Is anyone else getting scared we'll be dissappointed again??

[Laura PourMeADrink]

In recent days, hearing that all Fitzgerald probably has is potential perjury or o.o.j. I am getting very scared. I am getting scared that they will get away with this travesty. I mean it will come down to Russert's and Cooper's word against Rove's and Libby's, am I right? Is this enough to indict?

This Plame/Wilson smear campaign is just one little piece that leads to the phony invention of a Saddam/Niger connection and ultimately to the Invasion and Rape of Iraq.

When can we find justice for all of this? They are never going to undertake Part 2 of the senate investigation on how the administration used the faulty intelligence, are they? How else could this all be uncovered and adjudicated?

[Reynardine]

1. I'm so used to disappointment

That it doesn't scare me anymore. What scares me is that I'm used to it.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. Welcome to DU Reynardine..... I hope you won't be used to

it in a few months.... ciao.

[I Have A Dream]

3. Hi, Reynardine. Welcome!

I know what you mean -- I feel as though I'm almost shutting down because I'm tired of fighting. However, as I'm sure that you're aware, the fight's too important, so I just have to get my second wind and jump back in again. I'm running on empty right now.

[yurbud]

4. not if there's a paper trail. Have you seen story on memo going to AF 1?

Apparently, Bush got a memo that clearly marked Plame's cover as secret right before Rove and Libby started making the calls.


Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[Laura PourMeADrink]

14. Right, but didn't he (Fitz) have that long ago. He said, not too

long ago that without Cooper and Miller he was through. I don't think Cooper shed any light on the memo that went on AF1. So he made it sound like there was nothing he could indict for.

Maybe I am just preparing myself for a loss.

[yurbud]

15. always best to be prepared for worst

I was going to post a poll question on this--what would public reaction be if Rove got off or Baby Bush pardoned him and others involved?

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[kevsand]

26. He didn't make it sound that way at all.

He made it sound like their testimony was vital to the indictments. He made it sound that way to the judges who agreed that Miller and Cooper should be compelled to testify. He made it sound that way to the judge who put Miller in jail. No judge would have ever gone along with that except for the severity of the suspected crime. Fitzgerald made clear that there were potentially very big indictments in the pipeline.

[dajoki]

25. here's a link to AF1 story

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002517.html

[BillZBubb]

5. Nah, I always have lowered expectations when the Repugs

are involved. Even so, I don't think the White House can come out of this clean. Someone there HAD to have leaked Plame's name. There is no way the press came up with that on their own. Somebody with a security clearance violated the law.

Rove and Libby might beat a criminal rap, but the public will figure out what the score is.

[saskatoon]

20. the public will figue out what the score is????

Oh. my sainted Aunt, don't you know that "the Public" consists of 90% dummies who look at anything other than what we are discussing here and most of them couldn't care less-just not interested in "that kind of stuff"

[MuseRider]

6. No.

It drives my defeatest husband crazy but I refuse to believe that truth and justice won't prevail. Actually, I can't deal with the thought that it won't so I constantly boost myself and fight fight fight. I can't think of a better way to live than to fight for what is right and just. Take a day off, meditate on what it means to lose and what it means to fight and then come back in. It is too hard to fight all of this daily against such odds so days off to refresh are often just what you might need. Just my small advice based on what I often have to do to keep going.

[The2ndWheel]

7. Scared? No.

I don't expect anything to happen. Granted, I've found I'm far more pessimistic about things than most that post here, so take it for what it's worth.

It is a good show though. The world is a stage afterall.

[applegrove]

8. Whatever happens they cannot claim the moral high ground. They

play dirty - and though we know that - more people know it.

[European Socialist]

10. agreed.

The criminal aspect is not as important as the as the loss of respect for this administration. Which reminds me why I was so upset with the stolen election of 2004--That the dems didn't make Bush pay a political price. Now is good time for the timid dems to remind the people that Bush was never elected or re-elected.

[applegrove]

11. Oh I don't agree. If you believe that they stole the election by machine

you believe you have no work to do to get out the 40% who stayed home to vote the next time.

For sure they stole hearts and minds to win the election. And packaged their product so that if you wanted to win the war on terror you had to stay away from Kerry. They stole the election by lying and attacking Kerry's strength. Same as nefarious always do.

But going "gay" is getting old. And now - some of the moderates may see the light - and see how this whole admin has been a package meant to please the elites. And so fewer people will fall for it.

