Stop using NeoCon and right wing when describing the opposition

[Ksec]

They are Conservatives. They are why things are so messed up in this world. Using the other word dilutes your message and takes the heat away from the real problem, Conservatives.

When you talk about the war use Conservatives.

When you talk about wages falling, crappy jobs use Conservative.

When you describe Bush and his corruption use Conservative only.

When you talk about how the US is now hated round the world use Conservative.

Its what theyve done to the word Liberal and we can only win if we play by the same rules. The Conservatives are the real problem.

[Jara sang]

1. Neoconservative should only being used when describing this admins.

foreign policy objectives. I have heard too many use that word incorrectly on this board.

[Ksec]

2. No

Thats my point. When we use NeoCon then we dilute who they are. We have three seperate groups when we use Neocon or right wing and Conservative. Its Conservatives. When you say this admin is neocon then conservatives get a free ride because it was the NeoCons who done it. Do ya see what Im saying here?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

34. EXACTLY!!!

[Pallas180]

59. It is a point, but will be difficult -

[clark4me]

67. Difficult but worth it

It is easy to be a Conservative and distance yourself from Bush saying that "Bush is not a true Conservative like I am, therefore I am not part of any blame of what is happening because of this administration" If we allow the "Conservatives to idley sit by and watch all of this without holding them to the fire for their "support" of their administration, we will lose big time. We must make the Conservatives all choose who they really are. If they support Bush they are Conservative/Neo Con, if they do not support Bush then they must stand up and say so now and not hide behind words. The more we call Bush Conservative the more we will, hold to the fire, the conservatives quietly standing by and silently distancing themself from him.

[NAO]

3. Hoover, traditional conservative, utterly ruined the economy

he was helped out by two previous traditional conservative administrations (Harding and Coolidge).

There were no "neo-cons" in the 1920s. What we did have then was traditional conservatives - pro-business, free market, anti-regulation conservatives that allowed corruption and greed to run rampant until - like a plague of locusts - they destroyed the very base they were exploiting. The result was The Great Depression. The answer was The New Deal.

It's that simple.

[RoyGBiv]

8. Not exactly ...

Hoover failed to fix it, in part due to a too strong adherence to his strict constructionalist, i.e. conservative, ideology. Harding and Coolidge, with some help from Wilson, ruined the economy.

[kestrel91316]

4. Conservatives put the neocons in power ................

they need to shoulder the blame.

[Ksec]

5. Yes they did

I have a terrible time expressing myself in writing as you can see.

But seriously, when we use all these titles then we dilute our message. Neocons are the bad ones, conservatives are the good ones and right wingers are another group in the middle. We have to narrow them down to one group to make our message effective. Conservative.

Its what they did to the word Liberal. Now when someone says Liberal its like the people say "oh those people who messed up everything."

Once you put them in the same boat then you start attaching Conservatives to Republicans. Make them one and the same.

[Pirate Smile]

42. Exactly. They are all Conservatives. Bush labels himself a Conservative

and so do all of the rest of the Republicans.

Conservatives are neocons but we need to JUST CALL THEM ALL CONSERVATIVES.

Make "Conservative" a dirty word.

Conservative means you support Wars based on lies, fiscal irresponsibility, social regressive policies, etc.

[mmonk]

6. No, not conservatives

These folks are much more radical than that. Conservative doesn't work because it doesn't really denote change and believe me, these people are really changing America.

[Pirate Smile]

46. This is about framing and labeling. Republicans don't differentiate

between conservative Democrats, "new" Democrats and liberals.

They have demonized the word liberal and now call all Democrats "liberals" in an effort to demonize Democrats.

This is about doing the same thing back to them.

The word "Conservative" is still viewed positively by most people while "liberal" has been successfully smeared.

We need to do the same thing back to "Conservatives".

[RoyGBiv]

7. This is not correct ...

The term "neoconservative" exists for a reason, and it is not to take attention away from conservatives in general. Neoconservatives have a distinct ideology that is anything but "conservative." It is radical, activist, and fringe. Traditional conservatism, for all its faults, was and is anything but radical or activist. The word itself does have meaning and should be used when that meaning applies. The confusion arises in part due to the fact that neoconservatives use the same political rhetoric as traditional conservatives.

