country, and never lowering it for the rich. The claim that abortion is a "privacy" issue, is a male "framing" routine--it is about women's rights, if you would ask us. Bush's approval ratings are in the tank, and yet we get "Repubs are so brilliant" even though they have no popular support--why? They were able to accomplish what they did by owning and controlling the entire media, and even now commercially taking over school operations and curriculum, etc. Republicans made more gains on their agenda by bribery and threat then by anything else; this was how they accomplished it.

Study the issues and learn how to answer people's real questions; drop framing.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Well said...
Tell the truth about the spin.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. DING DING DING DING DING We have a winner! Thank you all for playing
The Ivory Tower cannot see the Grass Roots.

They will need their own catapult to reach the Town Green.

Why not just go down there?

:woohoo: :hide: :grouphug: :kick: :rofl:
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
88. so you prefer strings of goofy cliches from TV shows.....
to clear persuasive messages?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. Deleted message
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #50
75. i am for reproductive freedom, for choice, for privacy + keeping the govt
out of my bedroom. and when i put it that way people understand it's about a lot more than just abortion rights. it's a great frame and i've used it successfully for years.
where do people get the idea that this is a substitute for having answers, policies or integrity?
it's a way to be more aware of our own message, and it does help avoid falling into the trap of validating their spin. it's just a tool to help regain control of the debate. and it's been helping us a great deal lately.
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oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
62. In my view, the most important part of this article-
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 03:45 PM by oxbow
Is near the end:

"What they did next changed the course of American politics. Rather than continue merely to deflect Clinton's agenda, Republicans came up with their own, the Contract With America, which promised 10 major legislative acts that were, at the time, quite provocative. They included reforming welfare, slashing budget deficits, imposing harsher criminal penalties and cutting taxes on small businesses. Those 10 items, taken as a whole, encapsulated a rigid conservative philosophy that had been taking shape for 30 years -- and that would define politics at the end of the 20th century.

By contrast, consider the declaration that House Democrats produced after their session with John Cullinane, the branding expert, last fall. The pamphlet is titled ''The House Democrats' New Partnership for America's Future: Six Core Values for a Strong and Secure Middle Class.'' Under each of the six values -- ''prosperity, national security, fairness, opportunity, community and accountability'' -- is a wish list of vague notions and familiar policy ideas. (''Make health care affordable for every American,'' ''Invest in a fully funded education system that gives every child the skills to succeed'' and so on.) Pelosi is proud of the document, which -- to be fair -- she notes is just a first step toward repackaging the party's agenda. But if you had to pick an unconscious metaphor to attach to it, it would probably be a cotton ball.

Consider, too, George Lakoff's own answer to the Republican mantra. He sums up the Republican message as ''strong defense, free markets, lower taxes, smaller government and family values,'' and in ''Don't Think of an Elephant!'' he proposes some Democratic alternatives: ''Stronger America, broad prosperity, better future, effective government and mutual responsibility.'' Look at the differences between the two. The Republican version is an argument, a series of philosophical assertions that require voters to make concrete choices about the direction of the country. Should we spend more or less on the military? Should government regulate industry or leave it unfettered? Lakoff's formulation, on the other hand, amounts to a vague collection of the least objectionable ideas in American life. Who out there wants to make the case against prosperity and a better future? Who doesn't want an effective government?"






Its hard for dems to make a concise Democratic message because they don't tend to think in absolutes. Big government is not always bad, low taxes are not always good. It's about looking at what's required and making a good decision for that situation.

Instead, Democrats need to make 5 or 10 year plans, telling the public what their focus is gonna to be without limiting the debate with Manichaean contracts of beliefs. This way, there is a clear game plan that people can point to when the talking heads say "all dems know how to do is whine."
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
63. The "framing" topic itself is misframed. We'd better watch it.
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 03:07 PM by gulliver
I like the article and think it is right on the mark. Maybe we will finally get in the game. It actually pisses me off that this sort of thing is not obvious. Astonishing really.

What the hell is Madison Avenue?

I'm worried now the idea of framing is getting misframed as some sort of way of programming human beings. That's a bad framing. We have to watch it.