For sure Gore won the count in 2000. But there is no definitive proof that any machine was played with.

We do however have much proof of their slurs and growing down of the population. That is why it is important that it comes to light that Rove & his pals will take on the family and attack anyone who gets in there way with the truth or speaks the truth.

I don't agree with the people who assume diebold was fooled with. Not at all.

But I do agree it is important that we now look at the nefarious in the WH and tie it all back to Cheney and his neocon desperation for a "new kind of war". Because there is layer upon layer of information coming out about that. Facts from people actually involved. And the lies that were told and the war planning that was delusional. And if a great deal of moderates now see this ..who didn't see it before - great. That will help in the next election. But you still have to work hard to get that 40% out. Most of them would vote dem.

We have work to do. And we will not attract the moderates who voted for Bush to our big Democratic tent by talking about election stealing that no authority or established source has picked up on or believes. There simply are not facts that the election votes were stolen in any other way than the usual vetting of felon lists by race or rule-making as dems approach the voting booth or all the other election shenanigans. Redistricting too. But to say the election was stolen at the voting booths will alienate the very people who are moderates. I know your frustration and your anger. But - really - it is the 'simple way out' to say that Bush didn't actually convince a slim majority of fools to vote for him. Evil is much more entrenched and dangerous than playing with voting machines. Sure nefarious types will play with your shit - but mostly what they play with are minds. And there is no credible evidence of diebold. Just research on statistics - which also show a 3% rise if AA voting for Repukes in Ohio and that Bush got not just the White Man vote - but lots of the White Women vote too. And that is where the battle should be: for the minds of voters and for the cohesion of the big Democratic Tent.

If - distinct factual information came out that some machine somewhere were toyed with - everyone would be jumping on it like they are jumping on the Plame affair now.

Just the facts jack.

[European Socialist]

23. Yes, Bush got half the votes- but they cheated big time.......

Those long lines for Black People were no accident. If rural Bush voters were supressed do you really think the GOP would be good sports about it. Would they worry about Moderates?

[wli]

24. don't forget electoral college gerrymandering

They shifted the electoral college to favor "red states" also. They can get by with thinner "margins of victory" every time they do this.

[barb162]

16. They always claim the moral high ground

[applegrove]

19. Now it will be all the more obvious to the moderates that it is a load

of bull.

Some people are truly kind and thoughtful and care about the people they are elected to serve. These people do not. They don't care about the laws. All they care about is bullying.

[GracieM]

9. My scariest moment....

I work in tourism so a lot of college students work with me during the summer. They don't know who Karl Rove is!

Quick poll of 7 employees.
6 Karl who?
1 I think I just saw something about him on the news

The 1 couldnt' say which party he was from, I think she thought Rove was attacking Bush for something.

Maybe in our next meeting we'll have to have a politics lesson.

[napi21]

12. Unfortunately, you're right!

The only reason my husband knows what's going on in politics is because I always have CNN on during dinner, or he hears me growling about yet another item of BS!

My son, who has his own home, only knows ANYTHING about politics because of the guys he works with!

I have no idea how to get the word out to the rest of America! Many don't bother with the news, newspaper, or ANY talk radio, and I think it especially is the younger people, 18-35. They have far more important things in their lives than what some idiot is doing in Wash. And NO, they don't realize how it affects them!

I guess signs along the roads (like the ones they post at election time) would work. At least they might generate some curiosity. The problem is, how do we afford them? I can print some from my computer, but all I have is an ink jet printer, and I'm sure that runs in the rain.

Anyone have any ideas?

[newblewtoo]

22. So true

I have experienced similar results with co workers. Some have heard of Rove but have no idea what he has done. Others just give a blank stare and say 'WHO?'.


I don't ask much anymore.....less depressing.

[ClassWarrior]

13. Just don't let your fear paralyze you into inaction... Ever Forward!!

We have the truth on our side. Ours are the BEST of American Values.

Never Give Up.

[laugle]

17. Hi Laura, I think the big difference with this

scandal is that this investigation will not be stopped! The neo-cons in the past have been successful at spinning or stopping other scandals. Be patient, Fitz would not hang his career on this if there was not good evidence. I think he has more than just he said and he said. Who would continue this for 2 years with no evidence. At the very least, polls are showing people do not trust Bush anymore and that can only help in the 2006 election.