Eisenhower was a conservative and was also the man who popularized the phrase "military industrial complex" by warning against it. Modern neoconservatives embrace this military industrial complex to the extent it is a pillar of their power.

The neoconservatives do not want to "maintain the status quo" or urge the social or political climate to adhere to so called traditional norms. Their vision is of a society entirely unlike anything this nation has ever experienced in its existence and for that reason alone cannot be called traditional conservatives.

Do traditional conservatives shoulder blame for their rise to power? Certainly they do, if merely for their cowardice, but this does not remove the line of distinction between the two groups.

[blondeatlast]

26. Excellent analysis. I hesitate to equate NeoCon with true conservatism.

True conservatism is misguided, but not inherently dangerous.

NeoCon is radical, purely and simply.

[spooky3]

27. How about "radical conservatives"? That might accomplish the

objective the OP identifies. It's still a misnomer because these people are not conservative, but "radical" might make the term an easily remembered message for the average voter.

[blondeatlast]

30. "Radical Right" is my term of choice. True conservatives

shy away from the identification with the right anyway.

[Czolgosz]

51. I agree with RoyGBiv and blondeatlast. "Conservative" is a word that has

meaning. Bush Inc. isn't conservative, and I won't call them conservative. I call them the extreme right wing, radical right, or the Christian right. They love when you call them conservative -- it's like calling them "legitimate." Calling Bush inc. conservative promotes the image they use to disguise the fact that their agenda seeks to use radical pro-"reform" activism as a means to dismantle society's infrastructure (the very opposite of conservatism).

[RoyGBiv]

62. Well said ...

I wish I'd said it that way. Referring to this pack of wolves as "conservatives" legitimizes what they are all about and hides the fact they are out to change the world. Traditional conservatives really don't want to change anything; they resist change for the most part.

[cosmik debris]

32. Robert Reich uses rad-con to discuss the right wing

in his book about why liberals will win. I forgot the title, but it is a great book.

[FredStembottom]

61. My dream candidate for Pres.

Robert Reich. I am convinced after listening to his regular spots on the Sound Money show on NPR that he would be the greatest pres. since FDR. I remember him debunking the "Social Security Crisis" and pointing out how LITTLE it would take to make it solvent for another 100 years. And this was, perhaps, 6 years ago!

Practical, non-idealogical, FANTASTIC speaker, can make anyone understand anything.
He would simply save our asses - and in about a month after taking office.

But I am swooning...........

:blush:

[cosmik debris]

63. I read his book twice.

It was worth it.

[Pirate Smile]

50. The point is to use the word they define themselves as AGAINST them.

Let the Republicans fight amongst themselves about the "real" definition of Conservative.

This is a battle they should be having within their own party but one side is winning that battle - the Bush Republicans.

If the old style Conservatives want to fight the new BushCo "Conservatives" for the true meaning of their name, let them do it BUT why they hell are we doing it for them.

[RoyGBiv]

57. If that's the point ...

It's not a good one.

Republicans in general survived some very dark days in its own party's history by highlighting the splits in the Democratic party. They were so successful in this that to this day we fight the battles ourselves, to their advantage.

The point, in my view, is that differences exist between traditional conservatives and neoconservatives, and since their party discipline is so well refined that they will not discuss this openly, it is part of our duty to force them to do so.

There's another side of the coin here, though, that does require our caution. We should not lump all Republicans with the neoconservative label. That dillutes its impact and makes the strategy of forcing dissent less effective.

[Lecky]

9. Neocon is already considered a negative term by many

I hear lots of neocon chickenhawks whining about it on this other board I frequent. Most repukes don't even want to admit that they are neocons.

[Czolgosz]

52. Agreed

[orleans]

10. semantics. depends on what "is" is.

they're all in the same big boat--they all need to go down together.

[skids]

11. Umm, I, my friend, am in many respects a conservative

And I resent you laying the compliment on these dillweeds.