If I use the term "framing" it is as a shortcut. It doesn't mean I don't believe what I am saying. I'm afraid "framing" will come to mean that and anyone who listens to Lakoff will be framed as a "framing" type.

Let's be analytical but not too clinical and technical. It's no fun. It should be more like persuading, wooing, flirting, entertaining than manipulating. If it's manipulative, it's what Rove does.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #63
91. yep, and this is mostly coming from
the chomskeyites it's a boring continuation of a that feud. and the really helpful arguement that they have is all "messaging" is imarketng is evil. i have yet to hear how they think a modern campaign can be run.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
66. Framing is inevitable. It is inherent in any statement. It is
"value-neutral", in that it does not in and of itself possess "bad" or "good" qualities.

It is the implied but unspoken context that any statement carries with it.

Some people seem to confuse "framing" with spinning or lying, which it can of course be used for. But framing itself is not those things; it is being conscious to choose the unspoken context implied in a formulation of words.

For example, if one of my kids spills some milk, and I say "Be more careful! You got it on the rug!" the implication is that he spilled because he was being careless, and that I hold him to blame. If I say, "Grab a towel and wipe it up", it doesn't imply blame or anger on my part, and does imply that the situation can be handled in a simple and direct way.

Being a parent has made me more acutely aware of how each thing I say to my kids carries a tacit message about who I think they are and how I interpret their actions. My personal belief is that while most people tend to use the frames their parents used on them, there is tremendous power in being conscious of the tacit messages that we are usually unaware of, and taking care to actually choose the tacit messages.

Correcting your kids with a formulation that acknowledges them as being capable, and of being able to improve, is much better than statements that seem to imply that their failures are inherent and lamentable. "How many times do I have to tell you...", "What did I say about doing that...", "What the heck were you thinking..." "Why can't you be more careful", and so on.

Likewise in the arena of politics, careful and conscious framing isn't about lying, twisting, or scamming (though that's what the other side does so well, and so shamelessly). It's about choosing your words to connect with people so that they feel the broader context. We're not talking about disconnecting from people because of reliance of fancy verbal footwork; quite the opposite.

The other side uses framing to imply that because they're "pro-life", we're less concerned about life, or even pro-death; when they say "tax relief", they imply that taxes are an unnecessary burden afflicted on innocent people, and that we support this affliction. These implications are clearly false, and this kind of framing is inimical to honesty and truth.

But framing properly done on our side accomplishes the opposite. By talking about "tax fairness", we imply that the burden is unfairly distributed (which it is) and that we'll restore fairness. Similarly, all our formulations should carry not only an explicit message, but also implicity point back to a context that we actually already share with people. We are seeking to connect on both the literal and tacit levels.

The fact that the other side does this in ways that are disingenous and downright insidious should not dissuade us from doing it properly ourselves.


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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. exactly. the concept of framing is understanding how to get your
message out with more impact and resonance. there's nothing wrong with that.
our party has had serious problems getting it's message out, but lately they've learned to take over the debate instead of responding to (and therefore accepting) RW spin.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #66
111. Wow, what you say is so true on so many levels.
The parental perspective especially resonates. I've heard parents admonish their kids by saying, "Why do you always have to (thus and such behavior problem)?..." Well, if the goal is to change the children's behavior, why is the assumption that they "always have to" implicit in the admonition?? A better frame would be "Why do you (thus and such behavior problem) so often?..."

Your key insight is also important to note. One cannot change another person's mind. It's just not possible. You can only reinforce - or "de-inforce" - what's already there. In other words, we make connections, as you said, when we can "implicitly point back to a context that we actually already share with people." That's the tricky part of framing: being able to put aside preconceptions enough to get inside someone else's head.

Good job, Bro. :hi: I suspect from this post that you may have already read "Metaphors We Live By," by George Lakoff - one of his academic, non-political books on framing. If not, you should. I'm currently working on it myself, but it is surprisingly digestable for a scholarly work.

NGU.


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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
68. kick
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athena Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
76. Hello? Has no one noticed how pro-Republican the article is?
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 06:42 PM by athena
Please, people, read the whole thing, not just the first page. Its whole purpose is to paint Democrats as manipulative.

