Veterans see Kerry as powerful symbol

[Feanorcurufinwe]

Scorned, spat upon and ignored when they returned home from battle, Vietnam veterans are finding vindication and a voice in Sen. John Kerry three decades later, several veterans said yesterday.

“It’s a renaissance for us,” said Rick Hassett, 53, of Dorchester, Mass., who is in New Hampshire campaigning for the Democratic Presidential hopeful.

Hassett hopped a bus from Boston with about 20 other veterans to mobilize support for the Massachusetts senator among veterans before the Iowa caucuses. When the tired, gritty crew pulled into Des Moines 30 hours later, a crowd met them with cheers and applause.

It was a far cry from the jeers and derision that greeted the Bronze Star-decorated veteran when he came home from Vietnam in early 1972.

“It was wonderful. I was vindicated,” he said, his voice cracking slightly with emotion. “That was the welcome home I never got.”
http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=32163

[A-Schwarzenegger]

1. Watching Kerry on 60 Minutes tonight

it was clear that's where his center is--
Vietnam. He's a guy I have this feeling he's
holding so much shit inside. And I could see
it was what he saw and went through over there.
When he was talking about it I saw and felt his
oneness with what he was saying like I just don't
see or feel so much of the time when he is talking.
I think he's basically a sad man, and I relate to
that. I wish he could show more what's going on
inside him and that I could feel more of a connection
with him, but how quickly he got emotional thinking
of Vietnam, I guess he can't dare go there for fear
of weeping up. But that's where his center is--imo--
so that's why to me he seems locked up. Fucking Vietnam.

[isbister]

2. wish he could show more

A lesser part of that "locked up" impression he may give off could be from being sent away to school as a kid, too.

I've seen a lot of reports over the years that he isn't like that in person and have often heard people say they were perplexed by the aloof label once they sat and talked to him.

[aldian159]

3. An entire generation is defined by that one word:

Vietnam.

I oftentimes, when I was younger and less knowledgable, would sit around with my friends and pretend we were back in history, you know, like at the Constitutional Convention or fighting alongside Joan of Arc. Once I first leaned what a debacle that war was, not only did I stop playing, but I thanked all my lucky stars I wasn't born in such a time period.

To all who served or were affected, thanks. Thanks a lot. It's a real shame you didn't get your ticker-tape parade through Times Square, but thanks for going anyway.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

4. Amen.

[MaineDem]

5. Absolutely!

Those who weren't there for it really have no idea how much of an impact it made on, like you said, an entire generation. My personal views changed during that time from "it must be right; the President is for it" to "holy crap, what are we doing there". I had friends die, others become disabled, and all never be the same again. It shaped my political thought, for sure!

My husband was in the military during that time though he never served in Vietnam. He can't even watch a television program about that "war".

My World War II Navy veteran Mother joined Veterans for Kerry this weekend. That feisty 84 year old retired nurse has become politically active in her old age (she'll kill me if she finds out I called her old.)

Thank you to all Vets. We owe you so much!

[blm]

6. Wow...you all have made this a stirring thread to read.

Thank you.

[dreissig]

8. Kerry's Three Month Tour

Kerry's tour of duty was much shorter than the standard one-year tour. A healthy, able-bodied Kerry left Vietnam only three months after he arrived. It's possible that Kerry used his Skull and Crossbones connections to land a soft job as an admiral's aide in Brooklyn.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

9. Do you know what he saw or experienced there?

[dreissig]

12. Kerry's Experiences

Actually I don't know Kerry's experiences and I don't trust what I've heard. He seems to have a problem with the truth, as seen in the IWR issue and the medals issue. This leads me to suspect that Kerry's Silver Star was not fully earned. I certainly do not take it at face value, because the only witness to the incident was Kerry himself.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

13. Man, the hatred is blinding...

Why reduce two tours to 3 months?
Why not just claim he was never there
at all?

[dreissig]

15. Facts are Important

Kerry's first "tour" in Vietnam was aboard a blue-water ship so far off the coast that he might just as well have been in the Mediterranean.

The well-connected John Kerry spent only three months in country in his second tour. He was able-bodied and healthy when he boarded the plane taking him out of danger. To ensure that his crew didn't rat him out later on, he paid them off with transfers to easy jobs. How many junior officers have the clout it takes to do that?

[blm]

16. Do you have a link for that smear

Kerry poaid them off from a reputable source?

[dreissig]

20. Kerry's Crew

Are you challenging the fact that Kerry got his crew transferred to safe assignments? It's on the record, Kerry has acknowledged it, and he has defended it. If you really insist, I can dig out the link.