Conservative just means you believe that not all systems are agile enough to accomodate rapid change. To suggest that all conservativism is undesirable is plain old silly (certainly, conservativism in the face of evidence to the contrary is equally silly.)

Bend anything too quickly, and it will break. Conservatives say "well then bend it very, very slowly, if at all." Liberals say "it's pretty flexible, go ahead and give it a good tug." Depending on what is being bent, either may be correct.

These right wing people in Washington who propose radical changes to policy and then tell you they are conservative are lying to you.

[RC]

16. I think you have a pretty good take on things.

Good explanation on Conservative and Liberal and the real problem. :toast:

[Burried News]

43. So do you - although "reactionary" seems a reasonable

alternative.

[Czolgosz]

55. In political science terms "reactionary" is correct yet no one seems to

use it. Go figure.

[lostnfound]

53. Labelling Bush as conservative ought to make conservatives angry..

and that's a good thing. Let them get angry -- who will they get angry at? On the surface, at us, for saying it; but deep down, perhaps they will get angry at the Bushies for ruining their good name.

[Czolgosz]

54. Me too. I'm conservative in my judicial philosophy which means I want

a justice who will follow precedent and who will generally defer to Congress. Many of these asshole Republican judges only defer to Congress when it suits their agenda and are forever ignoring '60s era precedents that run afoul of their ideology. That's Supreme Court nominee John Roberts in a nutshell. I cringe every time I hear someone (especially someone here) call Roberts conservative. He far right but he's no conservative (e.g., a true conservative judge would not lust in his heart for the authority to overrule Roe v. Wade -- a precedent that has conferred a recognized right for several decades now -- nor interpret the commerce clause so peculiarly narrow as to make the Endangered Species Act unenforceable).

[TankLV]

12. I embrace any and all negative terms to describe repukes.

[kodi]

13. these people, Busheviks, are not conservatives.

They may be many things, but conservative they are not.

They are right wing radicals.

They seem to be without principles, calling what guides them a conservative philosophy seems to be giving them far more distinction than they deserve. Rather their thought seems to be nothing more than crumbs and shards raked together from various sources-- Hobbes, Locke, Smith (invisible hand leading towards utopia), Marx (economic determinism), Freud (where they get their constant urge to play on middle class fear) and numerous others -- and shaped together into a formless mass which they mold to the desired situation. There is no philosophical system on the right, rather only cynical opportunism mascarading as coherent thought, a fig leaf of virtue to hide their whoring ways.

I have no respect for them because they have no sense of shame. They are more akin to the Bolsheviks of Russia than to anything American (that is the reason that "Busheviks" appeals to me so much). For them everything comes down to attaining and retaining power and cashing in, nothing more...and what is conservative about that?

[loudsue]

14. No. Just call them REPUBLICANS...and it will send the message.

People need to associate the word "republican" with all the evil and nastiness that is going on. I hope that, by the end of this term, nobody in their right mind would even consider voting republican again.... EVER.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Jane Austin]

23. Hey, I like that! Just call them Republicans. :)

n/t

[Zen Democrat]

15. I have a very Libran position here ...

I agree that the current definition of conservatism was ushered in with the RW takeover of the party apparatus in 1964. This begat Nixon who was a national disgrace. When Jimmy Carter restored a moral compass to the presidency, an aging movie actor rode in to "save the day" and the Viva Ole Conservatives marched through Washington. They advanced so much power during the Reagan/Bush days that they had lots of "media capital" to spend during the Clinton years. So they spent it by flipping dead fish to their trained seals in the media for the entirety of the Clinton presidency for the sole purpose of humiliating and discrediting him.

These are the conservatives all right. The flag, Sunday School, policies made by and for the upper class. They aren't the conservatives of the 1950's, but they are the conservatives of the last 40 years.

As for the new converts ... aren't you aware that the entire purpose of Rush Limbaugh and those of his ilk are to make working class people believe that they owe it all to the rich. "Oh my, where oh where would we be without the RICH and POWERFUL to trickle down on us."

I think the "neo" folks are ones that supposedly once were liberal, but now they are raging lunatic empire builders.

They call themselves conservatives. I'm happy to oblige.