I quote from the third page:

For their part, Democrats were euphoric at having played the G.O.P. to a draw. The facts of the filibuster fight hadn't necessarily favored them; in reality, the constitutional principle of ''checks and balances'' on which the Democrats' case was based refers to the three branches of government, not to some parliamentary procedure, and it was actually the Democrats who had broken with Senate tradition by using the filibuster to block an entire slate of judges.


...

The father of framing is a man named George Lakoff ...


No, it's the republican party. The republicans were already framing and manipulating thirty years ago. They didn't start with the 2004 election, as Bai suggests.

According to Lakoff, Republicans are skilled at using loaded language, along with constant repetition, to play into the frames in our unconscious minds.


Sure. Only according to Lakoff ... When the article talks about Democrats, it's "Democrats have framed ...." When it talks about Republicans, it's "According to Lakoff, the Republicans have framed ..." Read page 5 and see how carefully Bai avoids suggesting that the republicans use or have ever used framing.

From page 6:

Bill Clinton had been an intuitive master of framing.


Note that it's not "according to X, Bill Clinton had been ..."

Later on, he also starts trying to disparage Lakoff. From page 10:

The question here is whether Lakoff purposely twists his own academic theories to better suit his partisan audience or whether his followers are simply hearing what they want to hear and ignoring the rest.


And finally, the conclusion, which basically says that Republicans have true principles and Democrats only words:

What all these middling generalities suggest, perhaps, is that Democrats are still unwilling to put their more concrete convictions about the country into words, either because they don't know what those convictions are or because they lack confidence in the notion that voters can be persuaded to embrace them. Either way, this is where the power of language meets its outer limit. The right words can frame an argument, but they will never stand in its place.


This is the most openly biased article I've ever seen the NYT publish.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #76
98. My feeling was this:
Yes, the NYT has gone way to the right, except for its Editorial page. But, you are all intelligent enough to see beyond the pro-RW bias of the article and get the infomation in it nonetheless.

Most of the Corporate-owned media (print and broadcast) is pro-Bush, leaning to the RW, or apologist for the RW. That's one of the biggest problems we face in America today. It's hard to get our message out when most of the media leans to the other side.

It is one of the reasons those who believe in "framing" feel it is a must.

TC
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #76
102. Repubs: deliberate deceptive framing, Dems: intuitive ineffective framing
Surely the Dems have not been effective enough to counter the RW framing during the past decades.
Anyway, framing as such is not a RW thing per se. They are good at deceptive framing, but they have not invented framing as such.

Regardless of the article being RW biased or not, it can hardly be denied that there is a framing war going on. And it's quite something for this issue to make it to the MSM.

Regarding Lakoff: the article does not claim that "only" according to Lakoff Republicans are skilled at using loaded language. Fact is that Lakoff is on the forefront of putting this issue on the table. He has a lot to say about it and many people listen to him. He's not the only linguist who knows about framing, but he happens to be the 'expert of the day', so to speak. In this context it is nothing but customary for a writer on the matter to say "according to", when citing an experts' opinion.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
83. Abd we have to fall in line with frames, echo them collectively
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WhoWantsToBeOccupied Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
87. NYT framing as "framing" when real problem is election theft!!!
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #87
97. underestimating the common man
I've been down and out and worked crappy jobs before. And when I talked to the common man, I got surprising answers.

First off, they weren't Republicans. They weren't democrats, either. They thought the entire "two-party system" was a fraud (foreshadowing "regime rotation" commentary) and that all elections were rigged (and given what I've dredged up about 1980 it's not entirely shocking). They thought the news was mostly propaganda ("corporate" hadn't really been coined then as a political phrase, so they were vague on this point but suggested what is now called "corporate propaganda" or otherwise corporate control of the mainstream media). They thought both Communism and Capitalism had a lot of good ideas, but had never been properly implemented, and had a few holes to be patched up, i.e. that neither extreme was perfect and neither extreme bereft of merit. They knew the Republican smears of Clinton were far beyond a sham, and supported a President's right to privacy about his sex life and the confidential details of his marriage. I've never heard of one of them who ever voted for Bush Sr. or Reagan. They said Reagan was a puppet and Bush ran the show. They said oil was the crux of everything. They said the US had degenerated into a police state even before Clinton's time. I've never heard of one of them who didn't desperately wish they had a union so they could negotiate working condition issues, particularly regarding the sprayed chemicals in the area we worked.