Some good will come out of this!

18. Stop being dissapointed...

and start realizing that the system of government we have and the Democratic Party as a part of it are not going to put an end to this right-wing madness.

http://worldcantwait.org/

[nevergiveup]

21. Damage has already been done to this

administration and even if Rove doesn't spend time in the slammer someone high up leaked classified information and there will remain doubts and suspicions and the war goes on and on and on. Look at Chimpy's polling numbers on honesty. Once you lose the people's respect it is almost impossible to win it back. Cheer up....Chimpy is in trouble, big time.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

31. Amazing. Another stranger urging us to give up.

~yawn~

NGU.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

42. What does "he can't be touched" mean?

Of course it bothers me that these issues don't make more of an impression. BECAUSE HE** CAN BE TOUCHED. WE JUST NEED FIGHT HARDER. I'm tired of people who claim to be Progressives forfeiting all their power to superhumans who "can't be touched."

Winning is 90% attitude. Read Sun Tsu.

NGU.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

44. And in the meantime before '06... Watch the soaps?

Making the Bush** Administration pay for their crimes is step one in campaign '06.

Never Give Up.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

48. Which goes back to your assumption, that simply NO ONE is taking...

...these matters seriously.

NGU.

[bunny planet]

27. Read Frank Rich's column in the Sunday Times today.

Guaranteed you will feel better. I think they got very carried away feeling invincible back when they outed Plame (imperial hubris and all that) and they made some careless errors, didn't think they'd get caught, hell, didn't even think there would be a real investigation. I really think Fitzgerald has the goods on these criminals. The only thing I worry about is what they'll do next for 'distraction'.:scared:

[Laura PourMeADrink]

39. What that great. I just finished it. Very interesting thought about

that period of time when ashcroft was in charge and no one worried.

[snowbear]

28. Hey LauraPackYourBags,

We need to introduce you to "Kentuck" on here..

He's feeling paranoid tonight too! :hug:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Buck up guys! We're just getting started.. :toast: :party: :kick:

[ClassWarrior]

30. Amen larissa!

I :patriot: salute you.

NGU.

[mommajo65]

32. I WOULD LIKE TO

HOPE THAT IT WOULD ALL WORK OUT BUT THERE HAVE BEEN JUST SO MANY THINGS THAT MAKE YOUR EYES LIGHT UP AND YOUR HEART FEEL A BIT LIGHT, THINKING OH THIS COULD BE IT!!!! ONLY TO WATCH IT FADE TO OBLIVION OR BE BRUSHED OFF AS NO BIG DEAL:shrug:

[mommajo65]

33. BUT I GUESS I WILL ALWAYS HOPE

:hug:

[mommajo65]

35. IF VOICING AN OPINION

HERE ON DU IS BEING SELFISH THAN YES I GUESS I AM THANKS FOR THE WELCOME

[mommajo65]

36. AND IF YOU HAD BOTHERED TO READ MY SECOND

POST IT SAYS I WILL ALWAYS HOPE

[ClassWarrior]

34. So you let your own disappointment guide you instead of the truth?

Rather selfish, IMHO.

I, on the other hand, will Never Give Up.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

38. thanks for the encouragement -- Just read Frank Rich's column

in NYT. Brilliant !!!

[tsuki]

37. No, I shall not be disappointed. I can tell from many moderates

(swing voters) that this is the one black/white issue to come down the pike for them. Covert Officer Outing=Traitor. No ands, ifs or buts. Spin is not helping. To them it is a black/white issue. Bush must publically fire Rove, and Cheney must publically fire Scooter before they will be satisfied. But will they be totally satisfied? I don't think so.

The Conservatives are known for their one liners. This is a one liner.

[Lorien]

41. No. None of the other scandals ever got this far

the "investigation" of the failures on 9/11 was a complete sham and we all knew it. This investigation is not. Let's wait a month or so to see how this thing is really going to play out. In the mean time, keep those letters to the editor coming!

[spooky3]

45. Please check this out; you'll feel better:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1951726

[mvd]

47. I am feeling better since the media has actually..

covered the Rove scandal. And I also think Bush has lost trust. But I'm prepared for them to do anything to keep power, unless Democrats stand up to them.

[Cocoa]

49. I'm not giving up on "Phase 2"

Roberts made a pretty firm promise, and the dems are still working on holding him to it.