[sandnsea]

17. We worked long and hard to differentiate Neocon

Because there IS a different group of Conservative in DC right now.

I don't tend to have much use for conservative politics, even old school conservatives. But this crowd really is different. Pat Buchanan is the kind of conservative I usually can't stand and even he doesn't even like these neocons.

[yurbud]

44. Bush cons are majority in GOP & in control, so call them REPUBLICANS

The fact is, the Bush branch is in the driver's seat, and it's inaccurate to speak as if some other kind is dominant and these guys are just an aberration.

If you call Bushies conservatives or even just republicans, you force GOP dissenters to distance themselves.


Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[flaminbats]

18. conservatives hate liberty..

To a conservative, liberty is only the sinful rejection of monarchy..or God's chosen ruler. Conservatives believe a war on terror is Christian. Conservatives view morality not as a positive way of living, but as more commands for every subject to obey. Conservatives equate tax-cuts for the rich as the protection of private property, but the seizure of private property for local shopping malls as another form of decentralized government. Conservatives equate the use of stem cells for curing disease as murder, but consider waging wars in distant nations to be patriotic and American. Conservatives believe that burning a faded American flag should be illegal, but that throwing it in the trash is patriotic. Conservatives considered Carter to be the representation of stagflation, but view Bush as the President of small government and low inflation. Conservatives embrace supply side economics and government preached religion, they reject a government controlled by citizen demands and religious values spread by example.

[meow2u3]

29. Extreme conservatives go a step further

Conservatives believe a war on terror is Christian.

Some conservatives think terror itself is Christian, just as long as they're the ones dishing out the terror.

[flaminbats]

37. War is hell..

"I know I had no hand in making this war,
and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace"..William T. Sherman

too bad Republicans don't have that attitude today!

[wli]

19. my take on this subject

Politics in the US is so far to the right the US version of "liberal" would be considered "reactionary" in Europe. The melange of neocons, theocons, and corporate fascists that have taken over the Rethuglican party and the country by storm are nowhere near and nothing like "conservative."

One might call them "radical" in the sense that they are trying to change the fundamental structure of government and society, but in many ways, particularly civil liberties and economic justice, they are openly trying to turn back the clock to the Dark Ages or perhaps prehistory. Hence they're reactionaries of unfathomable extremism, not "conservative" at all. Indeed, with Ledeen et al openly endorsing fascism (c.f. Ledeen, "Universal Fascism"), we might as well just call it fascism, because it is fascism, and even goes as far as quietly admitting the fact in the open.

[joeprogressive]

20. I respectfully disagree

This may be very unpopular to some, but we may have to admit that the word liberal has been tarnished beyond repair. Unfairly, yes but connotations are very powerful. For some reason it has come to symbolize the radical wing of the democratic party just as neocon has for the right wing. The word the other side hates to hear is progressive. There is no way to make that negative because the opposite is regressive, which is what the conservatives/neocons are.

I have had more luck getting republicans to admit that this administration is wrong on many levels by framing the debate with the words progressives, neocons, and republicans. Many are conservative but admit they like to associate themselves with many progressive ideas. They don't believe this administration represents them. There was an article yesterday about how Michael Savage has been hammering home this idea that Bush, Limbaugh, Rove etc. represent this out of control faction of the republican party known as neocons. We have to continue to pound this point home. People hold on to their political party like they do their religion. I'm telling you there are millions of republicans out there that are embarrassed by this president but unwilling to say they are no longer republicans. If we run progressive candidates that don't draw the battle lines b/w repub and dem but frame the debate with their stances on each of the issues, someone like Wes Clark will spur a mass exodus from the other side.

The republicans have a serious insecurity problem. They are so into labels. They feel that if people in their church know they are democrats they will be labeled outcasts. Let them be progressive republicans that essentially agree with progressive dems on 90% of the issues. Continue to spread the word that neocons are ruining our country and progressive dems will start to win elections.

[truthisfreedom]

21. interesting.

[Disturbed]

22. I call the Bush Regime and it's supporters Assholes.

Also, I deem the Bush Regime as Corporatists. Calling them Fascists isn't helpful because most people associate Fascism with Hitler which conjurs up the Holocaust, even though Fascism was more predominant with Mussolini.

