What's to stop BushCo from doing NOTHING about Rove etc.?

[Angry Girl]

I mean, in the past the Democrats have complained and written letters requesting info or investigations etc. and absolutely NOTHING has come from it: nothing about Gannon and his kind, nothing about the fake news reports and plants, and nothing about the 2004 elections....

So what exactly is going to stop this pathogically and criminally insane administration from saying, "Move along, nothing to see here" again?

Can anyone explain to me why that's not going to be the case here, please? Because this country hasn't been a democracy in a long time now, so I do not see any governmental safeguards against these murderous crooks who have taken power.

[stray cat]

1. Fitzgerald being non-partisan and thorough.

[rodeodance]

2. yes, there is spec. procesutor this time.

[Angry Girl]

4. OK, but after Fitzgerald.... then what?

They can simply say something to the effect of "We're too busy right now to deal with this because we're in a war," no? And then it just drags on and on and disappears, like every other scandal they've suppressed....

[wryter2000]

3. An indictment

If Rove stands trial and/or goes to prison, that's something.

OTOH, I think it could end there if we don't win back one house of Congress. Then, we'll have real hearings.

[wli]

5. Diebold; 'nuff said

[Angry Girl]

6. Yes, that's what I mean. They got away with it... There's no....

clout whatsoever behind the opposition to this government!

I don't feel reassured at all.

[wli]

13. staged Night of the Long Knives

[stray cat]

7. No indictment and no special prosecuter and grand jury

[SoCalifer]

8. Interesting point ((audio))

listen to this 8min speech. Pay particular attention to when it reaches the 5:20 mark. You'll hear congresswoman Barbara Jordan say:

"Impeachment criteria, James Madison, from the Virginia ratification convention. If the President be connected in any suspicious manner with any person and there be grounds to believe that he will shelter him -- he may be impeached"

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/mp3clips/politicalspeeches/barbarajordannixonimpeachment.mp3

[Angry Girl]

9. I don't see your point.... As far as I see it, Bush has....

done plenty already to be impeached, if any of the scandals had ever been followed up. For example, what about the huge Medicare con? What about Halliburton no-bid contracts? And the 2004 elections and Sproul? and Diebold? And I know there's TONS more and better exmaples but I get overwhelmed by the stench of it....

Anyway, there he stands, day after day, grinning like an idiot, free as a bird....

[SoCalifer]

12. Hi Angry Girl

I think it brings up the interesting point of: "What did the President know, and when did he know it"

In Bushco's case (pertaining to the Rove question), the question is: What does Bush know about Rove, and when did he know it.

With respect to the above speech: "If the President be connected in any suspicious manner with any person and there be grounds to believe that he will (has) shelter him -- he may be impeached"


I just thought it to be an interesting Deja vu point. :)

[Angry Girl]

14. We can only hope

I have a hard time not thinking that it's too late, that the corporations and dominionists have managed to ensnare this country's judicial and electoral system so thoroughly that any semblance of democracy is just f*cked.

Yes, have a rather pessimistic outlook today.... Serotonin low, quitting sugar (for the 1100th time!) sucks....

Thanks, guys, for trying to cheer me up!

[skip fox]

10. Today W, said the leaker would have to be "convicted" to be fired.

But that's alright. The longer Rove is in the administration, the more obvious to the public will be the administration's values and deception. He made turn the tide.

[Angry Girl]

11. As if the public can do anything, like their vote counts... HA! n/t

[skip fox]

15. But the prosecutor can. Rove probably indicted in masterminding leaks.

Rove will godown in Plames

The more we learn, the more it seems as though Rove orchestrated the leaking. Today we learn in the NYT that he was rabidly out to get Wilson, a bit rabidly even for some WH staffers. This weekend we learned Cooper probably had more than the two named sources (Rove and Libby) he gave to the grand jury. We also know Rove was the primary source for Cooper and Libby one of his confirming sources. We so know there were at least 6 primary contacts (incl. Miller, Cooper, Novak, and Pincus) as reported. We also know that there were at least two different primary sources (Libby for Novak and Rove for Cooper) and maybe more (remember Miller's source did not explicitly release her, but Cooper's gave him an explicit waver). And we know that 3 contacts confirmed their stories with one or more other "high administration officials." Therefore, there were minimally 9 calls/contacts. All this with every thing we know about Rove strongly suggests coordination, collusion, and/or conspiracy.