You're better off challenging my interpretation of this fact. I call it a payoff to keep these guys feeling good about John Kerry. But here's another question: Kerry was a lieutenant. Where'd he get clout like that?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. Maybe Bronze and Silver Stars bring clout

perhaps that helps.

[dreissig]

28. Military Clout

Are you suggesting that Kerry's medals gave him extra pull with the personnel bureau? That's implausible.

There's nothing unusual about military favoritism. It's more plausible that John Kerry pulled strings to get his crew transferred. Despite being a lowly lieutenant, John Kerry had lots of connections inside the Pentagon.

If John Kerry is not the war hero he claims to be, Democrats ought to find this out now. Questions about his military record ought to be answered, not suppressed.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

42. You have been repeatedly told the facts, 3 Purple Hearts was a ticket home

in Vietnam.


Why you continue to repeat this utterly baseless charge is incomprehensible to me.

[MaineDem]

10. Check your facts

Kerry served two tours in Vietnam.

[dreissig]

11. Kerry's Tours

Kerry's first tour in Vietnam was on a blue-water ship. He was so far off the coast he might as well have been in the Gulf of Mexico. It's mendacious to call this a tour of duty in Vietnam, but that's Kerry for you.

Kerry's second tour seems to have been cut short with the help of Kerry's high-ranking connections in the Pentagon. Healthy and able-bodied, John Kerry left Vietnam after only three months.

Those are the facts.

[MaineDem]

14. All the Navy vets who served on those ships

thank you for minimizing their service.

Sheesh!

[dreissig]

18. Navy Vets

There's nothing dishonorable about easy duty. If that was your experience in the military, more power to you!

However, there is something dishonorable about claiming to have served two tours in Vietnam when in fact you've done nothing of the sort. When you puff up your military record so that it sounds a lot grander than it actually was, it suggests you have a problem with the truth.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

30. You are calling Kerry's Vietnam service dishonorable?

No matter how many lies are repeated about Kerry's Vietnam service, America know the truth.

[dreissig]

39. Honorable But Brief

Kerry's brief tour in Vietnam was honorable, but there are questions whether he really is the hero his campaign staff says he is. For example, Kerry was awarded a Silver Star for beaching his boat and chasing a sniper on foot. Under ordinary circumstances, the Navy does not encourage officers to leave their crew to fend for themselves. The award is also questionable because critical details of the incident were reported by Kerry himself without independent corroboration.

It sounds as though Kerry was a Golden Boy and everybody knew it, especially his commanding officers. If Kerry wanted it, he got it! The medals, the early out, the anomalous reassignments of his crew. Kerry's supposedly brilliant record may reflect only military favoritism.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

41. Distorting the truth is what is dishonorable.

And repeating that distortion, ad nauseum, is well, nauseating.

:puke:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. Even if true, that is 3 months more than Bush

and nearly everyone else running.

[dreissig]

19. A Valid Point

It's certainly a valid point that John Kerry spent three months in Vietnam and George Bush did not. However, Kerry's actual Vietnam experience isn't quite as compelling as he pretends it is.

There's something unconvincing about Kerry's war stories. How'd he get out after three months without getting the Navy so pissed off they'd send him to Greenland? Instead they rewarded him with a plum job as an admiral's aide in Brooklyn. It doesn't add up.

[dreissig]

7. Vietnam Veterans Were Not Spat On

The reports of Vietnam veterans being spat upon did not appear before 1980, long after the war was over. Sociologist Jerry Lembcke, himself a Vietnam veteran, researched this issue exhaustively, and believes this is an urban legend.

. . . Lembcke is a sociologist at Holy Cross College, a Vietnam veteran who was an active member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. His readable and well-documented book demolishes the lie that the antiwar movement was anti-soldier and that the vets were spat upon.

Of course it is hard to disprove a myth and hard to prove that something never happened. Still Lembcke has extensive evidence showing that “the spitting image” is an illusion created by the Nixon-Agnew administration and the mass media (especially Hollywood movies). From the beginning, the antiwar movement worked closely with veterans. Many leading antiwar activists were veterans of earlier wars. Many antiwar groups, such as the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), worked to support GIs and defend GI political rights.

By 1968, a large number of Vietnam vets were key activists in the movement. Polls conducted at the time showed that most combat troops viewed the antiwar movement as their only real supporter. Other polls conducted at the time showed that over 94% of returning troops said they were greeted positively by people their own age who had not served in the military. Even more telling, there is no documentary evidence (not one letter, photo, news clip, press report, or police report) of an antiwar protester spitting on a returning vet. There are, however, a number of photos and stories showing protesting vets being spat upon, sworn at, and pelted with eggs, by pro-war members of the VFW or American Legion. The stories of spat-upon veterans started appearing in the late 1970s, and all such stories have proven either demonstrably false or nearly impossible to prove . . .

http://www.laborstandard.org/Vol1No3/SpittingImage.htm

[Feanorcurufinwe]

22. Your attempt to diminish the emotions felt by the vets in this story

is incomprehensible to me.

[dreissig]

33. Golden Boy

Kerry was in country only three months, then got transferred to a plum job as an admiral's aide in Brooklyn. That's undisputed.

Sounds like John Kerry was a Golden Boy, although reasonable people may disagree. Kerry's connections would explain some of the anomalies of his record. If local commanders knew he was a VIP, they'd know that making him uncomfortable would be hazardous to their careers. That might be why his questionable Silver Star went through.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

45. You have repeatedly been told the facts, 3 Purple Hearts was a ticket home

from Vietnam, for everyone, not just for Kerry.


And everytime you repeat your baseless, false, and meanspirited smear against Kerry, I will counter with the facts.

[kstewart33]

23. I have a dear friend who served as a Captain in Vietnam

He was spat on in a bar a couple of years after he came home. An antiwar activist got carried away.

Does he count?

[dreissig]

29. A Fight in a Bar?

Your friend got into a fight into a bar? If that's your survey sample, I don't think it counts.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. However much disrespect someone feels towards Vietnam vets,

this is not the appropriate place to show it.

In fact, there is no appropriate place.

[adadem]

31. I'm sorry to say

shame on you for dissing our VietNam vets. I'll bet you were a kid or maybe not even born then. I lived through it and I remember quite clearly how our VietNam vets were treated...it was not as veterans should be treated.

[dreissig]

34. Kerry's Questionable Record

The issue isn't about Vietnam veterans, it's about the nature of Kerry's service in Vietnam. He served there only three months, compared with the usual tour of a full year. Exploiting a loophole to get an early out is usually punished, but in Kerry's case, the Navy actually rewarded him with a plum assignment. What's up with that? What explains the Navy's utterly implausible behavior here?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

44. You have been repeatedly told the facts, 3 Purple Hearts was a ticket home

from Vietnam. For everyone, not just for Kerry.

I don't understand your behavior.

[Justice]

24. But unfortunate that Kerry Would Smear Fellow Veteran

Wesley Clark.

Hmm.

What do these veterans think about that?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

25. That is a false charge.

What is this so-called smear?

[TopesJunkie]

36. It's a very accurate charge --

Haven't you been paying attention?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

46. It is false. If you claim it is accurate, please back your claim up

with some information.

What is the supposed smear you are referring to?

[blm]

26. He didn't.

Typical campaign jousting isn't smearing. Clark and Kerry have both done some of it and they aren't crying about it.

Only media and some sensitive supporters are doing that.

[bigtree]

27. Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement

Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations (excerpts)
April 23, 1971

http://pages.xtn.net/~wingman/docs/kerryst.htm (entire statement)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers (Tom Paine) now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out....


We watched the United States falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings." We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater. We watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the hill for reoccupation by the North Vietnamese. We watched pride allow the most unimportant battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point, and so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 81s and Fire Base 6s, and so many others.


Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese.


We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?....We are here in Washington to say that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country - the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions such as the use of weapons; the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search and destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say. It is part and parcel of everything.


An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of Alcatraz put it to me very succinctly. He told me how as a boy on an Indian reservation he had watched television and he used to cheer the cowboys when they came in and shot the Indians, and then suddenly one day he stopped in Vietnam and he said, "my God, I am doing to these people the very same thing that was done to my people," and he stopped. And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this thing has to end.


(This text is made available by the Sixties Project, sponsored by Viet Nam Generation Inc. and the Institute of Advanced Technology in the Humanities at the University of Virginia at Charlottesville. The Sixties Project is a collective of humanities scholars working together on the Internet to use electronic resources to provide routes of collaboration and make available primary and secondary sources for researchers, students, teachers, writers and librarians interested in the 1960s.)

[Poseidon]

32. I'm a veteran.

I'm a veteran, and I am very impressed with all of our candidates. I definitely respect anyone who has shed blood, as I have, and Kerry is a very respectable man.

[bigtree]

38. Welcome to DU Poseidon!

:hippie:

[TopesJunkie]

35. That would be "some veterans" --

Even then, just wait until they take a closer look.

[Poseidon]

37. Oh

What years did you serve?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

40. They are Kerry's GOTV force

and I mean FORCE

[tinanator]

47. thats for sure

http://www.counterpunch.org/willson1015.html