There are actually at least three factions of the Republican Party:

The Neocons

Fundies

Paleo Conservatives

[mmonk]

24. I know you hate what they've done with the word

Liberal, but all one has to do is take the word back. If you call yourself liberal when talking in general to the public, they really can't use it against you by redefining the meaning. It's the DLC that has run from the word and seems ashamed.

By the way, you can say conservatives are at fault. But it just seems too creampuff when describing the movement we are facing because of it's extremeness.

[PeeWeeMadman]

25. Quasi libertarian?

I would rather claim that they are not conservatives, but "quasi libertarians". What they call conservatism has little in common with the european brands of conservatism. American conservatism is basically libertarianism for libertarians that does not like gays but like war.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

31. Pretty insulting to women, IMHO. That word is disgusting. nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

45. So it fits well, then and my point is made

YMMV

[cosmik debris]

33. I don't want to break ranks,

But I will continue to use the term "right wing extremists" and wing nuts.

[ihaveaquestion]

35. They are NOT Conservatives.

My Uncle is a Conservative and so is my Father-in-Law. Both good solid guys who think progressives are either hopeless idealists or dope-smoking freaks. They don't try to shove their wacky beliefs down my throat, though. They are not like the neo-con / radical right fucks who alienate all of their liberal family members by spitting "liberal" in their face like it was a curse. I'm better than that.

[leesa]

36. I think I prefer Robber Barons.

I re-read the chapter in Howard Zinn's 'People's History of the United States' about the Robber Barons of the late 1800's. Just exactly the same people and methods, down to the fact that they were all chicken-hawks during the civil war as well...Mellon, Rockefeller, Armour, etc. These are the same folks destroying our country once again. They almost claimed their glory by causing the Great Depression and it was almost ALL theirs, but that damned Democrat intervened...

[liberaliraqvet26]

48. Now we have Mellon's grandson....

following his legacy

[Ksec]

38. I understand what you folks are saying

I know these people are extremists and not true conservatives, but by making three seperate groups , you water down your message and give conservatives a free ride from any blame.

You must know that Conservatives allowed this to happen and almost always side with the whackos.

They are Conservatives. Not neocons or any other name.

[Pirate Smile]

49. Exactly. The Conservatives have let BushCo take over their party

and have not only gone along with it, they have actively promoted and defended it.

[calimary]

39. It's VITALLY important that we do this!!! VITALLY AND CRITICALLY!!!

POISON THE WELL. Make it damned-near sickening to even consider voting republi-CON again.

It is VITALLY important to tie all bad things and developments and backwards-sliding and perverting the Constitution and the concepts of freedom and liberty and other things that our soldiers get to die for - to the republi-CONS and conservatives in general.

Usually, when the opportunity comes up and complaints are made about our sad economy, all the jobs being "outsourced" overseas, our increasingly lousy reputation around the world, global warming, increased violence and terrorism, the war that's failing and costing more and More and MORE lives (and its "commander-in-chief" who can't even be bothered to attend ANY of these fallen troops' funerals, the corruption that literally hemmorhages out of this White House, the lies, scheming, double-dealing, character assassination, treason, our rights being chipped away, women's bodies being snatched from them if Roe v Wade is overturned, ALL OF IT, I usually add - "well, that's what you get when you vote republi-CON."

The idea is to pervert the whole concept of Republican and conservative politics and politicians. Associate them exclusively with bad things. Use negative words when describing them - like anti-family, anti-American, unAmerican, unpatriotic, slick, tricky, underhanded, cheap, stingey, greedy, anti-children, busy-bodies, butt-inski's, pseudo-Christians, domestic terrorists, pirates, war profiteers, sneaks, cheats, thieves, war mongers, war criminals, traitors, etc.

This must be repeated RELENTLESSLY until the connection starts to be made subconsciously and subliminally, AND automatically. It's associative memory - where you remember something because you find something familiar to associate it with. Like, the way I always remember the term "travertine marble" is by remembering Mary Travers. That technique never fails. VERY effective. A MUST in this case. We want people associating the concept of Republicans and conservatives with bad things, bad feelings, bad ideas, bad results. And for those who are uncomfortable playing manipulation games with people's minds, it's not. All we're doing is telling the truth.

And remember this, too (which I've posted before - just being repetitive, you see): for those who think "oh my-my, I can't do that. It only lowers us to their level, we can't go there, it makes us just like them" - guess how I reply? "Well, I've got news for you. I DO want to be just like them. Because - you know what they are? They're WINNERS. They do that shit and they WIN. And I'm sick of losing!!!!! No more Mr. (or Ms.) Nice Guy! You do it that way and all you get is trampled on. All you get is more time spent in the loser's column. Since they've rewritten the rules so you only win if you fight dirty, then so be it. I'm in. There'll be plenty of time to rewrite the rules when WE own it all again. But we have to win, first.

I refuse to go to a gunfight armed with a feather duster.

[calimary]

40. Oh yes, and one more thing (actually two):

You MUST keep this in mind - MUST-MUST-MUST:

Polls continually show that people SAY they don't like dirty campaigning. They can SAY that all they want, and they do. But the polls also show that they fall for it election cycle after election cycle after election cycle. Dirty campaigning WORKS. Dirty campaigns WIN. Sleaze and mudslinging WIN. It makes an impression. People BELIEVE the lies. Look what was done to John McCain - he of the impeccable "everybody likes and respects him" reputation. He was starting to beat bush all over the place, so they made sure to stop him in South Carolina by that HORRID smear campaign that hit not only him but his wife, his marriage, and worst of all, their little adopted girl who was, I believe, from Bangladesh and thus had darker skin. They called her an out-of-wedlock black child. And people BOUGHT it.

WHY SHOULD WE NOT DO THIS? Besides, don't these people deserve a taste of their own medicine? Taste, hell. How about a few years of force-feeding? Into EITHER end, I'd say. How about a few kerosene enemas? Via forced feeding tubes, even, like what they wanted to do to Terri Schiavo.

One other thing: I've tried to make it a habit for myself NEVER to use the word "right" when referring to the so-called "religious ..." or the "... wing." It's "religious WRONG" and "WRONG wing." The word "right" has been SO PERVERTED by these people that I'd say we don't even bother with it anymore - at least for awhile. NEVER give them even that much. ALWAYS refer to anything politically "right" as WRONG. Whenever possible, substitute the word WRONG for the word right.

More mind-games and mind-manipulations, certainly. But these things WILL happen. If we don't use these weapons against the bad guys, they'll keep happening TO us. Guaranteed. And whatever they say about us, say it straight back at/about them. Like, for example, saying Joseph Wilson is the traitor and the liar. It's because THEY THEMSELVES are the traitors and liars. They just want somebody else to get the blame for it. They point a finger all the time, not realizing (and we should point this out at EVERY opportunity) that when they do so, all their other fingers are pointing back at themselves.

[onebox30]

41. Conservation of WHAT?

Spend and repent, spend and attack, spend and excuse, spend and lie. Calling them "conservative" would imply that they have an inherent tendency to conserve, which is light years from the truth.

[liberaliraqvet26]

47. true conservatives would not have...

ran up this deficit and added the office of faith based initatives to our government

[Ksec]

56. Understood but

You arent getting the jist of this post . When you make two or three seperate factions of Conservatives you make it look like Conservatives are victims of the bad neocons and should not be put in the same boat. Then people think Conservatives are innocent and should still be in power/

They are one and the same. Conservatives allowed this to happen and did it to win at their own expense. They dont bloviate from the talking points. They are the same. This way we dont have three different factions to go after, we have a one. Cons. Do ya see what Im saying here.

[noamnety]

58. one more nomination

I've avoided calling them conservatives because they aren't conserving anything ... but yes, I see what you mean. These are the people the conservatives have chosen to support - they need to own the mess they made. They ARE part of it.

Conservatives it is.

[Pallas180]

60. Personally I like Calimary's

republi-CONS

[Pallas180]

64. kick it

[RC]

65. The correct term is criminals or war criminals.

[Pirate Smile]

66. kick