Anyone in the administration who discovered the Plame-Wilson-Niger connection would have taken the information to the world master of personal assassination: Rove. (I'm guessing the VP's office first learned the information since they would have felt somewhat responsible for Wilson's trip to Niger. I'm also guessing the topic of leaking the Plame information was discussed at an emergency meeting of the White House Iraq Group). With 6 original calls, Rove would have to make sure that no two officials tried to act as a primary source for a single reporter (it would appear too eager) He would make sure the primary contacts pitched the information in an off-hand manner, not as the main subject, to make the contact think the source is trying to do him or her a favor ("Don't go too far out on this Wilson thing, I don't want you burnt."), etc. He would also have insured that no two official had exactly the same pitch. Then he would have to arrange for a number of officials (probably 3-4) would be ready and willing to confirm the story. Some of the confirming sources could be primary sources for other reporters, but JUST DOING THE NUMBERS one realizes that there had to be at least 4 officials involved and that they coordinated the leak (and maybe later their responses to the prosecutor).

Therefore an indictment appears likely for Rove and 3 others. In addition, Rove will either be indicted for or censured for his role in the coordination.

Rove would have more to coordinate! To establish guidelines like: No source should call another's contact, Pitch the information off hand, not as the main subject, Make the contact think the source is trying to do him or her a favor ("Don't go too far out on this Wilson thing, I don't want you burnt."), etc. AND Rove would have had to field a group of officials to support the sources stories.

And then we haven't even begun to ask the question of how Rove got the information. (Doesn't leaking the information to him also constitute a crime?) Did Plame give information to officials as one report suggested? Why did Ashcroft recluse himself? (This rings of possible involvement of Cheney or W.) Did Rove have the proper clearance prior to becoming Deputy Chief of Staff to have seen the material? Or were other federal laws broken to the effect that classified information was used for political purposes? Etc.

I think the great thing we have going for us on this case is Patrick Fitzgerald. By all accounts a fine prosecutor.

[Angry Girl]

16. Sounds good!

And thanks for that really nice summary! I hope they manage to follow it through all the way up. And I sure hope Mr. Fitzgerald has a bullet-proof vest....

[skip fox]

17. My fear is, as Oliphant observed, Republicans are ridiculously spinning

just to get over a bad news cycle on the issue until another issue (supreme court nominee) will take over the spotlight. If this proves accurate, they hope everyone will forget about issue until indictments or Fitzgerald's final report. Then it will be old news.

But if the heat stays on, then a few Republicans with consciences or reading the writing on the wall will desert the cause and then, within a day or so, many others will follow suit.

[Beetwasher]

19. If Indictments Come Down Old News Becomes New News Once Again

Rove is fighting a PR war and it's irrelevant to Fitz and the GJ and arguably, he already lost the PR war anyway. Chimpy is at 42% or (most likely) under now and there's no coming back from that territory with mere spin, regardless. Terror won't help them anymore as evidenced by the negative effect of the London bombing. I'm not sure what they can do at this point, and their go to guy (Rove) is now bogged down in major scandal and pre-occupied and Cheney is MIA (very ill or hiding out).

[skip fox]

24. Yes, they're certainly in a corner.

Maybe we can expect a very hard-liner as a Supreme Court nominee?

Or,

Some major action in the world initiated by the administration.

But, I agree, once indictments or a scathing report are/issued by Fitzgerald, everthing is up-loaded again the the press and public's mind. They just hope it won't be, but the offense is too clear in the average American's mind that he will realize W. double standard and begin looking harder at the entire agenda of the past 5 years.

[Disturbed]

18. If anyone is indicted it will be at least 8 months before a trial

starts. How long would these trials take? In the meantime Rove and Libby will remain employed. The standard for firing has been raised now. Any WH personnel must actually be convicted of a crime in order to be fired. Unethical or immoral acts are not sufficient enough cause. In few weeks other sensational stories will be platered on the Corp Media outlets and this story will be drowned until the GJ issues the judgments. If no indictements, this will fade down the memory hole. If there are indictements then the story resurfaces.

I believe that Bush will hold to his statement and Rove will not resign. Libby might under pressure to do so. He is expendible. Will he remain silent?