Yes, I said "they." I'm not a real blue collar person, and probably won't ever be. And it's not a sweeping generalization, either. It's every last blue collar person I talked to in this situation.

This isn't anything like definitive proof, but it does appear to be a "sampling point" about where the purported "rednecks" supposedly voting Republican stand. The fact is that I couldn't find a single Republican among them.

We've got a large grassroots of voters. Let's give them democrat they can vote for.
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WhoWantsToBeOccupied Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #97
104. I agree with your broad point, but there ARE many ignorant Americans
I agree with you that the center-left is the true "silent majority" and "moral majority." But there are plenty of ignorant morons out there who vote against their economic interests and even the central tenets of their religions because they are duped by appeals to patriotism or narrowly-defined "morality."
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
101. Framing is inherent to language, it is not a gimmick, not RW, not lying
Framing can be used deliberately or not, it can be used effectively or not, it can be used to deceive or to tell the truth.
But we all are framing every time we use language.

The past few decades Republicans have invested millions of dollars to perfect the art of framing the debate in their favor, and they have been very successful - not in the least thanks to the RW-owned mainstream media.

Case in point: how many times have you heard the term "death tax" in the media? And how many times have you heard it being called what it actually is: estate tax?
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. You are absolutely right.
What we need are good policies that are FRAMED appropriately. People who dismiss framing are missing an important part of how we communicate our ideas.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
103. ..framing, yes, but, it is NOT just framing.
Shooting the messenger is not framing. And, they do shoot the messenger.

Retribution is not framing. And, they did leak Plame for revenge, ..and the revenge acts are much more broad than just outing spies.

Having a infrastructure of CIA trained media persons is not framing. And, they have these people planted.

Framing is a PART of the war.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
105. Seeds of a Democratic progressive mantra can be found in Riane Eisler's
"Partnership" theory.

I interpret Lakoff's classification of liberal/progressive views as partnership. He uses "nutrient parent" but I think that "partnership" would be a better word because it evokes equality and can evoke a community working together to solve or manage complex problems. "Partnership" evokes a horizontal power-sharing paradigm that can be versatile and quick to respond to or prevent problems before they get out of hand. It also evokes a community as a whole sharing the burdens and prosperity of life. Commonwealth, symbiotic relationships, and democracy are the key to this paradigm.

"Strict father" refers to our patriarchal and pyramidal paradigm that evokes images of domination and a top-down power structure, such as that employed by monarchies, dictatorships, and oligarchies. The American patriarchal and pyramidal version promotes the myth of the "successfully rugged individualist" but it is actually a system that favors the few at the expense of the many. This paradigm no longer helps us meet today's challenges and it is the source of our national angst.

Feminist theorist Riane Eisler coined the "Partnership Way" as a alternative paradigm to the patriarchal or as Lakoff says, "Strict father" model.

Riane Eisler has been working on developing an alternative paradigm that works for ordinary people since the 1980's. She has developed a plan of action called "THE ALLIANCE FOR A CARING ECONOMY" that would suit Lakoff's "framing" theory and promote a progressive agenda. http://www.partnershipway.org/html/acepage.htm . It would need to be expanded to include how a caring community would handle foreign policy and national security crises, but it's a start on the domestic front.

What is your opinion of Eisler's "Partnership Way" and how it could relate to Lakoff's theory of "framing?"
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
110. The New Meme (Frame) is: Bush Failed to Fire Rove . . . nt
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
112. Folks, you've just witnessed the birth of a new Radical RW frame.
"Framing like know-it-alls." There seems to be a desire here to tarnish framing by making it's proponents look elitist. Please don't take the bait. Read George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant" and make up your mind for yourself. It's less than ten bucks and a real easy read.

Peace.

NGU.


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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. Concerns about application of "framing" aren't RW or "Chomsky bitterness"
Does "framing" doctrine accept input and feedback from the audience
or is it more of a top-down approach?

:patriot:
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