[skip fox]

20. Exactly. Leading without Rove is inconceivable to Bush.

Therefore they can post-pone the departure as long as possible.


But I believe this plan will backfire due to the American people who will balk at this case and begin to realize the rapacious political nature of this administration to the point that public opinion is clearly focused and negative. The tide will have turned in part becaause Bush so clearly equivocated with Rove and Rove's offense was reprehensible by almost any standards, spin be damned.

At least that's what I hope.

[The2ndWheel]

21. Will Libby remain silent?

I. Lewis Libby? All these guys, and some women, are joined in a crazy ass blood cult that's been around for decades and will hold them until they die.

[skip fox]

25. The trouble is, for them: one of them gets scared, and they all go down.

These are all hard-assed s.o.b.'s, but the activities of leaking, conspiracy, and probably the coverup will leave hundreds of fingerprints at the scene--many threads for the prosecutor to follow.

They could all stonewall, and some will go down because of inconsistencies, Or one could try to save his own neck and they'll all get it.

(But then I'm the type of person who thinks things generally turn out for the best, so what do I know?)

[usregimechange]

22. when he gets arrested and dragged out of the White House

[The2ndWheel]

23. Nothing

And even on the off, off, off, off chance that someone goes to jail, they'll find a way out, then go on making millions, and snaking in and out of government over the next few decades.

[ClassWarrior]

26. Why do you surrender so much power to your enemies?

NGU.

[Angry Girl]

27. Come again? How so? and what's NGU? n/t

[ClassWarrior]

28. The whole tone of your posts seem to suggest you feel there's no hope...

I will never surrender my hope - especially to criminals. They may try to take everything else from me but they'll never take that away.

And that's why I'll win and they'll lose.

NGU = Never Give Up, my motto since 11/03/04.

NGU.

[Angry Girl]

29. There's always hope but...

how can things change when they control the election? And the press?

There was a coup d'etat, nothing less, by the dominionists and neocons both, and the DNC sat by, politely writing letters on their expensive stationery and arguing among themselves in swank, air-conditioned offices.

If you go to my little page at http://nightweed.com/angrygirl.html you'll see that I have a very cynical view of things, but that this view is not unfounded! As I see it, history repeats itself. And fool me once, shame on you, fool me 3274 times, shame on me!

Am I giving up? I don't know. I'm still here and ranting against the bastards who stole our country but I do think it's too far gone. With the current technology and sophisticated propaganda methods they have at their disposal, there's really no stopping them in the long run.

We have become a police state ruled by corporations. Surveillance cameras watch you at the supermarket while your credit card is tracked. Millions of bits and bytes of data getting collected, filtered through sophisticated pattern recognition algorithms, organized. This info gets sold to companies who want to sell you books and soda pop and war. It's all the same to them.

But please correct me if I'm wrong! I have actually been wrong a few times before! :-)

[ClassWarrior]

30. "How can things change?"

By keeping on keeping on. Even irrationally, despite all evidence. By being certain in the truth, in doing what's right. By NEVER giving up.

Yes, things are bad. Yes, things have the precarious potential to get worse. But if you look at history, true believers have always prevailed, even in much, much worse situations than ours.

Don't rant. Act. Become a warrior. Make fighting back a part of your soul. Read "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu. I'm serious. Assume resistance to evil as a part of your daily routine.

And relize that, while the world will never be perfect, you are engaged in the noble pursuit of making it a little bit more so.

NGU.

[City Lights]

31. To see bushco get away with so much is very frustrating to me too,

Angry Girl. What gives me hope is seeing the lengths to which the wacko wingers are going in defending red rover. They are scared of this investigation.

Howard Fineman was on Countdown yesterday discussing chimpy's new rules for firing someone, and Fineman said chimpy couldn't wait for a conviction before taking action, he'd have to do something if an indictment is handed down. Howard didn't share his reason for believing this, but maybe he thinks media and public pressure would be too great to ignore. :shrug:

I'm also encouraged that the media is finally awaking from its slumber. They have a long way to go to redeem themselves, but at least they are starting to question the chimp.

I will say one thing though. Despite my screen name, if Fitzgerald ends his investigation without indicting anyone, or none of the indictments handed down result in convictions, then it will be difficult for me to remain hopeful.

Hang in there. :hi: